tv Victoria Derbyshire BBC News October 30, 2019 10:00am-11:01am GMT
hello, it's wednesday, it's 10 o'clock, i'm victoria derbyshire. good morning. in the last few seconds, the first report into the grenfell tower disaster in which 72 people lost their lives has just been published. this morning, we will talk to families who escaped from the burning tower that night and to relatives of those who died. wow. we saw a lot. we saw a lot, man. we saw a lot with our own eyes. we saw friends, families... come on, honestly, it's all right, you don't have to say any more.
it's been a long time coming but it's the first step to the truth and i feel relieved, and it's the first step to the truth and ifeel relieved, and my it's the first step to the truth and i feel relieved, and my faith it's the first step to the truth and ifeel relieved, and my faith in it's the first step to the truth and i feel relieved, and my faith in the judge has been restored. we will hear more from mahad egal, this morning our guests will give us their reaction to this key finding, that more lives would have been savedif that more lives would have been saved if residents had been told to flee the burning building rather than to stay in their homes. we will hear from firefighters too later. this is what london fire chief dany cotton told the inquiry. i wouldn't change anything we did on the night. i think, without exception, my firefighters, my officers and my control staff performed in a fantastic way, given the incredible circumstances they were faced against. the inquiry has criticised the her for that response and it's also concluded the cladding on the tower meant it didn't comply with building safety regulations and was therefore illegal. could that lead to prosecution
of the local council, kensington and chelsea 7 and others. we're devoting our whole programme today to the grenfell report, and to remembering the victims. my mum and sister were poisoned by the smoke, they were burned, i had to listen to them suffer and i had to listen to them die. hello, welcome to the programme. good morning. we're live until ”am this morning. as we are each weekday. do get in touch in the usual ways. our whole programme this morning, we are going to talk about that really significant report from the first phase of the grenfell tower disaster public inquiry. we have people who escaped from the tao that night and we have relatives of those who didn't make it out that night and we
are going to bring you their reaction. before that, annita mcveigh has the news. thank you, victoria, and good morning. survivors and bereaved families of the grenfell tower fire have told this programme that senior officers in the london fire brigade ‘must stop hiding behind the bravery of their front—line fire fighters‘. the official report into the fire which killed 72 people hasjust been released — and strongly criticises the london fire brigade's response to the fire, suggesting that fewer people would have died if the tower block had been evacuated sooner. victims have told us they welcome the report. the uk is almost certainly heading to the polls before christmas — for what will be the first december general election in nearly 100 years. the government's bill setting out a vote on the 12th goes to the house of lords today, where it's not expected to be opposed. borisjohnson says he's ready to fight a "tough" campaign, while the lib dems say they're talking to the greens and plaid cymru about working together. almost six years since a helicopter
crashed into a busy glasgow bar, an accident inquiry is just publishing its report this morning. three crew members and seven customers died when the aircraft fell onto the roof of the clutha pub in november 2013. lawyers for the families of those killed and injured have voiced anger over the length of time it took to hold the inquiry. a boy who was not allowed to use a trampoline because he has prosthetic legs has received a £2,500 settlement in a disability discrimination case. zack gordon was seven when he visited the we are vertigo trampoline park in belfast two years ago. his family took legal action against the firm after zack was refused access to the trampolines on safety grounds. the firm said this was due to insurance restrictions and safety guidance from the trampoline manufacturer. whatsapp is suing an israeli surveillance firm over claims it helped facilitate the hacking of hundreds of people's phones in 20 countries around the world. diplomats, lawyers, journalists,
and human rights activists are all said to have been targeted by the n50 group — which denies the allegations. the england rugby union team have been fined for their challenge to new zealand's traditional pre—match war—dance, the haka, before last weekend's world cup semi—final. some england players crossed the half—way line to stare down the haka. world rugby said england had broken tournament rules — but the all blacks team have said they had no problem with what england did. that is a summary of our menus today. back to you, victoria. thank you very much. good morning. two years and four months ago 72 people lost their lives in what was the uk's deadliest fire since the second world war. the youngest victim was an unborn child, logan, who was stillborn hours after his mum escaped the fire. the oldest was an 84—year—old woman only known as sheila.
i hear your voice every day. and i see your face, i hear your voice every day. and i see yourface, though i hear your voice every day. and i see your face, though you are not there. at that moment, we felt like our hearts had broken. the most intelligent, wise and eloquent girl i ever knew. isaac made us very happy. he was my spitting image. he was my little man. there is a gaping hole in our hearts that can never be filled and it hurts. they were beautiful, glorious, wonderful years filled with happiness, love and laughter. i adored her.
i wanted to hug my dad, smell my dad, feel my dad, hold my dad. they will be two empty chairs at the table for every birthday, christmas and new year's, but they will for ever owi'i and new year's, but they will for ever own a position in our hearts. in the last few minutes, the public inquiry that's been hearing heart breaking testimony from the survivors and from expert witnesses has officially published its report. it says there is ‘compelling evidence' that the addition of the cladding on the outside of the tower a year before meant the block did not comply with building regulations — it was illegal. the london fire brigade is condemned for "serious shortcomings" in its response to the fire.
