this is bbc news. the headlines: in britain, mps have again rejected government efforts to call a snap general election. it's the sixth defeat for the prime minister, borisjohnson, in little over a week. parliament has now been suspended until mid october. authorities in the bahamas have defended their response to hurricane dorian. aid still hasn't reached tens of thousands in the worst—hit area. people who've remained in marsh harbour in the abaco islands say there hasn't even been a concerted attempt to recover bodies. president trump says us talks with the afghan taliban are ‘dead'. the decision to scrap negotiations came in response to last week's militant attack that killed twelve people, including an american soldier. the taliban said americans will "lose the most" for cancelling. those other headlines. —— are the
headlines. coming up at five is sally bundock. now on bbc news — it's hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk. i'm at stephen sackur. indonesia has big ambitions to bea sackur. indonesia has big ambitions to be a 21st—century regional superpower. it has the right kind of assets in terms of population, natural resources, and strategic position, but there are clouds on the horizon. not least in west papua, the vast territory incorporated into indonesia at the end of dutch colonial rule. five decades jakarta has suppressed a papuan independence movement stop in recent months tensions have flared into violence. my guest is benny wenda, exiled leader of the west papuan liberation movement. can he
ta ke papuan liberation movement. can he take on jakarta and papuan liberation movement. can he take onjakarta and when? benny wenda, welcome to hardtalk. thank you for having me. last month we saw violent clashes between indonesian security personnel and civilians in west papua. there were a number of deaths, some very serious clashes. now the indonesian say the situation is now calm and order has been restored stop you are in co nsta nt order has been restored stop you are in constant contact with west papua, what did you believe is going on?
this situation escalated from ja ka rta this situation escalated from jakarta to west papua because of, you know, the indonesian police and military and local civilians came to west papua student dormitories and accused them of the racist word, monkey, dog, and pig. that spark escalated across indonesia, across west papua. the papuans, if you call us west papua. the papuans, if you call us monkey, then go home, we want to ask an independent referendum. then peacefully start with, peacefully across west papua, all of west papua, then the indonesian response is killing six people. that is the start of killing by the indonesian military. it is a complicated story, though. you have said that the spark
that lit the flames of violence was racism directed towards young papuan stu d e nts racism directed towards young papuan students studying in an indonesian college. the indonesian authorities points to other sparks and they go back to last december when, as i understand, separatist millita nts armed, murdered a group of workers construct being a new road in west papua. and those were separatist, presumably allies of your own. this is not new for west papua. indonesia a lwa ys is not new for west papua. indonesia always creates the violence. one example, back in 2002, the indonesian military intelligence, one of the american citizens is killed near the freeport mine and then blamed on west papuan
separatists. the pattern is the same. hang on, it is important to get down to basic seal. there are many allegations that armed militants working as papuan separatists, and you of the exiled leader of the main umbrella of the separatist organisation, they have conducted operations and they are deemed to have been responsible for the murder of those construction workers last december. yes or no? until today... as soon as that happened i've already made a statement. this is unacceptable and this is propaganda done by indonesia, because... it is no good just describing it as propaganda. do you accept that some papuan separatists are not only armed but are using those arms to kill other
indonesians, particular those, for example, working on the big instruction project inside papua? i've already stated that those people, at a human level, condemn what happened. this is the history of what is happening now. under my leadership we always maintain peacefully, come out on the street, demonstrating, and of the violence, of colonialism. what happened now, indonesia came illegally to our country. since then indonesia, 500,000 men, women, children have been killed. up to now. indonesia brought the violence. we want to live peacefully. this is important to go through step—by—step. let me stop you. are you claiming, think you are claiming, half a million of fellow west pa pua ns you are claiming, half a million of fellow west papuans have been killed by the indonesian government, the security forces, since jakarta took
responsibility for west papua in the 19605. responsibility for west papua in the 1960s. yes. responsibility for west papua in the 19605. yes. 1963. responsibility for west papua in the 1960s. yes. 1963. where is your evidence for that figure of half a million dead? we have a number of evidence coming out. amnesty international also investigated. half a million were killed. that is why i also say to the indonesian government, if you claim there is no genocide, why do they not allow journalists? amnesty international bands, the international peace brigade, even the bbc. that's why indonesia gets away with impunity. so if you are alleging, and it is only an allegation, and international journalists and human rights workers find a veritable to work in west papua, if you are
