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tv   BBC News  BBC News  August 15, 2021 5:00pm-6:01pm BST

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this is bbc news — our top stories: the rush to leave kabul, as taliban fighters enter the capital of afghanistan. president ghani has fled the country. the taliban say they want to prevent looting in kabul. there are reports of shooting in several parts of the city. the militants have rolled through the entire country in a matter of weeks. in a bbc interview, a spokesman says women will be safe — if they wear the hijab. the policy is that women can have access to education and to work and of course they will observe the hijab, that is it. helicopters ferry us diplomats from their embassy, but the us secretary of state says the two decade long us military operation in afghanistan was a success.
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it's up to the afghans themselves, it's up to the afghan government, it's up to the taliban, to decide the way forward for the country, including kabul. the taliban are on the verge of taking control of afghanistan — 20 years after being removed from power. reports suggest the militant group have ordered their fighters to enter the capital, kabul after local police deserted their posts. they have seized every other major city in afghanistan after a lightning advance that saw the us—equipped government army flee from their path. the president, ashraf ghani, has left the country.
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these pictures filmed by the bbc in kabul show people attempting to leave the city. the taliban said they are in talks with senior officials in president ashraf ghani's government on a peaceful transfer of power. and these images have emerged of us embassy staff being helicoptered to kabul airport. it comes as the secretary of state antony blinken has insisted the situation is "patently not saigon" — in a reference to america's humiliating departure from vietnam in 1975. he argued us had succeded in its mission. we can do right by the people who stood with us in afghanistan all these years, including afghans who worked for the embassy, worked for our military. we have a massive effort under way to bring afghans at risk out of the country, if that's what they so desire. and ultimately it is up to the afghans themselves, it is up to the afghan government, the taliban, to decide the way forward for the country, including kabul.
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this story is moving at a fast pace — so let's just remind ourselves what else we know happenend today. the taliban closed in on kabul this morning — after seizing the eastern city of jalalabad. afghanistan's acting interior minister said they want a peaceful transfer of power to a transitional government. the taliban has told the bbc they want to take power in the next few days but will respect the rights of women. roads out of kabul have been packed with people fleeing the taliban. the taliban have captured more territory, including the former us airbase at bagram. the us has begun evacuating staff from their embassy in the capital. according to eyewitnesses, taliban militants met little resistance along the way to the capital. our south asia regional editor anbarasan ethirajan watching the developments in afghanistan from delhi gave more details on reports that the taliban have sent in some fighters into kabul.
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the taliban spokesperson announced that some of their fighters have entered the city, not in a full force, but what they are saying is that is to prevent looting and arson and because there have been some reports of people trying to break into the shops and security forces had vacated some of the posts, so they are very clear that they are going to occupy those places where the security forces are not present, to bring the situation under control, to prevent any looting in the night and evening, so they are not saying we are going to completely take over but one never knows what will happen by this morning, because since we started going on air this morning, things have been changing dramatically, we have been talking about preventing kabul falling into the hands of the taliban, now we're talking the countries
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but without the president ashraf ghani has left the country, according to the news agencies there and also one of the senior government officials. it has triggered a lot of media anger, one journalist says that ghani has ruined the people and left on his own. the fact that he managed to get away, despite all these hardships, confusion, fear, people not knowing who has come to take over, and that the president has left the country, that has really angered people. it is extraordinary, and even in the official confirmation, we saw that phrase that the people willjudge him for what he has done. yes, because many people blame this government for the current situation and the way the way the whole government collapse in the last ten days, there has been shocking for many afghans because they thought it was a government, the structure of the government had that had been put in place for the last 20 years, american and other western countries have been pumping in money to build a civil society,
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the government structure, ministry buildings, supreme court, various divisions, they thought they would hold together, but if you see what happened, in most parts of the country that have come under this rule, now that president ghani has left and we do not know whether anything is still under government control, and the second thing is that there was a big gap between provincial councils and the government in kabul, and these provincial council governors have been doing deals with the taliban and switching sides and the whole thing collapsed in the last 10—12 days, that has really shocked people. we can now speak to vali nasr, professor of international relations atjohns hopkins university. he was also senior advisor to the us special representative for afghanistan between 2009 and 2011. you know about what it is like on the ground in afghanistan. how shocked are you by today? i’m