there were systemic and operation failings and more lives could have been saved, if the fire brigade hadn't told people to stay in their flats. the fire brigade has responded in the last couple of minutes and say this. we will now carefully and fully consider all of sir martin moore—bick‘s phase one report, take every action we can to improve public safety. many of the recommendations are welcome and will need to be fully understood, not only by the london fire brigade, but by the government. every fire and rescue service and every residential building owner and manager across the country. this morning, we are going to speak to survivors, people who escaped that night, relatives of those who died, politicians and safety campaigners. and you are welcome to get in touch with us too with your contributions. wherever you are in the country, send us an e—mail. you can send us a message you can send us a message on you can send us a message on twitter as well. use the #victoria line. we
are devoting the whole programme to the report officially published in the report officially published in the last few minutes. let me introduce you to hisam choucair, who lost his mum, his sister, brother—in—law and his three nieces. mahad egal is here, he escaped from the fourth floor with his wife and two young children, then aged three and one. karim mussilhy who lost his uncle, hesham rahman. rukayet mamudu who escaped from the first floor with her grandson, who was 12 at the time. first of all i want to ask you for your initial reaction to this report, kerry, can i start with you asa report, kerry, can i start with you as a vice chair of grenfell united? —— karim. as a vice chair of grenfell united? -- karim. we welcome it, it is strong, it is long—awaited, sir martin moore—bick has been listening
and hearing to everything and been very thorough and this was his opportunity to come out strong and really set the tone for phase two and to restore some confidence back, not only in us, the survivors and bereaved, but also in the community and the rest of the country to a certain extent. so we welcome this report and we think it's findings are very strong. what in particular do you say is strong? so for me, what stands out the most is the building was illegal. as of 2016, after the refurbishment was done, that building should not have been lived in. it was a death trap and the organisations like rb casey, celotex, and all the people involved in the refurbishment and management of that building will have to answer some serious questions. somebody broke the law and phase two will be about who broke the law and hopefully this will bring some accountability. rukayet mamudu, i
know you haven't had a chance to go through all of it, but what is your initial response? i think the report was very thorough and we appreciate what sir martin moore—bick has done and he has given us room for hope to move forward, to be able to face phase two, because he has done, i must say, a thoroughjob and we appreciate it, thank you very much. what would you say? like karim said, i welcome the report, its long—awaited, it's the truth in the findings in phase one, it is a step in the right direction and it has opened upa in the right direction and it has opened up a serious amount of questions for organisations,
governments, to answer and to tell the truth with regards to what happened. and for things to change. do you agree, mahad? this is the truth? yes, this is the beginning of the truth. it took the necessary time that it needed to. but the results are the right results we have been hoping for. most importantly, it's very important to all of us, bereaved survivors and residents, and the community, in that our neighbour in flat 16 has been exonerated from any sort of blame and that in itself is an absolute relief and as rukayet mamudu said, we are pleased with the judge in terms of the thorough inspection which he has carried out with the inquiry team, and like
hisam said, this is pandora's box 110w hisam said, this is pandora's box now and we look forward to phase two. as a solicitor, you represent 120 people who were involved that night. what is your reaction?” welcome the report. i think, night. what is your reaction?” welcome the report. ithink, as everyone has said already, it is a very detailed, very thorough report. it is 1000 pages long. the executive summary it is 1000 pages long. the executive summary alone is about ten pages, which actually shows how detailed and how thorough the inquiry team has been, the judge has been particularly thorough. i welcome the report. as a lawyer, i see so many positives in the report, because it doesn't fudge the issue is, what it doesn't fudge the issue is, what it does is it makes actual detailed findings, it makes findings about the fire brigade, detailed findings about the state put policy and how that was applied on the night. that is welcoming. it makes detailed findings about the regulations. it's
clear that the regulations were breached. we were worried that the judge would have difficulty with this issue but he's been very clear about it. he says that the external pa rt of about it. he says that the external part of the building did not adequately resist the spread of the fire. he said it acted like fuel. exactly. he did point out in the report he wasn't necessarily expecting to reach that conclusion in this first report but he said to ignore it, there is no other conclusion, it is common sense to put it in there right now. can i also add that arconic and a number of other organisations... arconic made the plastic ladder can a celotex made the insulation. celotex made the insulation. but arconic and two other companies involved with the refurbishment wrote to the judge and asked him to not find any noncompliance findings just yet, it wouldn't be right to do so, and he welcomed them to prove him otherwise, show me that these materials were compliant, they failed to do so. the evidence was so
overwhelming that he had to say the building was noncompliant. the worry was that he wouldn't do it at this stage. the brilliant thing is he has done it at this stage and been bold enough to say, i can't ignore this, this is very serious, and that obviously impacts on other buildings as well and other people who live in those other buildings so we welcome that. we are going to talk much more specifically about the things that the retired judge, the conclusion is the retired judge, the conclusion is the retired judge has come to in this report. but before we do, we are going to remind you what happened on the night of the fire and in some of the days that followed.
