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tv   Inside Story 2019 Ep 170  Al Jazeera  June 19, 2019 8:32pm-9:01pm +03

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you know my report makes a friend of recommend the ships including to saudi arabia as a special rapporteur i am committed to establishing constructive relationship preserve the governments that i work with i have attempted to work with saudi arabia for the last 6 months they are not shown any interest in doing so or my reporting proves around every comment issue including with regard to the ongoing trial including with regard to step that. we take to demonstrate non repetition which is a from them and toward dimension of their responsibilities given that they have established that the responsibility of the state is inboard not repartition and we mean him or were there things to 2 pre order that are currently and prison or arrested for the basis on the basis of the peaceful expression of their opinions
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and surely a follow up investigation into the the security services and the how such an executive could have been carried out by members of the security services so to me the the obligation of non picture shows what i am placing a lot of emphasis on and i'm calling on the authorities of saudi arabia to take the necessary steps to demonstrate to the international community that they are indeed kmita 20 sure that these crimes he's never repeated do you think they are committed how have the saudis been forthcoming with information about this trial that is that is ongoing in saudi arabia as you say of suspects involved in the murder of jamal hash object. look i'm not going to make it a personal issue the fact that the saudi arabian government does not want to to to work with me does not necessarily mean that they are not committed i think however
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that there is a fundamental problem with the way the government of saudi arabia is approaching the issue they are insisting to treat it. only as a domestic questions and they are losing our sight of their international obligations under international human rights law 1st their executive of the stock casualty is an international crime the and the violations some are to port the violation of the right to life the arbitrary deprived of life the overregulation most of the point be shown against and forced disappearance the possible violation of the convention against torture the violations of the vienna convention on consular relations the violation sound of point against extraterritorial use of force just to name a few that makes a crime of mr cash an international issue that requires them to treat at their
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search at the moment the steps they have taken are failing to take stock of the real nature of the crime and of their obligation what about the united nations role in this i mean i don't think we can the united nations has somewhat been dragging its feet on whether to launch an investigation into the murder of jamal has georgy they've said that there hasn't been a you know as an official request from either turkey or are another countries what would you like the secretary general of the united nations to do now that you've released this report. so 1st i should i like that i am an independent expert that has been mandated by the united nations to work on the situation of extrajudicial executions so while my inquiry is not a human rights inquiry it is based on a mandate that was given to me by the member states of the united nation 2nd i
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am calling on the secretary general to. establish to appoint a panel of experts who could look into criminal responsibilities i have done the human rights investigation the next step i cannot do is an actual criminal investigation sen i hope that the secretary general we we will do just that i do not believe that he needs the turkey in particular to call on such an investigation formally more generally i think the united nations as a measure of order to play to ensure that he has the effective instruments and tools to prevent and respond to targeted killings and targeted disappearance isn't in my report i make around jobbery commendations including the establishment
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of a standing instrument for the investigation of power to the killings so that in the future of this kind of parliament that we have confronted over war as the order to do what are we not be happening you said in the report that this is an international crime with the universe saw jurisdiction if not turkey what other country do you think could take on this this initiative this push for an international inquiry. sure so 1st i should i like that in my opinion the sick consensus of the killing of mr cashel are so grave in terms of the violations of international law that in my opinion meet the fresh order of seriousness required for universal jurisdiction so that's the 1st point i am making with regard to the responsibilities of
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states be signed turkey i am suggesting that the united states has a stake in india killing nice turk and in solving the killing mr cashel he was a resident of the united states his words a norn and really not one member of the press corps in the united states and in many ways in my opinion the embodiment of for them and tore freedom and principle within the american constitution which is a 1st amendment for those reasons i believe the united states as a stake in pearl saw in all means such as the spoils or to ensure that accountability is delivered including a trial but the united states says you know or at end perhaps i should differentiate here between the u.s. congress and the trump administration the administration of the u.s. president has somewhat been reluctant to point the finger of blame at the saudi
