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tv   Newsnight  BBC News  February 21, 2017 11:15pm-12:01am GMT

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the first minister, carwynjones, has also written to borisjohnson, urging the foreign secretary to pursue the matter with the us authorities. clearly, we have had donald trump's decision in the us to bar muslims travelling into the us. although that policy has been suspended, it seems likely that this may be a consequence of that. both the us embassy and the white house have been asked to comment. back at the school in neath, mr miah says he would like to travel to the us one day, but for now he continues to wait for answers as to why on this occasion, he was treated differently to everyone else. now it's time for newsnight with evan davis.
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an ecstatic crowd in london wait to cheer a fresh face young politician in a huge rally, bedecked with red white and blue flags. he's emmanuel macron, and he's running for french president. not sincejeremy corbyn‘s leadership rallies has there been such enthusiasm for a political leader in the uk, and even british liberal remainers are pinning their hopes on him. we'll ask two british centrist politicians if they are for him, and if his politics are for us. also tonight, is this the reason why hiv infection rates are plummeting among gay men? we went back over all our new hiv diagnoses and each month we looked, it was the same. and we just couldn't believe it. but then we asked our colleagues in other clinics in london and they said the same thing.
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so we thought it is true, it's real. and is the nhs the last bastion of communism? four hours for emergency care, two months to start cancer treatment and six months for a routine operation. let's stop trying to fix it, let's totally change the model. hello. french politics has never been more interesting. for one thing, marine le pen is the leading candidate in opinion polls for the first round of the presidential election. no—one can dismiss her as fringe anymore. but her opponents make the race interesting too. in the final round of election, le pen‘s rival is expected to win. and the leading opponent — just — is emmanuel macron. he is interesting because he has the potential to redefine liberal politics in europe. he's young, he's an outsider with a new party, and today,
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he was in london. his message might appeal to the many french voters in the uk, but for that dispirited group of british liberal remainers here, he seems to have quite a bit of appeal too. they'd queued around the corner to see the french politician everybody‘s talking about. is he the europeanjustin trudeau? is he a potential beachhead in the fight against the populist far right of marine le pen? macron! look who's here. there is a lot of liberal hope being invested in his politics. he looked very comfortable here in london, and in a way he fits the grand liberal british tradition. he is socially liberal, believes in same—sex marriage. he is economically liberal, he's against the french 35—hour week. and he is an unashamed globalist.
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he is the antithesis of donald trump. what i like best about macron is that he is not of the right. not of the far right. where we are now in politics, anybody who can win who is not of the right and who will fight off the right is an asset. it's a second—order issue precisely what policies are, what we know is that he's not racist, he is pro—european, he is socially liberal. and he will fight off some of the dark forces in france and across europe. hello to everyone. this is a message for american researchers... he has a canny political sense for appealing to liberals. i do know how your new president now has decided to jeopardise your budget, your initiatives, as he is extremely sceptical about climate change. please, come to france. you are welcome. it's your nation. we like innovation. now, the french election
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comes to a showdown between the top two candidates. current poll ratings say he would be one of them and then he goes on to win. which raises an interesting question. if he is so popular in france, why isn't there a british version of him? could he or his ilk make it over here? in some ways, our old party loyalties disguise the changing patterns of politics here. conservative anna soubry is surely closer to say, the centrist alanjohnson in labour, than she is to jacob rees—mogg, in her own party. alanjohnson must be surely closer to her or to nick clegg in the lib dems than he is to his own leaderjeremy corbyn. and you could even argue a slew of big—name conservative and labour mps are natural allies these days. and they have a minority segment of the public behind them. over the last year it is clear the old ideas about left and right are not sufficient to fully understand politics in britain, in france and across developed democracies.
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and so in yougov we have looked at the new tribes emerging from politics. and we have found that with 37% in france and 37% in britain, it's the pro—eu, internationalist moderates, this centrist group, who are actually the largest single group. and they support the eu, they support controlled immigration and they support a globalised world. and the question now is can macron in france or indeed any candidate in britain or france sufficiently capture enough of those people to win? the problem for british centrists is not just that they're stuck in three different parties, the voting system makes it hard for a new party to break through. a new approach to politics... memories of the old sdp, a macron—esque party of the early ‘80s, instil fear in those wanting to break the mould. it came close. but not nearly close enough. as for macron, no one really knows if he is a winner yet, let alone a good president.
