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tv   BBC Election Debate 2017  BBC News  May 31, 2017 7:30pm-9:01pm BST

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day eight days to go before polling day onjune eight days to go before polling day on june the 8th. eight days to go before polling day onjune the 8th. here now is the bbc election debate life with mishal hussain. to make their pitch to our audience here, and to you at home. welcome to the bbc election debate 2017. applause good evening and welcome to senate house at the university of cambridge for 90 minutes of question, answer and live debate. we invited the leaders of seven parties to take part, some are here, others chose to send senior representatives. those are here are... tim farron, leader of the liberal democrats. jeremy corbyn, leader of the labour party. caroline lucas, co—leader of the green party. the leader of plaid cymru, leanne wood. for the conservatives, the home secretary, amber rudd. paul nuttall, the leader of ukip. and angus robertson, the deputy leader of the snp. applause
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our audience was selected by a leading opinion polling company to ensure they are representative of the country as whole. they support different parties, some are undecided voters, and they are also equally split along the lines of last year's eu referendum — half voted to leave the eu and half to remain. and if you'd like to join in the debate at home, you can do so on twitter using the hashtag #bbcdebate. we start with opening statements from all seven politicians, the order of which was decided by the drawing of lots. first, the leader of plaid cymru, leanne wood. theresa may called this election because she's taking you for granted. she won't turn up to these debates, because her campaign of soundbites is falling apart. unlike theresa may, i am not afraid to defend my policies, my principles, my values.
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plaid cymru exists to defend and build up our country. in wales, it is plaid cymru that stands for fairness and equality for everyone who chooses to call wales home. for a hundred years, wales has voted labour. it hasn't stopped tory rule. labour in wales have their own manifesto and are airbrushing their leader out of their campaign. when plaid cymru has tried to ban zero—hours contracts, and to stop the bedroom tax, welsh labour has voted against us. it's time we stopped doing what we have always done. let us instead give wales a voice. give plaid cymru a mandate. elect a strong team of plaid cymru mps to fight for a successful future for wales. caroline lucas for the green party is next. onjune 8th you can lay the foundations for a new kind of politics.
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your vote can change everything. imagine this — a country that leads the world in clean energy, not fracks its way to climate chaos. a country that spends its money on hospitals and schools, not nuclear bombs. a country that welcomes child refugees, not blocks them at the border. a country that's open to its neighbours, not isolated from them. a country that celebrates diversity, not fears it. a country that's friends with the good guys, not the climate criminals and the dodgy dictators. a country that cares for those with dementia, not one that taxes them. we've shown time and again, you don't need the keys to number 10 to open the door to change. on june 8th let's unlock that door together. fearless green mps in opposition to the tories. independent green mps holding labour's feet to the fire. pioneering green mps to make our economy fit for tomorrow.
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we decide the future by what we do now. vote green onjune 8th. for the conservatives, amber rudd. in eight days you have a vital choice to make about who you want to lead the country. do you want theresa may and her team, a team that has a plan? it is one that doesn't duck the hard choices about living within our means. but it is also a plan that will build on the success we have delivered. success in cutting the deficit, stabilising the economy, getting more people into employment. it will build on our commitment to having a country the works for everyone. there are seven of us here tonight, and i am sure you will hear plenty of bluff, bravado and tempting, shiny election promises. but the only question to consider is who should be in number 10 to steer britain
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to a brighter future? jeremy corbyn, with his money—tree wish list manifesto and no plan for brexit. 0r theresa may, and her record of delivery, with her clear plan for brexit, and the strong team behind her who can make sure the country gets to that brighter future. and next it'sjeremy corbyn. tonight i'm here to debate the future of our country. the question in this election is whether we want a country for the many or just the few. the state of our nhs, our children's schools, social care for older people, our young people saddled with debt, none of that is remotely strong or stable. and now the conservatives want five more years of cuts to our vital public services to fund tax hand—outs for the wealthy few. labour will make very different choices. there will be no tax rises for 95% of taxpayers. but we will ask those with the most to contribute a bit more
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so no one is held back from achieving their potential. onjune 8th you have a choice — more cuts in services and living standards with the conservatives, or vote labour to transform britain for the many, not the few. the ukip leader is paul nuttall. ukip will always put the interests of british people first. whether that is prioritising our nhs and social care over a bloated and ineffective foreign aid programme, or protecting those who are most at risk from wage compression because of mass unskilled immigration. ukip will always stand up for those who have been let down and left behind by the westminster elites. a government'sjob, first and foremost, is to protect the public. our police, our intelligence services, our armed forces and our border force must be given the tools and resources they need to do theirjobs effectively. but money isn't everything. politicians must show leadership.
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they must, without fear or favour, ensure that our way of life, our values and our democracy is secure. i believe in our great country, i believe in british values and our way of life. as you will see tonight, ukip believes in britain. the deputy leader of the snp, angus robertson. this election is about the kind of country we want to be. now, more than ever, scotland needs strong snp voices at westminster. and snp mps will work with others to promote fairness across all of the uk. a vote for the snp is a vote against tory cuts that will harm our public services and push many more hard—working families into poverty. it's a vote forjobs and against an extreme brexit which will put jobs and living standards at risk. it's a vote to reinforce the right of the people of scotland to decide their own future. we can't afford a tory government which thinks it can do anything it
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likes without being held to account. and we can't give theresa may a blank cheque to pursue any kind of brexit no matter the cost. in scotland the snp is the only party strong enough to stand up to the tories. vote snp for a strong voice for scotland at westminster. that voice is needed now more than ever. and finally for our opening statements, the leader of the liberal democrats, tim farron. where do you think theresa may is tonight? take a look out your window. she might be out there sizing up your house to pay for your social care. and why do you think she called this election? she wants five years as prime minister and she thinks you'll give it to her, no questions asked. even if she brings in a dementia tax, sacks your kids' teachers and nicks their lunches while she's at it. we can all agree that's a rubbish offer. look, i know we don't all agree on brexit, but she's off to negotiate a deal
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for you, for me, for all of us. imagine if it's a bad deal, i mean dementia tax bad. i know that to persuade you to vote liberal democrat i have to give you some really good reasons. here's three. one. i'll rescue the nhs and social care by putting a penny on income tax. two. i'll give you the final say on the brexit deal, not theresa may. three. whatever power you give me, i'll use it to stop her taking you for granted. thank you all for those opening statements. applause let's go straight to our first question and it comes from nicola. let's go straight to our first question and it comes from nicolai work, i paid my taxes, i have not had a pay rise in years, i lived alone and see all my bills going up. working people are the backbone of
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this country. how you going to help people like me? thank you, nicola. amber rudd, your party has decided over recent living standards. thank you for the question. my party has presided over making sure that people on lower wages are able to keep more of the wages they earn, must take it within context, since 2009 we had one of the largest peacetime recessions and we have managed to rebuild the economy since then but my party is focused on making sure we help people like nicola which is why we will continue to ta ke nicola which is why we will continue to take people out of taxes, making sure the amount you earn above all you have to pay tax rises to £12,500. and we are going to live within our means. some of the offers you will hear tonight are fanciful. in order to have a strong economy to support nicola and others we have to have that strong economy and the way
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to make sure we have it is to have a strong negotiating position as we go into leaving the european union. you will hear me say that a lot tonight because the worst outcome would be if we are not able to negotiate a strong deal. the question is on living standards, jeremy corbyn. living standards have fallen in the past seven years under the coalition government with the liberal democrats and tories and now the tory government itself. 6 million people are earning less than a living wage, a million are on zero hours contracts, public sector workers have had a pay cut of at least 14% over the past seven years. we will lift the pay gap on the public sector can introduce a living wage of £10 per hour by 2020 and we will not punish workers who want to ta ke will not punish workers who want to take their rights to a tribunal where they have to pay charges and fees. we will abolish that. our determination is that those who produce the wealth of this country should benefit from it. what we have
