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tv   Dateline London  BBC News  March 31, 2018 11:30am-12:00pm BST

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it was a dreadful day, the worst in some years and i don't think there isa some years and i don't think there is a reasonable hope that the un security council or the united states as a broker that is now seen as closely allied with israel, i do not see the outside world stopping this. all we can hope for is there is no excavation in the coming hours over the holidays. the idea of peaceful protest is invaluable but it obviously went sour yesterday and ina way it obviously went sour yesterday and in a way we can do is hope because onceit in a way we can do is hope because once it spreads it will get worse and worse. catherine, the suggestion has been that the choice of time to have this protest was particularly provocative? i think it was because of the marking of passover, the greatjewish feast. that was all aboutjewish greatjewish feast. that was all about jewish liberation and greatjewish feast. that was all aboutjewish liberation and freeing themselves from the egyptians so it is provocative. but i think it also equally provocative for the israelis
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to do this, they are i think playing into the hands of hamas with their response and that will gain hamas sympathy from around the world which isa sympathy from around the world which is a big problem. brian, this is a crude comparison to talk about ireland in this context but in the sense of the difficulties between armed forces who are in uniform and groups of civilians who are protesting, the israelis say there we re protesting, the israelis say there were armed men within the groups, they are using them as human shields, this is a tactic. what the outside world sees is civilians being shot at by military in uniform. the pr of that, whatever the substance of it is potentially very damaging for israel. it is but ido very damaging for israel. it is but i do not think israel any more. they think they can do what they like, the un does not do anything, donald trump will move the american embassy
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tojerusalem. there trump will move the american embassy to jerusalem. there is trump will move the american embassy tojerusalem. there is no talks going on, there is no real hope at the moment that the two state solution can get back on the agenda andi solution can get back on the agenda and i think that is why israel thinks it can actually use live ammunition against unarmed civilians through a fence. as mark said this morning... the israeli ambassador in london... yes he said it was because ofa london... yes he said it was because of a breach of security, would you get to when your army in uniform as you say is firing live ammunition against unarmed civilians? no matter how provocative it is. how will this play in the united states?” how provocative it is. how will this play in the united states? i think there is fatigue in the united states, there is a sense of helplessness and a sense of, so many crises all over the world. really,
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people will look at this and just wa nt to people will look at this and just want to look away is what i think is going to happen. the us is focused ina way going to happen. the us is focused in a way on gun violence at home and these repeated massacres at high schools and how in the world we can control that and i think people are just going to see this as one more horrible holiday horrific event happening far away. is there any life in the suggestion that jared kushner had a peace plan, has a plan and that could be an opportunity for restarting some sort of negotiation? no, ithink restarting some sort of negotiation? no, i think the idea of him as peacemaker has been around 16 months oi’ peacemaker has been around 16 months 01’ so peacemaker has been around 16 months or so perhaps longer and nobody has seen anything. there is no reason to believe he will be seen at by the palestinians as an honest broker and he also faces a lot of questions at home about his role in these events related to russia and the 2016 campaign. isee
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related to russia and the 2016 campaign. i see that a something which is not likely to get off the ground. younis, the un secretary general is a former portuguese prime minister, he's an interesting individual, as much a politician as a diplomat, is he somebody you think would want to take an initiative on an issue like this? i think he would be very interested in that given his profile. the question is has the un secretary general, he can only do so much. we have reached a situation i'iow much. we have reached a situation now with regards to the middle east conflict that there is no hope and i think the protest happened because essentially there is no hope. gaza isa essentially there is no hope. gaza is a prison for palestinians, the israeli government has transformed gaza into a life prison. people living in desperate lives. protest is the only weapon may have in their hands and it is appalling, i think the un has to come out very strongly against these criminal acts. 15—16
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civilians killed, thousands injured. this is unacceptable and i think what is the danger, we are so desensitised to the violence and the daily injustices that palestinians suffer and have been suffering for years, something has to happen. it is true the us administration will have no positive contribution for sorting out this conflict but we cannot lose hope. there has to be pressure coitiii'ig cannot lose hope. there has to be pressure coming from somewhere because this is unsustainable. this is terrible. let's move on to a subject we just keep talking about which is of course brexit. the uk hasjust begun the 12 month countdown to brexit at 11pm greenwich meantime on 29th march 2019 the midnight hour in brussels, where the european union is based. negotiations need to be completed much sooner, though, because the final deal has to be endorsed by several parliaments. this weekend is the twentieth anniversary of the good friday agreement, the political deal which help to end 30 years of violence.