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but for liberals, feeling pretty battered, he is reviving their spirits. well, conservative ed vaizey was culture minister from 2010—16 and labour mp alison mcgovern is the chair of progress — a labour think tank which has been associated with new labour in the past, and now describes itself as an organisation which "aims to promote a radical and progressive politics for the 21st century." we've got you both here because we think you are pretty similar in your politics even know you are in different parties. you are going to concoct an argument between yourselves. do you like macron, alison? tempting though it is to draw conclusions about what's happening in france, the parallels are limited because there is a totally different system in france. the internal dynamic that happens because of their system isn't necessarily applicable. i'm keen that we have lots of european cooperation, despite brexit, because my constituents‘ jobs depend on it but having a direct read
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across from what is happening in france isn't really possible. but basically, you know, on the big issues, you are in the same places? on things like the idea that in a world where most companies of any size are multinational, i think that european cooperation is the right thing and i'm pretty sure he would agree. i think he would. yeah. let's put the same question to you, you have met macron? i spoke to him a couple of times, once when he was wooing tech companies in london about a year ago, when it was still a part of the european union and french companies were flowing over here. he's very charismatic and i like a lot of what he says and a lot of his policies for france. for me as a centre—right politician, very attractive
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policies, attacking the 35— hour week, deregulating the labour market, which urgently needs doing. whether he will succeed if he wins is another question. interesting to see polly toynbee endorsing him as the only backstop to stop marine le pen. he's in that position by accident because the fillon campaign has imploded but would she say the same thing about that, supporting anybody who would stop le pen? she is more enthusiastic about macron. let's get to the real gist of this, should you be in the same party? no, no. absolutely not. i'm kind of — i'm a left—wing politician. as much as i think we should modernise our ideas and look to the future, for me, the nature of politics is about where you come from, what you're shaped by, who you listen to, and that's very different across the two parties. we have a different system in britain. yeah, i understand the conservative party and labour party are different, but i'm wondering
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if you are closer to ed than jeremy corbyn. let's be absolutely honest here. i'm a labour politician and i walk through the lobbies withjeremy corbyn to oppose a lot of what the tories did which has put the economy in a mess that when it came to the brexit vote, they had to protest against david cameron and george osborne for what they have done. i'm afraid ijust i don't buy the idea that, you know, there's a sort of centre where we are all the same. we have a different system. you aren't all the same, it's just that the differences between new two are smaller than those differences between your leaders. the natural coalition may not be between your leader, but it may more naturally be between you and other people in the centre. so where i think there is an important point to that argument is that the debate we are in in britain at the moment, is like, everything in
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politics is being flown to the ends. —— blown. brexit seems to have given a lot of power to people on the hard right and the far right and i think that's problematic because they don't represent the interests of the majority of people in our country. getting issues like, you know, schools funding, things like that, on the agenda can be really difficult because brexit is sweeping everything else out the way. that is where i think there's a very good point. do you think you should be in the same party as alison, ed? i agree on the point that brexit has thrown up talk of some kind of crazy political realignment. maybe there will be a brexit—remainer realignment over the next there years. but people have been talking about a third way for 20
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years or so. people forget, there's a tendency, especially for remainers like me to characterise brexiteers as these insular, non—globalist parochial politicians but boris johnson is a liberal, open the globalist, michael gove keeps a copy of tony blair's autobiography on his bedside table and refers to blair as the master. so then why on earth did they find themselves campaigning alongside the likes of nigel farage, if that's true? this is what i don't understand about the conservative party. campaigns can make unusual bedfellows as we see polly toynbee backing emmanuel macron, she properly disagrees with his policies, to prevent something. remainers like me must understand why people voted for brexit. i feel very strongly the way it has shifted, over the last few weeks. the remainers had given ground. not saying we are going to fight the referendum all overagain, we're saying we want a relationship with europe and we will campaign for that. that reaches back to borisjohnson and michael gove who believe in free trade, open trade, and also, david davis in tomorrow's times
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is talking about keeping immigration levels high because of the skills we need. it will lead to a million arguments about whether we should be detaching ourselves or not. the argument isn't over. the nature of our relationship. it isn't clear what those people really think. you say they are interested in openness and working with our european colleagues but they've done nothing to bring about that vision. isn't the real vision that you as a centralist, remainer tory, you are harbouring hopes that the tory party is essentially an open party, socially liberal, a macron party, you hope that theresa may is the british macron? i think theresa may can be the british macron. if i was going to critique the last six months, and i said this in the debate on the article 50 bill, i hope the government changes its rhetoric and recognises that 48% of people voted to stay in europe because they have that globalist and open agenda. i think theresa may has that opportunity. i think the article 50 bill has
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given her exactly what she perhaps didn't want, an opportunity to rally people behind the fact that we are leaving europe and forcing people like me to accept that and say, what is our relationship with europe? now is a chance for the government to build beaches to people who have these concerns. in that debate a number of reasonable amendments were put down to the bill which would shape, make for representations on behalf or people who voted league and remain about the brexit they wanted and all i can remember is the tory mps cheering as it was announced that the bill had passed without amendment. rhetoric is important but actually, deeds matter too and we're going to face the kind of brexit that is really damaging to british interests. it used to be said the sdp split the vote on the left and kept the tories in power. is it possible to say the tory labour duopoly has split the votes of the centrists?