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seenis should benefit from it. what we have seen isa should benefit from it. what we have seen is a massive gap growing between those who work and those at the top and it is time to cut the 95p~ the top and it is time to cut the gap. that has to change and we will ensure it does. angus robertson, how would you help working people? the first thing i would say is that governments have choices about the kind of economic policy they pursue andy drury is now alone in government and previously with the liberal democrats —— and the tories i'iow liberal democrats —— and the tories now alone in the as there is the measures which it those were the lowest income is the most and the time has come for that to end. politicians can make different choices and every snp mp elected to westminster will stand up for those different choices and an end to austerity. it is about choices, the tories have chosen to support those who are wealthiest in society and we don't agree. we think those who have the most should pay a bit more and thatis the most should pay a bit more and that is why we are in favour of the highest earners seeing their taxes
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rising from 45 to 50p. we are also supportive of looking at changes to the pay restraint we have seen in these times of austerity. that will happen in scotland under an snp government and we will present the uk government to do the same. lastly i want to make this point, some of those people on the lowest incomes have been massively hit by welfare cuts. i think the time has come to end punishing disabled people, end bedroom tax... applause and leaving people with the lowest incomes with too little to pay for the essentials. before we move on, what amber rudd to respond. on the direct point of payments to help people who are disabled, we are a party who will always support those in most need and the welfare bill for helping people with his abilities have gone up 7 billion in the past seven years and is now at
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50 billion. we will always provide a safety net where needed. you try to ta ke safety net where needed. you try to take personal people payment away from people with disabilities and entered yourself around on that. you are not credible on the issue. there is no extra payment you don't want to add to the no tax you don't want to add to the no tax you don't want to rise but the fact is we have to concentrate our resources on the people who need it most and we had to stop thinking, as you do, that there is a money tree. you have to be accountable. i would like to bring in some of the other parties, tim farron, you have argued for this election being about providing a credible opposition, which of these parties has the right economic formula for living standards? down to the question, economical is about people, not figures, it is about the experience of people and now they can't afford to feed their children and look after them. economics is about people, it is not about figures. like many people come
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i have known in my life what it is like not to be able to pay for bills and it matters to me that we build a country which looks after our children. a strong welfare state is essential. i have been helping two people in my constituency with their payments in the last month. both of them were chief executive is of different companies in the not too distant past. everybody needs to remember that everyone of us is only one 01’ remember that everyone of us is only one or two steps from being in need at any given time. and just to a nswer at any given time. and just to answer the question specifically, what will we do? we will end the benefit freeze. since 2008, the crash public sector workers have
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probably had to bear the brunt of those cuts, whether it be nurses, doctors, social care workers. but you also need to be able to support people, so they can have the ability to choose, and that is why we will invest that money, pretty much 6 billion, into childcare for the under two—year—olds, to make sure pa rents under two—year—olds, to make sure parents have got the ability to go out to work. i am going to stop you come tim farron, caroline lucas?|j wa nt come tim farron, caroline lucas?” want to come back to nicola's point, because i think the situation you
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describe is something which people feel up describe is something which people feelup and describe is something which people feel up and down this country. for people to say that discover and cares for the most vulnerable people i think is downright insulting.” have had angry letters from a man who cannot get into the surgery because he has not got his mobility scooter and he has not headed for six weeks because the dla payment has been delayed. he isjust stuck. i think there is just simply not a recognition from this government about the pain that it is inflicting on some of the most vulnerable people in our society. and it is a matter of political choices, because we are the fifth biggest economy in the world. and yet we are a country that has 4 million children living in poverty, we are a country where a million food parcels were given out last year. that is just simply quite wrong. the green party is quite upfront about saying that we will reverse the changes in corporation tax, which have allowed theresa may to come up with this vision of the country as some kind of bargain basement tax haven. what about the just about managings?” basement tax haven. what about the just about managings? i would add to that a long list of criticisms, that there are now 800,000 fewer workless households. we have focused on making sure that people can get into work. but people are going to food banks. we need to have a system... you cannot ignore the fact that over the past seven years, another 3 million people have got intojobs.
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you attacked the reductions in corporation tax, you talk about corporations, i talk aboutjobs. what we need to have is the investment to make sure that people can get those jobs, so that they can have the dignity of a job, so they can feed their family and work. two people have not spoken yet. leanne wood, and then paul nuttall.” people have not spoken yet. leanne wood, and then paul nuttall. i would like to know what kind ofjobs these extra people are in. we know that the number of people on zero—hours contracts has gone through the roof. my contracts has gone through the roof. my party has tried in wales on seven different occasions to abolish zero—hours contracts, only to be voted down by the labour government in wales. it is a scandal that those people, especially in the public sector, who are on the highest wages, get pay increases, politicians have had pete increases, yet those at the bottom have been squeezed. and it's immigrants, then, who are scapegoated and blamed for those wages being squeezed, when it
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is tory austerity that is the real cause of that problem. paul nuttall? well, wages have stagnated over the past ten years, there's a number of reasons for that. firstly there was the economic crash, secondly we had an oversupply of labour. and that is certainly the case in working class communities, the bank of england have admitted that this is the case. what we need is to put more money in people's pockets, and you don't do that through the politics of jealousy or spite. what we need to do is to reduce taxation. we proposed that we would scrap the 18 oi'i proposed that we would scrap the 18 on fuel bills and do away with green levels levies which will put £170 backin levels levies which will put £170 back in your pockets per annum. we would also raise the personal allowa nce would also raise the personal allowance to £13,500, because we believe that people know how to spend their money better than any government. as for corporation tax, we want to see corporation tax reduced, not raised, because if we raise it, companies will leave this
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country. if they leave this country, what happens then? there's less jobs, less taxation, and people are out of work. they're starting to leave because of brexit. politics of jealousy does not work. jeremy corbyn, i would like you to respond to the point about corporation tax? paul, that is complete nonsense, if i may say so. 0ur corporation tax has been consistently lowered by this government with the support of the liberal democrats since 2010. what we're proposing is to put it up during the lifetime the parliament to 26%. let me finish, that is less thanit to 26%. let me finish, that is less than it was in 2010. and if you put that corporation tax up, you are then ina that corporation tax up, you are then in a position to deal with the crisis in social care, the crisis in oui’ crisis in social care, the crisis in our nhs, properly fund our schools and not ask headteachers to collect the parents to pay the teachers. and i would say this, amber rudd seems
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so i would say this, amber rudd seems so confident that this is a country at ease with itself — have you been toa at ease with itself — have you been to a food bank, have you seen people sleeping around our stations... ? have you seen the level of poverty that exists because of your government's conscious decisions on food banks? of course i have seen food banks? of course i have seen food banks. the way not to have people using food banks is to make sure... i am sorry, people using food banks is to make sure... iam sorry, if people using food banks is to make sure... i am sorry, if you want to ta ke sure... i am sorry, if you want to take us back to the 1970s, then it will be bad for the economy. paul... i would like you to answer a specific point, you have made many spending commitments in your ma nifesto, spending commitments in your manifesto, they are going to cost a lot of money, you would also add to borrowing — how does that create the economy which enables more to be spent on working people who need it? what we have had is a government for the past seven years which has borrowed more, run up a greater
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deficit and cut public services at the same time, and at the lowest growth rate of any industrial country. the system they have is not working. what we're proposing is to raise corporation tax, yes, in order to make the funding commitments that i have already outlined. but it is also to establish a serious national investment bank to investing in info structure all around this country, so we structure all around this country, so we do get a sustainable, growing economy. we cannot go on giving money away to the very rich. this cove na nt is money away to the very rich. this covenant is proposing another 60 billion in tax giveaways in the next five years. instead, i say, tell it about and invest in the future of all of our people. paul nuttall, and then tim farron... businesses all of our people. paul nuttall, and then tim farron. .. businesses will leave this country, and if they do that... they're leaving already, because of brexit, paul. if they leave, there is less tax, lessjobs and more people will be unemployed — thatis and more people will be unemployed — that is what you will get if you
