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well missy ambassadors need to get together inside reading out conversations and they're not really able to do that. i'm so there is definitely a sense that a lot of difficult issues in the council are being made just a bit more difficult by it being online for the moment it looks like much work will continue remotely with diplomats literally remaining buildings if not worlds apart kristen salumi al-jazeera the united nations. again i'm fully backed with the headlines on al-jazeera u.s. president joe biden has presented what he calls his blueprint to build america he address congress on the eve of his 100th day in office biden is promising trillions of dollars in investment in jobs infrastructure and education 100 days since i took the oath of office and left in my hand off our family bible and heard
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tell me what the government you represent is now illegitimate we listen we do not sell fence material any country. conflict we meet with global news makers and talk about the stories that matter syria. ok today on the stream the story of nigeria's bronze is looted by the british in 8097 and now found in museums around the world you can see some of these cultural treasures behind me they're always made out of bronze sometimes metal or wood or ivory and they came from the kingdom opening let me show you a map so you can see where that the southern part of nigeria is where the original kingdom is many cities that see that little red dot and this is in southern nigeria so we're not talking about the republic of benning but they pin down of the name
now we have that right let's get the debate started we often hear the idea that restitution is an attack upon buzy and that this is iconoclasm whereas in fact restitution is already a part of the normal operation of museums in america and europe in the cases of nazi loot and in the cases of indigenous ancestral human remains for the very different historical circumstances of african objects that were taken under colonialism increasingly the conversation is happening in between all the unseasoned trustees and courageous who think it's time that this issue is addressed . so let's get this conversation started with i guess telling us we have a no today we have donovan we have nailed it is good to see the gentleman and let's hear a introduce yourself to ask stream audience actual connection to that the name brands
this. artist. your city. what. do you believe. if you research on trust to get about rosie's a view of. your office has been. designed in words short period who's written by. bankers the other birds. is a lone star in o.t.l. we get back to in just a moment don of a nice to have on the stream tell everybody your connection to the penny. i'm a journalist and author i was a b.b.c. correspondent in nigeria many years ago and i've just written a book called loot britain and the bend in bronzes in which i tell the tale of how
the bronzes were made in that west african kingdom how and why the british took them in 1907 what happened to them since and the very current active debate which we talk about this evening what should happen to them now i know you've been making headlines around the loud you are a hot topic in the out well tell our audience 5. sam neill courtesan head of museum special collections in the university of aberdeen in scotland and yes with the universe to announce that it would return been in drums to about 4 weeks ago now there was purchased by the unrest in 1057 good to have neil bonnett ray allen in l.t.a. and also you audience watching right now on you tube you can jump into the comment section of part of today's program in o.t. i did a very very simple explanation of what the printing bronzes actually are but there's a much deeper cultural significance a sunday here comes from at and state how would you explain what's these
striking objects actually truly may well or objects or symbol or heritage. objects were made. or maybe all their music is all original horses were imposed on someone before you remember your story telling us stories or history or the maid or do. so or. do products together or absolute or history or heritage symbol or civilization which is not that way. but we are just going to show some of the pictures that are in your book loot and it starts off with this campaign. to go to the name city because the brits want to do trades with the hour the playing and the over is not that keen
on doing so so we we start off with well this is the team who went out to bring city can you talk us through some of these pictures and why they're important. these are some of the senior officers of the punitive expedition they're sitting on board a boat in liverpool and they're in their way to belize city the british empire at that time the preeminent global power able to assemble a force very quickly they bring in ships from cape town from motor from across the globe they march into ben in city they believe that the burger king of benon city the british say has not been observing the terms of an earlier treaty which he had been coerced probably into into agreeing to some years earlier and they raise ben incisions to the ground they have an overwhelming military force they have the maximum gun which is a a devastating weapon and the buried empire
