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tv   Inside Story 2019 Ep 363  Al Jazeera  December 30, 2019 10:32am-11:01am +03

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skip's led. libya's un recognized governments as cold on the united nations and the international criminal courts to stall for the 25 to as offensive on tripoli hundreds of civilians have been killed or wounded since have to launch that his campaign back in april ukrainian government forces and russian backed separatists have exchanged $200.00 prisoners those released include soldiers civilians and members of a special police force the swat fals talks between ukraine and russia's leaders in paris 3 weeks ago. and the governor of new york has described the latest attack on orthodox jews as an act of domestic terrorism 5 people were killed by a man wielding a machete he stormed into a rabbi's house on saturday night's. show up to date stay with us now to syria the u.s. continues after inside story on counting the cost $29.00 teams want to give the world struggle to put aside short term economic game to save the planet for the last of
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america the middle east people took to the streets you know the spread of wealth at a trade war reshapes globalization counting the cost on al-jazeera. mogadishu suffers its worst attack in years raising a question mark over transition plans are wrong groups making a comeback will national institutions be able to take on more responsibility in 2020 this is inside story. hello welcome to the show i'm sam is a than nearly 80 people were killed on saturday in the worst bomb attack in the somali capital in 2 years president mohammed of the law he has condemned it as he nears acts of terror he's blaming it on. the armed group was forced out of
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mogadishu in 2011 but still controls large parts in the southwest of the country the united states has intensified as strikes the african union has long been on the offensive in somalia but that hasn't stopped the shabaab from carrying out deadly attacks there and in neighboring kenya and uganda this latest one has raised concerns about whether somalia's forces are capable of maintaining security as african union troops begin to withdraw we'll talk to our guests shortly but 1st this report from how to. cheering morning rush as many people going to work and university students heading to campus the bombs exploded at a security checkpoint by many coming into mogadishu. a truck loaded with explosives was detonated at a busy checkpoint the explosion led to many deaths and injuries most of those died
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here students who were going to the schools and universities. this explosion is like the one in the junction back in 2007 just a few steps away from where i am. officials believe the target was a building next to the checkpoint by government troops the group was pushed out of mogadishu several years ago but it still targets high profile areas such as checkpoints and hotels. also carried out attacks in neighboring kenya and uganda. is trying to stop attacks like this from happening. saturday's tragedy has become a lesson learned since the country is in a state of we need to be vigilant against terror attacks since the primary goal of the terrorists is to cause maximum damage to everybody. not only targeting those who work for the government but the entire population for those caught up in the blast and those who lost family members and loved ones that's
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a little comfort. algis there. let's bring our gas into the show then we have joining us here in doha in the studio is is the last man an assistant professor at the university of leicester and author of media and the somali conflict mohammed had more gay is former head of strategic communications for the somali government he joins us from mogadishu jealous man is a somali journalist who joins us from london welcome to all of you folks and start with it ill here in the studio so does the bombing show that somalis government small is government has failed already failed to even control the capital. it's a very difficult situation sami on one hand you have a an insurgency that's reinventing itself and they have been driven away from many parts of that they controlled previously in south south and central somalia they
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used to have a stronghold in mogadishu they no longer do the same with you know several key cities in south central somalia but what's happened what's happening here is a number of key issues that have sort of come together on one hand you have a government who doesn't have the sophisticated arms to actually be it to have a more sophisticated warfare with against them on one hand because of the the weapons and barker on the other hand you have a very flexible and immobile insurgency while shabaab doesn't have a base particularly they literally are in the woods and they can quickly mobilize themselves to to organize attacks and things like that and then i think the bigger problem here is that the public neutrality so you have a public that thinks this is a fight between the somali government on one hand and al shabaab on the other hand and so they don't realize that in fact they are the biggest sufferers when it comes
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to these attacks and we've mentioned in your headline introduction that you know close to 100 people have died all of those are civilians including those that the were from from international community such as the 2 turkish engineers so i think where the government probably need to do a lot more work is creating public perception and creating an incentive for the public to feel that this is in their best interests to actually get out there anything security though. it's not just about crossing the public perception well yes but these things need to go hand in hand right because you actually i was not separate from the public they literally are coming in they they are staying in people's houses they are creating these bombs and i.e.d. attacks this is assembling them within. cities in place and they have people within the public that they can find support and hiding places from so i think these things need to happen in conjunction surprising then let's take the discussion if we may to jamal in london how much support. does
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a group like al shabaab get from the public to carry out an attack like this it's it would seem given that the casualties are civilians are people from the public students innocent people just going about their ordinary lives it's quite shocking to think they're operating assembling their stuff in the homes of of other civilians. i mean it is true and i remember 10 years ago exactly 10 years ago a similar park happened and people were saying of shabab will be defeated al shabaab as we can but i don't buy this narrative that al-shabaab has been weakened i think al shabaab by still very strong they control large territories of southern and central samarra yes they have been pushed out of major cities but in villages and towns and rural areas the military this knowledge as i still are strong they know what they're good at look conventional army they don't face conventional armies but they're good at guerrilla tactics so they are there they are very strong and i
