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tv   Inside Story  Al Jazeera  February 13, 2023 8:30pm-9:01pm AST

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up in afghanistan as well as rain, persistent lighting, q 8, and southern parts of iraq. south of that, surprisingly it's really quite warm and certainly breeze means doha was up to a very wall for this child year 29 degrees walks up the summer could by the community mean big thunderstorms, lot of rain at the moment, and more coming mosaic, mozambique, and zimbabwe ah ah ah ah,
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israel says it will step up its reads against palestinians in the occupied west bank, including east jerusalem. israeli forces have killed dozens of palestinians this year. but his diplomacy enough, what needs to be done to stop the bloodshed? this is inside so ah hello and welcome to the program. i'm how much am jerome for months now? is really forces have been conducting nightly rates across the occupied west bank. this is led to repeated confrontations and the deaths of more than 45 palestinians . and at least 11 israelis so far this year. israel says the military raids are meant to stop attacks against israelis. but palestinians view it as another example of its violent occupation. and on sunday,
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prime minister benjamin netanyahu announced his government, we'll step up those nightly rates. we'll get to our guests in a moment, but 1st, this report from sally hide out in western iceland stone raises how they've been operating recently. israeli forces move in fast while palestinian fleet in the last few weeks. this is become a daily routine and occupied east jerusalem. and the rest of the occupied west bank this time, the ceiling, the family home, palestinian has then got aka. on friday, the father of 3 slammed his car into a bus stop near the illegal settlements of remote. 3 israelis were killed, including 2 sibling children. on sunday, the weekly cabinet meeting turned its attention to the frequency of these attacks 3, just 2 weeks. carried out a young palestinians, including a 13 year old, all from occupied east, jerusalem, and all operating alone. and so the new israeli government wants to send
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a strong message or to limit the appropriate answer to terror. strike hard and fur deep. now roots in our country, accordingly, the cabinet is needing today to prepare for an even broader action against those carrying out terrorism and their supporters in east jerusalem and today and samaria . like preventing as much as possible, harming goes uninvolved with family and friends of the attack and say they to all being targeted and what they've described as collective punishment through mass arrests rates and demolitions of homes. dozens of palestinians have already been killed by ready for this year alone. every month. right wing government hasn't been in power for long, but it's already facing major hurdles apart from the palestinian issue. it's also facing accusations i'm trying to undermine you traditionally and move the country away from democracy. the saturday saw the biggest nationwide anti government
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protest in weeks. more than a 145000 people stood in cold weather here, the 1st of several committed to curb to just re powers. some have called for an in to israel ruling coalition, which has fall right ultra nationalist parties, including ministers, with convictions ranging from racism to the prime minister himself. his own trial for corruption bonds. benjamin netanyahu has dismissed these protests as a refusal to accept the last election results thought a height of al jazeera west. jerusalem u. s. secretary of state antony blinkin was in west jerusalem last month where he called for urgent steps to restore calm. between the 2 sides, we continue to believe that the best way to achieve it is through preserving and then realizing the vision of 2 states. as i said to the prime minister, anything that moves us away from that vision is in our judgment detrimental to israel's long term security. and his long term identity as
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a jewish in democratic state. ah. all right, let's go ahead and bring in our guests. they're all joining us from the us. in washington, d. c. david pollock, senior fellow at the washington institute for near east policy. he's a former senior adviser to the broader middle east and the state department. in brooklyn, new york, beth miller, a political director at the jewish voice for peace action. and in arlington, virginia. again, d, a senior fellow at the middle east institute is the author of blind spot america and the palestinians from ball 4 to trump warm welcome to on thanks so much for joining us today on inside story david, let me start with you today. during his visit to israel in the occupied west bank last month, u. s. secretary of state lincoln, discuss the importance of a 2 state solution with top israeli and palestinian officials. of course this is nothing new. we hear this rhetoric from us administrations all the time. many analysts have said that the biden administration doesn't really want to engage in this conflict any longer. what would the us have to do in order to actually move
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the needle on this front? well, the us obviously does want to gauge with this conflict. and secretary lincoln's visit was one along with it in the same week of national security advisor, a director bill burns. so i would start by taking strong issue with the idea by ministration given up on this conflict or for some reason. doesn't want to do it anymore. the 2nd point to answer your question more directly with us would have to do, i think, is to continue to work with both sides with all sides actually including outside air partners, to diffuse tensions, rather than aggregate them. actions that any side would take, including incendiary rhetoric or attempts to change the status
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quo in some fundamental way. all efforts continue at lower levels to reach conditions that would allow for political progress on this issue. how did let me get your take on this u. s. government continues to reiterate the importance of a to state solution from your point of view. is this anything that is in any way realistic at this point? because there are a lot of people out there, the believe that the 2 state solution is essentially dead and that there's really no way to revive it. what's your take? i think the short answer is, is no. i think going back to the initial question about the administration and it's level of seriousness. i think it's pretty clear that this administration does not want to engage in this issue on the palestinian front. certainly it has a very deep relationship with israel and is, you know, engagement with israel is extraordinarily high levels. i think the 3 visits that we
