tv Dateline London BBC News October 14, 2017 4:30pm-5:01pm BST
up up and away in albuqerque, new mexico, where thousands of people gathered to watch this mass ascension of hot air balloons on the last weekend of the international balloon fiesta in new mexico. the festival, which is held in against the backdrop of the region's desert landscape, includes inflatable characters hovering over the city, as well as hundreds of the traditional hot air balloons. hello there. some warm weather and some windy weather to come over the next couple of days. it's certainly been warming up in southern areas today, especially where we had some sunshine. sunny skies by day translate into clear skies overnight, with a few patches of cloud and maybe the odd mist patch. for northern ireland and scotland, more cloud, some outbreaks of rain, a strong wind, maybe galeforce gusts for some exposed spots. temperatures 12—14 degrees, a very mild night indeed. tomorrow, quite a breezy day, particularly in the north—west. outbreaks of rain spreading slowly southwards and eastwards across northern ireland and scotland.
wales, quite a cloudy start for many but things brightening up, especially in central and eastern areas, where we get the best of the sunshine. temperatures could possibly get as high as 22—23 degrees. but for the start of the new week, we are looking at this. hurricane ophelia, currently in the atlantic, it won't be a hurricane as it reaches our shores but could still bring some very windy weather indeed, particularly in the west. hello, and welcome to dateline london. i'm shaun ley. president donald trump denounces iran, but leaves it to congress to decide the future of the nuclear deal. theresa may tells the eu's brexit negotiators the ball‘s in your court — only to see it bounce back again. and will the spanish government
or the catalans blink first? to discuss those three examples of what you might call buck passing, celia matha de pablo of la razon newspaper in spain, agnes poirier of the french magazine marianne, the columnist yasmin alibhai—brown and broadcaster michael goldfarb. welcome to you all. thank you for being with us again. michael, let me start with you on the question of iran. why the hostile to this nuclear deal, after all the years of negotiation, the apparent achievement and what prospect congress will follow the lead donald trump set? let us unpack that. there's always been resistance, particularly on the republican side, and there is the added level of the trump thing of wanting to undo the obama presidency. in the old days in the soviet union, stalin would erase pictures of trotsky, so trotsky was a non—person, and that is what trump is trying to do here, he is undoing obamacare and the other stuff.
that is one thing. the second is that this deal, its success was it took one thing, one item on the iranian influence in the world, which was the nuclear side, which is the existential threat, because you start a nuclear arms race in the middle east, we're really in trouble, separated that out and negotiated a reasonable way of monitoring and stopping progress towards a nuclear weapon. but for most republicans and for people who support them, the idea is why separate it out? because iran is busy fomenting, and it is true, all manner of violent anti—american, anti—israeli mischief in the middle east, from hezbollah and its support of the assad regime. now they have complete control, they are questioning it. the thing is, once you get a deal like the nuclear deal, you know, you don't
walk away from it. especially because it involves your principle partners in managing the world. i think president macron actually rang the iranian president and said, "look, donald trump doesn't speakfor us." no, he doesn't, but he is still the american president. but imagine, from the beginning, you know, as you say about obama, during the obama presidency, the republicans were attacking obama for squandering the american leadership, and this is what the republicans with trump are doing today. it is a narrative of withdrawing, withdrawing from, of course, the paris agreement on the environment, a few days ago from the unesco, and now from this iranian deal, which is not perfect, but it is there. but he had something to say,
donald trump, about the role, not on the nuclear side so much, but the role of the iranian revolutionary guard and he was pretty clear he sees this as being as big a problem as the nuclear one? i think, there is all of what you have said but there is also — i think he is itching for a war. i know that there is something in this man, he understands now that all the things he has promised he has not been able to deliver in the way he thought he could, so there is that itch to look macho. so we have had the north korea drama, now we have the iranian drama. i can't bear the iranian regime, i can't bear them, but at the same time, for america, which has created so many unnecessary wars around the world, to kind of start picking on those aspects, i mean, you know, i think we should do something about iran, and what it did
in syria, all of that, but all of this is american exceptionalism, which now we are reaching a point in world history where it is no longer playing, how many people believe america is the leader of the world any more? i don't. that's. .. are you asking me? look, this is off iran, but there was a very fine article that came out this week, this is the chinese communist party is having its big party congress this week. the ft had some good quotes. they don't regard — and this is very dangerous — they don't regard the us as being a leader or a competitor in some ways, and i think that, you know, on the one hand, yasmine and i have been on this programme for 20 years and she has never accepted american leadership, not once. never will.
