tv Victoria Derbyshire BBC News February 27, 2019 10:00am-11:01am GMT
hello it's wednesday, it's 10 o'clock, i'm victoria derbyshire. good morning. the nhs needs to start taking the link between autism and anorexia seriously and recognise it in official guidelines. that's what one charity has told this programme exclusively, as research shows that one in five women who develop anorexia may also have autism. i became obsessed with counting calories. they put me in a wheelchair and said my weight was so low, i would need to be sectioned. have you got both conditions? let me know. does your student loan statement confuse you, or worry you, or both? top universities and a financial advice website think it's time to rip up the existing statements and set them out differently so people understand how much debt they have to pay back. the country's leading financial
expert martin lewis is here to talk about his idea for a new statement, along with students who find the current loans system very confusing. a shooting range in wallasey has defended its use of this image of shamima begum as target practice, saying it's had a record number of requests to aim a repurposed gun at her picture. and the so—called momo challenge — a creepy image of a doll targeting children online started by hackers is now being copycatted and spread more widely. we'll hearfrom one mum whose daughter was sent the challenge by other teenagers. hello. welcome to the programme. we're live until 11 this morning. some of you have already got in touch about our story about the link between anorexia and autism.
and whether or not it is taken seriously enough by the nhs. anna on twitter — i need to watch this. my 15 year old has just been diagnosed with asd after developing an anorexia type eating disorder. struggling to put it mildly. sarah on twitter — most autistic women have either disordered eating or eating disorders. jr on email — i took part in this research study by autistica. i have autism and anorexia and been in hospital several times for low weight, but not had my disordered eating understood. for me, it isn t about weight. i have to eat the same food items at the same time every single day and have the same amount too. professionals need to understand that there is far more to anorexia or disordered eating than losing weight to get thin.
fire crews have been battling a blaze on swarthmore in north yorkshire. i think this is possibly one of the biggest fires i have seen in west yorkshire for wildfire. because it is going through header, it does have a real high flame because it is so combustible so it is quite dramatic to see but it is nothing we can steal with. labour mps have criticised their colleague chris williamson for saying the party has been "too apologetic" over antisemitism. in footage published by the yorkshire post, mr williamson, who is a close ally ofjeremy corbyn, told activists labour was being "demonised as a racist, bigoted party". deputy leader tom watson said he had been "deliberately inflammatory". the brexit secretary, stephen barclay, has insisted a no—deal brexit is still "on the table". mr barclay said he didn't want to see a delay to britain's departure from the eu, after theresa may promised mps
a vote on it, if her withdrawal agreement is rejected for a second time next month. there'll be votes in the commons on a number of amendments to the government's negotiating strategy today. the nhs must change the way it assesses eating disorders to take account of a link with autism, a research charity has said. autistica said it thinks as many as a fifth of women attending uk clinics with anorexia may also have autism, and says appropriate therapy is vital. one woman has told the victoria derbyshire programme that her autism had made her "obsessed" with counting calories, even though she did not want to lose weight. we'll have more on this story coming up in a moment. tensions have continued to escalate between india and pakistan, with islamabad saying it's carried out air strikes on its neighbour's territory, and shot down two indian planes. it says two pilots have been captured. islamabad insisted it had no choice
after india carried out air strikes against alleged militants on its territory yesterday. marks & spencer and ocado have confirmed a deal which will give the high street retailer a home delivery service for the first time. m&s will buy half of ocado's retail business for £750m as part of the deal. the joint venture will deliver m&s products from september 2020, when ocado's deal with waitrose expires. emma thompson has revealed she quit an animated project because the company making it had hired john lasseter. lasseter was recruited to head skydance animation following his departure from pixar in the wake of claims he sexually harassed female colleagues. in a letter, thompson questioned the studio "hiring someone with mr lasseter‘s pattern of misconduct". and that is a summary of our main news today. back to you, victoria.
later on the prog, the bbc and itv have announced they are about to create what they hope will be a rival to netflix, called britbox, a british streaming service where you will be able to watch old programmes. will you subsribe — one report said it cld cost 5 quid a month. vinnie says no, i won't. another viewers says i don't need to watch martelli, thanks. quite a few people saying, are they going to scrap the licence fee first because if not then know i am not going to subscribe because it is not like—for—like. gary says we already pay for a bbc tv licence so it is more greed. there is the thumbs down from a few of you. we will talk about this later on. tell us what you think about this new british
streaming service, old itv programmes and bbc programmes. first, there 5 growing evidence of a link between autism and anorexia — that much we know. around one in five women presenting to uk eating disorder clinics with anorexia may also have autism, according to some researchers. many won t know they have autism, which is underdiagnosed and often misdiagnosed in women. now, a leading autism charity, autistica, have exclusively told this programme that they want to change the way the nhs assesses eating disorders to take account of the connection. they want to update what are known as the nice clinical guidelines for anorexia so that they include a reference to autism, which currently isn t mentioned. our reporter louis lee ray has this exclusive report. itjust became sort of an obsession and i became obsessed with counting calories.
