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tv   Real Money With Ali Velshi  Al Jazeera  February 10, 2015 10:30pm-11:01pm EST

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the fighting intensifies in ukraine, and civilians are running for their lives. [ gunfire ] the increase in finals comes as president obama mulls arming the ukranian army. has diplomacy run its course? i look at what ratcheting up the arms race in ukraine will do. americans are more connected to the internet than before from the fridges to their cars and fitness bracelets. are we sacrificing privacy and
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safety for convenience. i'm ali velshi, and this is "real money". [ ♪♪ ] fighting in eastern ukraine intensified on two fronts between government forces and pro-russian separatists of the the rebels claimed they surrounded the strategic town of debaltseve and they cut off government forces from rah highway nearby. al jazeera's reporter on the ground said he saw the ukranian troops in a state of disarray. fighting was to the south, near the town of mariupol. something the rebels deny. a volunteer battalion loyal says it captured several villages in the area and pushed forces back to forces with russia. fighting flared up when rebel forces launched on offensive in
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an attempt to cease mariupol and other areas. the fighting visited more depth and destruction. in all, 5300 people have been killed since violence probing out. a million people in ukraine fled their homes. the economy is in ruins, in the last week the french president travelled to kiev moscow and washington to press for peace. it is exposing a rift between merkel and president obama. the president considering $3 billion in military aid to the government. merkel and francis hollande plan to convene a summit in minsk, the canal bell awe ruse with the presidents and both ukraine and the west accuse the russians of helping the rebels on the ground a charge the russians deny. russian military officials concede that volunteers from
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russia crossed into eastern ukraine to fight on the side of rebels. charles stratford is on the ground. he filed this report showing how civilians are coping. >> nearly 70 people are lying here and more come every day. in this stuffy poorly lit basement under a block of flats, the families try their best to continue their lives. they fled their homes, shelling is intense. this home was damaged when a shell destroyed her neighbour's place. >> translation: we hope the talks about succeed in the hope for peace. last night shelling shattered all the windows on the fourth floor, destroying part of a building. last night children were tucking down. women crying. >> the volunteer group that brought them food no longer comes. in donetsk. an aid convoy arrived.
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>> this is the latest humanitarian aid convoy to a region suffering a humanitarian crisis it's hoped thousands will be helped in donetsk and beyond. this is the 13th delivery from russia since fighting begone. there are doubt whether previous convoys from bringing aid. russia denies it was supplying weapons. >> i have no idea where you could hide any weapons, you could touch the boxes and open them up making sure there is only food inside. >> the poor have no choice but to supplement the supplies. >> as the dull crunch of shelling is heard a few kilometres away the men fish out of necessity than for pleasure these days. vic for has three children and hasn't been paid his pension
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since july. >> translation: we didn't attack them they started the war. houses are destroyed, children kill. there's no gas in my home no pensions view supplies. i fish to boil myself a soup. i prefer to be outside. i can see the shells coming that way. >> reporter: residential areas continue to suffer on both sides of the conflict. around 600,000 ukrainians flet to other countries in the last year and the situation continues to deteriorate. night time is the worst. families with access to a basement will be under ground again. terrified and powerless to stop the bombs. >> those are gut wrenching scenes from donetsk, the kind of suffering convincing some people that it is time to arm
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government forces. my next guest is not convince the. the editor and publisher of "the nation", in an opinion peace she warned sending weapons to ukraine would spark an arms race and fuel violence on the ground and only a political solution will end the crisis. she joins me now. katrina, the meeting is going on in minsk, it is beginning of course, and will go on through the night in the morning. we are not dealing with equal partners here. ukrainians don't have the authority, what the russians are coming in with. >> let's first of all, look at the footage you showed. i will say as a nation we have been reporting on the catastrophe for many months and it's coming on to american screens, into awareness. >> what good purpose is descending weapons, does it provide. if it becomes a proxy war, leading both countries, all
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countries to a dangerous position as dangerous as the cuban missile crisis. it's the case that the media narrative in this country, the one-sided media narrative blamed this on russia. a box on all houses. russia the european union, the united states kiev - the war parties played a role in getting us to this catastrophe. there's no military solution. if there isn't a diplomatic solution you can see the fracturing. good for merkel and francis hollande. reports suggest that merkel and her meetingway president obama came away convinced that he was not for sending weapons, i think that's commendable on the president's part. too often you see the media pushes for action, action being war, when it's a false choice between doing nothing and war.