alleging, your word, a genocide, are you also saying that you believe armed struggle is entirely legitimate? is that your position today? we never use the armed struggle. we always maintain peacefully. because you cannot win the west papua is a militarised zone. when we use the armed struggle, . .. zone. when we use the armed struggle,... under zone. when we use the armed struggle, . .. under my leadership zone. when we use the armed struggle,... under my leadership by came up peacefully. since 2000 we had a congress, 2000, they came out peacefully and engaged with jakarta to solve the west papua issue through the international mission. you claim to be the unified leader of the liberation movement for west papua, but it pattern isn't true. the other long—standing separatist organisation doesn't recognise, it seems to me, your leadership. the
0pm leader said recently that his organisation and its armed wing rejects and deny the claims and political statements made about the merger by you. he doesn't accept your authority. and it is clear that they continue their armed struggle. this is just they continue their armed struggle. this isjust a number of people, an individual claim. in 50 years we never became united. the last five yea rs never became united. the last five years supported by the vanuatu government, the first time in our history, we became united. we have three political factions... history, we became united. we have three political factions. .. the fact is, you are not united, one of the key factions that you claim to represent says you do not represent them. they are part of the liberation movement. 0pm is the name of the organisation. every west papua and is 0pm. now the political
organisation we are united under the united liberation forced by the chair of the united liberation. let us chair of the united liberation. let us talk with the promotions here. it is important for people to understand where you come from. obviously you were born in west papua. in quite a remote place, believe, but your family suffered a great deal as the indonesian military forces moved in. there was a lot of violence. and your family suffered from some of that. you, yourself, were educated in a school which was largely indonesian. and they know you claim you suffered serial racist incidents at school. you then, as a young man, became an activist against indonesian authority. they accuse you of leading a campaign of arson and violence. they put you on trial. were you a young millitants committed to violence? y i have to
fight this injustice happening in west papua, because i'm myself became a witness. aya grew up, had five years, my auntie was raped in front of my eyes, my mother was beaten up. they could not do anything as a young boy. at the time they went to school, i started, people were talking about discrimination. i'm myself have faced discrimination in this school, evenin faced discrimination in this school, even in the campus. that is why when a graduate... indonesia educated me to understand the struggle. they liberated themselves from the dots. what they are doing towards west papua is colonist —— dutch. it is direct colonialism. that is why they look at west papua differently. the discrimination, the racism, i don't wa nt discrimination, the racism, i don't want that happening in the next generation. i want two wounded. that is why when a graduate of political
science eight came out to lead peacefully on the street, 2000. that a nswer peacefully on the street, 2000. that answer was very telling in many ways. an indian moving. but you did not answer my question. were you was young man and are you today actually committed to violence because, according to your own version of events, so much violence has been perpetrated against your people that you seem perpetrated against your people that you seem to believe violence has to be part of your solution. you seem to believe violence has to be part of your solutionlj committed, be part of your solution.” committed, since 2000, when i became a leader, i declared the peaceful way was the only weapon we have. because 1970, 1960, iam not denying, they defend themselves. it is like a home guard. someone came to beat you up or kill you or beach 01’ to beat you up or kill you or beach or woman 01’ your to beat you up or kill you or beach or woman or your daughter has been raped in front of you, you can't let that happen. they have to defend. also rape. but that is already, the
revolutionary error is already ended. now we want to democratically transition for west papua. we will get your political proposals in just a moment. your description that all of the violence is in the past is not shared by the indonesian government. jakarta's co—ordinating minister for government. jakarta's co—ordinating ministerfor political, legal, and security affairs said just the other day that "i believe benny wenda took pa rt day that "i believe benny wenda took part in the violent conspiracy that indonesians believe they saw last month and 70 young people in different towns across west papua attacked the security forces." are you today conspiring against the indonesian security forces? so now my question, who was this start, the proper core in surabaya —— provoking
in. i like simple answer to simple questions. are you actively conspiring with arms young people in your territory, west papua, today, to attack the indonesian security forces ? to attack the indonesian security forces? no, they have not advised my people to attack indonesian security forces. they maintain as peacefully as possible. that is why the united liberation, from the beginning, when iam from liberation, from the beginning, when i am from zero to maintain peacefully, call a referendum. indonesia don't like call a referendum because they feel that west papua is part of the territory. but indonesia knows that they illegally occupied our country and thatis illegally occupied our country and that is why the root problem, it is illegal. can you see where the indonesian authorities would be very suspicious of you. they charge you all those years ago when you are in your late 20s with arson and violence. you escaped before the trial could be completed. but even