they put me in a wheelchair and said my weight was so low i would need to be sectioned. anorexia and autism are two separate conditions. i was 19. i was diagnosed with anorexia. now i'm 2a and was diagnosed with autism. but there's growing evidence the two conditions overlap. a fifth of women asking for help for anorexia are likely to be autistic and that needs to be recognized by nhs services across the country. we need to do something differently for people who have both conditions. so how's this playing out in eating disorder units? this is part of the main corridor for the eating disorder service. and what can be done to help women with both conditions? growing up, i suffered a lot of random issues. i had anxiety, but it mostly seemed normal. it was just a few things that weren't quite right. just to get out...
sophie's 24. she lives with her parents in bristol. she's been obsessive about certain things for most of her life, but one obsession has been more dangerous than any other. when i left school, that's when things started to go downhill. for some reason, ijust started to write down what i was eating. the longer it went on, i started losing weight. but i couldn't stop losing weight because i had just got it fixed in my head, then, the the number of calories i needed to eat. i actually admitted myself into the eating disorder unit because i had started exercising a lot and i wasn't eating anything. i was eating one meal a day. i wasn't sleeping properly and that was when i thought, "if i don't do something, i'm actually going to die." sophie was diagnosed with anorexia. what she didn't know is that she's autistic. now, before we keep going, it might be worth explaining what those two conditions are.
anorexia or anorexia nervosa is a serious mental health condition. people who have anorexia try to keep their weight as low as possible. it's incredibly dangerous because sufferers starve themselves. autism, sometimes called autism spectrum disorders, is a lifelong developmental condition. it affects how a person communicates with and relates to other people and how they experience the world around them. so far, so different, but there's growing evidence of a link, according to this man. there is this substantial group of women who present to eating disorder services with a severe restrictive eating problem and get diagnosed anorexia nervosa who have an undiagnosed autism spectrum condition, and that can impact upon the care they receive. many autistic girls and women don't, if you like, fit our conventional stereotype of what autism looks like. there must be some way in which being autistic increases your risk of developing anorexia nervosa. and it's the nature of that relationship, you know, we're trying
to at the moment to unpick. often, the reasons behind low weight in autistic people with anorexia are different to non—autistic women. it was never about the weight, never about body image. it was always about... the weight has always been secondary to what was going on in my brain. so i was losing weight when i didn't want to, and i couldn't stop losing weight. i hated how i looked. i still hate how i look. i want to put on weight. i want to look nicer, but i can't break the rules. when i was in hospital, it was... it took up a lot of my time. and the treatments in the eating disorder unit didn't work. they put me in a wheelchair and said my weight was so low that if i didn't eat i would need to be sectioned. so i then had one meal that i had to eat it all, and i didn't manage to eat it all, so that's what happened. they forced an ng tube in my nose. i didn't feel i could
breathe properly, and it was it was absolutely horrific. sophie eventually put on some weight. she went back to the eating disorder unit, but she still wasn't eating. and they asked her to leave. it was only later, in 2018, that she was diagnosed with autism. anorexia has the highest death rate of any mental health condition. some sufferers die from complications related to starvation, while others take their own lives, so it's vitally important that treatment works. anorexia is one of the most dangerous mental health conditions, and those women who are autistic as well as having anorexia are at risk of particularly poor outcomes. the national guidelines for nhs clinical practice are written by the national institute for health and care excellence, nice for short. in the section on eating disorders, there's no mention of autism. something will mandy thinks needs to change. i do quite a lot of work with with eating disorder services around the country and there's many, many people there who are aware of this, so the trouble is that that
knowledge is uneven. so there are some services that are much more aware of that, others much less. so that's why i think it's important to have a steer at the national level. one of the country's leading eating disorder services is run out of the maudsley hospital in south london. kate tchanturia leads the clinical psychology team there and conducts research with will mandy. recently in our inpatient treatment programme, we realized that almost 35% of the people who have severe anorexia might have autism spectrum disorder as well. there are simple ways to make services more autism friendly. we can make environment more friendly. we can make communication easier. we can develop strategies and help people to adapt to their community. this is part of the main corridor for the eating disorder service. caroline naughton is a team leader at the eating disorders outpatient service.