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>> you heard them. there are media reports that the white house is preparing legislation allowing them as a last resort to send weapons, this is a slippery slope. the danger of a proxy war is what we have. >> a new cold war. >> we have two nuclear superpowers coming close to each other, head to head fighting through others. >> that's right. proxy war. it didn't need to come to this and shouldn't. ukraine is more of a strategic interest for russia what strategic national interest does the united states have. do americans want to fight, send weapons. you followed the money, ukraine, it is estimated, needs $50 billion in short-term economic infusion to be a stable country. >> it has to come from europe. >> that too is a slippery slope. it's controversial. it should never have come to this. if ukraine is to emerge it
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needs to be a bridge between the west and russia. >> they have done a bad job of doing this. ukraine is not one country. it's not one, it is a great country, listen to the people in your footage. they are not russians but they want autonomy. >> we have those populations in latvia estonia and bulgaria. >> there are people who wrote a book sale of the century. >> the annexation of russia was a violation. there has been an existential threat false narrative that crimea and then russia is going to take all these other lawyers. >> latvia lithuania all were part of russia. >> history. the core problem is n.a.t.o.
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expansion, that george ca said was a fate -- george ca said what is a fateful area. it was perceived as not a sorority or fraternity but a military organization. the parameters negotiated settlement in minsk, and have been on the table for months. it includes no nato expansions. >> do you believe they'll get a deal in minsk? >> it will be tough, but the alternative is disaster. if you go back to the soviet union, so were the countries, the russian foreign ministry wants to extend the umbrella. ukraine is an existential problem. i go to russia i go for 35 years, the upper marriage
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gorbachev's wife was ukranian. the baltics go. what stake does russia have. they have economic problems. i would say the real domestic problem is more cold war, less space for optimism. more choouf n. >>. >> it's a problem. if we continue to send weapons, it will be a proxy warheading to a cold car. >> you know the story. i don't look at this. same thing - should have been a political solution. the fact is every time we don't make it we say let's let an aggressor come to a political solution we look back saying "we should a done something else. >> what is happening in syria is a humanitarian matter. if the president hadn't acted on dismantling chemical weapons,
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i.s.i.s. may have chemical weapons, i believe one must exhaust alternatives before war. >> is there a line where you stop and say we have exhausted alternatives and now the upper guy has the other hand? >> we are not there yet. >> editor and publisher of "the nation", coming up. we continue the debate. we hear from a fierce critic of vladimir putin, banned were russia and later, internet security. it's supposed to make our lives faster and easier but is it making it less safe. at 7:00, a thorough wrapup of the day's events. then at 8:00, john seigenthaler digs deeper into the stories of the day. and at 9:00, get a global perspective on the news. weeknights, on al jazeera america .
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you heard the editor of "the
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nation" argue against sending arms to ukraine, our theft guest has been giving her view a member of the ukranian parliament with strong ties. she's personae non grata, landing on a list of canadians banned from travelling to russia in retaliation for canada's sanctions on the ukraine. she's a long-time kremlin watch watcher from soviet communism to oligarch communism which she wrote about. thank you for being back with us. i sum your position is we need to take a stronger view on how to support ukraine, does that go as far ag arming them. >> i think it's a good thing that president obama and others
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have but arming ukraine on the table. we are in a crucial moment. the minsk talks are happening. i think it's important to be skeptical and hopeful. maybe this will be the off-ramp. a war is happening. it's not about preventing a war from happening. this is about a potential war. angela merkel over the weekend said something important. she said "i'm skeptical about whether vladimir putin could do a deal i'd never gore myself if i didn't try. at this moment this is not the moment this instant that we are talking, it's not the moment for anyone to take new steps, it's a moment to hope the talks go well. >> you are a student of history, you look at everything. we get narrow you look at it. you go to $50,000 feet and look at it historically.