today, looking at what you say, there is reason to suspect you. for example, there is a statement from you, again, very recently in the wa ke you, again, very recently in the wake of this violence. "politically and militarily we are united, the international community can see without doubt that we are ready to ta ke without doubt that we are ready to take over our country. indonesia cannot stigmatise us as separatists or criminals anymore, we are a legitimate, unified, military and political state in waiting." if i was and indonesian minister i would regard that is quite simply an invitation to your people to undertake an armed uprising. no, i called my people, because all those years indonesia has stigmatised those people. no, we are the legitimate — we are ready to engage with the world, engage with
indonesia, that's why you can't stigmatise — that error is finished. we wa nt stigmatise — that error is finished. we want to tell the world we are ready. so, because we are responsible... militarily, you said. no, militarily we are not engaged. militarily, politically, we are ready to show we are confident in — we wa nt ready to show we are confident in — we want the world to trust us. you can trust indonesia all those years, but now, no, just us because this is our territory. i am a leader of the independence movement for west papua and i'm ready to engage with the world and welcome any assistance to support our struggle for piece. that is our standing point. indonesian government sees you as potentially dangerous, anti— state, anti—government actors. they claim some associations with islamic state. are you aware about? 9596 of west papua is christian, we are not
enemies with anybody. my — against this is that indonesia's system opposed to my people. we believe in peace with ordinary people, particularly migrants coming in because we know those people are coming — looking for a better life. you say that you do want engagement with the international community and indeed with indonesia, the state, itself. let's talk about your commitment to engagement. the president of indonesia, joko widodo, isa man president of indonesia, joko widodo, is a man who has repeatedly visited west papua and talked about the importance he gives to developing west papua. he says we will continue to maintain the honour of all the
papuan people. he won 90% of the vote in west papua, he is unlike previous military leaders in indonesia, appearing to care. why don't you give him an olive branch? yes, many presidents visit west papua from time to time. building a bridge or a seven story building or development... but people you are killing. he was the development for? while the people are being killed, who can enjoy those developments? people in west papua and asking for development, they are asking a simple question. hold the referendum, we want peace and harmony in our own land, that is what they are asking. you raise an interesting dilemma there, what is more important to the papuan people? prosperity and development in your vast territory, or, independence and
your own political objectives? because it seems to me poverty is rife in west papua. we've seen malnutrition, we've seen disease killed children in a way that is a rare and the rest of the world. you need material development, and that is what the indonesian president is offering you. isn't that rather important? indonesia, look, and west papua is a very rich country on this planet. my people are — because they suffer because indonesian military operations take place in west papua. this is 50 years — 58 years, under their illegal occupation... sorry to interrupt, but if they are offering to build trans— territory highways, advanced expense, if they are asking you to open up the resource extraction industries, and they say much of the profit from that will be invested in west papua, others not
objectives you can share? no. why open the roads? they are cutting down the trees. west papua is a third — second largest rainforest in this planet. they build that road in order to bring the military, cutting down the trees, cutting down our forests a nd down the trees, cutting down our forests and mountain. the forests are sacred, and the mountains are sacred. now these logging and mining companies want to destroy our way of life, our environment. this is why sing with us the people of west papua are not asking for development, they are asking for a referendum on independence. so, to be clear, if you were to get your way and if there were to be a referendum, and you, as the figurehead of the movement for independence were to become the leader of an independent west papua, you are saying to your own people and to the world that you would hold all the economic development. the
gold mining, the road development, the mineral extraction, although it would be halted. the people, they may be free, but they might also be very, very poor. look, we want to settle with what we've got. but what we are asking for now, we want to run our own affairs. that is a simple question we are asking the indonesian government. because we have everything, but we want to share. west but you won't independence is very unique country —— the west papuan independence is very unique, we want to create a green state in the world. we don't wa nt to green state in the world. we don't want to destroy our forests and mountains because west papua is the heart of the planet, heart of the land of the world. also, this west papua, we want west papuan independence and offer our brothers