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vote labour. we need to be compassionate to the individual, but we also have to get the big choices right. the other front in the room. the fact is, we need to remain in the single market, or else we will not be able to afford the national health service, social care or any of the support we are talking about. and ifjeremy cared about having enough money to spend on those who needed it the most, to raise living standards, he would not have trooped through the lobbies with the conservatives and ukip to trigger article 50 and to make britain poorer. i'm sure there will be an opportunity to debate that but i have to take on some ofjeremy corbyn's fantasy economics. he has this money tree wish list in his ma nifesto. this money tree wish list in his manifesto. it is very easy to think about how you spend money, it is much harder to think about how you raise money. his proposals don't add up. he thinks it is some sort of game of monopoly, perhaps, where you ask the bank for the money to buy the electrics and the railways and the electrics and the railways and the gasworks. well, it's not like that, jeremy. this is people's hard
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earned money. we will protect that, we won't roll the dice. thank you for all your responses to this question. it is time for us to move on to our second question of the evening. once we have left the eu, how will your party ensure we have the workers and the skills we need to make the uk a success? how will we have the workers and skills we need to make the uk is access after brexit, paul nuttall? very easily, because we will be controlling our own borders. when people voted out la st own borders. when people voted out last year, they did not just vote to control borders, they voted to reduce immigration as well. in the la st reduce immigration as well. in the last week, it was announced that a city the size of hull came to this country... that was not on the ballot paper, though. hold on, a city the size of hull came to this country, net. that will be birmingham over five years. it is
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unsustainable. we need to reduce immigration, and we do it by having an australian, points—based system. so, if you've got the skills that this country needs, yes, please come here and work. but beyond that, we have to get the population under control, because on the route be on, we will have a population of 80 million by the middle of this century. you just think what will happen, there will have to be a huge school building programme, new hospitals, new motorways, a new rail network, new houses. we are already having to build a house every seven minutes to keep up. reduce immigration, have a points—based system, it will be good for the economy and good for... last week's, a middle—aged asian man on his way home from work was abused and called racist names and called a terrorist. he had just finish 50 hours saving lives after the manchester bombing.
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he was a doctor. that is what happens when you demonise immigrants. that is what happens when the language... does immigration cause pressures which need to be met, do we need to invest more in infrastructure, to make sure we invest the taxes that immigrants pay to make sure that we provide for everybody? 0f pay to make sure that we provide for everybody? of course, yes. i'm afraid what the prime minister has done for the past seven years is to set completely barmy, bogus targets which she fails to meet every single year. do we need that? no, we don't. we need a policy which is good for our businesses, ourfarmers, our health service, a wise immigration policy, not a conservative immigration policy written to appease ukip. immigration is an important part of strengthening our country and supplying additional support that we need to our schools.
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but we have to make sure we have an immigration policy that we can control. we have said, the conservative party and the government, that we will continue to reduce those numbers. as we leave the european union, we will have more chance to do that and to be able to decide who comes to this country. but be in no doubt, we will always have an immigration policy which although it continues to reduce, will attract the brightest and the best and will make sure that people can come here to support our economy and develop businesses here. jeremy corbyn, you were talking about immigration today, and you said you would make no false promises about cutting it — does that mean you will make no promises at all on cutting immigration? what will happen on leaving the european union is that we cease to be members of the single market, and therefore, free movement ends. what we are saying is that every eu national who is resident in this country must be given permanent rights of residence here and not blocked. secondly, that we will ask, as we've already done
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in opposition, that all european governance do the same for british nationals living there. and that we recognise the massive contribution made by people who have come to this country from all over the world, as well as from europe, to our health service, education, industries and universities. my point was, would you make any promise on cutting immigration? what i would say is, we will have a fair and managed migration system which is based on the needs of this country and the rights of family reunion. what is fair? fair is where you bring people in when they have gotjobs to come to or it is necessary for them to be working here, or we need them to assist in the economy. that is fairer. would immigration go up, jeremy? it is also important that we maintain the links of universities with counterparts across europe. maintain the links of universities with counterparts across europem it going to go up? this government under theresa may sent lorries
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around britain telling people to go home you have campaigned for do you feel that wales does not have the workers at uni at the moment? we wa nt the workers at uni at the moment? we want to maintain our economy. so you need more workers? we're quite happy with the ones we have got. system to attract more workers to wales? because theresa may is going to end freedom of movement and that brings risks to the welsh economy. so you may need more workers to come in the future? we want to keep the ones we've got but can ijust make the point? how does that square with most people in wales voting for
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brexit? ukip has claimed that people voted to leave the eu and in so doing they also voted to curb immigration but i don't think we can read that into the result. some people may well have voted to curb immigration but there was only one question on the ballot paper and immigration wasn't on it. i'm afraid that ukip keep using this issue. they want to whip up peoples hatred, division and fear and that is why they talk immigration. applause stop lying about immigration. this isn't about immigrants, it is about government policy and the government have got the wrong time and again. amber, her party have served in three manifestos now they will get immigration down to the tens of thousands. it is jackanory, immigration down to the tens of thousands. it isjackanory, it is not going to happen. jeremy will give you a figure because immigration will go up under labour. only one party here tonight... it is
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what the majority of what british people want. poll after poll shows it. you are looking at £1 billion additional cost to our national health service because the government's bundling of the deal with europe means you will have thousands... angus robertson. i think this debate shames and demeans us think this debate shames and demeans us all. i don't think there is anyone in this room or anybody watching this debate from cornwall to caithness who does not understand the positive contribution that people have made to this land who have come from the rest of europe and the world. applause demonising those people is totally unacceptable. scotland's experience, scotland's problem has never been immigration. it may well be the case that a different realities in different parts of the uk, i accept
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that but in scotland we value the contribution of people who have come to ourland, we contribution of people who have come to our land, we value refugees who sought refuge in our country and there is much more we should do to make sure people are able to stay in scotla nd make sure people are able to stay in scotland but we should also be able to protect people who've come there. the first thing i would do is make sure that every eu citizen who is here is guaranteed the right to stage. it is totally unacceptable that this tory government has not been prepared to give them the guaranteed, the promise they can stay. that is totally unacceptable. applause if it is perfectly possible to have different immigration policies in countries such as canada and australia who have different policies between different provinces in the country, it is possible to have different immigration rules for different parts of the uk and that is what the snp supports. and the question about the upper limit? the
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problem is we are losing people, i don't know how money people saw the report last week, but the issue is people is leaving. caroline lucas. on the subject of the right of eu nationals who have made their lives here in good faith to stay here, it is unbelievably cruel to be using those lives as bargaining chips in these negotiations. the government could be saying that they should stay. i want to be able to make the case proudly for free movement. i think free movement have been the most wonderful gift, the ability to travel and work and live and love in 27 other member state and for them to come here and i have to say i'm sorry the labour party now does not support that. i think our country is enriched by people coming from other countries, the put in i love isa other countries, the put in i love is a confident, outward facing
