saturday's been counseled amid the violence country's election commission has appealed for calm as ballot papers are still being counted two white south african men have been sentenced to talk of twenty five years in prison after they were found guilty of trying to force a black man into a coffin and threatening to burn him alive feel martin's jackson and with his in were convicted of attempted murder assault and kidnapping over pleaded not guilty claiming they only intended to scare victim little sure in last year's incident. brindisi become the first country to withdraw from the international criminal court takes effect on friday a year after it notified the united nations of its intention to leave follows accusations that the court focuses too much on africa the i.c.c. says the withdrawal doesn't affect ongoing court proceedings i mean mars government one alive food aid into a kind state after denying access to aid agencies for two months un's world food program says malnutrition rates in the state are already above emergency level for

access was blocked the agency had been providing aid to about one hundred ten thousand range of muslims in the region there's a hard headline sure to date so i'll be back in about twenty five minutes time with a full hour of news stay with al-jazeera though in the meantime it's inside story as always thanks for company. emotions are high in barcelona and. intense political drama as heavily a pushes for independence but in the region afford to go it alone what are the

economic costs of a split from spain and why is the european union so-called to the idea this is inside story. hello and welcome i'm patty kahane events are moving quickly in both madrid and barcelona the political situation has been confusing but this much is certain catalonia is dry for independence has already had an impact on the region's economy tourism has dropped off sharply more businesses are moving their head offices out of the area very and political instability and financial uncertainty and of catalonia does eventually become independent the costs could be huge we begin with al-jazeera andersen's who's in barcelona. here in the regional parliament in

barcelona with much emphasis on the political crisis and the risks of social unrest many businesses right across the region are getting worried that there may be neglect on the economy with political developments the figures don't read well sixteen hundred companies have moved their registrations out of catalonia since october and it doesn't stop there the banks are following suit the economic growth outlook for the whole of the country has been reviewed downwards for spain for twenty eighteen because of social unrest in this region and also there are reports that the tourist industry is slumping since the referendum took place there is one estimate from one tourism agency that the figures are fifteen percent down just to give you an idea a twenty percent decline in the tourism industry would really hurt more than a billion euros would be lost if that took place and so everyone is now really

concerned about whether or not the e.u. position could actually damage things even more if they lose the euro here that will be a colossal blow that is we understand some form of think tank in place of economists looking at the whole regional picture in terms of what happens in secession but many businesses say hard times are going to be ahead not just across the political divide in the security divide but particularly with the economy. so let's bring in our guests in brussels we have peter clarke the head of the brussels office of open you're up in barcelona we have sonia and a lecturer at the university of barcelona and in dublin via skype michael keating professor of the university of aberdeen and the author of the book the independence of scotland welcome to you all sonia i want to start with you since you're there in the heart of it we just heard those statistics anderson and they sound terrifying

have you seen the impact on the ground is the economy suffering. it is that's what it looks like we're just saying many m.p.'s already living holliman in a run away fast it was for the. parties that have left the parliament room which are the opposition party is thought there are many official cars coming in very fast and it seems they are going to because. m.p.'s have voted in favor to get away from here as many are fearing spanish police could and. parliament. peter let me ask you this we know that it would cost catalonia if they took this step and tried to succeed for a secede from spain what would the impact be on spain and broader europe of course on the short end of the struction zora very costly you could make a case that a an independent gets

a loan you could very well survive it's bigger than many member states of course more competition in taxation in europe in regulation in the long term is a good thing but of course a very important condition for independence and secession to be an economic success is that it happened species fully and that's not clear at all to moment unfortunately it looks like both sides are books and so are books themselves in into more extremist positions and that's very worrying frankly michael i wanted to ask you this because there was one study by the dutch being i n g that the financial impacts of this movement if it is successful would far eclipse even the dire forecast we're hearing on breck's it do you you studied these independents movements are they that costly. it depends exactly what policies are going to be

followed and i actually don't agree that competition and regulation would be a good thing there's a tendency for independent. stations well force general standards now the problem with the guidelines that you mention is not. public. trust with a situation where there was no more or less what kind of economic independence. and of course it's entirely keeping the european and spanish markets in the short term of course. there is a cost because the destruction of farms are already. sonia i want to get back to you because you are there on the ground the developments are moving very quickly obviously is there a palpable fear there about what's happening and what could happen. i think the fear is here and it's actually quite rational. maybe not fearful.