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leadership over the murder of jamal khashoggi of wanted to sweep this under the rug how how hopeful are you that what you have said today in this report will lead to more action from the united states and in particular from the trumpet ministration . look at i think the united states is a country where the judicial system and the judges short institutions remain dependent and partial if there are poor sittings initiated by individual spy plenty if there i see no or no or systemic reasons that would prevent those complaints to pour seed as. the american system saw mr the president and others for me out there or misgivings regarding a trial and regarding criminal or civil investigation but i do not think that this
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will impact on american institutions including the justice system or indeed on the american congress or senate to proceed with what they see to be their their key function just coming back to the child that is ongoing in saudi arabia do you think that those on trial right now and of course we have very little information information about what's unfolding inside saudi arabia do you think that but the people responsible indeed for the murder of jamal khashoggi are the ones on trial right now. look based on what i have been able to gather. the 11 individuals that are currently on trial. include those that where in the room during the killing of mr cash shogi and in the vicinity of the
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room. so they were involved in the commission of the crime the question i am of course is about other individuals then could someone that has been often mentioned as having incited and altered the crime that can turn you that has been identified by the saudi prosecutor and was indeed the object of administrative measures since he was supposedly of fired from his position but he has not been indicted there are number of other individuals that have not been indicted thus far so these are raises a wrench of a red flag but importantly sittings are not transparent though the trial is being held behind closed doors it is their identities it is not the identities of those on trial has not been made public by
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the authorities even though all it me and sister again even though the executor of mr casualty is an international crime and it is a crime for which the international community as as much interest and has a role to play misc alomar one last question before we let you go and we do appreciate your time thank you so much you've done this investigation now you've made recommendations to the international community but are you hold for are you optimistic that there will ever be accountability in the murder of jamal khashoggi . i am hopeful because otherwise i will not be working in human rights but i am also realistic and pragmatic. i believe that the culpability for mr cashel he can take many forms judicial accountability is of course the highest objective and something the i i'm hoping we
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if we lap and but beside judicial accountability we also need to look for other forms of accountability they can be diplomatic they can be political they can be symbolic in my report i make a ranch of recommendations such as the establishment of special falls to support press freedom in the new don't least the the the creation of the establishment of different symbolic. evidence conferences anything that would be based on what mr casually stood for at the end of his life so that we ensure that his commitment to democracy could meet meant to human rights commitment to press freedom to find our a realisation through the actions of individuals states and civil society and the
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media thank you so very much for speaking to us agnes cullum r. is the un special rapporteur or an extrajudicial killings joining us there live from geneva thank you very much for your time. you're with. a lot to unpack and we are going to do that with our 2 correspondents who are standing by hashem is in istanbul but 1st to our diplomatic editor james at the united nations james you heard what agnes come i said there what were the highlights for you. well i think she's somewhat up what is a very damning report that is going to cause real headaches i think for saudi arabia potentially for the trumpet ministration and also here the u.n. headquarters it is worth reminding everyone that we find out what has been revealed in the last few hours that the saudi cover story was rubbish that this was
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premeditated and planned we find it shocking but remember the turkish officials the turkish intelligence gathered those tapes and they certainly shared them with the trumpet ministration they shared them with the saudis we suspect most western intelligence western governments would have had them as well which makes some of the comments that have come from bo's governments very interesting given that they've known all along some of these damning details that have come out in this report by agnes keller i thought is very interesting that she ended by talking about mr bouchard she and the values that he stood for because when you look at all the details of what happened in this appalling crime the grisly details i think that is also worth remembering and she made recommendations what do you think is going to happen now she's due to officially present this report at the u.n. human rights council on the 28th. patel eurabia is a part of that council
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a member of the u.n. human rights council how do you think this report is going to be received. i suspect saudi arabia is going to dismiss this that's just based on their activities since the death of mr shoji they've tried to delay things they've tried to come up with numerous different stories and this cuts through all of those stories and gives a pretty clear picture of what the special operator believed took place clearly the recommendations to other countries will be very interesting the united states to turkey and i think a big headache for the united nations i've already spoken to a source on the 38th floor here of u.n. headquarters that's where the 6 general had his office they are reading this they say that they only got it when we all got it so they are reading through their report looking how to respond was reminding you the secretary of the united nations has said i can't do anything i don't have the power because i need to get the