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country recognising that migration makes a massive positive contribution. right now we have people like paul and his hate filled rhetoric who make people feel as if the reason they can't get a leg of the reason they can't get a leg of the housing ladder of ocon the agp is because of migration and it is not. —— or they is because of migration and it is not. —— orthey can't is because of migration and it is not. —— or they can't see their gp. it is because the government has not invested enough in public services. if you are trying to see someone in the nhs, you're more likely to find a migrant treating you as a doctor than ahead of you in the queue. jeremy corbyn, could you respond to the point on giving up on free movement. the problems we have of exploitation of workers in this country and groups of workers who have been brought in wholesale from lower paid economies in central europe is a serious one. those people are themselves grossly exploited, brought here to undermine existing pay and working conditions... can i finish? that will make this situation worse in any community where that takes place. i was demanding that barbara dee kelly —— proper medallist and
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while we were still in the eu before the referendum and that strategy has to stop. there has to be managed migration that is not designed to undermine working conditions... a lot of people making a great deal of money from property of those people. i'm astonished that the labour party is now a pink ukip in using the same arguments about immigration. the single european market matters to all others —— that labour is aping ukip. why don't you stand up to the tories and say, we want to remain within the single market because it matters to jobs of people from britain and the rest of europe who live in the uk? what we have is rhetoric around here about helping those eu nationals who live here and raise their children here and work in universities like this and served in our hospitals but when it came to the vote in the house of commons the labour party did not show up. in the
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lord be instructed their people to vote against the lib dem amendment which would have guaranteed the right to remain for eu citizens.” would like amber rudd to respond to the point that you are using those people as bargaining chips? absolutely untrue, what we are concerned about are the 4 million, 3 million here and 1 million uk citizens in the rest of the european union. we need to make sure we get a deal to protect all their rights. as this squabbling was going on i was thinking about the 9th ofjune and the different leaders who have had discussions about so—called progressive alliance and i was thinking how chaotic it would be if they got together and formed a coalition and tried to run the government. shout over each other. what is chaotic is you and ukip aren't in arm. you stood on a platform about a year ago saying that you thought that britain would
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be safer, stronger and better off in the eu. were you wrong then or are you wrong now? we can't trust you on this. you are hitching your wagon to ukip. what i'm consistent about it accepting the result of a referendum. i know that for angus there is no referendum result he will accept, everybody seems to be wrong to him but the fact is we had this debate last year, there has been the result and i want to make sure that we get the right result and under theresa may we will negotiate... we are out of time on this particular question, thank you very much. it is time for our next question from rhiannon. all the parties have promised more money for public services, where is it coming from and how can we trust that your plans will add up? thank you, promises of money, where does it come from and how can we trust your plans? caroline lucas. the first
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thing to say is that we would stop spending money on things we simply don't think are a good use of it and trident nuclear weapons would come close to the top of that list. applause we will scrap nuclear weapons which would give is around 130 billion minimum. we would not be building hs2, we would not go ahead and give massive subsidies to hinckley nuclear—power station. you stop wasting money firstly and then you have the principle that says that those people who have more money, the broadest shoulders, should be ebbing more into the system. what we need to be doing is levying things like a wealth tax, looking at issues around corporation tax. it is wrong we are going for this bargain basement tax haven, we should be going for a company where corporations pay their tax but the bottom line is that this country is not a poor country. the money is in the wrong hands, there is vast inequality in the country. if we
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we re inequality in the country. if we were to sort out that problem, we would have a much better chance of ensuring that public services are properly paid for. take the nhs, we put far less into the nhs than most other countries of similar gdp. we don't put that money in the public services and therefore we don't have the world—class public services we demand. the greens are clear that for us public services should be in public hands, not having the private sector in them. thank you, i will to amber rudd. the question is about trusting plans and in your manifesto there was a notable absence of costings. i would say in answer to the question tojudge us on our record. laughter we have cut the deficit, we have reduced taxes for the lowest paid and we have made sure we have continued to invest in the nhs. another £8 billion a year by the end of this parliament. the only way we
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can have that money to invest in our public services, and we know the importance of them, our schools and hospitals, is to make sure we have a strong economy which does sometimes means making difficult choices, the sort of choices that no other party here is prepared to face up to. we have to make sure we control our spending and have that strong economy but the sure way to bust our economy but the sure way to bust our economy and lead to danger is to have false negotiations with the eu, the sort of leader like jeremy corbyn support of perhaps by the people here who would create confusion when trying to deal with the 27 governments. jeremy corbyn. i'm very clear we will negotiate tariff free trade access to european market so our monitoring industry jobs are defended and supported and we have a growing economy as a result. we have made a number of very clear spending commitment in our manifesto. they are set out in the spending plans and also in the
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ma nifest the spending plans and also in the manifest itself. the conservative government has made a lot of choices, we know what they are, our schools are underfunded, hospitals overcrowded, students are saddled with debt, a growing housing crisis and at every turn their answer is to further reduce corporation tax and further reduce corporation tax and further reduce corporation tax and further reduce tax for the very wealthiest in society. are you sure your plans add up? it was only yesterday you could not remember the cost of one of your policies.” yesterday you could not remember the cost of one of your policies. i am absolutely sure they add up, i'm clear about this. for example, absolutely sure they add up, i'm clearabout this. for example, if absolutely sure they add up, i'm clear about this. for example, if we wa nt to clear about this. for example, if we want to remove university tuition fees, and we do, so our students are not saddled with that, and restore maintenance grant so all children, whatever background, as a child of going to university, cost £11 billion. i think that is money well spent and the kind of investment this country needs. applause why should a child's future be
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determined by the postcode in which they are born? that is why we are determined to bring in three preschool 30 hours a week from two to four—year—olds and make sure that every primary school child gets a free lunch every day so they can learn while they are properly fed. jeremy, you have a labour government in wales and they are not doing those things. it is charging students to go to university. why are you saying this here when you have an example of the labour government... this is a uk government policy. it is going to be uk policy and it will mean that the money is made available there by increasing tax, not for the first 95% of the population, but the other 596, 95% of the population, but the other 5%, to ensure the funds are there. because i am fed up with the idea that so many children growing up in the poorer households and communities don't get the same
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chances as others to get to university and get on in life. they lose and we all lose because we lose those brilliant people to our communities. angus robertson, your ma nifesto communities. angus robertson, your manifesto also included major spending promises an extra £180 billion for public services uk wide. it is actually 128 alien to the different sources are rescheduling the uk finances and 10 billion in funds to be raised in taxation largely through the 45 to 50p tax change —— 128 billion. can i bring up change —— 128 billion. can i bring upa change —— 128 billion. can i bring up a serious issue which i think has been the biggest so far in the campaign? that relates to social ca re campaign? that relates to social care and to pensions. i think when older people are facing the most likely prospect which is a
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re—elected tory government, sadly, and they are promising a dementia tax, an end to the winter fuel payment, and cuts to the pension, i think those people deserve to know by how much. and they have not been told will stop the prime minister did not have the guts to come along this evening to tell us so i would like to challenge... applause i would like to challenge amber rudd to tell us the answer to that question now because they must have costed it, they must know how much money it will bring in so please tell the pensioners of this country how much they will have to page to fund tory austerity, how much? don't give up on me quite yet, it is only halfway through the debate. to raise a may not be here, but a i hope to make a good fist of it. we have made a clear decision to make sure we will protect the poorest in our society, which means the pensioners... the pensioners will be