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the ground in afghanistan. how shocked are you by today? i'm not shocked are you by today? i'm not shocked by — shocked are you by today? i'm not shocked by today, _ shocked are you by today? i'm not shocked by today, because - shocked are you by today? i'm not shocked by today, because this i shocked are you by today? i'm not i shocked by today, because this was, it has been clear over the past week that the taliban blitzkrieg for control of afghanistan is much more aggressive and successful than we expected. the fall of kabul was inevitable, because they had cut off most of the trade routes to the city and begun to surround it and the situation in kabul was not tenable. today came faster than the us expected. but i think the entire way the taliban has swept afghanistan has come as a shock. [30 the taliban has swept afghanistan has come as a shock.— the taliban has swept afghanistan has come as a shock. do you think the taliban — has come as a shock. do you think the taliban in _ has come as a shock. do you think the taliban in 2021 _ has come as a shock. do you think the taliban in 2021 is _ has come as a shock. do you think the taliban in 2021 is different - has come as a shock. do you think the taliban in 2021 is different to i the taliban in 2021 is different to the taliban in 2021 is different to the former taliban. it the taliban in 2021 is different to the former taliban.— the taliban in 2021 is different to the former taliban. it depends on which taliban _ the former taliban. it depends on which taliban we _ the former taliban. it depends on which taliban we are _ the former taliban. it depends on which taliban we are talk - the former taliban. it depends on which taliban we are talk about, i the former taliban. it depends on i which taliban we are talk about, the leaders have learned lessons from the past, it doesn't mean the
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religious views are more tolerant. they understand international affairs more and have been doing diplomacy with a host of countries and they have learned about how the keep the outsiders out of afghanistan. in other words, keep the outsiders out of afghanistan. in otherwords, i keep the outsiders out of afghanistan. in other words, i don't think they want to go back to hosting al-qaeda and create a situation where the united states would compaq after —— would come back. ground level taliban, commanders, village boys whojoined the taliban, i don't think they're much different. in practice in many parts of the afghanistan that is the taliban the people will encounter, they will be brutal and not pragmatic and it remains to be seen whether the commanders who were in doha and will be in kabul can control the fighters and be able to
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establish discipline over them. that is so interesting. _ establish discipline over them. that is so interesting. i suppose it means in a way we have to see what kyne of —— kind of taliban emerges and can't assume it will take a particular shape.— and can't assume it will take a particular shape. whatever shape it takes will be _ particular shape. whatever shape it takes will be more _ particular shape. whatever shape it takes will be more hard _ particular shape. whatever shape it takes will be more hard line - particular shape. whatever shape it takes will be more hard line and - takes will be more hard line and brutal than the government that the afghans and in particular the middle class afghans have been used to. they will be harsher on enforcing religious edicts, forcing women not to go to school in many places, forcing them out of their public sphere, clearly women won't be allowed to work. in those senses, afghanistan will be a very different place. but in terms of governance and how they're going to handle their relations with their neighbours etc, that remains to be
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seen. it is not a given that a successful military machine is actually going to be a successful governing machine and whether they can establish control over all of afghanistan and over their own commanders and many of the people they have negotiated with to get them to surrender and open the way. in other words in many places they have allies, but can they keep those alliances as they go forward? listen ou talk a alliances as they go forward? listen you talk a greater _ alliances as they go forward? listen you talk a greater pragmatism - alliances as they go forward? listen you talk a greater pragmatism on i alliances as they go forward? listen you talk a greater pragmatism on the part of today's taliban, i suppose they will be aware how much they will need foreign aid? the? they will be aware how much they will need foreign aid?— will need foreign aid? they will. and that is _ will need foreign aid? they will. and that is not _ will need foreign aid? they will. and that is notjust _ will need foreign aid? they will. and that is not just american i and that is notjust american foreign aid, it will be chinese foreign aid, it will be chinese foreign aid, it will be chinese foreign aid and european foreign aid, japanese aid. there is a degree of influence, it is no going to change them drastically, but it will impact their decision—making on
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things the west cares about and ultimately the decision to leave afghanistan for the united states in the doha agreement was based on no terrorist attacks coming from dpans from afghanistan in the direction of the west. the us washed their hands on the right of women and is not willing to defend them. the taliban understand that and understand the united states cares about terrorism and only terrorism will bring the united states back. so i think prat matically i would find it difficult to see why they would cross that line again. but short of that, i think they understand that they have a lot of room to manoeuvre and they can bargain with the international community on those issues. thank ou.