so if i show you the patients' kitchen... washing up hasn't been done yet. this kitchen here was created or designed to make it look as much like a domestic kitchen as possible. with autism, we need to make slight changes. they go through the same role as everybody else — they meet the dietician, they know what they're going to have, but it will be on a one to one because there's not too much noise going on, there's no other pots and pans moving around, which can be quite difficult for people. and she does see young women who may also be autistic that haven't been diagnosed. we had one therapist who was dealing with a young woman and in the session week after week the therapist wasn't really able to get anything from her at all. but she would find within two days of the session, the patient had emailed her a long kind of response to all the stuff that was coming up, because for her it was easier to do it electronically than it was to do it in the room. so it's about meeting the individual at their level that they need. there is no clear clinical packages
or treatment packages for how we can support people with both conditions. but kate wants more research to develop better treatments for autistic people with anorexia, and sophie agrees. we had one therapist who was dealing with a young woman and in the session week after week the therapist wasn't really able there needs to be a lot more awareness about how not everyone is the same, and there might be a group of people who have undiagnosed autism, which is why they're struggling with what they're struggling with. for now, she's keen to move on with her life. this has been my life. it's just been revolved around food, eating disorder, doctor's appointments, hospital. i haven't been able to work. it's just taken away a big chunk of my life and i want to move on, and i want to help other people. we can speak now to vikie shanks, whose daughter pippa has anorexia and autism, drjames cusack, director of science at autistica and dr andrea brown, a consultant psychiatrist
at at an nhs specialist eating disorder service called the schoen clinic in york. how did your doctor develop issues around to eating? that is a complex question. i think anyone on the spectrum has tendencies towards sensory spectrum has tendencies towards sensory issues and a lot of those sensory sensory issues and a lot of those sensory issues and a lot of those sensory issues can be based around food, and certainly with my daughter they were. but her father committed suicide when she was six and she was forced to do with his death and she decided very rigidly that she wanted to remain for a stall because she felt closer to him if she did —— remain four stone. so with pepper, there were a lot of factors. there was drama, there were sensory issues around food, there was the rigidity of thought and the rituals around food that a lot of people on the
spectrum can develop, and i think if you combine all of those, you have got almost the perfect storm for someone to develop another disorder, whether it is an eating disorder or something else. all those factors came together. but it was not about losing weight? know, and i think people have this perception that if you are anorexic it is because you have some kind of body dysmorphia and you look in the mirror and see you are fat when actually you are not. and there are very few, in my experience, who actually has that is the case. with pippa, it certainly was more about, as the lady on the vp said, it is more about the obsession about counting calories. she would scan the chewing gum pack to check it was still one calorie every time she ate it and the exercise she did, she would be very specific about how long and how many
steps she was doing. so it is about adhering to rules. yes, about adhering to rules. yes, about adhering to rules. and things got very serious. she has had to make spells in inpatient facilities. yes, to make long spells. she was in for five months just after her 14th birthday, and then they got her to her goal weight, which was the criteria for being discharge, and then she was discharged and came home and a few months later her weight had dropped again to the point where she was readmitted and she was in for 18 months on that occasion, and her liver was shutting down, her kidneys weren't functioning properly. there was a real danger of her starving herself to death, and she had to be tube fed for a long time. and what impact that that have on her? awful. it is horrific. and also the shame that goes with it. she was so ashamed of her problems. and she didn't really wa nt her problems. and she didn't really want us to know. but of course we had to know because we had to be pa rt
had to know because we had to be part of trying to help her. but it is very difficult, i think, to do anything around something which is such an integral part of life, which is eating. so if someone is addicted to alcohol, you can put them in rehab, and you can remove the alcohol from the situation. when it is an eating disorder, you can't remove someone from food. it is impossible. they have to eat. so it is very difficult obsession to do something concrete about. james, do you know why there might be a link between autism and anorexia? there are a few possible reasons, but really we need more research, and to look at the possible reasons, they could be biological. it could be that there is a biological basis of autism and anorexia, which is shared, which could explain that. we also other people who are autistic experience quite a lot of adverse experiences, difficult events, which could lead to anorexia. and then
also we know that there are things about autism which are in common with things and anorexia, so a focus on routine, for example, specific sensory interests. and those are the sorts of things which can easily lead to things like anorexia. but we really need to know more about what the risks are and why anorexia comes along without his. you want the guidelines which inform the best clinical practice in the nhs to be altered so that they include a reference on autism in the section on eating disorders. why, and what difference you think that would make? i think we need better recognition of autism in people who have eating disorders. unfortunately, we know that people who are autistic experience even more adverse outcomes than people whojust more adverse outcomes than people who just have an eating more adverse outcomes than people whojust have an eating disorder. we know that treatment isn't optimised for them and if we knew that someone was artistic we could adapt services so was artistic we could adapt services so that they are more autism
enabling and friendly, so ensuring that things are communicated more clearly, including that people plasma sensory needs are met and things are predictable and easy for people. and i think it really serves everyone if you know about the autism diagnosis. would you agree with that, doctor andrea? yes. there are with that, doctor andrea? yes. there a re two with that, doctor andrea? yes. there are two issues, really. i am speaking from a clinical perspective. some patients come to us perspective. some patients come to us with a diagnosis of autism already, but there is also a cohort to come to us and who don't have a diagnosis, or maybe have a different diagnosis, or maybe have a different diagnosis or have been misdiagnosed, and that is a big issue, really, so the first thing we need to establishes whether or not the person is on the autistic spectrum. what do you do different your clinic for women with autism and anorexia? well, first of all, i think it is really important to say that a
person with autism and an eating disorder will be very different. everybody has unique needs, so the first thing that we need to do is to get a very good understanding of their individual difficulties, and then you can tailor the treatment to then you can tailor the treatment to the individual person. and do you agree that the nhs, sorry that the nice guidelines, should include this reference to autism in the section on eating disorders? would that help? i think so. we are very aware of autism and have a great interest in helping people, but i don't think thatis in helping people, but i don't think that is necessarily a universal thing, so when you look at the nice guidelines, they do actually refer to other comorbidities that may actually coexist with anorexia and other eating disorders, but they don't mention autism. i think is having that mention will at least make people be more aware and maybe