a proud empire a place of cultural achievement for many hundreds of years has as no charts here you can see british officers in the arbors palace in the courtyard and this is just some of the loot which they took of there as you say the bronzes but of course great piles of tasks as well these are i suppose iconic i suppose infamous images and they helped capture why the looting of them in city has become emblematic of the whole question of colonial duty dark because the bend in bronze as were so splendid and because the manner in which they were taken was so egregious so relatively recent and so well documented neal. until quite recently you hear vestey had a big name brands that you or you were planning on keeping it was part of your
collection and that changed can you tell us that story and why it changed. i think this is something that's been happening over many years and gradually mean obviously bernie graham's the 1990 s. was arguing for the return of any promises so it's not something that's new. but i think for me from the 2 thousands we started being involved in. north america still you new zealand and i think what's become so clear it is that instead of seeing these things as things they are by relationships that are by people they matter tremendously to people from whom they were they were collected. so i think we started seeing our collection slightly differently seeing it as a being about relationships and about relationships in the present as much as the possibly want to address that. so we realized that you know we had this this one bend in bronze that was was bought by the university in the 195-0000 example of
african art and that was on display in 1906 celebrate the independence of nigeria but the more we thought about it the more we realized that new yes we might have had legal title to it but really given the way in which any city was destroyed in the material was looted we really couldn't say that we had modeled title so it really clashed with the university's values of being international being inclusive being respectful and so i really i think very clearly very logically came the feeling that we should return less than assassin thoughts with advancement through an instant reaction have come through or nothing with a question this is from it seems obvious i should be much closer to that answer arjun and that's how it responds. well yes surge coming home. chose to release 2. prior access to their war on the. critter america marius says and i'm going to get this one tea in there why not set
up infrastructure of the countries help invest in the preservation of their own treasures their own culture. i don't disagree at all i think really you know that's very important that people should be able to to see their own culture and i think you know there are advantages to having things elsewhere in the world but i think the important 'd thing is that the decision to decide what happens lies with the people who these things belong to i am picking up on one more thing here part of the other said this is you this is from adam are they if they are returned they will not be don't have adequate the answer adam a is nigerian we are not known for maintaining a poseur the historical artifacts this is something you looked into and you went to been eans city what did you find. what i would say that the debate about the problems within nigerian museums is carried out with much more candor and
understanding within nigeria itself than it is in europe and this is an important point and up our quote facts for nigeria in this story nigerian museums already have a very fine collection of bennett brahms's if you go to the national museum in lagos and frankly not many of them are on display and not many people in lagos go and see them having said that i think the reason a golden opportunity to make things better and to repair that situation and not to use is the right man you should be trying to because their main city right now there is assembled something of a dream to a governor governor who's really committed a star architect is or not he is told use and do a better job and the the international support the international sympathy is there so this is a golden opportunity for nigerians on the ground to get it right and that is
indicative of how the world is changing if you like the fate of the better bronzes will be determined as much by the acts of key nigerian. as the consciences of western curators that is something very important say that i am just looking at your picture of you david other i. who has designed so many extraordinary buildings around the world have a good discussion if i was a fly on the wall here what i hear or hear or we're talking about the significance of the mosque. which is in the british museum. the significance or whatever don't explain how important the history of youngest development open in you know. 2000000000 don't probably 60 said if you're. going to symbol. striving for excellence and your judgments of all civilization.