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for the previous 30 years the land border between northern ireland and the republic used to bristle with security checkpoints. checks of sorts will have to be restored, even if just for customs purposes. for now the dispute has been parked. brian, can you explain why this border dispute is more thanjust brian, can you explain why this border dispute is more than just a question of customs duties and trade? it is a question of customs duties and trade and as you say, because once one side of the border is no longer in the eu it's the only eu land border the uk. the reason it's so important to the republic of ireland is a cause of the economic factors that come with it. it is the case that it is issues of identity which caused the troubles in
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northern ireland, which makes this border so sensitive. and it is as you mentioned earlier the good friday agreement which brought some kind of resolution to that. but the good friday agreement 20th anniversary coming up in a couple of daysis anniversary coming up in a couple of days is an ongoing process. it was not a single event in time. and if you don't keep it going, things will slip back. if you put physical infrastructure on the border, even if its technological infrastructure as the british government has suggested, little on customs post, it will a target. that is what happens and i've said it before i think on this programme, tell me what happens when you put a small camera on top of a very large paul and it's a no—brainer. the technical solution that the brexit secretary david davis has talked about as far
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as the irish government is concerned isa as the irish government is concerned is a non—runner. but if you leave aside the issues of remain and lead and everything else and just look at where we are now time is running out very fast. the irish government has been all round the other 26 remaining eu members and has solid support for the agreement that the uk government has signed up to so far that if they cannot find a solution... if they cannot come up with enough cameras and enough balls as it where... the default option would be that northern ireland would have two adhere to single market regulations, custom union regulations, custom union regulations and so on. the other two options which the british have said would work would be number one that they negotiate a free trade agreement with the eu therefore obviating the need for border controls, that would take years. it will not happen within any deadline
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coming up now certainly. and the second one is technological. catherine the difficulty is that default approach, if it is adopted, then you have unionists in northern ireland saying we are effectively being treated separately from the rest of the uk and that challenges their sense of identity? that is absolutely right. and of course we have an issue within all this that theresa may is so dependent on the democratic unionists to stay in power and therefore the democratic unionists have a particular muscle to flex your. the thing which strikes me when people talk about the border between ireland and the north is that border zones occur straight line but of course with ireland and northern ireland it isn't at all. it's a very curvy and crinkly line. 500 kilometres. there are people who do it, somebody said
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there are more crossing points on there are more crossing points on the 500 squiggly kilometres of the irish border than the entire eastern land border of the eu covering the whole of eastern europe. that is a handy fact for a pub quiz. in practical terms, how do you police that? i think it will make it an impossibility. so it seems to me that the customs union is the way forward. theresa may has ruled that out but her chancellor thinks that a customs union with the eu for the whole of the uk is the way to go and they may well be plenty of tory mps who feel that too. there are brexiteers who supported brexit who feel this is being used as a convenient red rag to wave, to make brexit difficult, after 20 years of comparative calm and northern ireland, lots of evidence, the murder rate is the same as the rest of the uk for example after the
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terrible rate of data used to see, it has gone. a new generation has come through and actually and the irish government and the european camillus are plain politics. and britain is playing politics to because essentially what has happened is the european union has said we will not start negotiating the future relationship with the united kingdom before the irish question is addressed and britain wants to use the irish question as a bargaining chip during those negotiations. hoping to mollify the european union in terms of accepting the trade—off that britain wants which is financial services and so on. but they are not seeing eye to eye. the eu is plain hardballand its 27 member states, it's a massive market and a very powerful actor and britain is a medium—sized power. on top of that the european union is seeing its a very divided government, theresa may is not in
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full control and they will explore that as much as they can. and it does not help, the fact that she has refused to go and visit the border. that's been quite an issue this week when she was doing the tour of the uk, she went to northern ireland, there were requests for her to visit there were requests for her to visit the border and she said she would not visit it before brexit is negotiated. it is necessary, given the importance. everyone else has been there. david davis has been there to be fair. but the prime minister... these questions of signals, catherine has mentioned theresa may needs the support of the democratic unionists so people say she cannot be an impartial observer and jeremy corbyn the leader of the labour party with long and strong links with republicans and he's not trusted by the unionists, if he
