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tv   The Stream 2019 Ep 28  Al Jazeera  February 19, 2019 11:32am-12:00pm +03

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japanese carmaker honda says it will close its only british factory within two years shut down of the plant in swindon will result in three thousand five hundred job losses the move is seen as another blow to britain's cami king industry before bracks it earlier this month nathan nissan cancelled plans to build new vehicles in the u.k. and john landrover and ford announced job cuts in europe and a chinese delegation is arriving in washington for a new round of talks in the latest attempt to resolve a trade war it follows last weeks ago in beijing which ended without a deal but negotiators say some progress has been made to reach an agreement before trump spazz on increasing types on chinese goods expires next month the stream is next. person one of the main beneficiaries is that the case listen. that's not
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exactly a point we meet with global newsmakers and talk about the stories that matter. ok and you are in the stream today india trade privacy for protection i'm really could be critics say a government plan to curb the spread of misinformation online could lead to censorship let us know what you think tweet your comments or leave them in the chat and we'll do our best in through them in our conversation. he started his whatsapp group. through you know i was always. time to. send everything. sharing nords. triangle. everything happens on the ground not just maybe the odd man but he's
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never played one. except to do. are you really sure that this is true. for. you soon to explain that such mess just could create tension and dark people against each other i mean it's dangerous please don't do this again here or those i love to move you from the. go a little bit so that's an advertisement produced by the world's biggest messaging perform whatsapp encouraging indians to share joy rumors india's government wants to crack down on the spread of alleged faith in news online proposing new regulations critics say are an affront to free expression and prevent see the rules would force tech companies like whatsapp to remove unlawful content or respect would also require these companies to provide government agencies with a backdoor access to their services or go what's up or resisted pressure to provide access to its own corruption the company has deleted millions of accounts to curb
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the spread of potentially lethal misinformation still civil liberties advocates remain skeptical of the proposal suggesting a slippery slope toward greater censorship especially ahead of india's election joining us from delhi india to explore the proposal and its possibilities earlier tucker is a technology and politics reporter for quartz india. is a lawyer and the executive director at the internet freedom foundation burgess milou is the head of public policy and policy communications at share chat that's one of india's largest social media platforms and with us on set we have certain land to may the research itself age in politics and business as a research fellow at the american enterprise institute that's a washington d.c. based think tank and everybody good to have you on the street i want to show our viewers what rumors can do on whatsapp in india have a look here at new york times headline rumors on what's app to mob attacks in india
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killing seven that might look like a freak occurrence but have a look at this from the quint lynchings due to what's. claim one thousand lives in two months squatting down to another story five lynched over child lifting rumors another story three lynchings in twenty four hours another story forty two forty year old woman beaten to death a nervous story to use of what's up we're missing this sam two killed trans women killed in hyderabad so many stories there linking the killings to what's up as you report on tech in india what is it like to see one of these rumors what kind of incident whatsapp message would you have to see to then go out and kill somebody . sure so you know last summer was really big for bob cinching that many believe were spurred by rumors that were spread on
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what's at and a lot of these rumors took the form of as you mentioned child lifting rumors so what what those were were messages that were forwarded among communities on whatsapp often with with video components that claimed that child kidnappers were roaming around in the community and looking to kidnap kidnap and harm children then and at one point that those rumors were linked with a video that was actually from a completely different country and that was a truncated video that actually omitted the end and so it made it look like it was a video of a child getting getting taken away and these rumors proliferated among communities and people got really panicky and scared about them and and target ended up targeting people who they perceived as fitting the description of these child
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kidnappers and last summer i believe over two dozen people were killed in mob lynchings not all of them were child kidnapping rumors but that was that was a predominant was predominant type of rumor that called killings and what you're telling us aria is almost reiterated here in a video comment that we got from the district police chief of us of affection i'm telling on a state her name is remote registrar e. and she talks to us about the first time she began to start noticing social media rumors that were spreading and she told us a story about having a meeting with one of her police officers who talks about what he saw that was so unusual here's what she told the story. he saw people sleeping inside i'm not religious freaks me out. to see someone that i'm extending oh and even. especially the ones who live in our villages sleeping. so i have to go