i opened the front door. the fire brigade, the ambulance and the police can do nothing, they couldn't get in, they were telling them just to stay there, stay where they are, we will come and get you. anybody in the building needs to ring 999, there is a dedicated line for this incident, 0k? when i opened the window i saw fire in the window going up and i said, "my god, what is going on?"” thought i lost him. i didn't want to turn back after 20 minutes to my daughter and say to her, "i don't think your dad's coming out."
we we re we were seeing the fire is collating, going up the building, so i was collating, going up the building, so iwas like, collating, going up the building, so i was like, i'm not waiting for them are firefighters, i'm going out through the window. wow. we saw a lot. we saw a lot, man. we saw a lot with our own eyes. we saw friends, families... honestly, it's all right, you don't need to say any more. they can't hide! their families can't hide! and you don't think we deserve more! today we are back in north kensington to catch up with some of those we first met on that first wednesday. i don't want money! we
are not looking for money. he doesn't want temporary accommodation, he wants permanent accommodation, he wants permanent accommodation, he wants good, permanent accommodation, that is not too much to ask. can you promise him that? what we have said is that... just say yes or no. i work hard, i had a good house! it's like, nobody can believe what happened. 72 people lost their lives asa happened. 72 people lost their lives as a result of that fire needlessly. they shouldn't have done. and anything we continue to do in the future will be in their memory, in their legacy, that they didn't die in vain. if we get a few days where we don't have to think about it, then, yeah, but i don't think we'll ever forget. i think it's impossible to do that. we reported on some of the conclusions of the retired judge on
the programme yesterday. we are going to bring you a reminder of the mainfindings of going to bring you a reminder of the main findings of the inquiry report officially released just a quarter officially released just a quarter ofan hourorso officially released just a quarter of an hour or so ago. our reporter jim reed is here. what does it say? first of all some background, the report released this morning as part of the public inquiries into what happened at grenfell tower. that public inquiries split into two parts, the first part looks at the night itself, what happened on the 14th of june 2017. a second part that starts in january next year looks at events leading up to the fire, so that in particular will look at this refit of the block which finished in 2016 and the cladding attached to the outside, this first part looks specifically at the night itself, so some conclusions that have already come out. it says the fire started in a fridge freezer in flight 16 on the fourth floor of the tower. that fire melted the pvc window, the plastic window, and the flames got up between the cladding and the
external wall of the building, and that's what led the fire to spread. the spread itself is crucial. we know the fire started in flat 16 on the fourth floor. 20 minutes later, it was on the 24th floor of the building and that speed is described by sirmartin building and that speed is described by sir martin moore—bick in this report as profoundly shocking. he says, to an onlooker it must have been truly terrifying to see that spread so quickly. there has been a lot about how the london fire brigade responded that night. we talked about this yesterday, it is important to point out there's a lot of criticism here but not really criticism of individual firefighters the day. the report repeatedly talks about their extraordinary bravery at going into that building not knowing whether they were frankly going to be able to come out or not. but there is criticism at a much higher level of the fire service, so things like tactics, equipment used, training in particular. the planning for a file like this was described as gravely inadequate. just one
example, of the first four fire crews that arrived that morning, not a single person had training in how to deal with a high—rise fire involving cladding like this. then there is specific criticism around there is specific criticism around the stay put policy, this is the idea that people in the flat were calling 999, in the tower in their flats, calling 999 and one of the to stay put in their flats, not to not to try to escape. that is quite standard advice in a tower block fire like this. the idea is, the theory called compartmentalisation, you keep the fire in the kitchen, you keep the fire in the kitchen, you put it out, it avoids 200—300 people trying to make their way down the stairs at the same time which could be dangerous. the criticism here is the fire service didn't realise early enough that that was not working. it says by 1:30am in the morning, 1:50am at the latest, they should have realised that wasn't working. in fact, that policy wasn't working. in fact, that policy was continued until 2:47am, over an hour, and they say that likely cost
lives that morning. what do the london fire brigade themselves say this morning? you touched on some of this morning? you touched on some of this earlier in the show. we have had a response from london fire brigade. it is a lengthy response, saying, they will carefully consider all the report and take every action they can to improve public safety. they do welcome the recognition of the bravery of firefighters but they say they are disappointing at criticism of individual staff members. they also say they are disappointed that some measures they have been calling for are not in this report. they give the example of the wider use of sprinklers. they now say they will lobby for major changes to building regulations and they say the national stay put policy as it is is no longer viable. right will that is a change in tone, significant change in tone compared to what the london fire chief dany cotton told the inquiry at the time, which was that she wouldn't have done anything differently. thank you,jim, forthe thank you, jim, for the moment. we are going to talk about the specific
findings now with survivors and relatives who we have here. also with us, solicitorjhangir mahmood, who represents 120 survivors, and we have arnold tarling, a fire safety expert and surveyor, and sid—ali is here as well, who has justjoined us. thank you for coming on our programme. i want to ask for your response from dany cotton's statement this morning, the london fire commissioner, who has expressed her, "deeply sorry at not being able to save all those who died in the g re nfell tower to save all those who died in the grenfell tower fire. " they had the opportunity to save everybody in that tower. we are talking about two hours, we are not talking about two hours, we are not talking about two hours, we are not talking about 20 minutes, it's talking about two hours, we are not talking about 20 minutes, its two hours for you to make a decision, to make a decision to evacuate people from that tower. there is no excuse, there is no panicking, you've got training, you are qualified, you are