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how does it play out, if there's an idea of arming ukrainia. does it end, does russia say "we didn't realise the guys would push back. >> first of all, let's hope the minsk talks succeed and that there is a ceasefire. the ukrainians want the ceasefire. this is a country that is trying to reform. and they are fighting the war. let's hope it works. having said that i think the way that president obama framed the conflict as an issue of if it doesn't work we have to continually raise the softs for russia -- cost for russia making it too costly that is right. i think that you know the paradigm which says we dare not
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provoke russia is absolutely wrong. we have to understand that it began with russian aggression. this began with russia creating the rules that governed europe. since the world war ii which is that you can't change borders by force. there's another reason it's egregious. in 1994 ukraine voluntarily gave up a nuclear weapon. there was an agreement in exchange that sovereignty was guaranteed. >> nuclear weapons is on the table. >> the issue is it's the elephant in the room. how can it be pushed beforing it grose wrong. at what point are you convinced that everyone says this is not about nuclear weapons, no one is touching that. >> i think you are right to point to the gravity of the
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situation, that's why people have to be careful about escalating the conflict. seeking a peaceful solution when it seems there's a slimmest chance is correct. having said that i think it's important look at this with eyes wide open and appreciate that what we see since last march is a steady russian escalation of the crisis and a russian breaking of their own word. we have an annexation of crimea and the push of russia into ukraine. and... >> in a recent article you wrote about the degree to which the russian foreign minister said it will protect its people in latvia and estonia. the other point that you made that is clear, is that this has a lot to do with russian
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domestic politics and vladimir putin staying in power. reason doesn't seem to play as central role as it should. >> you have raised a lot of great points. let me take two. the first is raising yest and latvia -- estonia and latvia. this is not about ukraine, it's about russia. in some ways it began with georgia in 2008. we we in the west have to take on board the upprevent reality that we are dealing with a different russia bend on rewriting security rules, we have to find a way of containing it. my fear about the potential nightmare scenarios that i think we can't rule out is that we
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could see if wusha in whatever way is not stop d in ukraine have could move on the baltic states. >> thank you the internet of things promises to connect everything in our lives, that opens the door to cyber criminals. president obama is creating a new agency. will that do anything? stick around.
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another day, and more harks. more news of -- hacks. more news of companies being hack said. today was hacked last thanksgiving. delta airlines said it was compromised, obscene material was put on it they took control of it. president obama made cyber security a top priority following a against sony. he is doing what past administrations have done create a new agency this one to monitor cyber threats. science and technology correspondent jake ward joins us from san francisco. a lot of people are calling for the agency or a sign are tsar. is this the right thing and will it help. i ask you this because the stuff dealt with is inquestion shall, someone -- inconsequential.
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someone took control and said nasty things but other harks are soars. >> that's right. it's an effort to get to the hacking where it happens. there are four agencies dealing with hacking. all of them deal with hacking. this is the first organization to connect with the companies. that's where we see the front line of the cyber war. it's not just you know amateurs trying to be frustrating and annoying and getting attention. these are state okayses of signer warfare, and it's hitting the private companies, it's never an agency. it dealt with the companies. >> where is the brain trust. is it in private companies, are they further ahead or in the government agencies like that that spend a lot of time trying to be ahead of the hackers.
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it has got to be the private company, because it's - you can't - this has been - you cannot pay people enough money or employ them within the walls to counter an untold tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands getting into hacking for kicks or money, the incentive structure doesn't line up. private companies have the best hope they stand the most to lose. if you throw money behind it that's where people get the incentives, it's private companies. >> cisco will lorks and have the most to gain by more being kicted. and they got into an internet of things, the idea that everyone who is going to have a phone, has one. i had a chance to sit with
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conchim bers the ce -- john chambers, the c.e.o. when i was in daffo i want you to have a listen. >> the number of cyber attacks or employee insider company that do harm to the company will go up. this is where tpcompanies have to come together from the beta centers to clouds secure. our goal is to make it happen. >> do you have sense that the world can protect itself against that scale of attack. the issue is whether or not the terror we talk about here there's a lot of forums about cyber, they can affect more people than small bands of terrorists. >> they can have a market that is global supply chain that is global. so can the bad guys that's important. the only way you can defend this
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is the oshing tech tur. is there any such thing as a secure data center. no we think we can make it safe. that's the goal. >> john chambers, c.e.o. of cisco, he was there when the internet was in its infancy. one part of me leaves the idea that bridges and pipe lines will warn you that they'll be damaged and things will go wrong. there's a danger. has anyone quantified the danger of everything connected to the internet? >> people are starting to wrap their minds around it. chambers makes the point that you know there's no such thing as a secure data center. this is a guy in the business for a long time. to have a specialist admitting it will be a leaky boat. thinking about all the cops. the auto industry is one of
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these that stands to benefit from the internet of things. incredible things you can do connecting 50 to 80 sensors built in. those companies are going to be in charge of making sure stuff doesn't get hacked. those are companies with no experience. a report coming out, the senator, casually pulled about 20 different automakers about the susceptibility to hacking. there was an industry-wide administration that they'll have no idea. no ability to detect it. we are talking about all the industries diving into the sense of business. economies of scale. they have no idea how they'll deal with getting hacked. we have not seen the full creative, dark creativity of hackers. when we do who knows how we'll deal with that. >> interesting conversation. great to have it with you.
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that is the show for today. i'm ali velshi thank you for joining us. pledging justice - the white house promises retribution for the death of kayla muller. >> i.s.i.l. regardless of her death, is responsible for a. >> a young aide worker taken hostage americans flock to watch the big-screen block buster "an american sniper", chris