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back and find out what the stroke he came out and what he'd powerless and he told me that these events and since the sudden legals and waste messages evening or what groups and these views of anybody i think i'm one of the district that gets gigantic. so they receive the videos protests and then they went on the lookout for anyone in the town that they didn't recognize you can just see how this begins to start then we have that surprise you don't really i think it's. the flag of the. what's up it's problematic because. in india law and order's generally sometimes you know aren't as quick to record could be another rescue countries and so the idea of lynching was quite common people do look to him to take care of you know the law and don't answer if someone steals i'm not buying foreign currencies people who got to go and beat him up. so connecting it with
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what's up is a bit of it problematic but yes it has become a considerable problem for the law enforcement officials are going to have because there's been a spurt of content reviews that have not been shocking and they're going to what is needed from other countries are what are become problematical folks in india i want to show you this headline from the a.f.p. this is from last year stop step by fake news social media field lynch and shock india. i'm going to play you a little clip from a lady who knows the people who actually killed and it describes what happened to them the village small wilting bamboo sticks machetes of routs friends are driving back from a day in the country two innocent people killed due to something that was spent on whatsapp what does the friend of the people who were killed have to say about what could be done how innocent. the other hand yes we will see how this is spreading through technology and what and it's
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a whatsapp message and people and people there don't even give us give it a second thought it's news for them and they believe in it so. that is happening but. we cannot. we cannot not promote technology because this is happening she is sitting out that this is somebody who is a grieving but she also says you can't stop technology in order to fix this problem but the government are looking at maybe we need to regulate the platforms rather than do anything else but right on this whole thing is a bit of a red herring i have read what's happening over here you know this is a classic case of not it's not shooting the messenger shooting the messaging app and if you think about the sort of larger issue of the push the problem is this india is a country with nineteenth century literacy rates trying to cope with the twenty first century technology that's what's happening over here right why is this not happening in all the scores of other countries where whatsapp operates this is not
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happening in brazil this is not happening in even in indonesia this is not happening in other places it's been happening in india because a lot of people have come online and a lot of people have instantly turned to smartphones i'm not blaming these people for being on educated you know they're not sure what they get they get something on what they take it as news and what you have from the government side is this desire to shift the blame because if you look at the issue more closely this is a failure of governance one of the cops doing. right while these things are happening elsewhere and so this idea of displacing the blame moving it from the administration or if you want to take a longer view moving it from the educational system and others other issues that india hasn't dealt with successfully over decades and so i think this is really you know i wrote a piece in the wall street journal and the headline was one that gets a bum rap and i think that and that's really how i feel about this it's interesting i thought that i thought you had lined up i'll go to you with this apart but i put
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that headline up because you mention that whatsapp gets a bad rap you can see it there will tweet it out to our audience and people online on you tube right now are also saying yes education is what should be focused on but there is someone here who says something a little differently this is the same hoax player that's his hand and he says yes these changes are much needed and they can bring down the range of spreading them in misinformation a lot now the whatsapp restriction to five for adding and adding a label that says it's forwarded are good initiatives that people need to be told and strong and large words to forward messages they are unsure of apart your take so i think i would just disagree with that because we are looking at social media from a very restrictive standpoint looking from the picture we're looking at from a perspective. from a very secure standpoint. that we can remember. is
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online right now possibly through a smart. what. using it for all kinds of human activity so they talk to their friends they get in touch with their family they conduct their business and it's something which is much larger so if you only see it from the perspective of all the violence which is being called right now and we are commuting that. is actually a failure of law enforcement. quite clearly to use. seeing the benefit of the technology basically putting a big warning sticker on it that we have you need to be inherently injurious to it's used on the t.v. is that a product changes which i made all the beadle to be they didn't need to be gauged as to what amount all public benefit did is valid and so if you just make it much you know it all in general not actually be i think just to add to what i plan to