professional, there is no forgiveness for this. you are outside of the building, people are inside of the building, firefighters fighting inside, they don't know where they are going, it is foggy, it is black, pitch black, but they risk their life. we are talking about individual firefighters that confused himself, exhausted himself, but the people, the ones in command outside, had the opportunity to evacuate people from the building. you lost six members of your family. do you accept dany cotton's expression of her deepest sorrow at not being able to save your family members? no, i don't accept her apology. i think she should resign rather than retire. i think her comments were insensitive to the bereaved, the survivors and the community. i think she is incompetent and she lacks
leadership, and i think she has retired doubtlessly, basically. sorry, can i just retired doubtlessly, basically. sorry, can ijust add to that, i totally agree with you, hisam, i think dany cotton needs to step down today. i think the london fire brigade need to take this report, stop playing this whole victim game. 0k, yes, there were brave firefighters, some families will tell you otherwise. however, there we re tell you otherwise. however, there were catastrophic failures from the london fire brigade all across the night and they need to take responsibility to stop blaming other people, and we need to now move on to phase two and think about looking at the bigger picture. the london fire brigade and fire brigades union, because the narrative in the la st union, because the narrative in the last couple of days has been the firefighters are being blamed, that's not the case. the report is not saying or blaming the london fire brigade for what happened that night but they were the people that we re night but they were the people that were solely responsible for putting out the fire and rescuing families and they couldn't do that. so you
are calling for the resignation of dany are calling for the resignation of da ny cotto n, are calling for the resignation of dany cotton, the chief of the london fire brigade right now? yes. she should not have the luxury of retiring early with this £2 million pot. she needs to step down today and they need to get some real is because clearly her and other senior members in the london fire brigade should not be in their role so sadiq khan needs to have serious thinking is about the london fire brigade right now. we are not saying it is not their fault. we are saying that basic radio equipment... how are you not communicating with people inside and outside? how are the operators arguing with my uncle telling him that the fire is not on his floor, it is on the fourth floor, open the tv in the operation room, look at your social media. the communication. at what point does common—sense kick in, arriving looking at a tower engulfed in flames and yet we are telling people to stay put. common sense, people! the london fire brigade need to stop
this narrative of they are blaming us, they are using us as a scapegoat, that's not the case. what the report says about the stay put policy as it had become an article of faith within the london fire brigade, that it was conventional wisdom that that always worked and it meant they couldn't break out from that, and as you say, use common sense. look, victoria, the way i look at things is based on logic, just like your colleague was just saying. the reason why state but is in place is because these fires are supposed to be contained in one part of the flat, right? it is very obvious that as of 1:30am that night, that was not the case. so we should have made the decision early on. my uncle could have been saved. and not only that, as well, there was no communication and nobody in the operating room asking people if they had mobility issues. my uncle was a disabled man who couldn't walk and lived on the top floor of the tower but their training tells them that they have to volunteer this information to you, you don't ask them. so at no
point was my uncle asked, do you have mobility issues, are you disabled, can you get out if you get out? and when stay put was changed, there was no clear indication in terms of communication to the people in the building, get out. yes, that's true. it said it wasn't clear advice from those who were still taking the 999 calls. no. can i say something about dany cotton, she gave evidence under oath. we can play that clip, this is dany cotton giving evidence to the inquiry last year. any time now, i promise you. commissioner, if there was one aspect of the london fire brigade's response to the fire that you could go back and change, what would it be? i wouldn't change anything we did on the night. i think, without exception, my firefighters, my office rs exception, my firefighters, my officers and my control staff performed in a fantastic way, given the incredible circumstances they
we re the incredible circumstances they were faced against. they were put into an untenable situation and in a building that behaved in a way that it should never have done that for the residents' lives at risk and without a shadow of a doubt i personally was responsible for committing my firefighters to their potential death in the pursuance of rescuing as many people in that building as possible. we learn from every operational incident but in the same manner that i wouldn't develop a training package for a space shuttle to land on the shard, we would respond to it and deal with it in the same professional manner we do. that is an incident of that scale, so i wouldn't expect us to be developing training or a response to something that simply shouldn't happen. mahad, what you think of that? shocking, very shocking. we are we a re halfway we are halfway there to discovering the full truth and the report's finding in regards to london fire brigade's approach and planning and the state put policy having failed
is halfway to the story. it is important that at the end of phase two, that we have another discussion as regards to this because then we will have the full picture. but so far, as to what we have discovered and seen so far in the report, it is very promising and does restore faith within thejudge very promising and does restore faith within the judge in how he very promising and does restore faith within thejudge in how he is leading the inquiry. how do you respond to what dany cotton said to that inquiry, that she wouldn't change a thing? there is a marked change a thing? there is a marked change in tone in the statement from the london fire brigade today. her comments are quite simple, it is a gutless, coward's response, it is a defensive response. first of all, to protect the london fire brigade and to protect her position. 0r protect the london fire brigade and to protect her position. or the person that's going to be taking her position. there are clear failings from the london fire brigade and
those failings are due to lack of leadership, lack of training to the london fire brigade. there were clear errors that were made. there was a lack of communication. a lack of training. and to actually say that she basically was sending firefighters to their death in terms of with the way the building behaved, well, had your firefighters been trained to deal with a situation like that, they shouldn't be surprised by, you know, how the fire behaved. in fact, it is within their policy that they are supposed to recognise fires that have cladding material on them. sol don't understand why they are surprised when they have come across this. we are going to talk to the fire brigades union and national fire brigades union and national fire chiefs council in a moment.