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protected, the winter fuel payments won't be paid to millionaires. what has happened to the triple lock. so, where will the level be put, then? under a labour government, the pensioners saw a rise in their pensions of 85p in one year. under this government, we seem pensioners' pay increase by more than £1000. will you be protecting the triple lock? axemen come have you not read my manifesto, i am happy to give you copy afterwards. i want an answer now, are you going to protect the triple lock? it's not about the triple lock? it's not about the triple lock. amber rudd... there are two specific points here, one is about the level of the cap on social care, and the other is, you have not said at what level you will be means testing the winter fuel payments. we have said we will consult on that, but a have said we will consult on that, butai have said we will consult on that, but a i can tell you very clearly that millionaires will not be given it. jeremy corbyn has asked me about
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looking after pensioners, and i would like to answer that. we will a lwa ys would like to answer that. we will always look after pensioners to make sure they have dignity and security in retirement. we have committed to making sure that their pension will a lwa ys making sure that their pension will always be updated according to inflation. that is so different to the commitment they got under labour. tim farron? amber rudd is not answering the question. we have a general election in eight days' time, theresa may assuming a great landslide, which is wetting —— where she think she will not bother coming tonight. we will take your house off you, and we will let you know how much you can keep after you give us a great majority. if you give theresa may permission to do what she likes, that is what will happen on the 8th ofjune. applause there was a question about how you make things add up, the liberal
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democrats have a fully costed manifesto. i will tell you what, there is a long—term economic plan underlining the whole of our manifesto, and that is, don't leave the european single market and throwaway £15 billion every single year. you have been clear about how you would pay for the extra £6 billion — do you think that would be transformative? absolutely. there are those who say it would not make that much difference? to me can the nhs is personal, not political. why mum had ovarian cancer, from the point of her diagnosis to treatment, to hercare, to point of her diagnosis to treatment, to her care, to her passing away, in a ward just two floors away from the one where she had given birth to me, everybody out there, our experience of the national health service is personal. let me finish. the point is this took if you look at and you use national health services, you know, as we saw in manchesterjust la st know, as we saw in manchesterjust last week, how utterly dedicated and brilliant they are, and yet... and
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yet, caroline, let me finish, what we have got here is, you see the professionalism and the decency of those people, but have we got the best funded health service in the world ? best funded health service in the world? no, we haven't. paul nuttall, of ukip. it is important we put a penny on income tax to fund the national health service. the question was, how would you raise the money? we've been quite detailed about how we would do it. firstly, we would scrap hs2, which is only there for the benefit of one place and one place alone, and that is london. we would also look at the barnet formula, which gives scots £1700 per head more than us, the english. it needs to be scrapped. and finally... a famous £350 million a week! we would slash the foreign aid budget, which is costing the
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british people £30 billion. and we will transfer that money to the national health service. because we are prepared... we cannot hear him speak. because we are prepared to look at different priorities, we can give the nhs an extra £9 billion a year, £2 billion extra for social care. it is not that long ago that you call the nhs a monolithic hangover — did you change your mind? in the early years of procurement, i think i was right, i think the nhs would do better. however, going into this election, and the last one, we have gone into it with a clear commitment to keep the nhs in public hands and to put extra money in. we will be taking money from the foreign aid budget, as i said. thank you all for your responses to that question. don't forget, if you want to get involved in the debate at home you can join the conversation
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on social media using the hashtag #bbcdebate. we can now go to the next question. good evening. what are your priorities for making britain a safer cou ntry priorities for making britain a safer country and the world a safer place? what are your priorities for making britain a safer country, and the world a safer place come and is robertson? i will speak for all of my colleagues here, at the forefront of our minds are all of the families who suffered the devastation to their loved ones and relatives in their loved ones and relatives in the attack on manchester. what happened there was a horror, and sadly, it's happening far too often, both here and around the world. sol think the first thing we need to do is that we need to take safety and security seriously. we need to invest in the police, not cut them, as has been the case in england. in
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scotland, we've managed to maintain the police numbers. that is our first thing, let's the police and give them the resources they need, and the intelligence services. there has been some discussion about the link between uk foreign policy and becoming perhaps a terrorist threat. i think that is a dangerous link to draw, however, iwould say i think that is a dangerous link to draw, however, i would say this. i think that is a dangerous link to draw, however, iwould say this. i think we are right to question our intervention in different parts of the world. in afghanistan, iraq and libya. the lesson i draw from that is not that it might be wrong sometimes to intervene. we agreed that helping people in libya was a good thing. what was wrong was spending 13 times more bombing that country than helping to rebuild it, and leaving areas of the world... applause leaving areas of the world with unhave and spaces is where terrorism and extremism thrives. we need to
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give the police and security services the tools they require, so, not cutting the police would be a first step. and i think we need to be very cautious about intervene internationally, and if we're going to do it, we have to think long and ha rd to do it, we have to think long and hard about making sure that those places remain stable and safe for lunar years to come. jeremy corbyn w have talked about our foreign interventions and the link? what happened in manchester was unbelievably abominable in every way. innocent lives were taken from mainly young people out enjoying themselves. i want to live in a country which protects the right of people to go out and enjoy themselves in any town or city. the consequences of that are appalling for those families, and i hope those that perpetrated this act are all discovered and brought to book. but there is also a question we have to ask about the number of police officers. under amber rudd and theresa may before that, 20,000 police officers have lost their
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jobs, there are fewer police officers around than there were seven officers around than there were seve n yea rs officers around than there were seven years ago. and those cuts are going to continue. i think it is important that we restore those number. what i also think, if i may say so, is the point which angus was alluding to, about terror threats and other threats to our security. there are terror threats, obviously, and there are also cyber attack threats, as the national health service discovered. it is also important that we recognise that leaving large spaces of, for example, libya without proper government, leaves an opportunity for those who wish to do harm to other people, giving them that space to do that. if you intervene somewhere, the consequences go on for a very long time. do you think without the police cuts, the attack would not have happened?” without the police cuts, the attack would not have happened? i am absolutely not saying that. the attack in manchester happened because somebody decided that they
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wa nted because somebody decided that they wanted to go and kill a large number of people for some perverted belief in their minds. they have to be dealt with, and those people have to be protected. what i am also saying is, though, it would be extremely unwise for any government, anywhere in the world, to ignore what is happening in libya, where large areas are left not properly governed and very dangerous forces are arising there. we need to recognise the human rights of people all around the world and be prepared to support them, not just around the world and be prepared to support them, notjust go in and bomb and do nothing about it afterwards, which is what happened in libya. just a quick point of fact before i turn to amber rudd took a diane abbott has spoken about 10,000 new release numbers, you're saying 20,000? no, i'm saying 20,000 have been cut under the conservatives. what is also important is the
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response of people in this country to what happened image is to. i was in manchester straight after the events in manchester straight after the eve nts too k in manchester straight after the events took place, and tim was there as well, and amber rudd. the most amazing sense of community unity. they were not going to allow the individual who killed those people to divide our community, it was a united response. applause it isa it is a really important question. the firstjob of it is a really important question. the first job of any government is to keep its citizens safe and secure. but i go to level with you — since 2014, we have been at the threat level of severe, which means an attack is highly likely. as home secretary for the past year, i seem the evidence, i've seen the warrants crossing my desk, i spend about two hours a day looking at them, seeing the real damage that some of these terrorists want to do to us. the way we try to stop them is by supporting our security services and