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we can speak to our reporter in kabul. you have brought us images of people trying to get out. what is it like to be in kabul now?— like to be in kabul now? well, i arrived this _ like to be in kabul now? well, i arrived this morning _ like to be in kabul now? well, i arrived this morning in - like to be in kabul now? well, i arrived this morning in kabul i like to be in kabul now? well, i l arrived this morning in kabul and like to be in kabul now? well, i i arrived this morning in kabul and i have been into the city for the last ten years, in and out, so i know it very well. what i personally see, there was a very chaotic situation in this city, the traffic was jammed, the cars were touching each other and there was no place to go and i could see people in their cars. they had their belongings inside and on the roof racks and they were trying to flee out of kabul. the situation was really unexplainable. like the cars were on both sides of the roads and there was a huge trafficjam and no would
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could get —— no one could get out or in. the people were disappointed and they were uncertain where to go and what is going to happen to us next. obviously it is night now, where you are, i think i can hear helicopters behind you, have you been hearing helicopters in the last few hours? yes. these helicopterflights were like taking place since morning, since i'm here. i could see a lot of choppers around. as well a that, there are gunshots. we can hear that. these are not ordinary rifle gunshots. i could hear heavy guns firing. i don't know if they're fighting or there are no reports from officials what is happening in the city now. from here i have seen like just a few minutes ago there was armed persons on the government
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vehicles and they looked like militants. they were not having taliban flag or any other flags, so we could clearly say they were taliban or not. but i could see they were like wearing normal dresses, like normal al afghans. you were like wearing normal dresses, like normal alafghans._ like normal al afghans. you think that there may _ like normal al afghans. you think that there may be _ like normal al afghans. you think that there may be some - like normal al afghans. you think that there may be some evidence like normal al afghans. you think i that there may be some evidence of taliban fighters coming into the city? taliban fighters coming into the ci ? , , ., ., , city? oh, yes, there are many, because we _ city? oh, yes, there are many, because we are _ city? oh, yes, there are many, because we are getting - city? oh, yes, there are many, - because we are getting unconfirmed reports they are every where in the city centre and they're kind of trying to take a recce, orjust... wandering around and driving around in the city and which i don't know what their aims in the city and which i don't know what theiraims are, in the city and which i don't know what their aims are, but i could see them on the strets. == streets. what their aims are, but i could see them on the strets.. streets.- them on the strets. -- streets. we have seen — them on the strets. -- streets. we have seen reports _ them on the strets. -- streets. we have seen reports that _ them on the strets. -- streets. we have seen reports that the - them on the strets. -- streets. we have seen reports that the taliban | have seen reports that the taliban may have taken the presidential palace, is that something that is
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rumoured or confirmed there? well. rumoured or confirmed there? well, not sure about _ rumoured or confirmed there? well, not sure about the _ rumoured or confirmed there? -ii not sure about the presidential palace take over. there was a green zonein palace take over. there was a green zone in the city, that was the most secure place in kabul city and all of the bases were there and there was a us base and nato force and it was a us base and nato force and it was a us base and nato force and it was a very secure kind of a compound. it was a massive compound. but today those check points were empty, they were unmanned, there was no men to guard the barricades and the doors and they were all abandoned. there was like no one had been there. is it abandoned. there was like no one had been there. , ., ., , been there. is it hard to believe how favrs _ been there. is it hard to believe how favrs things _ been there. is it hard to believe how favrs things have _ been there. is it hard to believe how favrs things have been -- i been there. is it hard to believe i how favrs things have been -- fast how favrs things have been —— fast things have been change something yes, it is. when ever i talk to some local person here, theyjust say that they never thought about it and they have never imagined about it.
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it increases the uncertainty what the do now, because it has been so rapidly change, the whole scenario of the control here. there are reports the president ashraf ghani has left afghanistan and there are other officials have also left. so there is a complete... uncertainty in kabul and there is a complete... uncertainty in kabuland around there is a complete... uncertainty in kabul and around afghanistan. and the most of the communications devices like phones and internet communications are very bad. sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. so it is difficult to confirm things from other sources. and this cable network on television are not working as well. i can and this cable network on television are not working as well.— are not working as well. i can see liuhts are not working as well. i can see lights behind _ are not working as well. i can see lights behind you _ are not working as well. i can see lights behind you and _ are not working as well. i can see lights behind you and i _ are not working as well. i can see lights behind you and i imagine i lights behind you and i imagine there are a lot of people staying at home to stay safe. but tell us there are also people sleeping on the streets, because so many people have arrived in kabulfrom other areas of
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afghanistan? arrived in kabul from other areas of afghanistan?— afghanistan? yes, of course, there are a lot of— afghanistan? yes, of course, there are a lot of internally _ afghanistan? yes, of course, there are a lot of internally displaced i are a lot of internally displaced people in kabul and they're living in ordinary parks and on the roadsides. so i don't know what is going to happen to them, because they arejust there. going to happen to them, because they are just there. helpless. thank they are 'ust there. helpless. thank ou. joining me is another guest. things seem to change fast. what seems to be clear now is it is the taliban that controls kabul?— that controls kabul? yes, the taliban fighters _ that controls kabul? yes, the taliban fighters have - that controls kabul? yes, the taliban fighters have entered| that controls kabul? yes, the i taliban fighters have entered the city. their units have been seen in different parts of the city. but