i'm wondering here because there is that will conversation that is happening about well if we give. but then in bronson's back to 90. you have the resources to no cost them who won't look after them the happy instances where a lot of money was spent having them back from different parts of europe to the 950 s. and they ended up back in europe with them and that's how we have we're so people can know that what happened or you're no no no it's not going to happen again because now there's a plan in place to view the globe stand up was young don't lose your we're starting out on this music on what is being built on the an independent frost legacy which the original trust which hardesty the state with us public trust you know nobody of our or our last real powers of been in. government and c m m which is
national. monuments on the board of trustees this is legacy research on frost is an independent structure going to talk which will responsibility the busy on i don't short it is built according to our standards it's been designed by citing. why we don't see them assure that the city of the project but we are short of display to preserve our ordinance to go about this practice you know a lot of this is a part of it here or bought it on the airport or looted so we were sitting here. rather bottoms to the said oh really it's all been about to park in the national museum there said there for anybody to see just this afternoon i went to vote
in 02 saw runs this. reason would governments all been saw probably what was going. leaders were developing a walk last minute young. woman john edwards are ours with real receded and displayed because the parks are going to publish promise of this new video of this gotten out of the government of. god no cardinal was likely to say it is very cost on this little serious original trust act as an international group shows new problems both us you have to get that been aimed bronzes back to. them so that evolves a little slow motion adds to teenie about because it's about have a listen to this comment festival and i just come off the back of the media and interest in your take there is a new dynamic both in the global south and in the global norse former colonies are
strengthening them you seem infrastructure and they are developing policies to retrieve objects that were lost involuntary me during the colonial era. former colonizers on the other hand are slowly moving to a point where they are willing to repatriate such objects. now the challenge is to whether former colonies and former colonies are able to reduce them which will distrust and to to dialogue on the issue on an equivalent level only den some of the injustice committed in the colonial era can be undone. hello. i think what's really important is this discussion is coming together the consensus that's being built and i think you know we i feel that we've you know played
a part in building the collaboration with the partners that are not yet he's been talking about it i think is really important we don't see this as a sort of oppositional thing that it's something where we you know we come into with good intent and then we can we can achieve good things. we talked to the british museum we asked them if they would be part of this program. they sent us a statement inset is a very long statement but let's have a look at it and then i'll just put a couple of things that really struck us on the stream so i put that up on the screen there what he said you can actually see that and this is where the british museum are coming from where they they have some difficulty which i know you will be able to explain but they say we believe the strength of the british museum collection resides in its bret's and that's allowing millions of visitors and understanding of the cultures of the world and how they connect over time whether through trade migration conquest or peaceful exchange and we're talking about conquest right here so bothered me that sounds to me like they're not really. dying
to give the name bronzes to this beautiful museum that will happen in the southern part of nigeria that doesn't sound to me like they're going to hand them over what did you find when you went there to talk to them about this. well there's a lot i could say about the british museum i think when i started out on this project i i felt like a lot of people that it was a very you know self-assured possibly even arrogant institution which didn't feel it had to our answer for itself and towards the end i came see it instead as as a rather divided institution an institution which is almost paralyzed by this problem and doesn't quite know what to say and hence it's not untypical that they've given you a press release and they haven't appeared in this program the british museum does have a story to tell and doesn't always succeed in getting it across they are constrained in a way that neil courtesy in aberdeen for example is not there is something called the
british museum act of $963.00 which makes it impossible for the british museum to d. exception that museums speak for the handover in a permanent way items from its collection with a few exceptions which which dan hicks mentioned at the beginning of the program to do not so young and not see taken luton human body parts but in general terms it's very difficult for the british museum to give things back for ever without a change to the law and that would require an act of parliament and it's difficult to see this current british conservative government. going down that route the british museum does have a lot of leeway however over loans and within the bend in dialogue group which is a group of museums which are talking about this thing they've indicated a willingness to lend back an unspecified number of bettin bronzes and they haven't
they haven't even stipulated you know which ones within their collection they have to be haven't ruled out any objects but there is a potential car crash for the british museum i have to say which is that only other museums in the belly and our group it's not inconceivable that they will give back their bet in burns's and the british museum. we're not loaning. neal that word lonely infuriates people whose art has been stolen looted and they seem to know how to negotiate getting it back how do you feel about. well i think this is why i'm in the university's decision was for an unconditional return we didn't have a model title so i think in our decisions for the state forward i think there's one thing i would take out missions in statement i think it's interesting but it is about this ability of optics to tell stories about connections with people around the world and i think it would be really good if we were able to lend scottish