we will find it is a dangerous world without american leadership. it is easier. we have to focus on iran and america, but i think that it is important also to see how is the situation of united kingdom, because obviously, with iran, it is another example of how close is united kingdom to the european side, so with the brexit, obviously, how isolated is going to be united kingdom in all of this, with iran, with the climate change, it was clear again that the united kingdom was closer to european side. so i think that donald trump is not making the things very easy for theresa may right now. do you think there is legitimate grounds for criticising the iran deal itself? some republicans have said, look, there are sunset clauses, which means some of the agreements will expire by 2025. there is no guarantee they will be renewed,
so we will have lifted sanctions, we have helped fund the revolutionary guard, because, as the president in iran has said, he has criticised the irc, to give the acronym, they are taking some of that money, that is the accusation, so us isn't helping by having lifted sanctions. there are ways of looking at that. again, this gets into so much paper and detail. i am not up on it, i confess. some of the accounts that have been frozen, it is from oil sales, it goes into the more general economy. once it is in the general economy and it is taxed back into the government, how do you isolate this dollar that came from this bank has gone into the pocket of this general, who is fighting against america in syria or has gone to build another set of tunnels for hezbollah so they can
launch their next attack on israel. there is no way of following that kind of money. so i do doubt that a bit. i also think, you know, ten years is an awfully long time, and even if donald trump was to be elected to two terms, which i doubt, that is only, that is still leaving us short of the sunset clause. ten years is a long time. i think it is important, what was achieved, for most people in the middle east, and actually further than that, the fact that israel has nuclear weaponry and no—one else is allowed to is a big resistance point. it is a pulse. the fact that obama was able to persuade the iranians to let go of that injustice, which it is, was a remarkable thing, actually, to get that settlement for ten years. what is interesting is ten years ago, would you have imagined that israel and saudi arabia would be working the united states government to do precisely this, which is, you know, the israelis
have been against this, the saudis certainly are against this deal, because of regional competition. nothing that is going to strengthen iran... i can't imagine that israel and saudi would have been on the same page. now we have quiet interests. i wouldn't say allies — or they wouldn't admit that. is there a danger in what donald trump has decided, that effectively he may weaken the exact forces in iran that might be most sympathetic to the west, if any are particularly, but maybe those that would look to an opening of the relationship? we can look at the agreement details, but it is not the subject. of course you will find something that is not quite good enough, but in the last two years, i mean, a lot of people just now go to iran, and i think that is something
to cherish and the iranians are happy to see a lot of westerns coming, and this is how you open up minds as much as the economy, and, you know, remember the terrible tension between the west and iran, and hundreds of civil servants in europe, in america and elsewhere, worked on that agreement. it has to stay. even the generals in america say, well, actually it works. except one mad one on the bbc, complete crazy, did you hear him? he wants the war, he wants it now. if he's a complete crazy, he shouldn't be on the bbc. i assume he wasn't a serving general if he was allowed on the bbc to talk about that! celia mentioned the context of iran in term of the eu's role and british's relationship. in brussels, brexit negotiators end their latest round of talks politely agreeing that they don't agree. there are disagreements, too, on the british side over how far
the government should go to prepare for no deal at all. the chancellor, philip hammond, under fire from pro—brexit mps, may have shored—up his position by calling the europeans "the enemy" — though he later apologised for his choice of words — but the british are still hoping for a "green light" later in the week. agnes, they are hoping for that green light from the meeting of heads of government in brussels, to move from talking about the divorce, to life after the divorce. in other words the trading relationship. are they going to get it? no, i mean they won't. they will and they won't. that sounds like a classic eu position. no. it is baffling to see britain acting the way it is, you know. a lot of talk is about how michel barnier‘s this arrogant fool. he is not speaking for himself, he has 27 states that unanimously agreed that the two things first were the divorce bill and the fate
of eu citizens living in the united kingdom, britain thinks it can be left to the end. well, no, it can't. but there is the european council summit next week. i want to pick you up on that. could you not argue there is inflexibility in the eu negotiating position? you are smiling, but let me make the point. take northern ireland. that was one of the things at the heart of this. there is northern ireland, the border, that will be about the trading relationship when britain leaves the eu, to say we can't talk about that until we have agreed the divorce term, we can't talk to you about trade. that is daft. well, the inflexibility, i think, comes from the british government, if you want my opinion. we do, that is what you are here for! as for northern ireland, the fact this british government didn't think it would be a problem, but let us go back to — or let us go forward to next week, european council summit.