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kabul is still not... in the whole grip of the taliban. that is why the citizens will have a very anxious night. but it appears that by tomorrow most parts of kabul will be in the taliban control. what in the taliban control. what reaction have _ in the taliban control. what reaction have you _ in the taliban control. what reaction have you seen i in the taliban control. what| reaction have you seen from in the taliban control. what reaction have you seen from afghan citizens on social media to the fact their president has left the country?— their president has left the count ? , , ., ., country? disappointment i mean to sa in one country? disappointment i mean to say in one word. _ country? disappointment i mean to say in one word. disa _ country? disappointment i mean to say in one word. disa appointmentl say in one word. disa appointment and despair. people on social media have expressed their anger and some of the members of the former president's government, i'm calling former president, as he has left kabul now, there is anger... the
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head of the reconciliation council has said that people willjudge him, one of his ministers have said may god curse him for... and also accused him of betraying the country. so there is a lot of anger, but there are people who say that this is because he found himself in isolation. hejust noticed this is because he found himself in isolation. he just noticed that he isolation. he just noticed that he is on his own and so i think that he had no other choice, but to leave quietly. had no other choice, but to leave auietl . . ~ had no other choice, but to leave cuietl. . ~' had no other choice, but to leave cuietl. ., ~ ., had no other choice, but to leave auietl . ., ~ ., ., had no other choice, but to leave cuietl. ., ~ ., ., , quietly. thank you. i want to sheer an emotional. _ rangheena hamidi, education minister in ashraf ghani's government expressed disbelief to the reports that president ghani has left the country.
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i am in shock, disbelief and i did not think that things would happen the way they did. the saddest part is that i did not expect this, i did not expect this from the president that i knew and a president who i trusted fully. somehow in my heart, i do not want to believe that is true that he left, but if he did, it is really a shame. you knew him, you have worked with him, as a minister in his government, and only yesterday he was telling the people the army will be re—mobilised, and now, do you feel betrayed?
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notjust for me, for the entire nation. it is certainly a betrayal. i was asked earlier on bbc radio programme if i was feeling betrayed by the international community, and i did not answer that quite bluntly, because i still wanted to believe that we have leaders or leadership in the country that will take care of us. but if this information is true that president ashraf ghani and his close team left without informing the nation, then yes, it is a betrayal to the whole nation of afghanistan. you're speak as someone who is a role model for many people, you are also there is a citizen and as a mother. what do you think now for your own daughter? yes. the fear that every mother has in afghanistan. the fear that every woman has in afghanistan.
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deep down, in my heart, i keep telling myself to think that i have not done anything bad, and hopefully i won't have to pay the price forjoining a government position. but now i might face consequences that i never even dream of, i guess that is the price that we pay for trying to make this world a little better than when we came to it. and particularly afghanistan. what does it feel like right now because are you having to be worried about a knock on the door? anything is possible. i'm actually sitting in the hallway of the house where there is not
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too many windows close by, just a little earlier, there were lots of gunshots and so i brought my daughter and the other kids living in the house with us, to be a bit safe, but in terms of how safe we are, and how this night, if we remain until the morning, it is very, very difficult to predict if we'll be here until the morning. and there must be so many parents like you in kabul thinking, do we stay inside and shelter? do we try to get out? and then what? exactly. that is the question on everyone's mind. it is the shock. i'm sitting here thinking, the ideas are just floating. i thought the americans had sent 5,000 troops along with the british, along with the canadians, and my question is did these 5,000 plus troops also leave? or at least somebody confirming
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whether this information is true? because all day long, rumours, information have been floating around that it is hard to believe what to believe. and i hope that there is at least some responsible entity and party to at least tell us the truth so that we can deal with our life the way we want to but to keep us in this dark, is the most inhumane thing anybody can do on this earth. us troops, us helicopters have been getting embassy staff out to the airport. the us secretary of state, antony blinken, has said that the mission in afghanistan was a success. what would you say to him if he was there in your hallway now? it was a wonderful game they play for 20 years and i guess, right before the end of 20 years,
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the game is over. and for us afghans, we are the losers, then, we are going to end up paying the price for whatever anybody, both my country's political leaders as well as the international community leaders did in the past 20 years, and i'm now beginning to believe that the disbelief... i'm beginning to believe the rumours that people used to believe that all these political leaders are here for money and power and i kept telling myself that that cannot be true, that i thought and i believe that people still have values, but i think today the entire world proved itself that corrupt government officials end up making corrupt government decisions. the taliban have been, we have been speaking, in the bbc, to a taliban spokesperson at length, who said they will not be violence in kabul and there will not
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be violence against women. there is obviously an attempt by the taliban to tell the outside world that they have changed since the last time, that is. can you take any solace from that? my experience of living here, working here for 18 years and growing old, literally, greying my hair, in this country, i'd like to believe what people say, but honestly, with the experience that we have experienced, particularly today, it is very, very difficult for me to believe anybody�*s words any more. and so i willjust have to wait and see. i really appreciate you talking to us about the situation that you are in and i hear you telling us that most everything you have that almost everything you have believed is falling away from you, that sense ofjust not knowing what you can believe any more.