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mandate to set up an investigation from one of the big bodies of the u.n. the security council general assembly human rights council and a referral from the key states well she's saying no he on his own can set up a criminal investigation worth telling you fully if that is the case and she is certainly saying that her legal opinion is that it applies to other things as well for example the recent attacks on tankers in the gulf separate general again said i don't have the power to set up my own investigation well. said he's got much more power than he thinks he asked james stand by james bays at the united nations that cross to hashem at a bar any thumble not so hush him how we'll take a shower thought he'd be viewing this report then well this pushed now to take the the step the official step of asking for international investigation into tomorrow shuttles met. all of this is definitely going to give one a musician to the turkish government to put more pressure on the united states of
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america and also on sunday arabia to provide more details about the remains of the whereabouts of the remains of q we spoke earlier to a turkish senior official who told us that his government comes with the reports by the special rapporteur and that from a turkish perspective the findings vindicate the official position of turkey from the beginning of the crisis on the 2nd of october when jamal hustles you was now in the building where you can see behind me the consulate in istanbul but the official told us the now the hope is that the united nations secretary general were trying to work out details with the 2nd that with the security council about how to move forward when it comes to a criminal investigation whether the same source told us that they are pretty much concerned that the u.s. administration would use its political leverage to undermine any push to implicate the saudi officials who gave the order to kill. thank you very much for that hashem
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had life forests any thumble. it is 12 g.m.t. a watching al jazeera live from doha and continuing coverage this hour of the reports by the un extra did just falls executions investigator column on into the murder of. a shoji a report that paints a damning picture of saudi arabia's role in the murder. the report says the murder inside the saudi consulate in istanbul last october is an extrajudicial killing for which the saudi kingdom is responsible the details taped conversations about body disposal in the moments before the show g.'s arrival at the saudi consulate in istanbul connemara is calling for further investigation of the individual
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responsibility of saudi officials at the highest level including crown prince mohammed bin solomon says the killing is an international crime with universal jurisdiction. magnus column on has said the kingdom of saudi arabia is undoubtedly responsible for murder i spoke to a short while ago here's what she said. 1st and foremost we must insist in putting the responsibility of the killing tools the state of saudi arabia it must bear responsibility for that killing and we must take action as a state to repay over killing i have found no evidence. regarding who ordered the killing it doesn't mean that the evidence does not exist it just mean that i was not able to work to locate it what i would like to highlight as well is the fact that the responsibility for state killings does mean
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that we need to be more sophisticated in the way we define responsibilities of course who ordered is important but there are range of other responsibilities that are involved in the commission of the crime that are very similar to what we call a chain of command responsibilities in the in the military setting but to prime that concept to a civilian setting saw east somebody responsible for inciting directly or indirectly did somebody failed to prevent did somebody fail to stop the execution so this is why i have called for a criminal investigation into see exit you should saw that those responsibilities can be identified i am pointing out that the commission the exit of the killing of mr cash or spree ceded over the year by
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a rancher of regulations that had been well reported denounced and monitored there is no way the highest level of the state of saudi arabia including the crown prince well not aware of those repeated violations therefore for the 12 months at least that preceded the exec you should know of mr there were many or pot. unities to take step to prevent and stop further violations doorsteps where not taken the exit of mr cashel before all is within that context within our campaign. directed at people perceived to be undermining or frightening the state the breast of those in charge of the state is just an gauged saw based on the information that was made available to me including. some some 17 minutes of recording in the days and on the day of these exit there
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is little doubt in my mind that the killing was premeditated it was planned with equal splendor as the 1st objective or whether it was planned as a 2nd objective that i could not determine it may be possible that the primary objective was the kidnapping of mr cashel d. which is all saw by the way and it wished to and sister pondered a violation of international human rights law it is possible that the kidnapping was a 1st objective and though the killing as a as an option if the kidnapping field but steps were taken before the as part of the preparer ition of the mission to plan for a possible or an actual exit you should. bring in our diplomatic editor james live