think about it a bit more. nice say there is not enough evidence, james, to yet do that. what you say to that? well, i think when you look at the experience of research people working in the field, experts, as many as one in five had been found in studies to have comorbidities. there is a need to adapt services and there is a need for nice to insert these regulations because if we don't do that we are not going to improve the outcomes and they are some of the most disenfranchised people in society. let me read the messages. sharon says, my daughter has autism and has always had eating problems, for dividing duty sensory issues. tennis is my daughter was diagnosed with autism at six she is now 18. treatment helped but he was rejected by been told that sessions that
autism is not an eating disorder. everything seemed to be compartmentalised. i would say yes treatment needs to be autism specific. daniel treat tweets ever since my huge weight loss i am obsessed with counting calories and probably don't eat as much as i should. my gp is to tell me to eat much lesser now he tells me to eat much lesser now he tells me to eat much more. becky says it has to be acted on. anorexia has been the ha rd est acted on. anorexia has been the hardest battle for my family with respect to these conditions. the road to recovery is long, slow, and unrelated. it is considered by some to bea unrelated. it is considered by some to be a condition of vanity. i can assure you , to be a condition of vanity. i can assure you, it isn't. elizabeth ta kes assure you, it isn't. elizabeth takes it, after trying for 20 years to get my doctor diagnosed with autism, she had it confirmed a fortnight ago. whatever issues is not liking food but luckily she understands that she must eat, but i have to make sure that she does. thank you all of you very much. thanks, andrea, for joining thank you all of you very much. thanks, andrea, forjoining us in york as well. thank you. if you've been affected by anything we've been discsusing
this morning and would like more information or help, please visit: bbc.co.uk/actionline. still to come — a warning that student loan statements are dangerous and misleading — we'll be speaking to the founder of money saving expert, martin lewis, who thinks its time to overhaul the way student loans are set out. and a shooting in wallasey defends its use of an image of shamima begum as a target practice. harry on email — the use of an image of shamima begum by a cheshire shooting range is disgusting. whatever she has or hasn't done — and i do not for one moment condone her actions — using her image can only be described as a cheap using her image can only be on twitter — childish and distasteful but in a free society i guess they can shoot at whatever targets they please. i can't see how it's any different from the picture of thatcher i had on my dartboard as a kid. david on twitter — she is a representative
of what drones are made for. do it. carolyn on twitter — do shooting ranges routinely use current public figures for target practice? ? surely not. that is just sick and dangerous. do get in touch with us throughout the morning — use the hashtag victoria live. if you text, you ll be charged at the standard network rate. the bbc and itv have joined together to create their own streaming service to rival netflix. it's called britbox. the bbc‘s director general tony hall says they hope to launch it later this year. britbox is not intended to replace the bbc‘s iplayer or the itv hub and is expected to have box sets from the bbc and itv archives with some new commissions. it's expected that the new service could cost around £5 a month. itv say they will spend £25 million on the product this year. currently, 500,000 people subscribe to britbox in north america, launched by bbc and itv
two years ago. with me now is scott bryan ? co—host of the must watch podcast on bbc sounds and tv commentator. how are you, scott? i'm good. what you think of this idea? it is interesting because there has been plans pretty much for ten years to have this sort of idea but 0fcom the regulator blocked it, primarily because they felt that it was anti—competitive. but within that time we have had a massive sort of rise of netflix and online streaming services that are taking bbc content. and i think that probably bbc and itv are thinking that we can get more money if we do it ourselves. and if you look at the bodyguard which rated so willingly on the bbc last year, that has gone to netflix, and how many people are watching it around the world? the bbc must be thinking, hang on a minute. it is a weird thing, netflix, because we don't how successful their shows are when they
are on netflix, but you have had the success of britbox, which has been used in north america, but i think theissues used in north america, but i think the issues that at the end of the day you are spending £7 for netflix, you are spending £7 for now tv, i think that it has to be a price limit on what people can be paying for a lot of the services, and a lot of these shows that the bbc and itv are hoping to be on the service, you can already pretty much what it is click to any channel during the day are going to dave or uktv. what kind of stuff will be on their western mark will it be last summer's love island series? it could be. those are shows that are already on netflix. i think a lot of it will be filling the gaps of those shows when you are going through 20 find something to watch thatjust don't seem to be anywhere. and i think the idea of having it all in one place, the bbc at the same time are 20 have a consultation about having their shows available on iplayer up to a year. and then passed that point, i think the idea is that you just go to britbox to find it if you are not
able to catch it first time round. people are saying to me, i already subscribe to amazon prime, netflix, skye, i will not be able to afford to do another one. a lot of people are saying, at the bbc for real? scrapping the free tv licence for the over 75 is a now creating this to show old bbc programmes? if they wa nt to to show old bbc programmes? if they want to go commercial, surely they are obliged to scrap the licence fee. had they but about saving money by removing overpaid presenters? is licensed the money being used to finance this commercial venture? if so, how do theyjustify that? at finance this commercial venture? if so, how do they justify that? at the same time, the bbc has already had commercial outlet. for years, you we re commercial outlet. for years, you were able to get dvds or merchandise relating to their shows. this is nothing new about them having a commercial endeavour. i think at the same time, the bbc is a busy thinking about the gaps they have in theirfunding and finding a way to reuse their content in this way is possibly a good idea for them. i
think the issue is that consumers are going to be paying more and more because at the moment you are able to watch all of the david attenborough stuff on netflix. if britbox become successful, i think they will stop getting back to netflix, which means consumers will have to pay essentially more for same programmes. 0ne listener says this is doomed to fail. who would want to pay for them? lots fail. who would want to pay for them ? lots of fail. who would want to pay for them? lots of repeats on terrestrial channels anyway. it is about time the tv licence was abolished, there isa the tv licence was abolished, there is a theme here as you may have noticed! he says, i have said it is a man, but i'm making an assumption. they go on to say i don't understand why we have to pay for things we don't really want. you don't have to subscribe, that's the point! that is the point! britbox has been successful in north america because of the name. it is a good name. it is. a lot of fans of british soap.