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would say their supporters i would divide them into 3 types one. young man who grew up within ideology who genuinely believe in al-shabaab and there are thousands of them and then you have much people who belong to minority clans who for a generation were used and discriminated an outcast by the bigger clans who were liberated and al-shabaab rule who would not accept al-shabaab bad and then you have big clients who are not happy with the government who feel badly treated by the government who are loyal to al shabaab when they have to be loyal to so up about half support they are very strong militarily they control large parts of somalia and in fact even in mogadishu day they collect taxes they do whatever they want literally so i don't buy this idea has been weakened they are right there extra let me if i may bring in mohammed you're
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a former spokes person of course or head of strategic communications for the somali government has the somali government i mean the it sounds like from talking to our guest in the show so far it sounds like the somali government has failed to heal some rifts really within somali society between clans at least and that is feeding support for a chabad. but sunny i think to be honest it's not the best of time to analyze the government's efforts to add security when just slightly over 24 hours ago you could make a case for the government today i mean if you're asking this question to 3 days ago given you holmes which most of the people would agree with me but then again there's the emotional aspect to the various the adrenalin aspect to the desert anger and there's a supportive government failure every time there's an attack but then again that's what i'm sure i've always uses they usually i mean it's a terror organization the more there's operandi of a terror organization is to see if i hear him and when is that our ability to time
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without the security performance of a government or when is the appropriate time if not when you know civilian lives are put straight. i mean exactly i mean this is a government that's up and there's a doctor in the right he put it this is a case that the government against al-shabaab which is very wrong i mean the public have to take sides the public are making i mean are the biggest casualties look at yesterday look at 14 october 18th $17.00 mission 10 years ago at the university students graduation ceremony i mean look at all these i mean the thing is al shabaab is and i mean for the somali government you want to topple the somali government the people of the bank bystanders are security in this country will require sophistication tons of technology not all of that it would require a lot of preparation funds intelligence gathering so but some i mean i can jamie just there's a number of things that we need to identify 1st of all you know when you have a carnage like today like yesterday when you have
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a con it's like the one that happened in october 2017 with scores of people dying obviously it's going to look like the government has failed but i think we need to look at the larger picture on one hand if you look at the number of suicide attacks the number id bombs attack that used to happen this time 234 years ago it was on a regular basis i go to make this you at least 23 times a year for the last 10 years since i've been doing research there and one of the things that used to really really worry us is the fact. these attacks were happening almost on a daily basis and weekly basis whereas now if you look at the spread between these colleges it shows that there are months in between you so you have this one that's happened yesterday before that it was you know could cut so there's a lot of compliments or anything of any case that shows the fate of 4 years ago but is it is it a thing the only thing is that you hear a lot of it becoming bad only flee it's not going to be at the level that is required to provide security some of them a country let's allow muhammad to finish his thought come back him to to be to get to be took to be exact and in detail because it is a good point look at the entire november there was no incident of the entire 12
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others you know incident of attack it doesn't you know shabaab on holiday they don't they don't take us with breaks i mean every time a shabaab is preparing something it's always planning it's always in the movies always governing always want to do something but i'm going to assume that we had 60 days 90 days or are under soon that all what guess what and then i mean you need to bear in mind it's not just the law of armed that's going on in these kinds of carnage is you've got a number of people that benefit from the status quo you've got aggravate you know aggrieved business people you've got the international community you've got all kinds of shady people that benefit from the state school and so therefore having peace and stability in somalia is not going to be at the best interest of many people including us all right let me bring jamal and ask the question does the scale and location of your bombing suggest at least some degree of info trace in the states or even security forces. you know there is the from of the an infiltration we're being told that they were targeting these turkish. engineers
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though we cannot confirm that but i would say the government has felt if 100 people were killed who would you blame yes i have been accused they were expected this is what they do on a regular basis. and if we are void the government and i mean telling the truth then i don't think there will be any solution the normal sort of procedure you hear when a parts like this happen is the government can do they send condolences and then they weigh the next up top and i would disagree with even though it's not the government that's preventing suicide attacks i think al shabaab has changed its is trying to do they used to do and the sort of let's say scare up types but now they are going for the big attacks and i think i have listened to him for his or i wouldn't i wouldn't say the government has managed to prevent any of these attacks i think it's al shabaab that has changed its strategy so i would repeat again the
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government has failed of somalia or i can see mohammed wants to come back in let's give you a chance to finish your thought the the later of some of the nature of al shabaab zaatar is that the shabaab by its very nature that accomplishing is not conventional they're weird and conventional warfare there's the arm of us they're shapeless they are focused and that's how they do the activities and not only does government any government in somalia today really struggle with catching up with preventing all but then having say that that does not negate the fact that this government has tried to do a few things i mean for example anybody who is well vast of the geography of this country will tell you that there are significant inroads in security i mean even in movement of the somali national army look at the bridges near mogadishu there are towns and villages that are very significant coming. into the town that had been taken there number of efforts we live in mogadishu as a city that has been taken i mean there are these city t.v.