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if i can add, i grew up in, partly as a refugee kid in pakistan, a0 years ago, and my father and my mother were forced to flee this country at the time of the communist coup, and then we landed in america as i grew up in america, going to school there and i was always taught in school, and in the values of family, that truth and honesty is the virtue to hold onto, and unfortunately, politics in this very short time of politics i have seen, has certainly proved that in the political world, truth and honesty do not matter, so my advice to anybody, if i may not be here on this earth after now, please, tell all young people, if you want to live an honest and a virtuous life, do notjoin politics of any type. a former government minister in the
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afghan government. she doesn't know what will happen to her tonight. it's notjust the us who is evacuating their staff — canada says it is also temporarily closing its embassy in kabul. in a statement, the foreign ministry said that canadian personnel were already on their way back to canada. let's get the view from canada now and speak to the country's former ambassador to afghanistan, chris alexander. he is currently travelling in the city of odense in denmark. we have spoken before, i know how much you care about what is happening in afghanistan and just your thoughts on where we are tonight? your thoughts on where we are toniaht? ~ ~' ., your thoughts on where we are toniaht? ~ ~ ., , .,, tonight? well, i think... for people who... investigated _ tonight? well, i think... for people who... investigated a _ tonight? well, i think... for people who... investigated a great - tonight? well, i think... for people who... investigated a great part i tonight? well, i think... for people who... investigated a great part of| who... investigated a great part of their lives in this mission, it is heart—breaking and to hear... the stories of people who are in their homes, fearing for their lives, we
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have betrayed them. and this is not what those of us who served there signed up for. this is not what those of us who were involved in international agreements concerning afghanistan ever expected to happen. there has been a betrayal at several levels and it needs to be analysed properly and the new situation needs to be understood for what it is. this is notjust the taliban coming to power, this is an internationally recognised terrorist group. they are misogynist. they have a track record of abuse, systematic abuse of the rights of women and girls. they're on record as having committed war crimes. yes, we hope will not be violence in the country, now they have domination of it. but their track record leaves that very much
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open to doubt. so who is responsible? well, yes, the us administrations those who did this deal last year with the taliban that was unsound, joe biden for his... untimely immoral i would withdrawal. but also those on all sides who refused to see the conflict for what it was. the taliban haven'tjust risen out of afghan villages over years. they are an organised force that has been preparing for this moment of invasion for years and their backers are in pakistan. my message is that pakistan's military leadership and the chief of the army staff in pakistan who is responsible for this invasion, he is responsible for this invasion, he is responsible for what happens now and the world should see that clearly. it is not a legal act that they have committed,
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it is an act of aggression, the responsibility is clear and i think all of us should focus on that reality and it is something we have neglected, pakistan's role and something we need to turn around to talking about openly, reporting on, thoroughly, the bbc�*s done quit a job, but much more of this story need to be told. the pakistani ministry has pushed back at you directly and said you are not being truthful about their intentions or involvement in afghanistan. and pakistan is clearly a powerful player now, isn't it, with the news coming that a delegation of afghan elders is not only going to go hard, there are going to pakistan tonight. —— elders
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is not only going to doha, they're going to tonight. is not only going to doha, they're going to tonight-— is not only going to doha, they're going to tonight. they can spew all the rubbish — going to tonight. they can spew all the rubbish they _ going to tonight. they can spew all the rubbish they wish _ going to tonight. they can spew all the rubbish they wish but - going to tonight. they can spew all the rubbish they wish but nobody i the rubbish they wish but nobody doubts the essential role, the foundational role that pakistan's intelligence service played in creating, launching, sustaining the taliban so let's talk about openly. yes, people are in fear in both afghanistan and pakistan when they speak up about it but those of us who have the opportunity to be honest about these things should take this opportunity. we were active on social media in the last two weeks saying the only solution to this situation was to sanction pakistan for these acts of aggression, for this invasion, that was the largest social media trend in afghan history and it won't go away because afghans don't welcome this foreign presence in their country, they are reacting to it,
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under the surface, the same way they reacted to the soviet invasion in 1979 and the international community has to stand with them, this is not a fate afghans have chosen and we owe them a duty of protection especially over the last 20 years. can ijust come back on that because one of the things that antony blinken has said today is that it is “p blinken has said today is that it is up to the afghan people to shape their fates and is a hard up to the afghan people to shape theirfates and is a hard question to ask but what can be done by the outside world if the people of afghanistan are not resisting the taliban? ~ . , , . ., , taliban? with all due respect to his office, taliban? with all due respect to his office. that — taliban? with all due respect to his office, that statement _ taliban? with all due respect to his office, that statement is _ taliban? with all due respect to his office, that statement is absolutely absurd. people cannot shape their fate they might come and afghans could not build solid institutions while they were under attack by irregular formations of the neighbouring country's intelligence service, pakistan has the sixth—largest army at they've been hard at work creating groups that