.. they is. a lot of fans of british soap. they said there will be one comprehensive home where anyone in britain can get all of our library content britain can get all of our library co nte nt of britain can get all of our library content of itv and bbc library in one place and watch it anytime anywhere. thank you very much. still to come: "too apologetic over anti—semitism" — labour mps criticise their colleague chris williamson for claiming the party had done more than any other to tackle anti—semitism. we'll speak to a mother who says that the so called "momo challenge" — a creepy image of a doll targeting children online — was sent to her daugher by other teenagers. when you get a statement for your outstanding student loan, do you find it easy to understand? the financial advice company money saving expert and a body representing a top universities called the russell group think that the way the current statement is laid out misleads graduates and causes unnecessary worry.
the statement details your outstanding "debt" and the growing interest on it, which can be thousands of pounds. and can encourage some people to try and pay it back as soon as possible. now, money saving expert and the russell group want to tear it says opening debit balance, total loa ns it says opening debit balance, total loans borrowed, opening debit balance, my gosh, £59,000 it says! anyway, you can read it for yourself. now, money saving expert and the russell group want to tear up this style of statement and trial a new one, which focuses on projected monthly repayments instead, helping you understand how much you might pay before your debt is finally wiped after 30 years. they want your feedback on the new design. martin lewis isjoining us exclusively to launch this new idea. i should say we don't do financial advice, we are a consumer help website. did i use the word advice? big data term for independent
financial advice. i did not mean to use that word advice, we have talked about this before and you have said this. i apologise. also with us — mimi tangney, a graduate who is paying back her tuition fees each month, caitlin marshall, a second year uni student and mum who wants to start paying off all her tuition fees as soon as possible and sharon mehari, hoping to take up a place at uni in october, who doesn't think anyone understands the loan system and gemma goodman, a graduate who borrowed £27,000 for maintenace and tuition fees and is making payments every month. welcome all of you. let's set out the student loan system festival. when you get a statement, currently gets tells you the debt and interest. i would say it is misleading and dangerous. it is very scary when people c £1000 interest added over a year and 59,000. —— back when people see. people say i'm an apologist, but we frame it wrong, it works for most people more like
an increase in tax compared to debt. that is not saying it is cheap, it isn't cheap but you have to look at it at isn't cheap but you have to look at itata isn't cheap but you have to look at it at a different way. we have some guinea pigs here. let's take this out, i will be doing a bit of maths with you. let's imagine, the key thing to remember is that you reap a 996 thing to remember is that you reap a 9% everything you earn about £25,000. if you earn £30,000 per year, you are paying 9% of the 5000, which is 450, that's the rule. i've given you an answer. if your outstanding debt is £30,000, and you earn £30,000 a year, how much do you repay? 450. if your outstanding debt was £80,000, how what would you repay? 450. if they put tuition fees up repay? 450. if they put tuition fees up to £1 million a year and you owe £3 million, how much would you repay a year? £450. the debt and the interest don't affect how much you
repay per year, all they affect is whether or not you will clear the debt within the 30 years within the debt within the 30 years within the debt wipes. the higher the debt, the less likely you are to clear it, the higher the interest, the less likely you are to clear it. the current stature, 83% of current graduates on the plan two system, england and welsh students who started since 2012 will not repay in full within the 30 years. effectively, they have a9% the 30 years. effectively, they have a 9% increase in their income tax above £25,000. the best example i can give you as a woman who got in touch with me who was a lower earner, under the threshold such, she had been packed by the interest she had been packed by the interest she got an inheritance of ten grand and used it to try to overpay her student loan reducing it from say 50 grand to 40 grand and it will never reduce what she pays in future, so she literally flushed that down the toilet. that is why they are dangerous. that is why we have redesigned it. i have showed you before, let me know what you think. this focuses on what the debt and
interest is. look at that page. let me get your reaction. you are a single mum, student right now. do you worry about the debt that you have? yeah, i worry quite a lot, considering i have a little one. i don't want to leave university with my degree and worry about paying it back and also providing my daughter with all the things she needs. but your view is that you want to pay it back as soon as possible. so i can avoid the interest fees. whatjob are you likely to do after you leave professionally? child psychologist, hopefully. child psychologist, decent profession but not hugely high earning. a lot of this is naval gazing into the future but the likelihood is, in real terms, if you just pay back the 9%, you will repay far less than the debt figure is showing you. looking at the stats, someone on £35,000 salary a few yea rs someone on £35,000 salary a few
years out of university and there are increasing more than inflation, their salary, the real terms, they would repay £22,000. if you try to clear the loan quickly you will be shelling out more money in real terms than you would anyway. does that make sense? what you have to think about, your position, if you are going into the city to earn £150,000 a year, we are having a different conversation, some in your position should say, most people can earn without paying tax up to £11,500 per year, up earn without paying tax up to £11,500 peryear, up to earn without paying tax up to £11,500 per year, up to £25,000, eve ryo ne £11,500 per year, up to £25,000, everyone pays 20% tax, because you area everyone pays 20% tax, because you are a graduate, but £25,000, you will pay 29% and nongraduates pay 20%. above £45,000, you will pay 49% tax on non—graduates pay 40% tax, you will pay more tax for 30 years, thatis you will pay more tax for 30 years, that is what you will do. if i could, i would that is what you will do. if i could, iwould rip that is what you will do. if i could, i would rip up your student loa n could, i would rip up your student loan statement, but i can't because you need to feed back. don't look at