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counter—terrorism police. the best way to try and intervene in those plots is to make sure that they are well—funded, and we have increased their budget significantly since 2015 and we hope to do even more.- how do the cuts in police numbers make us safer? the fact is, they we re make us safer? the fact is, they were reductions in the police budget because we had to make changes to be able to live within our means after 2010. but the police responded incredibly welcome a crime has falle n incredibly welcome a crime has fallen by a third 2010 and 2015, and we protected the police budget going forward. so, government can make sure we live within our means and protect communities. but with terrorism, we have to make sure we also have the right legislation. i am shocked that jeremy corbyn, just in 2011, boasted that he had opposed every piece of anti—terror legislation in his 13 years in office. i really think you must be held accountable for that, because i find it chilling. may ijust remind
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you that in 2005, theresa may voted against the anti—terrorist legislation at that time. and she voted against it, as did david davis and a number of people who are now in your cabinet, because they felt that that legislation was giving too much executive power. my opposition to anti—terror legislation isn't opposition to protecting us from terrorism, it is simply saying that there must bejudicial terrorism, it is simply saying that there must be judicial oversight over what is done in our name. applause there is. tim farron, in your ma nifesto, there is. tim farron, in your manifesto, you said you were going to roll back state surveillance powers by ending the indiscriminate collection of communications data, do you still stand by that, after
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manchester? if you look at the security services, what do they need, more powers, or is it resources to make use of the powers they already have? the temporary exclusion orders which exist now, only one has been used in the last two years. but undoubtedly, the shadow we are standing in now is that of manchester. manchester is my capital city, it matters to me. as jeremy said, i was there, all four of my kids were in manchester that night. reminds us how safe are police and security services keep us, the countless times that such outrages have been prevented. how do you tackle it? well, we will give an additional £300 million to police to make sure that we deal with community policing, and we will also ensure that we restart the engagement with communities, so you get on the inside, to prevent it. there is undoubtedly an international angle to this, too. here is the thing, the terrorists
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that hate britain, you know what, they hate belgium, they hate france, they hate belgium, they hate france, they hate belgium, they hate france, they hate germany, they hate our way of life and everything that we stand for. just as we in manchester stood together against terrorism, and across britain, we stand together against terrorism, so we must stand together with our neighbours, not just on this continent but around the world, with shared values, to fight it. and that will mean diplomacy, that will mean all sorts of things. and sometimes it will ta ke of things. and sometimes it will take real serious action. sometimes it might even mean military action. we will have to do the tough thing to defeat the terrorists. paul nuttall? it is quite clear that the war in iraq was fundamentally wrong because what was going to come next was going to be worse for that our foreign policy was not an excuse for what went on in manchester and what politicians need to do is at least have the courage to name what it is, it is islamist extremism. you have
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had a diatribe so let's... it is islamist extremism, nobody has the courage to say what it is. how we solve it, we put 20,000 police office rs solve it, we put 20,000 police officers back on the beat, 4000 more on the border force, we tighten our borders. 7000 new prison officers because radicalisation is right in our prisons and i can't believe we have allowed 350 jihadis to return to our country from libya and syria. if you go ant and fight or support islamic state you should have your passport revoked and never be allowed back into this country. applause what we also have to do is look at radicalising in our own mosques and i will say, i think you need to look at saudi and qatari funding of mosques in this country. and finally we need to get the muslim community
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itself to the present programme, only one out of eight referrals to prevent, from the muslim community. we have to rebuild trust and confidence. you know the murderer last monday was reported on five separate occasions by the muslim community. caroline lucas. thank you to the question, and it is important and let me be clear that people who commit the kind of atrocities like in manchester are barbaric and what they stand for is evil. the best form of defence against attacks like thatis form of defence against attacks like that is intelligence led policing and community engagement and the kind of response we have just heard from paul which seems to suggest that the violence in manchester was somehow representative of islam is com pletely somehow representative of islam is completely outrageous, it is no more representative of islam than the murder ofjo cox was representative of the wider british public. i'm deeply concerned about the police
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cuts we have talked about and it is interesting that the police federation warned those cuts could be very dangerous but i also think it is right that we review our interventions overseas. it is a disservice to democracy to present there is no link and close the debate. the former head of m15 herself has said the invasion of iraq exacerbated the terror threat to the uk and was highly significant in her words in terms of home—grown extremists. i want to say something to amber because we can't solve all the problems in the world but we can stop adding to them. my question is this, why is britain, —— why is britain the second biggest arms dealer in the world? why are we selling to 22 of the 30 countries on the government's own human rights watch list? why did we make ten times more in arms sales to saudi arabia than we gave to yemen in aid?
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i will make no apology for being a government that wants to defend this country. we will make sure that our defence budget is well funded and we do that by having a strong economy. we have to make sure we can do that by having a strong industry. arms sales to saudi arabia cannot be justified on this being good for industry. applause leanne wood. there does need to be some reviewing going on, we need to look at foreign policy and the prevent strategy. it is a fact that policing has been cut by 20% including when theresa may was in the home office and it is a question of priorities. we should be investing in police and other public services, those are the people running into the dangerous situations when everybody else is running away. that point has been made, when you say we should look at what we are doing, what would you do
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differently in terms of attacking extremism? in terms of the cuts to public services, but has had an impactand if public services, but has had an impact and if you take an example, youth work. when you had a well funded youth service there were youth workers available to challenge the ideology of young people... are you saying austerity has made us less safe ? you saying austerity has made us less safe? i am saying it has cut youth workers and there are fewer people around to challenge the root cause and ideology that spurs these people on. can i finish? i used to work as a probation officer and if we are work as a probation officer and if we a re interested work as a probation officer and if we are interested in tackling the root cause of this problem, we had to understand what it is, understand the ideological drivers and they have to be challenged by people qualified to be able to do that. by cutting youth workers and other public services, you are reducing your ability to do that and that is one of the reasons we are less safe. keep it brief. i think what we have
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to remember, particularly when everything is so rawjust nine days after manchester, there is a lot of finger—pointing going after manchester, there is a lot of finger— pointing going on after manchester, there is a lot of finger—pointing going on and we all have ideas and some are different and some similar but the critical thing to rememberat and some similar but the critical thing to remember at this point is that knee jerk new policies and laws tend to do more harm than good, more resources for security services and the police we have already will do a lot more good than harm.” the police we have already will do a lot more good than harm. i said you needed to be brief, paul nuttall.m course, the vast majority of muslims in this country are peaceful and add to the economy and are great for our culture but there is a tiny minority within that community who hate who we are, the way we live, our democracy, and i've called it a cancer in the past, radical islam is a cancer and it needs to be cut out, if not there will be more attacks. you have not ruled out looking up suspected terrorists? without trial, would that make us safer? frankly i
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have said nothing should be taken off the table. as far as i'm concerned, when m15 tell as there is a possible 23,000 jihadis out there who want to do us harm... angus robertson. british lives over the human rights of anyjihadis.” rememberthe human rights of anyjihadis.” remember the question was about terrorism and extremism and you notice ukip went straight for muslims. it is my time to speak. it wasn't a muslim who shot jo cox, muslims. it is my time to speak. it wasn't a muslim who shotjo cox, one ofjeremy's wasn't a muslim who shotjo cox, one of jeremy's mp colleagues, wasn't a muslim who shotjo cox, one ofjeremy's mp colleagues, it was a british right—wing neo—nazi. who was it who gunned down kids in norway? a norwegian white racist neo—nazi. there are all kinds of threats and we need to combat them all. jeremy corbyn. the response of the people of manchester was absolutely
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magnificent, all communities of all faiths coming together and i utterly deplore the language that paul nuttall users and the subliminal attack the whole time on people of muslim faith... you invited how mass —— hamas to the house of commons.“ imight —— hamas to the house of commons.“ i might complete a sentence. we have to recognise we live in a multi—faith, multicultural society and an attack on any religion is totally u na cce pta ble. we and an attack on any religion is totally unacceptable. we should recognise we should bring people together... thank you, that is all the time we have on this particular question. our next question comes from rebecca. president trump is pulling out of the paris climate change agreement. how would the panellists deal with that? how would you deal with president trump wanting to pull out of the paris agreement? i will ask everybody to deal with this briefly so we can get