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have been found out all over afghanistan to take the country over. we need to talk about that if we want to talk about afghans having sovereignty and the ability to choose their own fate. this edition has not been a success, as antony blinken claimed, precisely because the usa and all the other key international partners have refused to talk about this issue. when russia invaded ukraine, there are consequences and sanctions. when the soviet union invaded afghanistan in 1979, there were serious consequences. and pakistan sponsors a group that commits war crimes, systematically violates the rights of women, there is silence which is a double standard, and a mistake, and ourfirst step a double standard, and a mistake, and our first step towards correcting it should be to bring political action and sanctions against those in pakistan sponsoring those. i against those in pakistan sponsoring those. , ., , against those in pakistan sponsoring those. , .,, i. ., those. i will stop you there not
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least because _ those. i will stop you there not least because we _ those. i will stop you there not least because we have - those. i will stop you there not least because we have just i those. i will stop you there notj least because we have just lost those. i will stop you there not i least because we have just lost your vision but thank you for speaking to us, sharing your views from denmark tonight. i'm joined now by mark malloch—brown, president of the open society foundations, on the situation on afghanistan. thanks for being on bbc news. i wonder if you've heard any of what we've been saying about the culpability or otherwise of the international community? well, look, i've known afghanistan _ international community? well, look, i've known afghanistan for— international community? well, look, i've known afghanistan for 30 - international community? well, look, i've known afghanistan for 30 years. i i've known afghanistan for 30 years. i've known afghanistan for 30 years. i helped plan the first un operation after the russians withdrew. i was the first international development leader in after the fall of taliban and led the first effort for reconstruction and time after time the story repeats itself from the international community which simply
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will not unite around building a strong independent afghanistan. and afghans themselves have had so much difficulty both because of that external interference but also because of the geography of the country. it is an extraordinarily divided and tribal place, very mountainous, with lots of suspicions between communities on either side of these mountains and this culmination of the political geography of afghanistan itself and the failure of outsiders to unite on behalf of an independent afghanistan has had a terrible legacy of many invasions not being able to sustain the building of a secular state, etc. i don't know whether it is really worth sharing blame at this point. it's more important to think how do we protect all these extraordinary people who have devoted themselves in recent years
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to build an independent country. let's pick up on that thought because if we are going to be realistic, quite hard—nosed about the situation, afghanistan is in now, how do you protect people? do you tie foreign aid explicitly to the protection of certain group is? you have to do two things. firstly, a lot of people have to be gotten out of there quickly and we had many grandees they're all working in the human rights and democracy space and women's rights spaces. and our staff, those of our partners, a lot of them are at risk and need to get them out in the us government needs to end the uk government needs to support that effort. secondly, for those who have stayed, which is the great majority of afghans, yes, our development assistance needs to be tied to trying to protect what we have begun under those afghan
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leaders, building women's organisations, building a schools system which had girls in it in equal numbers as boys, of building a legal system, and assistance must be continued to be tied to achieving those objectives. find continued to be tied to achieving those objectives.— continued to be tied to achieving those objectives. those ob'ectives. and that would then those objectives. and that would then imply _ those objectives. and that would then imply walking _ those objectives. and that would then imply walking away - those objectives. and that would then imply walking away if i those objectives. and that would then imply walking away if those j then imply walking away if those things disappear, if girls aren't allowed into school, if society goes backwards, in the eyes of the us, the uk and other allies. i backwards, in the eyes of the us, the uk and other allies.— the uk and other allies. i think there will— the uk and other allies. i think there will always _ the uk and other allies. i think there will always be _ the uk and other allies. i think there will always be and i the uk and other allies. i think| there will always be and should the uk and other allies. i think i there will always be and should be humanitarian assistance to make sure that people don't go hungry and starve and they are not paying the price, and of a government they haven't chosen but which has arrived via the barrel of a gun. broader development assistance will indeed depend on a taliban led government showing varied different colours to