it and say, i will pay 9% extra tax because i am a graduate. 0verpaying it is nonsense, the system doesn't work like that. gemma, do you take that advice, rip up your statement? yeah. it's confusing. last year, i had three statements and each statement had something different on it. in an amount. it hasn't given me any extra information. but do you feel a burden or are you changing the way you view it? i've been thinking about it as a tax would help rather than thinking about it asa help rather than thinking about it as a repayment. then you accept that i went to uni and that is a tax i pay for going to uni. i went to uni and that is a tax i pay for going to unilj i went to uni and that is a tax i pay for going to uni. i had campaigned for years that we need to rename it, stop calling it a student loan. it isn't a tax, there are reasons, but what they call our system in other countries is a graduate contribution system. if you are financially successful off the back of going to university, you are expected to contribute towards the
cost of your education. if you are not financially accept successful, you are not supposed to repay it back. people get worried that they haven't repaid a debt but if i called it a graduate contribution system, you would start to reframe it. this is all tony blair's fault. many people say that about lots of things but this is. he was scared to introduce a tax because he didn't wa nt to introduce a tax because he didn't want to be seen as a labour party person who introduce new taxes. everybody knows this system is far closer to a tax than a loan, he used the language of debt at the problem with that is now for over 20 years we have educated our youth into what we have educated our youth into what we call a debt even though it isn't a debt and never educated them about borrowing. we have given people permission to get other types of loa ns permission to get other types of loans which are far more dangerous and we have a much more debt in huge society because we misnamed this thing in the first place, you have a graduate contribution system. i hope it won't cost you a shed load, it will mean you are financially successful —— but i hope it will
cost you. do you regard it as a debt? i don't, now, but! cost you. do you regard it as a debt? i don't, now, but i did and it isjust over 30,000. how do you view paying over that? you are not earning anything, you are doing a masters at the moment. no. i view it like you say, contribution towards learning, the learning that i have got as a result and then the job i will get as a result of it. to view it as will get as a result of it. to view itasa will get as a result of it. to view it as a debt psychologically is very worrying. it stops people from wanting to go to university. you didn't take out the full maintenance loan, there is the tuition fee loan and a maintenance loan for your living costs but you didn't take out the full amount of the maintenance loa n the full amount of the maintenance loan because you were thinking about paying it and worrying about it and now you wish you did? like you say it is £450, whether you have £30,000 debt, 40, 50, whatever it is. they can maintenance loan out would have
made a lot more sense as well because it would have helped. quite right. the biggest problem that real students, not people talking politically about this is living costs at university. we have this hidden parental contribution system where the amount of living is means tested but you are old enough to marry, joined the army and died for our country but not counted as an independent adult under student finance. parental contribution reduces your maintenance loan, people can't afford to live at university. i would opt to get more what we call now a debt, i would like bigger debt because if i were to put money in the system i would give more money for maintenance and rename it a graduate contribution system. this has been a disgusting political football that they have focused on the politics of the practical financial reality and we have misnamed it, we mis—framed it and miss communicated it to a number of generations. including sharon. you are at sixth form and you say that you didn't particularly understand it and most of your
fellow students don't either. for some people university just fellow students don't either. for some people universityjust looks like a trap because of what you were talking about, the way it has been labelled and the language of debt thatis labelled and the language of debt that is being used. why should i go and pay this and become trapped financially in the future. and i can't pay back? 93% of people that go to state schools, everyone is on a level playing field where no one has to think about their financial consequences of has to think about their financial consequences of the education and all of a sudden you are thrown into this deep end where you are not really sure how you're supposed to live, how you're supposed to maintain your education and also be financially stable. thinking about paying off a debt isn't something you even consider at our age. the thought of howl you even consider at our age. the thought of how i will live through this and a lot of my friends are having to set back their dreams... universities they want to attend, they feel like they can't because of they feel like they can't because of the maintenance fees. they say i might as well live at home, why
should i become a burden to my family who perhaps can't afford to help me in times of need? that's what we are doing. we should have a meritocracy of education where you can go to their best university and course for you. but the maintenance loa n course for you. but the maintenance loan and lack of maintenance loan means that people who come from less affluent background rows are being inhibited on their choice of university. there is a big financial problem, where rich people get a better choice. it's not about the tuition fees primarily, it is far more about the maintenance situation. we talked in the green room. if it's right for you, then go to university, is not right for everyone. you will pay back quite a lot of money i hope if you become a lawyer because you will have a well earning career. people get this dialogue wrong. we talk about looking after poor people, nice generic term, poor people, but who do we want to look after? someone who comes from a low income family and goes and get a really good job
and goes and get a really good job and becomes a high—flying city lawyer and in 200 grand a year? are they poor? 0r lawyer and in 200 grand a year? are they poor? or a middle—class background person who becomes a social worker on a relatively low income? we confuse this debate by not thinking. i want to make sure that you can go to university, have all the funds available to you and it's there so that you can do it without putting a burden on your family. prioritise that. if you become a high earner and we pay back a lot of money because university education has put you in a position you wouldn't otherwise have been, it is for politicians to decide where we spread the button but it doesn't worry me. this is an e-mail that some people will agree with this. student debt should not be called anything but debt, you are knocked down before you even start your working life. education should be free. universities are seeing stu d e nts free. universities are seeing students as a paycheck. who pays for education? education isn't free, people need paying. should it be the taxpayer or the individual?