sorry for these retarded again but fear for the unknown for want will happen when you begin. with all of the states allowance which is hospice in this case here everything is uncertain and no one knows what is going to happen it's very different from the scottish case where cameron said ok i would like you to stay bought i want to hear your claim and i will follow. my friend we haven't had that case here has brought into a very traumatic situation where now. whatever it happens it will be very negative at least in the short term or that's how it looks like i'm going to. go ahead sorry. but elements for mr thought just i would say more the scared are worried for the uncertain that's my china my impression that list. and i want to ask all of you

to weigh in on this because if you look at this statistics if you look at what catalonia would have to go through to actually become its own country i mean it's dat is a norm is it needs to get loans from spain it doesn't have to like its own air traffic control system border controls it wouldn't have any sort of trading treaties so do you think that all of you please weigh in on this first we're going to go to peter peter do the people understand what's. the potential cost here of course to to create your own state it takes in these a long time you need to go through many procedures but you know have seen this in europe in the last twenty thirty years take for example slovakia which was so poorer than the czech republic indeed in the first few years of slovakian independence politicians there have followed the left wing polities policies but

eventually the populations have voted in free market liberals and a half. agreed that there should be a flat tax and this was one of the recipes which helped slovakia to grow enormously they have basically done during that period by passed all their neighbors so i think smaller countries or forced to eventually adopt economic policies that promotes competitiveness there is no alternative for them whereas bigger countries can sort of afford to have big redistributive bureaucratic governments in place no again the big condition is that happens that everything happens peacefully so indeed if spain does not agree with cut through an independent risk when there's a major challenges ahead ok michael quickly to you if you could just your thoughts on the. well you would be essential for catalonia if you're made within the

european single market that's what makes independence why both are small kind of trees if it were agreed by spain the catalonia could become independent then it could stay in europe riposte spain will not agree to the grain is totally opposed to that and therefore we end up in their kind of limbo of catalonia could end up declaring itself and then spain but not enjoying complete access to the european market so it's so new to you is that the biggest fear right there because could you wake up tomorrow and not be a citizen of spain or the you. i thank the fans are all to their. with just to be aware i mean maybe not those of us where can and who have followed. the much of the society seem to have just been aware of potential economic effects the past two weeks when we've begun to see all these companies

move in find to all this punish it is and also copy copy tells that many banks are claiming that their clients are requesting their capitals to be moved to. the basis so people are just beginning to understand all the potential effects of unilateral succession and you know i look at it as you when you're all across europe but catalonia they're not alone in this so this isn't just about this region this country the catalans and of course not alone in their desire to rewrite the map of europe and that perhaps perhaps explains why the european union refuses to get involved a referendum on scottish independence narrowly failed in twenty fourteen and there are long standing independence claims in belgium while lonia region and on the island of corsica which is part of france but the list of places in europe with separatist movements is actually much longer and the e.u. has consistently kept its distance peter let me go to you first the european union

did not get involved they say there they're not in the position to negotiate if the european union cannot be more of an effective force in these sorts of disputes and we've just seen these disputes are all over europe what is the future of the e.u. why have the e.u. i think it is very why use you not to get involved here this is very sensitive this is political and the european union is not a political entity whatever mr you may wish. you is fundamentally a very thick a body that is very good in making sure that countries reduce barriers to treat it's very good in that it should focus on that every time it gets involved in politics things go wrong you know that said i don't think it would be about id for the leaders of european governments to express their opinion and indeed. prime

minister has been very outspoken that there should be dialogue whatever happens with catalonia and spain should should have a dialogue this should not be. in any way so new you made a face there looks like you want to respond to that but i technically agree with peter but what i tell my students is one thing is to be realistic which means the european union is the union of states and therefore they are going to trying to seek the benefit of all the states so it is quite logical that from a rational perspective but they are not going to support this assertion as almost every european country has a region and as you just mentioned that could potentially follow our plan not said it is also true that europe is becoming much bigger project that only the economic climate and that's what they want citizens to believe so many of us are believing video it's more and we're said that also with the refugee crisis where many of us

felt safe from the european union's behavior so many other to feel very european are claiming maybe not want to take positions but at least enforce dialogue somehow or to really ask the spanish government to be more open and flexible because even if you just want to go through the legal and very very very strict structure you do have a problem here that it's not going to be solved just by imposing or imposing a police force and because of this. pendens that peter was just mentioning a conflict. as a conflict for the whole europe so i do think that somehow maybe the commission of the pond him and or someone in europe should do something about it and at least. a place where both parties could feel comfortable to speak and to trying to find common points for

a solution because otherwise this is just going to go and get protected and stay there for a long time michael let me head over to you are we are do you think the european leaders are looking at this we just showed the map it is everywhere this is will not be the last one our leaders learning a lesson if they look at the different approaches between let's say the prime minister of the u.k. versus how the prime minister of spain has responded to this. it is not everywhere there are two significant separatist movements in europe at risk auckland and at the lower that there aren't any other ones there are a thomas movement in italy in belgium looking for more self government within the state but there's nowhere else in europe where independent support is almost forty percent so let's not exaggerate this clearly there was a difference in scotland because it's long been recognised that united kingdom is a union of nation if the british government has been prepared to consider secession

in the case of northern ireland and in the case of scotland that's partly a matter of the constitution which is much more relaxed in the u.k. than this case of spain but it's also an understanding of the nature of the state and that's where the european union it really hasn't provided a space for these movements are looking for more autonomy but don't want independence and that is where catalonia is the sarah three b. they weren't given that special status and so a large section not a majority but a lot of secular catalans move towards independence so millions gone to scotland is going to the opportunity to remain connected with the european project they want to separate from the united kingdom the problem at the moment is the united kingdom is pulling them out of europe so those there are problems on both sides in both cases here so peter let me ask you some point does the potential cost start to change the direction of these negotiations i'm not talking this is certainly between the the people on the street i'm talking about the leadership of from both