a ncestors independence and offer our brothers a ncesto rs a cross independence and offer our brothers ancestors across the pacific, who will be disadvantaged by climate change, offer them a place. there is no doubt of the natural riches in west papua. you talk about your brothers and sisters in the region, are you disappointed with the international lack of support, if we are honest, that you in west papua have received for your independence campaign? australia in particular has a close relationship with the indonesian government and doesn't seem indonesian government and doesn't seem interested in backing your claims for independence. but, look, australia is a big power in the pacific. one thing that you know — we in the pacific islands for a meeting into blue, we lobbied for 19 yea rs meeting into blue, we lobbied for 19 years but the first time west popular was adopted, 18 countries —— west papua, 18 countries —— a
meeting in tuvala. this is the 21st century. we are fighting colonialism in west papua. indonesia colonised west papua. we don't want to repeat the history and what happened in other parts of the world, north america and indigenous people around the world as well. i hear your passion, but do you think the world ca res or passion, but do you think the world cares or indeed cares enough?” think i world is already finding out —— ourworld. i have think i world is already finding out —— our world. i have travelled the world, educated the world to understand what is going on. they don't know that indonesia closed west papua to journalists for 58 yea rs. west papua to journalists for 58 years. they got away with impunity, but now because of internet and social media, people are finding
out. they closed the pacific, caribbean, european. you were forced to flee your homeland, west papua, in 2002 because you are facing women or charges. when do you believe you would be able to go home? when west papua's free i will go a free man. that is my mission. i'm forced to leave because i'm not guilty, but indonesia are trying to accuse me of false charges and they have tried to kill me three times in prison, but i managed to escape. many great leaders have been killed and assassinated in prison — poison. the world doesn't know what indonesia is doing in west papua. since i came
out and i brought that message in the united kingdom, from here i educate the world, understand about our struggle. do you think you will live long enough to go home?” believe within my life in west papua will be free because indonesia cannot stop us. benny wanda, thank you very much for being on the hardtalk. thank you. -- on hardtalk. hello. weather—wise, yesterday certainly wasn't the most shining of starts to the new week. it was cloudy, it was pretty wet for many of us, and also it felt on the chilly side. today, we flip the coin.
it's much drier, it should be much brighter, and consequently, it will also feel warmer. this area of low pressure is the area responsible for the wet weather yesterday. that's off into the continent. today, we have a little ridge of high pressure. we start off with quite a bit of cloud around, perhaps some patchy mist and fog. could be a problem through the morning rush—hour across the midlands, but that will lift, and there's a lot of sunshine to be had through the afternoon. however, you don't need to look too closely to observe there's quite a significant change approaching northern ireland come the end of the afternoon. this weather front is part of an area of low pressure that is actually ex—hurricane dorian. so it is nowhere near hurricane—strength as it makes its way to the uk, let's be clear about that. but it will be a very windy night. as that deep area of low pressure rolls across us, weather fronts will slide their way southwards. there will be some rain around, but mild into wednesday. through wednesday day, the centre of the low stays to the north of the uk. the isobars stay closely packed together.
much of the rain will sweep away south—eastwards. we should actually be left with quite a bit of sunshine by the time we get into the second half of the day, but the strong westerly wind will feed quite a few showers into western scotland. and the wind will be particularly gusty, so potentially even disruptive, as gusts could touch up to 40—115 mph for exposed areas to the north and west of the uk. but the temperatures already starting to look healthier than they did at the start of the week. we're into the low 20s in the south—east. wednesday into thursday, we get another little area of low pressure running across us. this is ex—tropical storm gabrielle. again, basicallyjust quite a deep area of low pressure. it will bring some windy weather perhaps to the south—west in western exposures for a time. the biggest difference, though, is the tropical area it pulls up to the south of it on thursday. so wet for northrthern ireland, wet for scotland, windy potentially, especially for the likes of wales and the south—west of england. but look how the temperatures get bolstered as we pull in the warm,
humid air from the south. that then sets us up for the remainder of the week and to take us into the weekend, with high pressure building from the south—west. we feed that warmer air north across the uk. we should settle the weather down quite nicely, as well. friday and on into the weekend, there should be a lot of dry weather around, some pleasant spells of sunshine, and a return as well of some warmer weather.
this is the briefing. i'm sally bundock. our top story: the ayes to the right, 293, the noes to the left, 46. britain's mps defy borisjohnson — again blocking his call for a snap general election. within hours, parliament was suspended — prompting an angry response. this parliament is accordingly prorogued. hopes for another trump—kim meeting. north korea says it's willing to take part in "comprehensive" talks on denuclearisation with the us. and two years after hundreds of thousands of rohingyas were driven out of myanmar, all traces of where they lived are being erased from the landscape.