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cameras all of our there is the biometric or destruction of the somali national army all these had not been there i'm not saying that enough they cannot be enough it's a work in progress let's give governments where the hardware are where they make some inroads but then again let's also blame the government for the gov's and that's why i was telling you earlier on that's not the best time to analyze saw billy objectively well the government has done with regards to security in the bag . of soccer isn't the target or skill of 81 people most of them story does the bombing also raise some question marks about the effectiveness of all those foreign forces and african union forces in somalia i mean for me one of the big concerns i see is the lack of coordination amongst all of the people that are involved all of the agencies that are involved in the security and stability of somalia you've got the smaller government that's obviously taking the lead on this but then you also have number of you know western countries a number of middle eastern countries that are involved in training the police units
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and training the military personnel so the specialists the forces that have taken over the liberated cities that morgan was mentioning earlier for example where then taken over and stabilized by small a force that was specially trained by the american or the british military but on top of that you also have private security you also have a you know a number of. international agencies that are involved in security operations and what i'm seeing is a lot of activity and lack of coordination we need more effectiveness we need want to streamline and there are laws in the belief amongst some somalis that all these foreign agencies or forces are really looking out for their own national interest rather than that of the somali people is that what you're getting and i think there are a number of conflated interests here so you have on one hand the u.s. and western society and the west in its national committee that are largely operating on a policy of can. a moment and so it's very much keeping things within the somali borders and trying as much as possible to contain it and that also is then in you
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know fueled by the fact that you have an arms embargo which means that the somali security forces only have a k 47 is to fight when they actually needs a period weaponry to fight an insurgency like on the other hand you have security personnel by private companies by private businesses and all of them obviously looking for their best looking out for their vested into this is why i'm pointing out to the fact that the government really doesn't they need to take leadership in stream now streamlining all of the security operations that are happening in somalia so that you can have a much more effective affective approach mohamad do you think the what somali are you will be ready to take on more responsibility to see a drawdown of african union forces and 2020 as was planned meant turn to 20 is just too soon i mean doubles just very ambitious. very very ambitious keen to imagine the phosphates but then we today gris a little bit. so you know before you do think this monogram is going to ask the
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e.u. to extend the store down is not going to happen well well i don't speak for the government no private enterprise or do you think was my question would have to say i mean. i think i think under some is there to stay for a little while and i don't think 2020 would be a time when there will be a complete or a draw complete draw down on this and but then there is aspect of correlation between the african union forces and my own national army government and international community i'll give you the very list of examples is look at the statements i mean there is not even sense or a statement of opinion has a statement the un has a different statement even condolences even if in games when they make the somali government has a different statement so people who are not able to consolidate a basic statements something like this are we going to move all this our condolences or this is meant generally that's not there it's an aspect of coronation it looked a that was rightly quote and house elaborated on but then it is too soon to answer your question 2 of the african union forces. move out or even draw down for now
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because where us the somali government has made huge inroads in ensuring that this while national army is organized. there is the there is the head count of the somali national army that is now going there's about letters titian's to my nephew army which have which is a rowing i believe and which had actually given the government there really are a template of how to and how to know where this thankful lie or where or how to plan ahead in their restructuring the somali national army but then again 2020 is just 3 days to come i don't think right is that right or that is that raises then jamal that raises some more questions than about what might happen in 2020 such as can credible elections be held as planned 2020 i think before also the election let i'm a democrat your question. yes. let me let me answer the initial question
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somali forces ready to take over the country and the simple answer is no and i don't think the african union forces are going to leave somalia anytime soon simply where you hear somali forces they're made up of clan militias there is no such thing are somali forces as unified somali forces and they are loyal to their clans 1st the idea of nationhood is an abstract idea to most of somalis so i don't think the african union's will leave anytime soon and if they do. is there to take over the country they are there they have the army is the system is still exists so is that coming back to your question of an election there what are your elections and there doesn't seem from as well for the whole 11 hour how how will it all go jamal jamal is what i mean. is al shabaab going to take the country because we know al shabaab they do it is not very popular anymore there's already