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saw from senior us officials in the last couple of weeks were preplanned. they were not in response to the violence on the ground they had, they were already planned. and i think when the administration talks about a 2 state solution, when you have a government in israel, that is literally committed to dismantling a 2 state solution from cleaning the palestinian authority. in some cases, a number of ministers have expressed a desire to dismantle the palestinian authority itself. you have contest in the government who are extreme on on many levels, but who openly favor annexation in the west bank. this is the most right when government in israel history, i think it's, it's sort of bizarre to talk about a 2 state solution. not only because you have this extreme government in place that
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is doing its utmost to destroy a 2 state solution but, but also because of the violence on the ground. i mean, it's a little bit like standing in front of a burning building and saying, i holy support, fire safety and smoke alarms. beth, i saw you nodding along somewhat. harvard was saying it looked like you wanted to jump in. so a go ahead i, i agree with the holiday saying, i think that it's simply true that what the, by the ministration has been saying about what it wants in terms of a 2 state solution. simply just doesn't match with what they're doing. and i think the holidays right, i think that when you look at the situation on the ground, when you listen to what palestinians are saying about life under apartheid and occupation, it becomes pretty clear that the likelihood of a 2 state solution, especially under this current government but not only under this current government
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looks dead, it's hard to imagine how that could really come forward. and i think specifically the thing that we should also focus on and highlight is the hypocrisy of the by an administration. and that they continue to say that this is what they want. this is all they care about. this is what they're pushing for a 2 state solution, a 2 state solution, but their actions don't lead us there. it's the status quo right now that they are trying to maintain is a horrible, violent status quo. that's the reality of life for palestinians living under is really apartheid for palestinians. even just the last month. over 40 palestinians have been killed by israelis. and it's only the beginning of february, and this is coming on the tail end of last year, which was under a different government that was not israel's most extreme government in history. and in fact, was supposed to be a more liberal government when in fact we know that was not really the case that created the deadliest year for palestinians since the early 2,
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thousands. and so i think that we have to reckon with reality when we're talking about what's actually possible to move forward. but let me, let me just follow up with you on one point i, you know, talking about the by the ministration is, is one thing. but i want to ask you more specifically about where things stand when it comes to us. lawmakers on this issue, particularly congress. i mean, from your vantage point, do representatives, do senators want the administration to do more to try to resolve this conflict? is there political will power on this front? it's a great question. i think that what we're seeing right now at the beginning of the 118th congress, which was sworn in right around the time that this new extremist far right is railey coalition. government came into power, we are seeing that there are cracks, right in the kind of traditional bipartisan. we stand with israel no matter what consensus. and you see some senators like senator van hall in or you see members of
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the house who are speaking out more and more and starting to say that they are deeply concerned by the actions of the israeli government. however, ah, what we need to do is move past the point of deep concern. it's really good to see more and more members of congress who are speaking out and saying that they are worried about what could come down the line from this new government. however, what we really need are for members of congress to realize that what is already happening right now is already too late. it is already too much and we need not just statements of deep concern, but action and actually centered about holland who i mentioned before is an example of someone who is moving forward on things like pushing for an investigation of the killing of palestinian american journalists, jewelry and r block left, or you have members of the house, like congressmen, surely rashid a to leave, for example. representative a c i. on a presley, cory bush, other progressive house members who are increasingly willing to speak out and say
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that we need actual concrete action. meaning, restrictions on us funding conditions on us funding cutting. that's what we really need to be pushing for actions. and while the political smaller than it should be, it's growing quickly and i think will continue to grow. the more the current israeli government is being extreme and it's policies. david, i want to take a step back for a moment and look, look at some of the other things that are, that are currently going on. you know, israel's far right cabinet. they've approved the legalization of 9 illegal settler . i've posted the occupied west bank. there was a statement from prime minister benjamin netanyahu. his office has said more housing units are likely to be built in separate existing, illegal settlements. the by the administration opposes the authorization of israeli outpost. they've erred their views against new settlements. i mean the u. s. provides billions of dollars and military 8 israel. does the u. s. government not care? do they not get offended by the fact that israel essentially ignores them on this issue? the question a is actually misguided because this is