so the 27 have agreed to talk about post—brexit transition and trade deals with — but without the uk, so there is an opening, perhaps, before christmas that they will convene again. it will be like the first world war, all over by christmas. what about the children? really? what about the children? it is like a worst divorce, between, certainly i think the, we are behaving much worse than the eu, and the younger generations are the people who have grown up european, and you know, for their sake, there needs to be a much wiser way of working than letting these kind of hound dogs of brexit rule the way they are ruling. defend the british, have they not got quite a reasonable point? we are your second oldest ally — after we had a row in the 17th century.
we will pass that one. and a second bite of the cherry in 1812. we never forget that! i thought it was the british who never forget a slight! there you go! look, it would be very nice ifjean—claude juncker kept his mouth shut. president of the commission. the commission is the commission. they are the problem, they have — in fact it is the elevation of the commission to being, you know, the satans of the european project. that has created a lot of the misperceptions in this country. you know, we know that europe is basically the german chancellor and the french president, and this is how it works, and that is fine because they are the biggest and the strongest, but i will say, you know, money is money, and just to throw this out there — at the congress of vienna, castlereagh, who was representing
britain was constantly being barraged by london, make sure you get the money out of the austrians and the prussians because we financed this war against napoleon. meanwhile, they are carving up europe. britain didn't care — just get us the money. can i say, as you say, obviously france and germany are very powerful in the european union, and precisely because they both are disagreeing with the way of, have a deal or have a kind of agreement in the next european summit, our focus in this kind of progress, in terms of the trade, i think it is going to be very difficult to have an agreement before christmas. having said that, i think it is very important to bear in mind what happened in the last week, and again, the option of no deal is again on the table, and in that sense, i think it is going to be very important to see how — it is going to be the reshuffle next week and is philip hammond is going to survive.
everyone knows that philip hammond is the only, if we can say that, pro europe minister, so maybe without philip hammond, the government, theresa may is going to have a lot of pressure from the eurosceptics to have this no deal again. for those that don't follow it, philip hammond is the finance minister. he is hugely important. theresa may is a prisoner of these hound dogs, as i call them. the british prime minister. the florence speech was a decent civilised speech. the language was good, the moves were good. she comes back and she reverts, and that shows that this isn't about europe versus britain, it is about remainers versus brexiters, as well as the tory party tearing each other apart, and i think this is unforgivable. the national interest is being sacrificed to them. you could have said that at any time. i moved here in 85.
you could have said that during any conservative government. i don't think we have been in a position where something so fundamentally historically serious is happening, which cannot be reversed. elections come and go. we cannot reverse this. go back to the children. think about the children. it is very important the split inside of the conservative party and i remark again that theresa may has no authority at all right now. on that basis, there is an interesting comparison to be drawn between what is happening in the uk, and the authority of the uk government, and what is happening in your country in spain. if you were with us a week ago, you may recall lively exchanges over the violent scenes as spanish police tried to stop catalonia's independence referendum. the country's highest courts say it's unlawful to try to break away. on tuesday, the catalan president signed the declaration of independence — then promptly suspended it. spain's prime minister mariano rajoy
has set a deadline of monday, after which he could impose direct rule. i put you on the spot, do you think he is going to? i will say tuesday was supposed to be the day when we are going to know whether the catalan president was going to declare the independence, but here we are, nobody knows the answer yet, so that speech was very vague, very confusing, and the most important thing is he declared independence, few seconds later, congress was closed and the parties sign a document, declaring independence, because it was not in the parliament, there was no legal effect. everything is so confusing so as you say, the central government saying official letter requiring the catalan president, if he declared independence or not, and obviously depending on the answer the central government is going to act in one way or another. but i think that is the catalan
president has no pressure from the central government, but from his own colleagues because right now, the parties are... obviously they are very worried about the economic situation. we have to bear in mind that more than 500 companies and banks have moved from catalonia to other places in spain, and it is very important they don't have the support of the international community. you are speaking from a french perspective, is there concern in france about the kind of knock on effect? at the moment the basque region is french and spanish, and... no, none whatsoever. interesting. the basques have a betterfinancial deal than the catala ns? the achievement of the president is, of course, it was terrible to see the police arriving and moving forcibly young children and theirgrandmothers, that was outrageous,
but he managed to make those secessionist nationalistics, who are nasty people, look great and brave and good. you know, there is a reason why a nation should become independent. if it lives under oppression, the culture, and the language are not allowed to be spoken and you know, and live in totalitarian life. catalan is a flourishing state. it enjoys autonomy like all the regions in spain. why should it want to separate from a very old nation state? also, yes, i really don't see any legitimacy. i think this is a disease of the 21st century, this romance with separation for the most spurious reasons. selfish reasons.