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a stream of new recruits polish up and they keep making losses why have i been one of a i have a. rather that they are not popular this this is false narrative of law in order to learn something else or mali have they are popular they have supporters they are loyal supporters who are willing to die for their cause do we know i mean how is that it is acceptable 'd if they don't know about has already new string of for it or has a point the british theme of new recruits already before they do any of the half they do have supporters of the fight so i'm still very strong i have from where i'm from of some of territories over the years i have seen or outlet they have huge fighters they have supporters let's move on the question of elections going forward we'll bring it to a deal here in the studio how does the expectation for elections work like now. well you've got the government and the international community that are both pushing for the one man one vote approach its own interests event can happen the
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right way i think they're going to face and some real difficulty on one hand you've got obviously the security challenges the fact that the government doesn't have control over all of the areas within the somali territories the 2nd issue is the fact that you have the federal state members who don't all agree with one man one vote you've got to put one that's again said you got double and that's against it you can go on with it that's against it and so to actually be able to realize on having a one man one vote within one year the law is in there are exactly a lot still needs to be done and on top of that i think the best thing in if they had a realistic expectation without asking for a term extension the best thing that they can do is probably look for a way that moves away from the 4.5 formula where you had the clan elders electing the parliament chair of parents who then elected the president but perhaps look for ways that you can have the public chip in on some of the a little or a several rather than a one man one vote after all right let me bring in if i can begin and talk about
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another issue that's on the horizon there is some doubt about whether the somali government is going to get debt relief from the i.m.f. and world bank in the spring of 2020 namely because one of the biggest crisis is the u.s. of course with the u.s. we're told didn't get congressional approval for debt relief and some of the spending bills how worried are the somali authorities in your understanding about that scenario what would it mean for the country war. why don't the fund then you worries within the somali government. debt relief in this one thing is government could be proud of is there for its to add to the death of levy how all the support from the united states and the international community of the aspect of congressional debate over whether there may have been a simple oversight on the side of the united states had been in the news the government did not come out and clear their own but if anything they are been very
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vocal and if anything they have been very optimistic that by march this year next year probably somalia meets the the fast really dead tree leaf for them and if the united states take the lead if they're able to correct the oversight as reported by some papers in the united states i don't think it's a worry for the government would have been awarded for the somali government if the office late had been from their side but as far as this goes they're very clear on this and they have they have they have made the right calls on this and i think they're they're just waiting and hoping that will be corrected as well if anything they are very hopeful or i think we've got about 30 seconds left let me give it to your mom and ask the question what does the humanitarian situation look like going forward in the in addition to fighting of course we've had the recent floods. but you might be humanitarian situation in somalia it's always dire where the it
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rains or we have a drought i have reported over the years droughts and rains and unless we have a credible government that's there to serve the public i think we will see more humanitarian crisis over the years. all right we're going to have to leave it there let's thank our guests very much for this discussion here in the studio and of course and jamal and thank you too for watching you can see the show again any time by visiting our website al-jazeera dot com for the discussion head over to our facebook page that's facebook dot com forward slash a.j. inside story you can also join the conversation on twitter our handle is at a.j. inside story from me sam is a balance here but now it's good bye. capturing
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a moment in time. snapshots of all the lives. of the stories. providing the tips into someone else's world that is why i do the or. inspiring documentaries from impassioned filmmakers. witness on al-jazeera i thought this conviction that everyone has a deep reservoir of thomas realty and if you can give them the opportunity wonderful things start to happen sometimes the simplest seditions author missed and packed for that they are. the main things that sets out 0 apart from other news organizations is that a lot of our reporting is about real people not about ideas or politicians or what they may want to do but how policy and how events affect real people is something
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it's ok it's ok to get a little more complicated operations probably if this is not an act of creation i'm an item of the office of the work you're doing here is amazing but there are so many fossils and it feels like this is just a dance what was your relationship with joe normal ok certainly. this job isn't just about what's on a script or a piece of paper it's about what's happening right now. my name is some people say that my feelings are any program that they're not real but if i think that real then they are real don't you think south america was designed to be the world's most advanced autonomous android is one of the more advanced robots in the world can or robot feel that's a philosophical question it's not a lot of but you do socially connect on a subconscious level we are creating this new kind of entity techno all knowledge is earring.
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the u.s. warns of further action after it launches air strikes on a she armed group in iraq and syria. i had seen and this is al jazeera live from doha also coming up bush fires in a string of towns in victoria state sounds temperatures soar above 40 degrees. it is unpredictable it's dangerous out there and people need to stay true to their local conditions and stay across that wouldn't.

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