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a conflict between 2 sides, not just one side. and you can ask a similar question about why ministration, quote unquote ignores the fact that the palestinian authority continues to subsidize terrorism against innocent israeli civilians. you could ask why the, by ministration, quote unquote ignores the fact the senior members of the palestinian authority cabinet and senior members of the flat organization of which mahmoud abbas a president is the chair. why they continue to call for the dismantling. not just of occupation of israel. so the fact is that the by the restoration like every american government and every reasonable person is caught between 2 sides, each one of which has extremists, the call for the political suicide,
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the other side, the palestinians, and israelis. and so we need to ask what it is that can be done to get out of this impasse rather than point fingers only at one side in this conflict. valid, israel says the military res, across the occupied westbank are meant to stop attacks against israelis. palestinians view this as another example of its violent occupation. prime minister netanyahu announced that his government is going to step up those nightly rates. how concerned are you that this situation is only going to get worse and what are the implications of that? yeah, i mean, i think all the trend lines are certainly very disturbing. everything looks like it's getting worse. we've heard, we've seen how the casualty figures the deaths, especially of palestinian, but also of israel is, is much higher this year and we're only in february then it was last year. so
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everything is moving, all the trend lines are negative in terms of people's rights on the ground in terms of basic safety and security and in terms of any political outlook remotely resembling a 2 state solution on this question of both sides. so i think we have to bear in mind that there is no parity between the 2 sides. israel is an occupying power. israel is the most powerful military in the world and it is enforcing its occupation through violence. occupation is by definition violent and coercive. it can only be sustained by force of arms. and so when we see this israeli raids, that's precisely what these is rate these daily army raids are about there, about enforcing a military occupation over a subjugated population. that has been living under martial law for 55
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years. occasionally there are about resistance. sometimes that resistance is violent. sometimes it's not. but it's always predictable when you have an occupation that has to use more and more violence in order to sustain itself. so the difference between the israeli side and the palestinian side isn't just one huge power, a signatures we talked about extremists. the difference is that the extremists are actually in the israeli government, must move basses. government is quite ineffective, quite weak. but you will be hard pressed to find a more moderate set of policies and individuals than those who currently reside in in rama law and rule over the palestinian authority. so i think we have to bear in mind these enormous differences. and so this is one
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of the key reasons that the administration doesn't want to engage because it understands that engaging pushing this process along necessarily means putting pressure on israel. and that is something for domestic political reasons, mainly, but also for ideological reasons. the by the administration has 0 interest in doing best, sir. we heard sir site us report earlier in the show. santa pointed out that you know, this is israel's most right wing government. it hasn't been in power for long, but that is already facing a lot of hurdles. not just about the palestinian issue. it's also facing accusations of trying to undermine the judiciary. accusations of steering the country away from democracy. what's all this going to mean going forward for the potential, you know, attempts at resolution of these really passing in conflict and,
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and essentially for the government there. i think what's happening right now is that the mask, it's fully coming off. israel has never been a democracy for all of the people that the government rules over. it has always been a country that is in upholding apartheid and that is a pressing palestinians. and that has not been a democracy for all of the people who live under its government. all this current coalition government has basically sped up the process of exposing that and it's terrifying and has met increasing violence and will continue to mean increasing violence. what i think that means though, what it should mean is that the international community, including in the us should be responding in kind, right? if the israeli government is being very clear about the fact that in, in reality there is not really democracy here at any vestiges of pieces of the government that we're democratic for jewish israeli citizens, for example,
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are falling apart and coming away under kind of production in these attacks on, on those pieces of the government that were democratic, the u. s. government, for example, should be responding in kind what you always hear, not just from the bite administration, but from any past administration really here in the us has been israel, the democratic ally, israel's are most important democratic ally, various versions of that. it is simply, it has never actually been true. and right now it is very blatantly not true. and so if this government continues down this path, this is the thing that when secretary blinking visit at israel, this is the only thing he really wanted to talk about. he wanted to talk about judiciary forms, concern basically that israel looked on democratic it would make it very difficult for the bite administration to keep supporting it. it seems pretty clear to anyone paying attention that this government doesn't really care about that. and so if
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they continue down the path where they are increasingly exposing themselves and increasingly taking off the math and showing that israel is just a violent apartheid regime, in fact, and not a democrat, a democratic ally, then what should be happening is that country should responding in kind, the bite administration should respond to israel as it would to our country as an democratic and violently oppressing the people who live under its rule. and that should mean using the pieces of leverage that it hasn't matter most. for example, the $3800000000.00 and military funding that we set in that country every single year. david, if there is some way to, to revive talks, whether it's talks about a potential to stay solution or, or some form of negotiation over trying to stop the bloodshed. how much of a role does the us need to play in mediating this? and are there other international actors who can play a role? i think other international actors can and are playing a role. the question is,