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i think all political parties are a coalition because of the system that we have in this country, first past the post and that dictates the coalition. i would not be in the same party as alison because i do not think the state is the answer to our problems or higher spending or taxes. but the funny thing is i have watched tories in power over the past six years running down public services and doing real damage to their economic prospects for ordinary people. for most people who think about politics for two minutes a week, those are the things they want us to focus on. thank you both. there has been a dramatic and under—reported change to the number of new hiv infections among gay men in the uk. the good news is that in 2016, the rate of infection plummeted. it's not because a vaccine
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was invented, it appears to be down to new uses of drugs. quickly treating those who are recently diagnosed as hiv positive, stops them being so infectious. and then there is the use of pre—exposure prophylaxis — or prep. a drug for treating hiv turns out to be good at preventing it too. the moment i was told i had hiv, it was confusing, i suppose. they said to me, your test has come back positive. and so without saying, you are hiv—positive, it took me a couple of moments to really understand what that meant. i never want anyone to go through what i had to go through in 2014. i almost died, i was in hospital for a week after my diagnosis. we first looked at the graphs, we thought no, it can't be true. so we went back over
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all our new hiv diagnoses and each month we looked, it was the same. and we just couldn't believe it. but then we asked our colleagues in other clinics in london and they said the same thing. and so we thought, it is true, it's real. there is actually truly a reduction in new hiv diagnoses. and i can't get across to you how excited we were because initially, we didn't believe it. but now we know that it's true. the most significant thing that's happened in that time is that we found that a lot of people who are really high risk who come to our clinic were taking prep. so prep means basically giving people who are really high risk for hiv two drugs that are used to treat hiv, to stop
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them from catching it. and recently, in the last year, 18 months or so, increasing numbers of people are taking prep. we've discovered this because they come into our clinics and we ask them what medication they are taking and they tell us they are taking prep. which they are getting online. now over the course of my lifetime it's going to cost around £300,000, to effectively keep me alive. and so by providing prep, then it would have cost the nhs maybe a couple of thousand. you know, i definitely would have been taking prep had it been available to me back then. and yeah, i probably wouldn't have hiv now. so yeah, is there a danger that with prep,
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sti rates might go up? yes, there are certainly is. and there are some studies that have demonstrated this. it's important, though, to recognise that sti rates are high and have been going up for quite a long time. and were going up before prep became available. so i don't think we can say with any certainty that prep is responsible for the current increases that we are seeing in sti. i don't think that now there is any doubt at all that it works. and i think what now has to happen is that as many people as possible who are at risk, should have access to it. you think that there might be a time, actually reasonably soon, where we won't get any new hiv diagnoses? well, i can't say how soon, i would hope soon, but i think yes. our producerjames clayton
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compiled that report. matthew hodson is the executive director of aids charity nam aids map, which shares information about hiv and aids. which is more important is it the prep which is not yet available on the nhs or the treatment of new cases much earlier so they're less infectious? both are important, you need to recognise if people are treated they're not an infection risk to their sexual partners and this is important. but we have been rolling out treatment on diagnoses since 2012. and the very dramatic drop we have seen in new hiv infections last year, it feels it cannotjust be about that because it must be something new. the thing that has dramatically changed is people accessing prep. and they're mostly doing it by self prescription,
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just getting online. it is not yet available on the nhs so some websites have been set up grassroots activists, and they're putting people in touch with suppliers of generic prep drugs. which incidentally are cheaper than perhaps the nhs would pay. considerably cheaper than the nhs would be paying. the nhs would say why would we want to buy this drug for people, especially as we would pay full price, when it appears to be working anyway because people willjust go and buy it themselves. we have seen that dramatic drop which is fantastic news, really exciting. but it is only reaching those people who are well—informed, and who also have income to say i'm going to spend about £40 a month and if you considered the number of people quite young gay men for example still being diagnosed