rukayet mamudu, what do you think? she said she was surprised with the way the fire behaved. they had seen it burning from the outside. why couldn't they change their decision instantly. they would have saved those people. they were telling people to go upstairs to the last floor where they would be safe, provided what information was that for? who was going to save them from there? they ended up dying up there. i think it's important to stress like everyone here is saying and in the report, there were failings from the report, there were failings from the lfb down, but this report in no way is blaming the lfb for the fire. this narrative needs to change. it's saying that the lfb had a lot of failings which they need to address, they are not at fault for that fire and norare they are not at fault for that fire and nor are the firefighters. it's
never been about the individual firefighters. i've always said this, i'm surprised we're not talking about loss of lives from the firefighters. but we need, they need to ta ke firefighters. but we need, they need to take this on board, get the government to help them make the changes they need to, because the government also are at fault here. they need to implement these recommendations. we will talk about the political side, we have had a statement from kensington and chelsea council, their leader says we fully accept the findings in the criticism of the council and will look carefully at the recommendations in the coming days to see how they can be implemented in our borough to make sure people are as safe as they can possibly be in their homes. we have phase two to come but where do you feel kensington and chelsea council are in the hierarchy of responsibility for what happened that night, jhangir mahmood?” responsibility for what happened that night, jhangir mahmood? i think they mostly bear primary responsibility, as a landlord of the property and landlord of the
tenants. they have accepted, and the statement that you just read out, i'm not wholly convinced by it. wide? they have not admitted liability. in these proceedings... we fully accept the findings and criticisms... we have had many meetings with them, and the meetings they have not accepted liability. they have not accepted that they... there were failings, this is the first time i've heard anything close to that. they've actually signed up to that. they've actually signed up to the bishops charter, where they accepted they would be transparent and where they found to be at fault, they would accept that. where they feel they themselves are at fault, they will accept that and they haven't done that today. let's see how much further this statement goes. so martin moore-bick says it will be necessary in phase two to examine why those who were responsible for the refurbishment considered that building regulations
had been met. he makes it clear in this report that the building was illegal. as soon as that cladding was put on, year before the fire, the building did not comply with safety regular —— regulations, which is absolutely shocking, isn't it? many of you said that at the time but now you have it in black and white. potentially many people are responsible. it might not be just one organisation is responsible. the landlords and the owners of the property, ridings... landlords and the owners of the property, ridings. .. where does health and safety come in? who signed for that property? that's a very good question. building control. go on. she signed the statement and she believes she is brave or she has the knowledge and
the experience for giving that statement and saying about changes. what changes is she talking about question much confused me here. it's 28 months now, we are going to 29 months. the community and the regulation and the policies are still the same. we receive a lot of talk, a lot of verbal talk, promises, but people are still at risk of their own houses. the doors, they are not fire resistant. they still live at risk, there is nobody checking on them and they are still talking... they are giving us the same talk, the same words, they are not changing anything. basically, they are good with meetings, they are good with paperwork, they are good with writing black and white and we do this... that there is no action, no security. the actions don't match the word. there are a
lot of people living in high—risk buildings with the cladding on, with a high risk and they are living inside. for 28 months they've been arguing and we've been talking with them, communicating. the councils, not just the them, communicating. the councils, notjust the board of kensington, all of them around the country, they haven't done a move, they haven't done even one step just to secure these people. i'm going to pause you there. i know hisam and karim living ina there. i know hisam and karim living in a moment. the significance of this report, now it's out, how does it feel to you? i'm digesting it slowly, to be honest with you. it's a step in the right direction. it's change which we want, in order for there never to happen again. but
it's sad that it's got to this level and it shouldn't have happened in the first place. there could be a numberof the first place. there could be a number of contributing factors that have caused this to happen, ignorance is one of them, agreed. austerity. and we need to target these areas as well, to prevent this from happening again, this inferno. all i was going to add is also the lack of... the risk of not learning from previous lessons, past lessons. i really wholly believe now that having read and it's been established in the report, having read it with my own eyes, that it's actually on the shoulders of the lsb to provide the relevant, suitable trainings for such circumstances
because when we are dealing with high—rise buildings with cladding on, like dany cotton said, the behaviour of the fire is something that they should know that she failed on that. i'm going to talk to a representative from the fire brigade's union in a moment and a represent of the national fire chiefs council who represent uk fire services. before you leave, karim mussilhy, in terms of the significance of this report today, how are you feeling? i'm feeling relieved that i can now talk about it, now the nondisclosure has been lifted, even though it got leaked, which was disrespectful and inconsiderate of us. leaking it in the media and knowing we couldn't talk about it was upsetting for us. i'm relieved we can talk about it. asi i'm relieved we can talk about it. as i said earlier, we welcome the findings. mahad made a good point earlier, the alf neighbour in flat 16 has been exonerated. —— that our