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the one that fell 20 years ago. you know, this is a different afghanistan, it is urbanised with a bigger middle class, and if this government seeks to reverse that, it won't get international donor support. if, on the other hand, it allows these gains to remain in place, and already, as you've reported, the signals that are mixed and broadly i'm sorry to say negative, then i don't think, if they don't allow it, we won't be able to continue or if the support goes on, it'll go directly to groups and not through the government. you sa it is a and not through the government. you say it is a different afghanistan and we have been hearing a lot about that today from people with a stake in the future they thought they had. but only some of it is a different afghanistan. there must be large swathes of people welcoming like etamivan stand for or they wouldn't
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have advanced so swiftly and successfully. i have advanced so swiftly and successfully.— have advanced so swiftly and successfully. i think the other feature of _ successfully. i think the other feature of the _ successfully. i think the other feature of the political i successfully. i think the other i feature of the political geography is really the extraordinary gap between city and country, a countryside which is in many ways highly conservative, and not with great access to much educational opportunity, etc, versus the cities which have seen a dramatic degree of modernisation over 20 years. what i suspect this in many ways shows is a country take over of urban afghanistan. ultimately, governments do need the support and acceptance of urban groups as much as rural ones to sustain their power. so, i don't think we have seen the end of this. i think we will see a government which is forced probably to come to terms with many elements outside the taliban, warlords
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certainly but also politicians in urban areas, which will similarly have to compromise on its ideological objectives in order to secure that support. it is all very tenuous, and it is unclear whether that will happen, which is why we also need to focus strongly on support to those who are forced to flee and leave, whether it is the airlift of people out now, whether it is support to neighbouring countries, that people cross borders into refugee situations and it means the uk, the us and other governments to show real generosity, notjust to take the vital and important group of interpreters but the much wider group of afghans who will be compromised by the organisations they work for, for the values they stood up for in recent years. and i might add... stood up for in recent years. and i
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might add- - -_ might add... exactly what you are sa in: , might add... exactly what you are saying. when _ might add... exactly what you are saying. when you _ might add... exactly what you are saying, when you talk _ might add... exactly what you are saying, when you talk about i saying, when you talk about generosity and governments like the british government being prepared to take more refugees, that could be politically a hard sell when there is also... fear or concerns about refugees trying to get in on it across the uk's board is now. it is politically difficult and would require some political courage, wouldn't it? it require some political courage, wouldn't it?— wouldn't it? it would require olitical wouldn't it? it would require political courage _ wouldn't it? it would require political courage but - wouldn't it? it would require political courage but it i wouldn't it? it would require political courage but it also i political courage but it also requires a recognition of legacy and responsibilities. these are individuals who stood up as leaders individuals who stood up as leaders in afghanistan because they felt the country had been guaranteed and secured a democratic future and it was the word of british politicians. i was with a british minister at one time responsible for afghanistan, and it is our words now we have to
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honour, and we havejust launched, given $10 million to establish a fund to support refugee asylum, to broaden the numbers able to reach the us, uk or to get to third countries while they await axis and asylum in the us, uk and canada and elsewhere, and i hope any others willjoin us in that effort so that the british people see they are not meeting the cost alone. just to say, britain has always made it clear that while it does not want illegal immigration across the channel, it has been willing to accept legal, regularised refugee flows. it is a very proud bit of britain's is true that it was one of the earliest countries to provide asylum to political refugees and it would be terrible if we betrayed that tradition and history now. thank you ve much tradition and history now. thank you very much for— tradition and history now. thank you very much forjoining _ tradition and history now. thank you
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very much forjoining us. _ tradition and history now. thank you very much forjoining us. it - tradition and history now. thank you very much forjoining us. it is i tradition and history now. thank you very much forjoining us. it is a i very much forjoining us. it is a good time to look at how boris johnson is framing our priorities. the uk prime minister boris johnson has been speaking after the conclusion of an emergency cobra meeting. let's listen to what he had to say. we need to make sure we deliver our obligations to uk nationals, all of those that have helped the british effort in afghanistan over 20 years, and to get them out as fast as we can. so, the ambassador is working around the clock. he has been there at the airport to help process the applications. as you know, about 2000 afghans have left and come to this country under our resettlement scheme. and we will get as many as we can out in the next few days. but this situation remains difficult and it is clear that there is going to
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be or there are going to be shortly a new government in kabul, or a new political dispensation, however you want to put it. and it's very important that the west collectively should work together, to get over to that new government, be it by the taliban or anybody else that nobody wants afghanistan to be once again a breeding ground for terror and we don't think it is in the interest of the people of afghanistan that it should lapse back into that pre—2001 state. so, what the uk will be doing is we're working with our partners with the un security council, to get... with nato, with the council on friday, to get the message over.