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with hiv or perhaps £40 per month is quite a considerable barrier to them. it is exciting because we are turning a corner now and you want to everything we have got at it because we could make a huge difference. you definitely want the nhs to make it available on prescription for those who say they want it? if it could be rolled out to the people who would benefit most then you're going to have the power to end the epidemic. how much does a license people to go off and behave with unsafe sex because they say i have taken prep and i do not need it and thus perhaps get hepatitis c or any number of sexually transmitted infections. condoms have been a pillar of hiv infection since the 1980s and they still play an enormous role obviously. but we now have this opportunity where we can do something which is going
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to increase our prevention power. and we could use this. the other thing is if people were getting prep on the nhs then they would be tied into clinical services and that means they would be regularly screened and if they had an sti there would be diagnosed and treated. it is one of the problems we have is people accessing prep in the wild they may not be getting regularly tested for stis. i can hear a lot of people saying the nhs is basically does not have enough money, that is the commonly held view, would this be a priority thing to spend money on, basically recreational sex, as opposed to many other things the nhs could spend money on. the kind of money we are looking at, i mean i think figures have been branded a round of about 20 million, and it sounds like a lot of money but if you think it is under 1% of the nhs budget.
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but also it is cost—effective and with the enormous production we have seen in diagnosis it is more cost—effective even than we thought because it costs a lot to treat someone living with hiv. and unless people are infecting other people because they do not have it, how successful or significant has this been for other categories at risk of hiv, said drug users? i think the big drops we have seen so far have been particularly amongst gay and bisexual men and that is partly because it has been a grassroots activism that has pushed this. i think what we have done is proved that the concept works and i think that increases the urgency of rolling it out to other high risk groups like people from sub—saharan africa, trans women and injecting drug users. thank you for that. and if you have any questions for matthew we're going to be continuing to talk about this topic on our facebook live page
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immediately after the programme. you sending your questions and i will read them from my mobile phone and put them to matthew. that will be straight after the programme for about 20 minutes. time now for viewsnight. you know the rules. it's a spot with views in. today, it's the turn of oncologist karol sikora with his take on the national health service. the nhs is failing. let's change the model. health care systems everywhere are struggling. as we sit here, peers are still debating the brexit bill. let's take a look at the house of lords. from here to eternity, the talk goes on. but the expectation is that the peers will not get in the way, and the bill to allow the government to invoke article 50 will proceed. but the lords might propose an amendment on the rights of eu citizens currently residing in the uk. many are known to feel
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strongly about it — it will probably come up next week, rather than tonight. but let's not wait. how should britain deal with continental residents here? i'm joined by sunder katwala, director of the think tank british future, which was responsible for a cross—party inquiry which looked into securing the status of eea nationals in the uk. but you get chaos and that is why the bolsheviks could walk in into this has legal status. you could use article 50 as a cut—off point but then you have to take stock of people who were there. how do i know? we do not have a population register all were these people are. if you have been here exercising your free movement right, if you have been here exercising yourfree movement right, we have yourfree movement right, we have your footprints. in data
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yourfree movement right, we have yourfootprints. in data bases. one pa rt yourfootprints. in data bases. one part of the solution is instead of sending people back to every previous employer they have had, if someone previous employer they have had, if someone has been here employed, paying taxes, if the government systems talk to each other, the people that have been here five yea rs, people that have been here five years, you would find a lightweight to clear the ec cases. it sounds like quite a problem. how many permanent resident claims? is the immigration department handling?‘ million? the rate tripled immediately after the referendum so it is 100 times more than what we have been doing so the system is not up have been doing so the system is not up to it. what are you proposing that you do? if it isn't up to it,
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that implies you could add another 10%, another few office blocks. we know that immigration systems haven't worked well in the past, the idea that every european should send in their passport isn't exactly the best start to brexit. we've got some local nationality checking services where if you're making their passport application you can go with your documents, they can look at the system and they can send you home to get something if you haven't got it. that could be the green light to the easy cases and let the home office deal with the complicated cases. there could be complicated and, if we have sent people to prison then we would exclude those people. it's up to the government to identify the people they have sent to prison and if they get it wrong they will be trouble. when you guys looked at this was it your view that only people who speak english should be allowed to remain, that some kind of test should be applied? i think the character and criminal record status we have for settlement should stay. the english language citizenship test, if you are a european national who was to become a citizen, jump