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became prime minister that problem of trust would not disappear and then the irish government, the foreign minister saying i can imagine in my political life there would be a united ireland which gets the unionists on the defensive. nobody seems to be considering how this plays in ireland on either side of the border. we are all here for the referendum, it's amazing nobody, not a soul raised this question, excuse me, if we vote to leave what we do with the border, thank you very much, here is now completely... it came up during the referendum campaign but it was not... john akinde did not bubble up. despite john major and tony blair making an appearance... they talk 0ver each other i am sure you're right but it was not a huge issue so now you have this in my view completely unsolvable problem us with a long history of fudging, there will be some magnificent tremendously
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imaginative fudge which will allow the world to keep functioning but what i think is so great about good friday, i covered those negotiations and what was so great was its elastic, it sort of not working, there is no devolved government. but there is no devolved government. but there is no fighting, the murder rate is down, i believe the knee capping rate is down, it's de facto working and the border question is a huge distraction. the good friday agreement was created around, was formed around i think they called it creative ambiguity or constructive ambiguity. so for example the word disarmament was never used, it was always decommissioning, putting weapons aside, this kind of thing. northern ireland politics has run along those lines for a long time. the problem with this issue of the border is that it is right up against the buffers in terms of the brexit deadlines. they are probably
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the june council, the european council meeting. after that the october deadline for the final agreement on brexit before we go into the... ratification. yes and then the transition period. we're running out of time very fast and this northern ireland issue, since article 50 started has been pushed down the pipe and we're running out of pipe. i think despite all the pressure the irish government is placing on this issue, considering the red lines of the british government it's likely the final outcome will be essentially the hard border because no access to the single market, not being part of a customs union so that means the actual separation... i detect a hardening in the attitude of the irish government as we get closer to this. they have put a huge amount of work into lobbying the remaining 26 eu countries and they believe they have the support behind them and if they do, if it does go to the wire and they have to invoke the backstop agreement they will push all the way
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for it and i think they have michel barnier onside for that if they have to. it's not the only place in the world where there is a border between countries that are trading partners. america and canada managed to have found a good solution haven't they, to the border? where the emphasis is on checking people but there's quite a free transfer of goods? i believe so, i have not been there in many years but it's been trouble—free. there in many years but it's been trouble-free. you have did you an hour and trouble-free. you have did you an hourand a trouble-free. you have did you an hour and a half to cross it!|j trouble-free. you have did you an hour and a half to cross it! i am sorry, i'm not apologising for the border. different kind of trouble, perhaps you need a wall? whether or not you mark the religious festivals this weekend, as it's the time when whoever is pope delivers a message of hope, we wanted to give our panel the chance to deliver an easter message of their own. starting with pope francis catherine, he has ordered that the cat among the pigeons with an interview with repubblica in italy
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suggesting, said he has suggested that held is not exist, that something other than hell awaits those who refuse to repent? one of the problems with this interview was the problems with this interview was the person he was interviewed by does not use a tape recorder or take notes so how reliable this is i'm notes so how reliable this is i'm not sure. i was interested in this story because yesterday i was in salisbury reporting on that fair and i went into a church and i went into a church which has the most amazing medieval mural of the lastjudgment which includes people being swallowed up by an incredible dragon and in many ways our views of hell have not really changed that much. it's the place for bad people to go. of course it's the place for bad people to go. 0f coursejohn paul sartre said hell is other people so it is here already. but most people think it's already. but most people think it's a place to go. and while we might
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not want to end up there ourselves i think some people will see pope francis comments as a blow if there is no place to go because they want other people to go there. a lot of people would feel they have been cheated if adolph hitler or stalin and whoever did not end up in hell. so leaving aside hell and what might happen, unrepentant souls might vanish, what would be your message for this easter, your message for the world? well, i think, we've not been very cheery in this episode so this is a bit more cheaply. but easter is about the resurrection of christ, it's about life coming back. that reminds me of spring, spring and are part of the world anyway where we have new life after the dead of winter. we have a
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responsibility to our planet. we have a responsibility to this new life emerging. pope francis when he's written about this planet talks about it being our common home and i think we should all try to make an effort that are common home will thrive and that connects us with new life and the spring. and what about you greg? i may celebrate passover but i have a more secular thought on the day stephen hawking's funeral is taking place, he said something like you should look about the star is down your feet, not down at your feet and my version of that is less astronomical but my messages the world is way more beautiful if you are looking at it without your phone in front of you. less dangerous potentially as well! if you boot your phone down and look at the stars it's a lot more beautiful than looking at the stars on the screen.