often these are tribal, ugly instincts, nation states are not perfect, and the way they acted over the demonstration — what was heartening was the people in catalonia who didn't want to separate. just like... who came out finally. i did a podcast that looks at the critical question for the 21st century — what is a nation? what is a nation state? in a globalised economy, where people, i remember this during the crash, you could go to the city, and i did, because i was reporting, and you would find italians betting against the bond yields of their countrymen, leading to tens of thousands of people, italian people, being put out of work so young... no, but the elites have no allegiance to any boundaries, so what do the traditional boundaries mean? since the break down
of the soviet union, how many new countries are there in europe and out of the soviet union? how many would there be if this trend continues? you would have 1,200... how would you have have international agreements? how would you do that? how do you define what a nation is? one of the problems is our parties around europe, and i will focus on spain as the case. it is important they agree about the declaration on independence, but is the coalition of parties, they don't agree anything else. so when they are going to have the republic, they don't have any plan to rule this political republic, so i think that right now in spain, the separatist parties lost its momentum last tuesday. no, there is no place in the wider world of europe, here watching on this television,
watching the bbc in spain, i know, does this get through to that. there is not a lot of support, and people say you have got it so good. why are you doing this? in case of the catalan president, what happens we discuss about the images with the police, obviously, those pictures are horrendous, but with those it was very easy for the parties to say to the international community, "what happened? " "look what happened when we went". but right now, when you see the whole thing, and the way they want to press to have this illegal republic, the international community has made very very clear they are going to support the central government, obviously this is an illegal and undemocratic way. one chink is the commission on the future of the spanish constitution. i think the former belgian prime minister said we went through this with flanders in the ‘90s,
that was threatening to break away. the solution was a properly federal country, do you think that could be a solution? the president of spain has made it clear he is willing to accept that, in terms of the constitution, the spanish constitution, everyone is talking about the spanish constitution, the spanish constitution is one of greatest constitutions in europe, in terms that it developed so much powerto the regions, 0k? so having said that, the negotiation is open, but if the separatist parties were drawn to the legacy and legal framework. the federation, is that a future way forward? there is obviously a feeling among a lot of people in catalonia, that you know, they should matter more, but i think to do that, and that was why it was a mistake
to send in the force and behave in that brutish way, kind of a macho way to show who is boss, that was unwise. but in the end, as we saw with northern ireland, the only thing that can happen is proper, respectful dialogue, foresight, and what is good for everyone, and i am sure the spaniards will do it. you said what is a nation? i am sure there are plenty of definitions. we have only a minute or so left. for me it is abstract, that is the problem, collective and indivisible. the french republic is indivisible. you have the answer. with liberty and justice for all. we pledge to the flag every morning. stop it! stop being american again!
stop it! we will end on that fraternal note. that's all we have time for today. do join us again next week same time same place. but for now, thank you for watching, and goodbye. hello there. some warm weather and some windy weather to come over the next couple of days. it's certainly been warming up in southern areas today, especially where we had some sunshine. sunny skies by day translate into clear skies overnight,
with a few patches of cloud and maybe the odd mist patch. for northern ireland and scotland, more cloud, some outbreaks of rain, a strong wind, maybe galeforce gusts for some exposed spots. temperatures 12—14 degrees, a very mild night indeed. tomorrow, quite a breezy day, particularly in the north—west. outbreaks of rain spreading slowly southwards and eastwards across northern ireland and scotland. england and wales, quite a cloudy start for many but things brightening up, especially in central and eastern areas, where we get the best of the sunshine. temperatures could possibly get as high as 22—23 degrees. but for the start of the new week, we are looking at this. hurricane ophelia, currently in the atlantic, it won't be a hurricane as it reaches our shores but could still bring some very windy weather indeed, particularly in the west. this is bbc news. i'm shaun ley. the headlines at five: a canadian, kidnapped with his wife and held for nearly five years in afghanistan, speaks for the first time about the ordeal at the hands of the taliban. it's of incredible importance to my family that we are able
to build a secure sanctuary for three surviving children to call a home, to focus on edification and to try to regain some portion of the childhood they have lost. tougher sentences for the perpetrators of acid attacks — victims give a cautious welcome to proposals for minimum jail terms. the fear of going to jail is always a deterrent in some way, even if it's a small way. so a start is good, is what i'm saying. there's more that needs to be done, but a start is always good. also in the next hour: the hollywood establishment holds crisis talks over harvey weinstein. oscars officials are meeting to discuss the academy's response to multiple accusations of sexual assault by the founder of miramax.
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