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one more question in. we will talk about brexit being a huge threat and whatever you think, nothing better asa whatever you think, nothing better as a threat to our country and the future of our children than that of climate change. you are worried about immigration? you see the mass movement of people as land is designated by climate change and the reality is this, if it is simply for muesli eating guardian readers to solve card climate change, we all soft so let's make a difference and that made a nationwide and app planet wide concerted effort to build the future we need. what can we do? we can make ourselves energy self—sufficient in renewable energy. 95% of the supply chain of energy in this country title and marine and coastal energy is british made. why not rebuild our economy whilst guaranteeing our futures? caroline lucas. i want to thank user much for
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that question because the green party have been trying to get climate change onto this election campaign agenda for the past six weeks and it has been impossible soap thank you so much. it is a vital question, the greatest threat we face and in terms of what we do to president trump, i'm trying to think of polite answer! essentially what we need to do ignore him because the economics behind renewables is already such that we know that renewables are going to be cheaper than fossil fuels that they replace. that revolution is happening but what we need to do in this country is an awful lot more than is being doing —— being done by this government. we need to leave two thirds of all known fossil fuels in the ground if we are to have any hope of avoiding catastrophic climate change and that means a massive investment in renewable energy and efficiency. amber rudd of course was the energy secretary for a while but under herbs we did not see the kind of transition we
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urgently need if we are serious about climate change so we need to see the big fossil fuels in the ground, not giving subsidies, no fracking, not what is being planned or around the country under this government. we also need to seek an end to massive air pollution. i'm going to stop you because i wanted to do paul nuttall. president trump is doing what he set out to do. he's the leader of the free world whether we like it or not and he said in his election campaign that he would withdraw from the paris agreement and he is looking at india and china who have huge coal—fired power station building programmes which are taking place at the moment. do you think he's doing the right thing? he's looking at the us economy and he promised to look after the rust belt and working class people and he knows that if they reduce energy bills by withdrawing from the paris agreement he will protect the american economy and he is putting america first and
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i think britain should put britain at first as well. so would you want to see britain doing the same? we are only to blame for 2% of global emissions. companies will move to countries with lower... jeremy corbyn. we should absolutely adhere to the paris climate change agreement and urge the american people to press the government and the senate and house and president to adhere to it as well. applause and in this country we are determined to achieve 60% of renewable energy by 9030, we are also determined to reduce emissions but it is notjust about climate change emissions, it is also about our attitude towards the environment, levels of air quality and air pollution in our cities which are not being addressed by this government, and also, when we did have a growing and thriving solar power industry in the country, what did they do? cut the tariffs we re what did they do? cut the tariffs were destroyed and damaged that
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rudd. the uk's own official adviser says your government is not on track to make the pledge of cutting emissions by 80% by 2050? why not.” make the pledge of cutting emissions by 8096 by 2050? why not. i will a nswer by 8096 by 2050? why not. i will answer the first question, i am disappointed, i led the uk delegation to get that international agreement of 180 different countries pledging to that reduction and it is disappointing that the americans are pulling out but i hope we can use our relationship with president trump and our close relationship with the us to try to influence and make sure they nevertheless take the right steps. tell him he is wrong. that's not quite how diplomacy works. the reason why i'm optimistic is because there has been such substantial investment in renewable energy and in solar. it increasingly does not need a subsidy and because of that investment it makes good economic sense as well as good
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renewable... what about air pollution? this is terrible leadership on the part of donald trump and also appalling leadership on the half of the prime minister who cannot even be bothered to come here and answer these questions for herself today. applause it is no surprise. he was clear in his campaign what it was that he would be about in terms of climate change and he is sticking to his line but he is wrong and the world needs to tell him he is wrong.“ line but he is wrong and the world needs to tell him he is wrong. it is bad business. to answer the question, i'm more than disappointed, i am appalled that president trump has walked away from a global approach to one of the biggest challenges we face at home and abroad. what he has done is what many others fear he will do in a m é from having a with —m that is why if the uk at a
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problems. that is why if the uk at a special relationship with the united states, and we remember the first trip that was made by theresa may was to seem a climate change denier, namely donald trump, what kind of influence was used by the prime minister then to make sure he did not go forward with this disastrous. this is a government that has got rid of the climate change responsible at the at the cabinet table and it is absolutely appalling so what we need to do is everything we can at home, i'm delighted that more than 50% of all energy generated in scotland is three renewables, we wanted to go ahead with carbon capture and storage until it was scrapped by the tories but there is more to be done and the promised and the government need to ta ke promised and the government need to take climate change seriously in a way they have done recently and we need to impress all our international colleagues we need to work together and get this global challenge sorted. it is time now for our last question. in what way does
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your leadership have the talent and character required to take this country character required to take this cou ntry forward character required to take this country forward into the future? in what way does your leadership have the talent and the character needed to ta ke the talent and the character needed to take this country forward, jeremy corbyn? leadership is about understanding the people you represent, is about being prepared to learn, is about not being so high and mighty, you can't take advice. it is also about bringing people with you, it is also about ensuring that your responsibility is to protect the safety and security of everybody in this country, and to lead a government that cares for everybody in the country and doesn't walk by on the other side when there are people that are homeless, people that are starving, and we have millions of our children living in poverty. it is leadership to lead a government that is prepared to say
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to our society, we cannot go on like this, we have to start putting more money into our public services and our resources, we have to have an economy that works for all, and we don't have to have a spiv economy which gives tax relief to the biggest corporations and the wealthiest people whilst ignoring the desperate cries for social help from so many people in our country. applause paul nuttall. your leadership? well, i've never changed my stance pretty much on anything. i don't flip flop. i have always been, for example, a brexiteer. rack when ijoined ukip, you don'tjoin brexiteer. rack when ijoined ukip, you don't join ukip brexiteer. rack when ijoined ukip, you don'tjoin ukip for a career, you don'tjoin ukip for a career, you joined it because you've got principles. our prince apoel simply this — we wanted to get our country out of the european union, and we we re very out of the european union, and we were very successful on the 23rd of june last year. what we've got to do
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is, we have got to ensure that we get the brexit which people voted for, whereby we control our own borders and immigration, we get full control of our waters and fisheries back, we bring our laws back to westminster, we leave the ecj and the european court of human rights. we are free to sign our own trade deals, we are out of the single market, and most importantly, we pay no divorce bill to the european union, because since we've been members, since 1973, we've paid £183 billion net in ownership fee alone. i would be strong enough going into the negotiations, i just i would be strong enough going into the negotiations, ijust hope the prime minister is. would you refuse to pay your dues if you were going through a real divorce? look, listen... applause we have given that club 183 billion
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since 1973. we have got 9 billion tied up in the european investment bank, and indeed, we only its of its real estate. don't talk down this country, we are the fifth largest economy in the world. in the real world, there is no such thing asa real world, there is no such thing as a free divorce, you have to pay your dues. this is all about... this is all about trade, and we have a huge trading deficit with the eu, they need us more than we need them. for god's sake, let's be confident about ourselves. amber rudd, the question is about leadership, and the conservatives have made a lot of noise about theresa may's personal leadership and yet this is a campaign where we saw a major u—turn on social care? part of being a good leader is having a good, strong team around you, and i am proud to be here representing the conservative party and the prime minister making that case. let's face it, jeremy only decided to come i think late this morning. i was rather hoping diane abbott might be here so i