neighbour in flat 16 has been exonerated. the treatment he has had from the media and other corporate bodies that have blamed him for the fire, i'm glad so martin moore—bick has found what he found and hopefully we can be with him now because we've not been able. there isa because we've not been able. there is a photograph of the fridge in his flat, flat 16 on the fourth floor. the report completely exonerated him. there is a point in the report where the makers of the external facade of the tower tried to suggest to so martin moore—bick that perhaps the fire had started by a cigarette end falling from higher up the tower and falling into the window of the flat. ridiculous. thank you for your time. can i say one more thing? we wa nt time. can i say one more thing? we want the government to commit to the findings of so martin moore—bick's recommendations and we wish for a
panel, independent of members of parliament, to hold the government accountable to submit to these recommendations and to be held accountable if they don't. an independent panel. sure, thank you. thank you for your time, thank you. i'm going to move over here now. we're going to spend the next few minutes talking to about the fire bridages' response. in a moment we'll talk to matt wrack from the union that represents rank and file firefighters, but, first, let's talk to roy wilshire from the fire chiefs council who represent uk fire services and lord porter a conservative councillor who is building safety spokesman for the local government association. good morning. you will have heard two relatives who lost people in the fire that night call for the resignation of the commissioner of
the london fire brigade, dany cotton. should she reside? well, i think first of all, our greatest sympathies go out to the bereaved, survivors, relatives, residents. we can only imagine what they are going through and imagine the hurt they are going through. i think danny has headed the fire brigade a number of yea rs, headed the fire brigade a number of years, she is retiring soon. there is still work she has to do to put things onto the right track. so you don't think she should resign? not today, no. tomorrow? ithink dany is working her time through the organisation. have you seen the criticism in this report? yes, i have. i haven't read the whole report, i've seen the media reports. right. the criticism of what senior members of the management team didn't get right that night include preparation and planning for such a fire gravely inadequate. no training
on the dangers of combustible cladding. lsb incident commanders had no training in recognising the need of an evacuation or how to organise one. serious deficiencies in command and control. many of physical or electronic communication didn't work. i mean, that's not even the whole list. how can she stay in herjob? well, i think the lessons have been identified now. what we need to do... who is accountable for all those errors and the deaths of 72 people? i think is your previous guests 72 people? i think is your previous gu ests have 72 people? i think is your previous guests have said, the people responsible for the fire were not the london fire brigade. the fire was beyond the experience of those who attended. yes, we started to understand there were cladding fires and starting to do well, but it was the first time we have seen a fire go up, the first time we have seen a fire go up, round and down a building. it's beyond the experience of the people who attended. there are lots of lessons identified. it's not
beyond the expense of those who attended, in 2009, cladding went up swiftly in a similar way and people died then. my understanding was the breaches were internal, a separate entity, you didn't have the same cladding as grenfell. what about the stay put advice, in place for too long and lead to more deaths than we re necessary , long and lead to more deaths than were necessary, who is responsible for that? stay put advice is a building strategy, not a fire and rescue service strategy. we work with that strategy. therefore, you have a choice to abandon it and that is the criticism in the report today, that it was not abandoned early enough and more people died than needed to. we have a much better understanding now stoplight people died because the stay put policy was not abandoned.” people died because the stay put policy was not abandoned. i don't know you are hearing the significance of that. i think we have had the significance. 0ne significance of that. i think we have had the significance. one of your guest said earlier that nothing
has changed. they know there are still more than 200 buildings at that cladding. do you have any regret the stay put policy wasn't abandoned earlier?” regret the stay put policy wasn't abandoned earlier? i have regret over those who died. your response to the fact that the cladding which was on the external facade of the tower breached building safety regulations and yet the council, we don't know why, perhaps i will come out in phase two, had not enforced building regulations? first of all, cani building regulations? first of all, can i obviously say i cannot imagine how your earlier guests feel with all this. i don't want to sound disrespectful about the comments they made about their pleasure with they made about their pleasure with the way the report had gone and how sirmartin the way the report had gone and how sir martin had dealt with are in a way they appreciated, i still haven't seen the report yet, i haven't seen the report yet, i haven't seen the report yet, i
haven't seen an advance copy of it, but my main issue is he was looking at the wrong thing first. we should have been looking at by the fire started, how the fire started and the consequences for all of the other tower blocks in the country. there are over 12,000 high—rise buildings in the country first no disrespect to your two guests the fire service, they only look after the fire service in london and that is not the whole country first my concern is for everybody who lives ina concern is for everybody who lives in a high—rise building and i don't think it's been fair from the leaks that we have heard of, not that we've seen but heard of, that the fire service themselves were taking criticism. there were guys who went in and out of that building on that night who did things i cannot imagine having to face. sol night who did things i cannot imagine having to face. so i don't wa nt imagine having to face. so i don't want us to lose focus on where the real villains are in this, and those are the people who make the products that were put on those buildings. that is where the real focus should be. we should be sorting out the