things to bending city so that that that your mutual lending can go on i think it might be nice if we could but maybe sometime borrow some bending bronzes from from burning city and i think there's a there could be a lot more flow between institutions rather than focusing too much on in on ownership but i think in the end this case for laws that the decision of ownership was quite simple and i tell you even that once made my my jaw dropped when you were suggesting that extends a pretty broad sense to some of the greatest doubt that europe has ever produced but were you suggesting that staying cypriano that. no one more serious was that this bunch of arts belong to us. the world it's very easy i'm not of you're sure all those people not sure what we're going to parks should be clear clearly established at the moment of us not when we want to shoot up an established the arctic park our doors then later knew that i mean
a loss or how obvious exchange programs where we are all there are more are 2 parts to illegal means your home and then also law because of all the goal. you know to also show you know more you know the law system leaves something that is probably going to miss your sister well we're going to start lunatic items. going to last you know saw it to be clear rush or this article. and there will be a longer. or. longer all show you know result of. our one surviving allow fado right now i want to visit one more place and this is the we can detect some tiffs and the digital project because it's
a creative thoughts about how do we share our thoughts around the welt universally and this is one way have a look have a lesson. in this project designed to is only a couple dozen canadians believe in isn't it isn't and google is a polluted scene is in at 7 and 920 this is in who was common view of the normal 4 which is the looted in indigenous of the 70s not a substitute for the petition but it's one of those tears that has been takin did variation to his insurers dish an additional beanie objects that's when i've got this shockingly short amount of time left in this program but i want to ask you just briefly. thoughts why you think this movement for the return of the name francis is happening right now male. well i think there's lots of things there in
the many many regime curators are now thinking as i say about music objects as relationships so there's been a huge change in the people working in museums i think there are many there's much more thinking about history of collections and much more willingness to to listen to the people associated with objects so i think that the world has shifted in many different ways and i think we're coming together as farmers and be said to sit at a golden moment are a hour but we have got 45 seconds i think that well go ahead was move that happening now while point some very specific political things present mycroft france went to west africa in 2017 he made a very exciting and unexpected speech saying this cannot carry on a report came out which pertained to french museums but it sent shock waves across british and german museums and then even more recently landslides matters it
exploded in the united states in the summer of 2020 there was about police brutality in europe it seems to be all about the colonial legacy and their take very quickly from here what yet for all of the printing plans is all around the world are long to nigeria what year will that make a prediction well. or see you know on 2024 years. ending on some of them is it. i love that i know t. a buck out of a nail or you chivas thank you so much for being part of this conversation now you know about the name francis u.s.c. headlines all of the time about them have a look here on my laptop you may not be out to see them in person but you can absolutely visit digital we connecting the royal art treasures and supporting everybody that will be available next year and sorting out what i see in x. time of the strain.
port moresby the capital of puffy new guinea is ranked one of the most dangerous regions in the world 101 east investigate the violent against the feeling feed on the story it's on al-jazeera. this is some paoli. despite being in germany's 2nd tier of football and without a single major trophy to its name it has become one of the world's most iconic teams and it's all down to their fans. but for them some power to transcend sport. for them football is about politics protest and music. these fans see themselves in the vanguard of a global struggle against and a phobia inequality and racism with over 500 supporters clubs outside germany
they are able to spread their message far beyond their hamburg home but some pollies history is far from innocence the club is sending out a warning about the rise in popularity of far right parties like the a.f.d. . nazis and fascists have no place in some pali today. from the al-jazeera london for all costs and tax to special guests in conversation when societies do lionel's when women ahd to hide from the only thing that benefits from this contract itself unprompted uninterrupted says are frustrated scapegoats are those who work for don't court foreigner in his south acme's well he's saying cackle like to think that there's nationalism is not as ugly as someone else's nationalists and pot to studio b. unscripted. played an important role in protecting human. face.
the usa is always of inflict the people already in the world people pay attention to what you call your now does it was very good to bring the news to the world from here. back in course russian opposition leader alexina bunny is seen in public for the 1st time since ending his hunger strike. i'm fully back to watching al jazeera live from doha also ahead americans always get up to date as you were doing america's right to. us president joe biden unveils and i'm.
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