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through the same hoops, but we are trying to guarantee the same rights you had before the referendum. so we wouldn't apply a language test in that case. let's suppose that i'm polish and have been sending money back and in 2018, 20191 think i don't want to go back, i want to bring them over here? that would mean a lot of extra people coming in after article 50 but observing the rights of a person who is already here. it gets complicated. it does to a certain extent because there are very few areas where european rights have superior rights to british citizens, they don't have the income threshold if they want to marry someone. we thought the fair thing to do was to allow those rights to exist for a five—year phasing in period and then to phase them out so everyone is on the same status. the principle is that people
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who were already here and not expecting the change should have the same status that they have now, that is something that all parties agreed to. everyone agrees that is the right thing to do. four people including those abroad are still waiting to hear that is what we will organise with the european union. thank you forjoining us. life is sometimes brutal as we know, but it is turning out particularly so for the wonders of brutalist architecture in this country. tower blocks and other of these concrete structures are being flattened. for councils, it seems easier to remove them than refurbish them. and developers follow on behind, putting up flats for private buyers. but all this is happening just as many are finally appreciating a certain beauty in brutalism. our culture editor, stephen smith reports. # bang bang! these buildings have now reached a certain
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age and are now quite old, they need to be renovated, or sometimes it is cheaper to knock them down. newsreader: here are the people. we must build and plan for people. homes fit for heroes. and theirfamilies. it was a recurring rhetorical trope after the great conflicts of the last century. nothing is too good for people. the people are the greatest capital that any nation possesses. often the solution looked a bit like this. the tower block, the high—rise with its pavements in the sky. it's like being in heaven up here because we've always been poor people. we've had so many good friends up here. and these places are just lovely for us. what excites me about them is that they were designed with the real
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kind of effort going into what makes the place good to live, what makes it a really pleasant place to grow up, to bring yourfamily up, you know, to live an urban life where you're not cut off from your neighbours. where you bump into people, where you have quick and easy access to transport and to shops. but it wasn't long before the first wrinkles appeared in all that concrete. if only wrinkles were the end of it. i mean in winter, his quilt is wet through. i'm going to put him in with us again because his bedroom is damp. what to think about the flats? stick a bomb under them. here comes the dampness dragon! come and help kill the dampness dragon! we knew what to do. justly or otherwise,
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some made a link between the concrete jungle and the law of the jungle. the thamesmead estate was a backdrop to clockwork orange, as the writers —— the thamesmead estate was a backdrop to a clockwork orange, as the writers saw something dystopian in the architecture. couldn't get away with it! in get carter, michael caine worked off his anger in the trinity square shopping centre in gateshead. don't look for it now, it isn't there any more. feel free to leave the room if you think the term "iconic" is overused, but that's what they call this tower in west london which was completed in 1972 and is now a grade 2 listed building. some housing campaigners are not impressed.
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the problem pretty immediately was that the management costs were sky—high to make it work, lifts were being vandalised almost immediately, it became known as the tower of terror because of the high risks of rape in the stairwell. that has been managed better. that moniker, thankfully, has gone. the problem with a lot but not all of the post—war architecture is that they were cutting across 2000 years of city—making and organic knowledge of how people want to live and where people are happy and power. in the last 20, 30 years we've started being able to research that thanks to big data and a greater capacity to understand where people work. what we've learnt is that you tend to know your neighbours less well, you have less trusting relationships with them. the architects of the alexandra road estate in north london apparently
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modelled it on the sinuous curves of the georgian terraces of bath. what's it like to live here? we have decent people, its well—kept, decent. you don't mind the concrete? no, i don't, i love it. the concrete, it is an acquired taste, i'd say. but it's not horrible, actually, it's quite comfortable and inside, the spaces are marvellous. would you fancy one of these? i don't know, too many windows for me. a lot to keep clean. absolutely. as if to prove that appreciation for brutalism is growing in some quarters it was recently adorned by tom hiddleston's own desirable superstructure. i'm so sorry! i'll survive.