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think the other problem is not just lynchings whatsoever is also useful you know readers other kinds of problem i think. the government is grappling with the fact that child porn is now being spread on the planet and there's no way for the government to figure out who's spreading it. there are tons of groups today that the government is trying to figure out read this junk one is coming from who's posting it and platforms like what's up and giving safe haven to these folks you know spread problematic content oh that's so that is a need but its ability to ensure that come into print read this is coming from you know i actually that's really the heart of the issue and i'm damn glad the book is for is that because you know yes wasat is designed to be private. so once you allow what the government says it wants whatsapp seasons to be what's app right i have friends who are indian politicians who will without want to have a conversation with them once they have let's speak on whatsapp because i know that they're not being able to listen in so once you do this you've essentially
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destroyed what makes what's up what's up and that's what i think that's what makes this such an enormous decision is your ability to have a private conversation trumping. the use of whatsapp to spread rumors well what's more important here so in my view the what the government is proposing is going too far. the other thing that we have not really touched upon over here which you know goes beyond the sort of a limited issue of lynchings is the you know the larger issue of fake news and rumors and things and in many cases the people who are you know doing that are associated with political parties including with india's ruling party so it's very very complicated and under you know against this backdrop if you suddenly allow a very heavy handed government to get in and decide and break the privacy of what i think this has many implications that have not to. be one more thing that you need to talk about is it's not just what we look at going to really sort of forms that
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are similar to work. it's a little problematic for me to work for persons everything has to be. how do you are you on about forms where the government can order the signal that. it's not just what's right and what's up shouldn't be getting that or look. or this kind of problematic that's pretty well. i'm glad you said that because someone on you tube agrees with you all social media is spreading fake news not only on whatsapp and i think what they mean there is that it is possible to spread quote unquote fake news on lots of different platforms so if someone else on you tube picks up on something that you mentioned saddam and impress. says the government should not have any access whatsoever to encrypted secure and private messages of indians and less warranted by a legitimate quarter as a last measure so someone who also agrees that this is going just a bit too far fetched i want i want to pay for not. knowing you've got headline.
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is that the government says. they want to break and the government has said we want to build on the ground isn't any content shared on these platforms if the government has a legitimate court order it can go back to what's up and who share. the water the government is not saying i want to break into your encryption they're ok with encryption they're saying we want to figure out who was sort of sort of just as a lawyer but just as a lawyer just jump into the thing that india does not have any data protection of and we don't have any meaningful safe gods which can be enforced there's no judicial oversight for us to say and technical protection which is and to enter. encryption which is employed to create what is quite often the only meaningful recourse today ensuring that users through the see all data protection debate so
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it's a technical standard because the law is absent last time you know and even the data protection law which has been posed doesn't have any gods the government is dragging its feet over it and it's most likely it will do it merges also you know but you and i both know that once you and i allow this in indiana all it's going to mean is that the cops are going to come after you for sharing some you know dopey cartoon of the prime minister that they don't like so let's not sort of you know get all high minded and say they don't this is going to be used in a very limited way in the most extreme circumstances that's not what's going to happen and we both know that i don't think it's going to happen on a you know i don't even really like let us make sorry i said i want to put something that was not actually said about the proposed changes but you go first go ahead. oh sure i was going to say that i think that what's a gun and raised is a big concern and especially considering the fact that so much political campaigning actually happens via whatsapp i think the thought of the government having much tighter control of it is worrying for the integrity of elections as
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well because what chance do opposition parties have if the government and the ruling party had the inability to have a much tighter control over the kind of speech that's being shared over what's happened if it's not truly private anymore i mean just put a tech reporter this is what sap spokesman he said this every twelve twenty nineteen what is contemplated by the rules is not possible today given the and and encryption that we provide and it would require us to reach all contact whatsapp leading us to a different product one that would be fundamentally not private. yeah so what that has been pushing back pretty strongly against the entire gov indian government's attempts to institute some sort of traceability which has been happening mostly since last summer when a lot of the mob lynchings were reported and i think that i think that what steps