currently the burden is shared. i don't engage in that conversation, thatis don't engage in that conversation, that is for politicians. maybe it should be paid for by the taxpayer and everybody would pay for the individuals who gain from their education, that is political debate. they should not work as a debt. by framing it as a debt, which people do because they want to politically knock the system which is say, call ita knock the system which is say, call it a debt and then we can say how bad the system is, that is political. that puts off people from underprivileged backgrounds who tend to be more risk averse from going to university when they can't afford to do so. i'm happy to sacrifice the political debate for the reality of underprivileged kids making sure they know you can go to university, you can thrive, you can succeed. that is political football language for me. have the political debate but don't let it perverted what we tell our young people. thank you very much everyone.
0ne ofjeremy corbyn's allies has been filmed saying that the labour party has been "too apologetic" over anti—semitism. chris williamson told activists labour was being "demonised as a racist, bigoted party". in the last few minutes, labour has issued a statement apologising, called his comments "deeply offensive and inappropiate", and asked mr williamson to withdraw his remarks. let's get the latest from norman smith, our political guru. interesting because chris williamson isa interesting because chris williamson is a close ally ofjeremy corbyn yet this statement apologising on behalf of him. chris williamson is a spiky and controversial left—wing supporter of mr corbin you might say, not someone shy of expressing his opinions. he was already in trouble over another alleged anti—semitic incident, after he booked a room in the house of commons to show this film, the way anti—semitism has been pursued in the labour party. . now he has
compounded that after he was filmed addressing a momentum rally, which he basically sought to downplay the claims of anti—semitism, suggesting the party had been too tolerant of allegations, too defensive and apologetic and he got a big round of applause. now, that has a menu called for him to be disciplined. just have a look at the video —— make that has renewed calls for him. you can form your own view. the has party that has done more to stand up to racism is now being demonised as a racist, bigoted party! i've got to say that i think our party's response has been partly responsible for that. because, in my opinion, we've backed off far too much, we have given too much ground, we've been too apologetic. applause and we've done more to actually address the scourge of anti—semitism
than any other political party. any other political party. that was from the yorkshire post to put it up on twitter. he has been asked to apologise and withdraw his remarks but you get the sense that labour is struggling to put an end to this ongoing rumble of allegations over anti—semitism. so much so thatjeremy corbyn announced he was bringing in one of tony blair's old pals, charlie faulkner to oversee and get a grip on the anti—semitism allegations. you have the sense this is doing profound damage to the party. it was the reason why some of those labour mps quit the party last week citing the pa rty‘s quit the party last week citing the party's inability to deal with it.
tom watson said the general secretary who had been tasked to get a grip on it and put in place a robust procedure for dealing with it. however hard, the party tries to put it to bed, itjust keeps rumbling on. a quick question on brexit, we can't not mention it, is it clear that no deal is on the table. i hope so. it is still on the table. i hope so. it is still on the table but may be shunted down the line a bit. all we have now is a prospect of a delay of around two to three months. that seems a racing certainty. if mrs may's deal goes down next month as odds on it probably will, mps will get a vote on leaving without a deal. that is unlikely to get through, almost by default we will move to the delay.
but at the end of the delay we are still facing a cliff edge and leaving without any agreement. thank you. a shooting range on merseyside is using an image of shamima begum as a target, and has defended the practice and telling this programme it provides "light—hearted fun" for its customers. here's one image from the range showing begum's face after it's been shot at. the ultimate airsoft range, says it received a record number of requests from customers to practise shooting at the face of the 19—year—old british woman who ran away to join is. 0ur reporter clairejones is here with the exclusive story. we can reveal this morning that the shooting range based in wallasey near liverpool called the ultimate ai rsoft near liverpool called the ultimate airsoft range limited has been using images of shamima begum for people to use as a target. we've been past
these pictures by somebody who has been to the site and was concerned. we took a closer look at these images and we could see there were numerous bullet holes across the image. we counted up to 100 holes. 0n image. we counted up to 100 holes. on one image? on one image of shamima begum. they have been fired at using repurposed bullets. we started looking closer at their website, to see some context and it turns out there are numerous high profile, well known people who are also being used as targets. donald trump, margaret thatcher, a summer bin laden, even justin trump, margaret thatcher, a summer bin laden, evenjustin bieber. around on social media and on the twitter page of the ultimate —— ultimate airsoft range we saw a video that had been posted titled hot off the press. it is a video of a printout with images of shamima begum, quite a lot of pictures. there are hashtags on the post
saying target, made your choice, no remorse. it's worth noting that children as young as six years old can go to the site. we started looking at other shooting ranges across the country and we can see it seems to be more common to use the circular bull's—eye target rather than identifiable images. this morning we have spoken to the labour mp in the area, angela eagle and she told us she thinks it's wrong to have real people in targets, because they could be misinterpreted. she is not in favour of having living people as targets, whether it's trump or anyone else because it sends the wrong message especially for six—year—olds. she said she is disapproving of people who exist. and the shooting range itself? ultimate airsoft range said that
targets provide some fantastic reactions and conversations and allow people to have some light—hearted fun and bring out the inner child in us all. they say that the targets don't necessarily always reflect a personal opinions. and they certainly don't want to condone terrorism and said after watching the footage of shamima begum being interviewed, they said the lack of remorse and empathy that she had shown, they then decided to go ahead and listen to their customers and use those images as targets. a lot of reaction on social media since we posted this story just of reaction on social media since we posted this storyjust before 10am. 0ne posted this storyjust before 10am. one person says, this is not acceptable, we may not like a life choices but she is a mother and she needs help. michael says this is brilliant and we should make rolls of toilet paper with her picture on it. another person says if i were a pa rent it. another person says if i were a parent who lost their young daughter in the consett bombing in the name of is and sadly supported by shamima begum i would probably feel some satisfaction in this but not for me.