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i don't doubt it. you are an excellent specimen. i thought you were empty. i've just moved in. it's all too late to save this estate in east london, destined for the wrecker‘s ball. most of the critics, most of the strongest critics of post—war architecture are people who don't live in it. buildings like this can be a wonderful place to live. the failures that are so often perceived as being attached to post—war architecture is really the disparity between the grand utopian aspirations and the reality which can never meet the future that was imagined for many of these buildings. that's it for tonight. tomorrow we will be in stoke
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ahead of the by—election. don't forget i'll be on facebook live in a couple of minutes taking your questions with our guest on falling hiv rates. but before we go... we leave you with news that bbc1 is to re—examine the sound mixing on their new sunday night drama ss—gb, after the 90% of the population with cheap tvs complained they couldn't hear the dialogue. here's a sample. those passes you took are just about the most valuable piece of paper a foreigner can be given. a foreigner? that's not how i meant it. yes, it is. toa to a sister channel, we have arranged have the programme redubbed. the germans who those passes you do is about the most valuable piece of paper in foreigner can be given. a foreigner? that's not how i meant it. yes, it is. that is what we are. get your hands
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off me, it gestapo! have you been drinking? so what? good evening. we started off this week with the mild weather. next, for many of us, there is some wild weather on the for many of us, there is some wild weather on the way. for many of us, there is some wild weather on the way. a for many of us, there is some wild weather on the way. a couple for many of us, there is some wild weather on the way. a couple of storm systems moving through, each one bringing some weight and some windy weather. the first one moving through the moment, through the rest of the night. this airy of low to the north of the british isles, where we have hardly squeeze isobars across the northern scotland. we could see gusts overnight in scotland. 70 or 80 mph. it could be a tricky commute across many parts of scotland, particularly in the northern half. cold here as well, with wintry showers. not a bad start
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tomorrow to northern ireland in england. but then across into east anglia, this weather front district across. this will bring some heavy burst of rain and some gusty winds. to the south of the weather front, it is mild. ten or 11 degrees to start the day. damp, murky, drizzly. the weather does not move much throughout the day. wales will see a lot of red tomorrow. they could cause want to problems. to the north of that, when seizing. to the south of that, when seizing. to the south of the weather front, temperatures up of the weather front, temperatures up to about 40 degrees. to the north, it will be chilly, but bright with spells of sunshine. through wednesday night, we see this weather front continue to move its way northwards and eastwards. again, this airy of low pressure winding itself up. and this is going to be thursday's weather maker. the met office has named this storm doris. it is the fourth named storm of the season. it is the fourth named storm of the season. they said to be prepared for the strength of the winds. there could be destructive conditions on
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thursday. strongest conditions across wales and east anglia. 70 or 80 mph in the when garcia. but only winds, there is no also in the forecast. in northern ireland and northern england, but particularly in scotland. could be ten centimetres of snow, as well as the wind is not, rain, and lots of it. maybe enough to close some localised flooding in some places. that may cause. whichever were you slice it, thursday issued to be a stormy day. it will then turned decidedly chilly in the north. the good news friday. much quieter. dry weather and bluster weather towards the end of the day. temperatures will be five to 10 degrees. it stays pretty u nsettled to 10 degrees. it stays pretty unsettled as we moved into the weekend. but if you're to check all the weather warnings and there are plenty in force, you can always do that on hello, everyone. i'm rico hizon in
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singapore. hong kong former chief executive finds out shortly if his conviction for misconduct in a public office will see him taken off to jail. the white house gives the nation ‘s immigration policy as sweeping a rewrite with many now subject to deportation. under beta sharma in london. a british suicide bomber radicalise in guantanamo bay. washington, dc says farewell to a beloved panda back to china. live from our studios in singapore and london, this is bbc world news — it's
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