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concern is is that they would have to completely restructure the way that their product is designed and they feel that it wouldn't be fair to their users who have been in short a private way of communicating and i i do think that. i do think that this is definitely something to weigh whether the importance of private communication is something that we want to weigh higher then. then ensuring the traceability of and making sure the government maybe has more guys who'll to trace fake news or other types of content that they might deem objectionable or not i think. i think i think that it's fair that the government. is trying to do something on create news and not these problems that sort of be have up in india because there is a lot of pressure on the on the government to take some kind of action but the
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question is is the government or at least. intentionally a source to to begin crichton or is the question that the government wants to try and figure out how do we create some kind of rules that rican access who's pushing this kind of clamping down on maybe i'll tell you that it's ok for the government to become big loans which is a possibility but i'm not sure what i'm just point out is that i mean i think art of this conversation is detached from reality fake news the biggest blow of error phase news in india is a site called postcard news right they've put out p. or fabricated garbage to target minorities and other groups and the prime minister follows the founder of postcard news now i recognize that you work for a company and these are not things that you can see as bluntly as i can but can we be a little bit real about this debate you know. so you don't want that mad house that is being i yell about this debate i'm going to because there is a hypothetical question put out there i'll answer here with this tweet this i shake
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with eem who says the solution to misinformation is more information rather than no information as clampdown is only aimed at curbing free speech and dissent a hallmark of current of the current regime they're calling the government regime they are just as in his right. salon and says you are right we like him from our you know i know what i will i will i will like that i'll read to you i want to play a video comment though from someone who is of the mind that this might just be a slippery slope she works for the center for internet and society in stanford california here's her take the things you remember and the cryptic message services is that you can't just break the exception for one purpose such as trying to combat news you're going to break it for all purposes so while it might be socially beneficial for the indian government to be able to stem the tide of fake news the proposal from the indian government would also have an impact on people's ability to organize political rallies to communicate this to thoughts were just communicate
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privately so bear just keeping that in mind what would you do what proposals would you like to see put forward i think it's important for the government if we go to those who preconception. or the people's right to privacy but yet the government can prime minister and anything australia has done a fantastic job at this or trying to build some kind of. court to get the government to figure out who's forced to this kind of forum because child porn is a serious issue. and wouldn't be able to go away from me because i was only going to be able to operate no. they're going to probably. down load your cited water bill example and i think it's being called out by most rights organizations all over the world and. the government of india is not stopping breaking and lending it's also saying that the. wiring all platforms and this is not platform this is
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any online business most online businesses would be covered by so you can see and blending the one number to install it for the. content for also. can be anything you need indefinitely for all purposes of by any government option should i ask them to and third and fourth you need to saying no to everything and i don't mind the green was about to have a link to learn what is the legal this sounds like on. some written songs because i'm just i'm going to jump into little difficulty here i just said. i just want to talk about that but see that's a drop secondly in the meeting that the ever had with me but i don't know the discussion that there. were a company that made it very clear that they're going to listen to what people are going to change in
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a lot of interest in the art of north dakota fiction but just thank you thank you for jumping in that to me there's something really obvious and you're using a whatsapp device but it's people who are responsible for going out and behaving violently so i'm looking here at some street theater education that's happening in india we started off with a little ad campaign which is sad joy not with us i'm just wondering maybe it's about personal responsibility not about the government stepping in and what you think i think it is about and it's about in the energy a chance about creating an environment where you have less of this or that great clip you showed from the police lady i think that's exact. the kind of thing you need she goes out there she sees someone in a village and they're not and they're sleeping outdoors when they should be or sleeping indoors when they should be sleeping outdoors and she says something's wrong and that kind of flexible response of administration i think would go a long way towards this but the worry is that the government is using this as a red herring because what they really want to do is just control information flows
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so that when there's someone on you to progress who agrees one hundred percent with you she says that man in the black jacket is axillary so i wanted to share her about. that idea to. call an embryo out there i don't like here says education should be something the government puts in place to counter all the rumors instead of restrictions. so that's all the time we have for today thank you very much to our guests for joining us you can keep the conversation going by following us on twitter where at a.j. strain we will see you on and that's watching.
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