it raises the question of her personal safety should she ever returned to the uk. stewart says we buy in effigies of guy forks and politicians every 5th of november so i can't see an issue with using this image. another person says monsters don't need to be hugged, they need to be punished for their bad choices, monsters like this. thank you. the charity kidscape has told this programme that the so—called momo challenge — in which a creepy image of a doll targets children online — is infiltrating seemingly harmless videos aimed at children online. the challenge, which it's believed was started by hackers, targets people on whatsapp and on youtube and gaming platforms and encourages users to do various dares — including self harm. with us in the studio is lauren seager—smith the ceo of the anti—bullying charity kidscape. in belfast is detective sergeant elaine mccormill from
the northern ireland police service, and amanda, whose15—year—old daughter was sent the momo challenge on monday. she thinks it was sent by other teenagers. what effect did it have on her, amanda? obviously she was shaken up. the picture is enough to scare her. she went straight to the teacher, though, she didn't reply to any of the messages. shejust went though, she didn't reply to any of the messages. she just went to the teacher and he contacted the place. did she... we've got pictures of what she was sent. let's have a look. there the scary image and the wording says, let's have a look, hey there, want to play des? —— play dares. did it suggest a dare to your daughter, amanda? no, because at that time, they had put her name into it and the school that she was going to. they knew that and by
that, she was shocked, so she told the teacher. she didn't reply. as i say, the teacher was very quick and we re say, the teacher was very quick and were on the police. elaine, you have put out a statement about this, how disturbing do you think it is?|j think disturbing do you think it is?” think it's very concerning for parents and children. i thought it was very important we shared some information about potential risks with parents and guardians to empowerthem to with parents and guardians to empower them to speak with their children to avoid taking part in any challenge sent to them. no one, what do you think? it's a really shocking and upset them. -- lauren, what do you think. like our parent here it is disturbing. you want to keep your children safe and you don't imagine there are these horrors out there. i understand the level of concern. at first, then, people thought it was a hoax, what do you think now —— at
first, elaine. we don't have reports of any sinister contact within our organisation. we are aware of reports within the uk mainland and thatis reports within the uk mainland and that is concerning. they are very real. parents are contacting police for advice. like amanda, whose daughter has received this. what concerns do you have about this being copied and spread wider? what i'm really pleased to hear is that in this situation, your daughter talked to the teachers and let them know what is happening, which is really encouraging. i'm really pleased. there is a strong message that if you see something that doesn't seem right, talk to your parents and teachers because, i'm sorry to say, now this has got out there as a bit of a trend, we will get copycat behaviour. people will jump get copycat behaviour. people will jump on this and think it is a good laugh to scare children, let's keep doing this. we will see more of it. parents, talk to your children,
don't let young children stay on what's app or social networks without really close supervision. people will do these things out there. but stay calm and give them advice. you very much. we appreciate your time today. thanks for your company today. back tomorrow at 10am. bbc newsroom live is coming up next. have a very good day. good morning. today will be the last day of the warm sunshine stop already, outside, blue skies and that's the in shropshire. replicated across many parts of the uk at the moment. a bit of cloud moving around the irish sea coasts and the isle of
man, northern ireland as well. for many of us, dry, sunny and it will be warm again, maximum temperature is widely up to about 14—18 celsius and in the capital it could be 19 may be 20 degrees, just a bit below yesterday with 21.2 degrees in london. 0ver tonight, we will see some cloud move into northern and western areas, that is the sign of changes as we go into thursday. temperatures 4—6. further east, chilly, two celsius but thursday, a significant change compared to the last few days, lots more cloud, rain for england and wales and around 13 degrees, goodbye.
you're watching bbc newsroom live, it's11am and these are the main stories this morning: pakistan says it has shot down two indian aircraft over kashmir, and captured their pilots, in a major escalation of the kashmir conflict. labour calls on one of its mps, chris williamson, to apologise after he said the party 5 been too apologetic over anti—semitism. mps will have their say on the next steps for brexit later waving the flag of friendship donald trump meets the vietnamese prime minister, before meeting kimjong un. mps will have their say on the next steps for brexit later as theresa may urges them to "do their duty". the bbc and itv announce plans to launch a joint streaming service, called britbox, to compete with netflix and amazon marks and spencer announces a joint deal with 0cado, giving m&s a food delivery service for the first time.
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