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are you frustrated by the amount the phone has become a proxy for things we otherwise did, at concerts people don'tjust go for we otherwise did, at concerts people don't just go for example, we otherwise did, at concerts people don'tjust go for example, they hold the phone up so they can record. don'tjust go for example, they hold the phone up so they can recordm drives me insane, i saw bob dylan to an outdoor crowd and everyone was either on the phone and i was like i wa nt either on the phone and i was like i want to hear it thanks very much but i will be quiet now. before you do, how frustrating is it as a priestess gin in london are you by... it is dangerous, it's pretty out of control. my larger point is the world is beautiful, you have to look at it sometimes. that is the danger we on this programme inevitably talk a lot about conflict which is how we get debate and argument, but is this a time of year when you feel particularly optimistic?” a time of year when you feel particularly optimistic? i would like to start by saying i am agnostic, i used to be an atheist but i have moved on as i aged two and agnostic position. i think we
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should take these rituals, these moments in the christian calendar because we live in a christian country, i also come from a christian country, to reflect upon our practices and to think about what can be, what is important of those religious traditions that can improve the world around us and i think we are living such disturbing times where actually the words of human beings is coming out in terms of lack of empathy. —— the worse of human beings. i think it would be good if christian societies started to practice the christian value of empathy and tolerance and generosity which is contained in that seeing of love thy neighbour. that whole question features and two things we talked about, the conflict between israel and palestine and to a certain extent what is happening in ireland in the recent past but on the israeli—palestinian question, do you feel there is a real sense of two community is not empathising
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with one another? yes and i think it got worse as we advance the cause i think ten years ago the idea of the two state solution was something as a valuable option. i know there are very few people who believe in this two state solution. because of the attitudes of israel and the dispossession and hopelessness of the palestinians. it is a paradox, it's an age where we ought to know more about each other than we ever did before not least because of forums and social media and the connectivity of the world. phones drive me mad to be perfectly honest. the pope is going to ireland, the republic of ireland in august for a couple of days. my wish would be to see him do what theresa may didn't do and go north of the border where
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the bishop of newly in the dioceses has had to resign over his handling ofa has had to resign over his handling of a paedophile priest. the former president of ireland and the canon lawyer of some repute was banned from the vatican for speaking at a women's conference in the vatican a few weeks ago because she said the catholic church was misogynistic, homophobic and asked what would it do to accommodate the 600 million women who are barred from the priesthood given that all the work of the church comes via the priesthood. there is no answer, she said pope francis five years has been a disappointment and as a practising catholic i agree with what she said and i would like to hear from the pope on that because certainly massive tendencies in
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ireland are declining rapidly. thank you all very much, however you are celebrating, if you're marking easter this weekend or next weekend happy easter to you and thank you whoever you are and wherever you are for watching us on dateline. we will be back at the same time next week, for now from all of us, goodbye. good friday was wet for many parts of the uk and it will be wet through the rest of today but probably not quite as wet as it has been. there are still rivers on flood warning at the moment, we had this picture sent in earlierfrom north
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the moment, we had this picture sent in earlier from north yorkshire, the moment, we had this picture sent in earlierfrom north yorkshire, the breezily wind throwing in these winds and rain, snow still falling over the higher ground, the best of the brightness across the north and west of scotland and northern ireland with sunshine and a few showers. we might see as the weather system slowly trundled its weak eastwards some brightly skies, drier skies materialising but the west are infringers, most of us the low cloud sprayer standing water, its going to bea sprayer standing water, its going to be a damp day is not a wet day and feeling called particularly near the north sea coast with the called air blowing off the north sea. the drying up continues through the night, and clearing skies for the west sunshine tomorrow ahead of that a slight frost probably quite a hard frost and the widespread one across scotla nd frost and the widespread one across scotland in particular because it's been so damp we'll see mist and fog as we head towards the morning hours which will clear first time. the start of april. sandwiched between weather systems. this one coming
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from the south and west, it looks like the driest day of this long weekend easter day that is. there will be remnants of the weather front in eastern areas but it will fragment, brightness coming through, sunshine and a few showers, few snow showers for scotland but good sunshine in the south and west but in the afternoon and approach of the next weather system will blag at the sunshine and bring with it rain. indeed easter monday that process, the weather system continues to go north blotting into the called air turning into snow mostly over the hell is some lower levels will see snow as well in heavy bursts, it turns more mild with heavy showers in the south through the course of the day, the contrast in weather but clearly for easter monday when potentially many people will be returning from the long weekend and on the roads with the risk of snow it's not good news, there are
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warnings out on the website. goodbye. this is bbc news. i'm shaun ley. the headlines at midday: two british men accused of carrying out beheadings for the so—called islamic state have complained that they won't get a fair trial after losing their citizenship. moscow more than doubles the number of british diplomats it plans to expel in the continuing row over the salisbury poisoning. gunshots the un calls for an independent investigation as 16 palestinians are killed in clashes on the israeli—gaza border. the head of metropolitan police blames social media for normalising violence and leading more children to commit stabbings and murders. creative subjects like art and drama are being cut by schools to save money. that's the verdict of britain's largest teaching union as it begins its
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