people who are criminally guilty of doing the wrong things and knowing it. the testing regime... that time may come. that's what we should be talking about now. what we are in danger of now is for the next two years, the public narrative around this will be the men and women who got involved on that night, they will be vilified. not if you read the report. it very clearly talks about the selfless courage of individual firefighters on the ground. let me read some messages. 0ne text, says i live in a high—rise which has a stay put policy. how can ibe which has a stay put policy. how can i be sure that this has our best interest at heart? another, my husband and i are at home in our co mforta ble husband and i are at home in our comfortable home feeling safe and secure, as we watch a programme. surely every family should be able to feel safe in their home. the poor people who are trapped and died must have wondered what to do and where to go. it is horrific to think bureaucracy and penny pinching has led to this terrible loss of life, homes and peace of mind. another,
this just seems to be a blaming exercise. i feel the fire this just seems to be a blaming exercise. ifeel the fire service did the best they could with the information available on that night. the real culprits are those who allowed the cheaper materials to be used in the first place. before i move on to talk to a fire brigade union representative, i would like to come back to you, roy will show, from the fire chiefs council. you told us this morning you don't think the london fire brigade commissioner dany the london fire brigade commissioner da ny cotto n the london fire brigade commissioner dany cotton should resign, despite calls from those who lost people in the fire that night. do you believe she should be able to retire next year with what is reported to be a pension pot of £2 million? well, i think that is dany‘s personal situation. the pension pot goes over a whole career, notjust the last two years. it's her personal circumstances and she is dealing with them. so, yes, she should be able to retire with that? it's a
personal financial matters. 0k. let's talk to much rack from the fire brigade union, the union that represents rank and file firefighters. i'm going to say again, sirmartin firefighters. i'm going to say again, sir martin moore—bick highlighted the bravery of firefighters, their dedication, their courage in the most harrowing of circumstances, that is important, isn't it? it is important. we are clearly going through the report, it isa clearly going through the report, it is a long report. we had it a day and a half ago and we will respond more fully. just picking up some of the points that have been made. what has been missed so far as we need a fundamental change in direction in fire and rescue policy. we were told after the fire by by chief of the office rs after the fire by by chief of the officers and others it's a turning point. i have to say, in 28 months since the fire, fire fighters have not seen much happen at all. they have not address the risks facing grenfell. this needs to be seized as an opportunity. do you agree with
the report that more people could have been saved if the building had been evacuated earlier?” have been saved if the building had been evacuated earlier? i think that is an extremely complex issue. i don't think the report... i don't think we can make a clearjudgment on that. if you look at the timings, for example, barbara lane, one of the expert witnesses, suggested that between 1:26am and 1:40am, such was the window and evacuation could have taken place. the report now says 1:30am and 1:50am. that is when a decision should have been taken to abandon. the window of opportunity during which the evacuation could have ta ken place. during which the evacuation could have taken place. if that decision was made lives could have been saved. i think there was a confusion between evacuations and rescues. there was no mechanism for calling people in the flats to alert them. there were people clearly on the phone. i think the question of stay
put, we raised the question of stay put, we raised the question of stay put as a union as long ago when two firefighters died. we ourselves have raised concerns about stay put for a numberof raised concerns about stay put for a number of years. we raised questions, if i canjust finish, this is important. the grenfell tower inquiry was asked if they want to make interim recommendations. last december, we called for a national review of the stay put policy last december. martin moore—bick chose policy last december. martin moore— bick chose not policy last december. martin moore—bick chose not to make that recommendation last december. the government could have moved straight after the fire to review the stay put policy. you need a joined up approach, taking account of building experts, fire safety experts, fire service experts and then you need to test it on the ground. that could have happened within months of the fire, why didn't it happen? dany cotton, i'm just getting more on what she had said this morning in response to the report that was out at 10am on the accusation she showed remarkable insensitivity when saying she wouldn't change anything on the night. she said if i caused any one
additional offence, i'm truly sorry. she was asked if she would resign some of their families on our programme have been calling for this morning foster she says, no, programme have been calling for this morning fostershe says, no, i won't, i will retire in six morning fostershe says, no, i won‘t, i will retire in six months‘ time because my commitment is to making those changes and if i resign, can‘t do that. thank you for your time. i‘m going to go back to our guests on the other side of the studio. we appreciate that. we just have a few minutes left before the end of the programme. let me bring you in, you have been very patient as an expert in fire safety control and all sorts of areas. your response to this report? i‘m not surprised by the content of the report. i‘m not surprised at the comments about the stay put policy and that it should have been evacuated earlier. but there is a major mistake, this goes back before grenfell. we‘ve had warnings mentioned by matt rack about harrow