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are they playing a constructive role or destructive role? so people and countries that support hamas, for example, which is pledge to destroy israel by violent means, and never to agree to peace or a 2 state solution. those people are playing a destructive role. people who support negotiations between the 2 parties and i find it ironic that someone who claims to represent your organization calling for peace and justice would only accuse one side of the conflict of any problems or violations or issues. people who want to play a constructive role from the outside, whether it's the u. s. government or countries in europe or era countries would try to get both sides. israelis and palestinians,
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whatever their governments and whatever their failings on both sides to negotiate with each other. and to diffuse tensions rather than inflame them. so you do see some of our governments playing that role in certain aspects of the conflict. so that egypt, for example, has played a very important role in trying to restrain how must, from firing missiles and rockets, innocent israeli civilians on the other side of the border. jordan has played a constructive role in trying to point out that actually the status quo on a temple now where jordan is actively involved is being maintained by both sides so far and to warn against any attempts to infringe upon that and inflamed tensions. and that's the kind of role that i think i would be look, or rather than people who her all accusations, only one side or the other,
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and think that somehow that is going to help resolve the conflict. beth, look to me like you want to respond to i'm going to give you a chance to do so right now. i think what we just heard is an incredibly over simplistic idea of what piece actually entails and how we actually get to piece he's and justice go hand in hand. and these ideas of how we move forward cannot mean that you are simply a racing power dynamics. entirely, that is not actually how things move forward or how we reach adjust sustainable future in which all people are living in equality and an injustice. we cannot highly mentioned this early. there are power differentials at play here. you cannot simply say there are 2 sides, there are many sides and they all need to come together and talk. we've tried that before and it led us to where we are now. the truth is there is one government that holds all of the power and that is the israeli government,
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and they are ruling over depressing palestinians. and so i think it's important that we know that the accusations that are being hurled, for example, the idea that israel's in apartheid government are things that the overwhelming majority of the international human rights community are saying. this is not just some people here or there are some countries here are there, there are human rights loc, amnesty international, the united nations. this is something that has been looked into proven investigated, not to mention the fact that israeli human rights organizations are saying it about their own government and palestinians that are decades are saying it as well. so i just want to know that in fact, these are quite expected ideas except for by countries like the united states, which refused to acknowledge what the reality on the ground really is. one issue i want to get into a little bit is to ask you how big a problem right now is the disunity among palestinian leadership. when you have leadership fractured between the policy and the authority and the oxford was bank
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and us. and i mean, what does that do when it comes to trying to resolve the situation? well, obviously it's, it's very destructive. i mean the old adage about a house divided against itself cannot stand. i think certainly applies the case of the palestinian. they've been deeply divided, lyrically geographically, institutionally for, for many years now it's been since 2007. so that division has been absolutely debilitating and had staffed this palestinian leadership of any ability to be effective either as a negotiator or as a governing power. and it's also staffed, it's legitimacy. and i think one of the reasons we're seeing this sion of violence and this armed insurgency that is concentrated particularly in the northern west bank, but not exclusively is precisely because of the ineffective of both leaderships in
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ramallah and, and gaza. and so you see, palestinians are saying how masses, way of doing things, isn't going to work. i bass is approach. i've just sitting around waiting for the political and diplomatic stars to align perfectly in israel and the international community to restart negotiations. that's not going to happen either. and so it's only when the occupation feels that it has to pay a price to maintaining the status quo. that it will, that things might change. and so that's precisely why we're seeing that what is happening now on the ground. and just to go back to the best point, we have to look if you're talking about peace, you have to look at the drivers of conflict and not simply put groups of people around a negotiating table and say, talk to each other power. a symmetry is one of the key factors that drives this
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conflict because you've got one power that can impose its will on the ground without negotiations. whether it's through settlements or state violence, the army incursions killings, mass arrest. israel can do all of these things unilaterally. it has no need for negotiations, and that is what drives conflict, because you have one side that can impose its will forcibly on the other side. so it's meaningless to talk about negotiations. i think in this context then everybody understand that. all right, well we have run a times, we're going to have to leave the conversation there. thanks so much. all of our guests. david pollock, beth miller and khalid l. 20. and thank you for watching because see the program again any time by visiting our website at 0 dot com. and for further discussion could our facebook page that's facebook dot com, forward slash ha inside stuart, you can also join the conversation on twitter. our handle is at
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