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for us at the united nations you've seen the reports james you've heard what agnes cullum are hard to say 1st of all i mean we had some pretty chilling details of what happened to jamal has georgie when he entered the saudi consulate in istanbul did we though hear anything new that we didn't suspect to before. we certainly suspected a lot of this but what we have i think for the 1st time is some of the detail that's never been released before and the fact that some of this was clearly planned the cutting up of the body was talked about before he arrived at the consulate the spose in the body in plastic bags in leather bags all of this was discussed in advance which of course she's saying there's the possibility that there was you know still is still part of their plans could have been a kidnapping the saudis have never said that they that at any stage there was
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a premeditated plan for a murder and that has come out for the 1st time very damning and as you say some of the details of very very chilling including the passages about what actually happened saudi officials were heard saying did he sleep keep pushing pushchair don't remove your hand push it and it goes on assessments of the recordings by intelligence officials in turkey and other countries just to cause shoji could be ejected injected with a sedative and then suffocated you're using a plastic bag it goes on sounds of movement and heavy panting could be heard in the remainder of the recording so new details coming out shocking to us all of this known of course by turkish intelligence and they passed it on to their counterparts in many other intelligence services including the saudis including of course the u.s. we know the head of the cia heard these tapes we know the trumpet ministration senior
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officials know exactly what was in this recording will increase the pressure on capitol hill i think on the trumpet ministration and also her comments to you in that interview a short time ago that the u.s. is one place where the criminal work now should go in a possible u.s. case against the saudis responsible for this how much pressure does this put on the united nations james and the secretary general to now initiate an investigation. yeah i think it puts a great deal of pressure on the secretary general and other parts of the united nations she makes recommendations to the security council to that they should have an informal meeting on this to discuss what happened i don't think you're going to get the security council pushing hard for the investigation i don't think the security council will see that that is their job but they will they will see many members of the council even those that are not favorable saudi arabia like for
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example russia potentially will will will not necessarily say that's within the remit of the security council is a matter for international peace and security for the secretary general he all along has said that it's not in his power to set up an international investigation he says that he needs a referral from a country or one of the main bodies of the u.n. she says no it's in his power so that again is in question and that of course is interesting in the last week or so he said he can't set up an investigation into the tanker attacks in the gulf or exactly the same reasons well she's making it clear the secretary general has very wide powers and could order investigation in this case a criminal investigation into what she says was an execution by saudi arabia and that investigation should look at who was ultimately responsible she hasn't found proof that the crown prince ordered this but she says there's credible evidence
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that merits further investigation of his role thank you james for that james diplomatic editor live for us at the united nations lex sport is not it further with sad jabar was an international lawyer and political commentator his live from london agnes connemara is calling for a criminal investigation now into the matter of jemaah. what's the likelihood that . were obviously she conceived of that the vista geishas go which have been done by the turks or the saudis were not completed they were not. enough and from the beginning i called for a proper comprehensive and then the permanent criminal of this to get. into this case because it involves breach of diplomatic rules or laws by the saudis and also will gruesome crime against all humanity and draws
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therefore the only ulterior motive to all those inquiries is an international inquiry the security council we know the emptiness including of that of the united states china and others it might be paralyzed because of self-interest but the secretary general or could rely on reason lucian from the general assembly itself or any other bodies otherwise he could set up on the russian manpower of international criminal lawyers immanence lawyers judges of the i.c.j. court of justice or people who are well known in the field of international law and at least to investigate further because the year of the year credible evidence is not a simple phrase that means that is a prime f.s.e. case that the highest echelons of nice out of the political establishment were
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involved i was kind of i said that this killing is an international crime with universal jurisdiction are they precedents where you know universal jurisdiction has been applied to a case and could it work in the matter of jamal khashoggi. of course there is a system of sanctions against and the readers you know you have so you know x. for from some countries you know even the history is full of wear and the video sanctions were imposed on freezing freezing assets freezing accounts of. suspected of. crimes or indeed any other crimes but this crime is a crime against humanity therefore immunity will not be a use door. but it is somewhat hammered missile man or others come a lot higher behind diplomatic immunity that's why is that.

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