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could debate with her as well. but the fact is, the most important challenge that this government is going to have going forward is getting a good negotiation with the eu. it is going to decide whether we have a strong economy, whether we can pay good wages to our public servants, theresa may has the support of her team. she has the support of her team. she has the support of her team. she has the support of whoever becomes her mps. jeremy corbyn has had a no confidence vote against him, which four out of five of his mps would not support him on. how can he go in to negotiate with 27 different countries with such a weak team and weak support behind him? theresa may will be able to deliver for us, as home secretary, she delivered 35 different opt—outs, she knows how to negotiate and deliver from the european union. she will be the right leader for us. jeremy corbyn, can you respond to that point? 300,000 people elected me to need this party, and i'm very proud to lead it. applause
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caroline lucas? i think the first rule of leadership is to show up. you don't a general election... applause you don't say it is the most important election in her lifetime and then not even be bothered to turn up to the debate. i am here as a co—leader and i am proud that the green party pioneers new ways of doing things. we want to see job sharing in all kinds of different areas of our lives and i am very happy to be there with my co—leader. leadership is about listening, it is about legalising that all of us have leadership qualities, and in particular i think it is about trusting the public. on that issue, ido trusting the public. on that issue, i do not understand why this government will not allow the people to have the final say on the eu referendum. why can we not have a vatican issued referendum, when we see the final deal, of what theresa
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may or whoever it is brings back from brussels? why can we not trust the british people to have that final say? if they like what they see, that's great, but if they don't, away to have another look at thatis don't, away to have another look at that is by voting green, because we will say on that ballot paper that you should have the right to remain in the eu if that is what you choose when you see the small print. because since this referendum was called, so many lies were told... tim farron, your qualities of leadership? well, good leaders do not run away from a debate. theresa may undoubtedly should be here. we discuss this evening, her absence is undoubtedly the shadow which hangs over this election. how dare you call a general election and then run away from the debate? applause the question is about your talent and character of leadership? we are all products of our upbringing. i grew up in preston in the 1980s and i saw what happens when a society, a
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community is taken for granted, in that case by a conservative government with a great majority, half of parents out of work at any given time. and i'm determined to build a country for our kids, mine included, where people are decent to one another, where we have a national health service which is properly funded, and we will be honest to the british people, saying we will put a penny on income tax. it means stopping theresa may's plans to do to your kids' schools what she is currently doing to our hospitals. it also means, if you wa nt to hospitals. it also means, if you want to leave the people, you have to like them as well and spend time amongst them. if you trust the people, then you do not impose that brexit deal on the british people without them having the final say. either the politicians will sign it off or the people will. i trust the people. i just off or the people will. i trust the people. ijust want off or the people will. i trust the people. i just want to turn to angus robertson. real leadership is about putting the country before your party. and i think we all now know
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that this was a totally unnecessary election, and the only reason theresa may called it was that she thought she was then have a massive majority a result of it. whatever happened to strength and stability? where has that gone?! weak and wobbly is where we are, not so much the iron lady as the u—turn queen. that is not the leadership that we require. in contrast, as leader of the snp in the house of commons, the third party in the house of commons, lam third party in the house of commons, i am proud that we have led the effective opposition, when suddenly come the labour party has too often dropped the ball, asking questions notjust which dropped the ball, asking questions not just which battered to people dropped the ball, asking questions notjust which battered to people in scotland, but in the rest of the uk, europe and the world as well. i am confident that the snp will be return to westminster as the third—party, because we need to protect our country from the tories. how many mps? i am working hard to win in every single—seaters scotland, mishal, that is our plan.
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people must realise it is either the snp or the tories in scotland. whichever party they naturally vote for, they must realise this. leanne wood? i believe leaders should walk the walk, and should be prepared to defend so—so politics and their policies. they should also be prepared to stick to their guns, and it's shocking that theresa may has done a u—turn on so many things. there was not going to be an election, now, there is an election. there was not going to be a tax on the self—employed, or there was, and thenit the self—employed, or there was, and then it was abolished. and then there is this latest u—turn on the dementia tax. i am not one for u—turns. five country, we will stick to our manifesto promises, and plaid cymru will lead for wales. thank you. thank you to all our speakers for their responses to that final question. that ends our audience
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questions tonight. now for our speakers' closing statements, which are just 30 seconds each. iam going i am going to ask you to please applaud right at the end of all seven of the statements. paul nuttall is first. tonight has been a little like groundhog day — you've heard the same arguments, excuses and platitudes a hundred times before. ukip will always be the outsider — the one the westminster elites and establishment media want to mock and ridicule. but we've been proved right on brexit, proved right on immigration, proved right on grammar schools, proved right on protecting our police and security services — on 8th june, it's your decision, your country, your vote. vote ukip. next is caroline lucas, co—leader of the green party. tonight, this country stands
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at a crossroads — and the choice is stark. you can stand up for what really matters — values of openness, tolerance and compassion. or you can turn inward to isolation, division and hate. one more mp from the other parties makes no real difference. but more green mps would be truly transformative. onjune 8th, i urge you — don't look back. choose what kind of future you really want. vote for change. vote green. and together, let's build a caring and a more confident britain. tonight, we have seen the real choice facing our country, between a labour government and a conservative government. this election will decide whether young people will be
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saddled with debt or freed from it, whether we invest in schools and social care, or they continue to be cut, whether older people get the dignity they deserve or see their incomes fall. on the 8th ofjune, you have the power to decide. vote labour, for the many, not the few. the deputy leader of the snp, angus robertson. in this debate, you've heard different views about the kind of country we should be. for those watching in england, wales and northern ireland, the snp will always work with others who share our belief in fairness and of an outward looking, welcoming society. now, more than ever, we need a strong opposition to hold the tories to account. the snp will be that strong voice for scotland. and our pledge is this — to work every day to make scotland the very best country it can be. the plaid cymru leader, leanne wood. tonight, you've heard that plaid cymru is the only party putting wales on the agenda during this election. but our mps will play their part for the whole of the uk. we will stand up forjustice
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and fair play on pensions, on social care, and for our cash—starved public services. so, i urge people back home to give us the mandate we need to defend wales. liking us isn't enough. we need your support and your vote. don't let our country be invisible in parliament. vote plaid, vote for wales. tim farron, leader of the liberal democrats. look, you've heard my arguments. i will give you the final say over the brexit deal. i will put a penny on income tax for the nhs. and i will stand up to the conservatives over the dementia tax and everything else. amber rudd is up next. she's not the prime minister. the prime minister is not here tonight. she can't be bothered. so, why should you? in fact, bake off is on bbc two next. why not make yourself a brew? you are not worth theresa may's time. don't give her yours. and for the final closing statement this evening,
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for the conservatives, amber rudd. thank you, tim, for that pass! you've heard the squabbling and discord of disagreement here tonight. you've seen the coalition of chaos in action. but in the quiet of the polling booth, you have a clear choice. a vote for anyone other than theresa may is a vote for jeremy corbyn, and that coalition. our government needs to be at its strongest to take us through brexit — it is only theresa may that can deliver that leadership. there is going to be live reaction tonight on the bbc news channel to the debate. and there will be a special question time from york later in the week. i would like to thank our audience, especially those whose questions were used tonight, and to all of you watching at home, and to all of you watching at home, andindeed and to all of you watching at home, and indeed to the seven politicians who took part tonight. from all of
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us here, goodbye.


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