madrid and barcelona what does it take for them to say enough with this going back and forth and looking tough let's figure out how to how this ends how does what does it take to get there. well it looks like the next step is spain will indeed today declare that the autonomy of catalonia is to a certain degree despite suspended that there have to be new elections within six months and as i understand it. the spanish government is looking into how many people they can actually arrest and they only arrest the prime minister of qatar and the ministers there also burke rats only the leadership of the police or other police so the very dangerous development is going on because of course some of the more heated elements in catalonia independence movement may well not accept

this so i think this is this is very worrying i would say the obvious compromise would be that both sides of course go to the table that also the catalans. stressed that nothing is off the table that they are willing to discuss all their options down in the pendants and then the obvious compromise is that every region in spain receive the same tax powers that the basques already half go actually much further than what they've got to learn stuff and there's no reason why other spanish regions should also not get these tax power so i would think this is the most clean and reasonable compromise but i'm not sure how many people in spain would and in cuts alone you're by the way would agree with sonia do you think that's even really possible. agreeing with this time i think the biggest problem of the because difficulty we're saying as in any conflict is that both. chopped between not only the opposite party but inside the party this past week which.

was receiving a huge pressure from the most radical sectors. and the spanish society which were claiming to enforce suspension in a very harsh way and to be very strong against. and about taking over the control and at the same time we've seen mr puts them on the council and president also being chopped into those here who are. some people inside his party saying please because way to do it a bit tried to find a negotiated way so i think this is just not exceptional from catalonia as in any conflict that we see the difficult moment for many. whether to. be opposition or to actually even face opposition in his own sector and very complex

for them to manage and to do it in a peaceful way now what peter was saying is absolutely right. we are now going to go ahead with taking over control it's the most probable thing again my biggest worry is holism. going to react because we're not ready to be taken over i'm afraid michael i want to ask you this because we've seen for example in the united states the rise of the far right. donald trump were seen movements to secede as you mentioned but that's been debated in scotland obviously. catalonia does this continue no. in europe if you think you're going to have problem yes you know political parties are great political alignment the great. thing about this confrontation between. governments is these are

both very weak governments very weak leaders. gone through really terrible corruption scandals and the politicians are discredited and they're using both sides as a means of shoring up their support finding a negotiated solution well the most difficult but i want to ask all three of you if i could longer term or how does this impact the european union regardless of how it turns out whether they can actually sit down and negotiate or we see police and the rest move in so what is the long term impact on the european union so you know let me start with you on that. i just think your opinion and the impact could just be if this gets somehow. finished even if it's in a bad situation but somehow finished but if it's being present and we keep having all this international media attention it could become something. down

which somehow the european union in terms of intent. and even a comically i'm going to go ahead with and like to hear what he has to say about a good point peter to you. so i think indeed this shows that people in europe really want more flexibility there's all of europe more demand for. basically having more control over one's own fate i would say that's why we see all this populist movement in europe ordered from the left or the right this is what they sort of having common they feel they're losing control over their own fate and indeed also the cuttle on the scottish independence movements they of course have always existed but in the last ten years they have become much more popular and again if we wonder how to deal with that i think

we have to look at switzerland cicerone as a country where there's a lot of decentralization we're the decentralized entities the continents can decide it's over taxation policy to much larger extent than was the case elsewhere so and this really helps to keep switzerland together nobody in switzerland wants to wants to sort of secede from the country because the country allows a lot of flexibility people are generally happy with how swiss run this so if the e.u. is wondering how can we become more stable they have to look at switzerland and if spain is wondering how can we become more stable they have to again also look at what the swiss have done michael last question the show is do you do you have any hope that these leaders would give up some of that all important power throughout europe mean leaders don't tend to happily give up what they control. well europe is all about cooling sovereignty it's not about so coordinating the nation state it's

about tackling problems and common the same time you get in a process of decentralization when so states are being transformed and that's worked very well but if the european leaders simply back the most intransigent elements of the spanish government that doesn't do europe a lot of credit it gives the impression that you know there is taking a very rigid position as it has almost guaranteed in other kinds of issues and that could we can support for the european project in the long run it was insensitive so these kinds of demands for more local control over people's affairs this has been unfair informant i want to thank my guest peter clottey sonya and bowles and michael keating very interesting times and we shall see what happens there he also looks for joining us and thank you for watching you can see this program again any time by visiting our website al-jazeera dot com and for further discussion go to our facebook page that's facebook dot com forward slash a.j.

inside story you can also join the conversation on twitter our handle is at a.j. inside story for me pattie callie and the whole team bye for now. provoking debate the corporate tax have not hurt job growth from the barack obama that what went on in georgia that i know it's not true tackling the tough issues restrictions on media freedom arbitrary killings torture maybe i'm giving the world didn't give me crap challenging the established line every single one of the three

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