court. we had lakanal house. at those people been told exactly what the stay put policy says, which is stay put in less affected by heat and smoke, all of those people at lakanal and smoke, all of those people at la ka nal house would and smoke, all of those people at lakanal house would have survived. the first two words, stay put, stay put, stay put it should not be stay put, stay put it should not be stay put, it should be the and less policy. unless you are unaffected by heat and fire, get out. it goes back to previous ministers and their advisers. 0rder to previous ministers and their advisers. order 43 letter was sent to the government after the lakanal house fire, telling them that there we re house fire, telling them that there were problems with the stay put policy. i'm going to pause that there, so sorry to interrupt but i have some more quotes here from the london fire brigade commissioner dany london fire brigade commissioner da ny cotto n. london fire brigade commissioner dany cotton. she says this, and i
would like to get your reaction if i may. we will never forget the tragedy of that night, 72 lives lost. was just the worst thing ever and london fire brigade is truly sorry. nothing she says will make me accept her apology. there were clear failings. there was a lack of leadership. i actually welcome an investigation on her and, in my opinion, she shouldn't be able, she shouldn't access this £2 million if found guilty. it should be withdrawn from her. she has said this morning she will not be resigning. i'm not surprised, it's ignorance. what do you say? i would say, she would be wiser to resign because this report thatis wiser to resign because this report that is out genuinely is pointing
the finger at her incapability to rule the fire brigade or work with the fire brigade. it's common sense. she could see the fire spreading, just change the rules and let people live. she didn't do that. sorry, go on. we haven‘t got long left. live. she didn't do that. sorry, go on. we haven't got long left. she mentioned sorry behalf of london fire brigade. she can't say that, because we're talking about the report, were talking about the process, how it was process that night. we're not talking about firefighters. she is giving sorry on behalf of everyone, land and fry brigade, but she needs to say, i am sorry, please accept my apology with my decisions. —— london fire brigade. she can't talk on behalf of firefighters. 0f
brigade. she can't talk on behalf of firefighters. of course, they are trained, but at the same time they risk their life, but they haven't got equipment, their radios were not working properly. they wanted to evacuate, to save people, but they we re evacuate, to save people, but they were being pushed away. what do you say to that? about her words? in regards to what dany cotton just said, in light of the report, i think dany cotton should take a lesson learnt from the report‘s recommendations and see that there has been errors in the way the night‘s planning was executed. i think there are lessons to be learned because there are still people living in high—rise buildings who actually need help. it is important that lfb takes lessons learned from this report and not see it as points to defend themselves from. i'm going to pause there, i‘m so sorry, we are
coming to the end of the programme andi coming to the end of the programme and i want to end our programme by hearing from this. at that moment, we felt like our hearts had broken. the most wise and eloquent girl i ever knew. isaac made us very happy. he was my spitting image. he was my little man. there is a gaping hole in our hearts that can never be filled and it hurts. they were beautiful, glorious
wonderful years, filled with happiness, love and laughter. i adored her. i wanted to hug my dad, hold him, feel my dad, hold my dad. there will be two empty chairs on the table for every birthday, christmas and new year‘s but they will forever own a position in our hearts. good morning, conditions today similarto good morning, conditions today similar to yesterday, lots of dry and bright weather out there at the moment. for some, lots and bright weather out there at the moment. forsome, lots of and bright weather out there at the moment. for some, lots of sunshine. that is the scene in nottingham at the moment, an autumnal scene, the tree is now starting to turn the
orange and brown. for many of us, we will keep that fine and dry weather with some sunshine into the afternoon. still some cloud in the far south—west of england, perhaps a bit of drizzly rain moving into the far south—west of wales later. maximum temperature is getting up to about 9—13. through tonight, not a great deal of change, really. we keep this cloud and outbreaks of rain in the south—west. elsewhere, a bit of cloud moving into eastern areas but there will be some clear skies and the risk of some frost again in the northern half of the uk. further south, staying mild. temperatures no lower than 8—11. thursday, for halloween, looking largely dry, sunshine in central and eastern areas but still some cloud and rain affecting western areas later in the day and into the evening. bye—bye.
this is bbc news. i‘m joanna gosling, live at westminster. the headlines at 11. britain is due to head to the polls for the first december general election in almost a century, after mps vote in favour of a pre—christmas ballot to try to end the brexit deadlock. we want to get brexit done and then move onto a positive domestic agenda. the only way to do that is to vote conservative and, frankly, a vote for any other party is a vote to putjeremy corbyn into downing street. we're going to have a real go at this and i think we'll win. i think we'll have a majority government by christmas, so i can't think of a better christmas present, basically! in the last hour, former cabinet minister amber rudd has announced she will not stand at the forthcoming general election
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