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we don't want anybody bilaterally recognising the taliban. we want a united position, as far as we can get one, so we do whatever we can to prevent afghanistan lapsing back into being a breeding ground for terror. �* ., , into being a breeding ground for terror. 1, _ ., into being a breeding ground for terror. ., terror. boris johnson acknowledging there is going _ terror. boris johnson acknowledging there is going to _ terror. boris johnson acknowledging there is going to be _ terror. boris johnson acknowledging there is going to be a _ terror. boris johnson acknowledging there is going to be a new _ there is going to be a new government in afghanistan very soon. my colleague yalda hakim spoke earlier to taliban spokesman suhail shaheen who is in doha where peace negotiations have been taking place. their properties, their lives are safe, there will be no restraint on anything. we are the servants of the people and of this country. our leadership had instructed ourforces to remain at the gate of kabul, not to enter the city, we are awaiting a peaceful transfer of power. when you say peaceful transfer
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of power, what do you mean? what is actually likely to happen? it means that the city and the power should be handed over to the islamic emirate of afghanistan and then we will have an afghan inclusion, islamic government, in which all afghans will have participation. when you say participation, do you mean one vote, one person? what do you mean by participation? participation means that we will have, in the government, other afghans, they will be a part in the future government. but it will fall under the umbrella of the government of the taliban?
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the islamic emirate, as you describe it? yes, there will be, as i said, an afghan inclusion, islamic government. will there be a delegation going to doha tomorrow to meet with mullah baradar? because there are a lot of rumours that he has arrived in kabul and the current president, ashraf ghani has handed power over to him. can you give our viewers some clarity on that, please? mullah baradar is here in doha, he has not gone to kabul, these are just rumours. there is also a lot of concern from women in afghanistan, in kabul, they have been writing to me, they have been texting me, they are concerned that you will reimpose the regime of the 90s back in afghanistan, where women could not go to school, where the girls could not go
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to school, they could not work. can you give us some clarity on what your plans for that? we have taken already many...of the country, and also, many provinces of the country. there are hundreds of schools for girls in the west. there, the girl students are studying. they are there, there is no sanction on them, they are continuing their studies and they are going to schools, they were going in the past. in herat, for example, women are telling me that when they arrived at the gates of the university yesterday, taliban fighters told them to leave and that there would be instructions about whether they could attend university or not. that is what the fighters on the ground are telling
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the women of herat. what i'm telling is the policy, the policy is that women can have access to education and to work and of course, they will observe the hijab, that is it. when you say, the hijab, do you mean a headscarf on the head or a burqa covering theirface? no, burqa is not the only hijab, there are many types. one of them you can change. there's a lot of talk about the disconnect between what is happening in doha with the political office and what your fighters are doing on the ground. so, you said to me the policy as girls can go to school but in herat, girls and women are being pushed out of school so are your fighters listening to you? yes. pushed out of school so are your fighters listening to you? yes, they are listening _ fighters listening to you? yes, they are listening to _ fighters listening to you? yes, they
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are listening to us. _ fighters listening to you? yes, they are listening to us. there _ fighters listening to you? yes, they are listening to us. there has i fighters listening to you? yes, they are listening to us. there has been| are listening to us. there has been an individual case, that will be investigated. all have to abide. brute investigated. all have to abide. we are hearing reports taliban fighters are hearing reports taliban fighters are going house to house and terrorising people who worked for western forces or are in any way affiliated with western institutions.— affiliated with western institutions. ., ., �*, ., institutions. no, that's not true. i already sent _ institutions. no, that's not true. i already sent to _ institutions. no, that's not true. i already sent to our— institutions. no, that's not true. i already sent to our statement i institutions. no, that's not true. i i already sent to our statement which reflects our policy. there are a lot of rumours and fake reports by our opponents in order to malign us. will women be allowed to leave their homes alone?— homes alone? sure. the laws, the
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islamic laws... _ homes alone? sure. the laws, the islamic laws... in _ homes alone? sure. the laws, the islamic laws... in the _ homes alone? sure. the laws, the islamic laws... in the past, i homes alone? sure. the laws, the| islamic laws... in the past, women were walking... islamic laws... in the past, women were walking. . ._ were walking... they were not allowed to _ were walking... they were not allowed to leave _ were walking... they were not allowed to leave their - were walking... they were not allowed to leave their homes i allowed to leave their homes without... they were not allowed to leave their homes. without. .. they were not allowed to leave their homes.— leave their homes. they will have a male accompanying _ leave their homes. they will have a male accompanying them, - leave their homes. they will have a male accompanying them, that's i leave their homes. they will have a i male accompanying them, that's not the case. they were walking in the streets, you have seen that. the women we _ streets, you have seen that. the women we have _ streets, you have seen that. the women we have spoken to have said that if they left their house without a male accompanying them, someone who is either their brother, father or husband, they would be beaten by taliban religious police. no, no, that was not the case, and it will not be the case. in no, no, that was not the case, and it will not be the case.— it will not be the case. in your view, it will not be the case. in your view. do _ it will not be the case. in your view. do you _ it will not be the case. in your view, do you want _ it will not be the case. in your view, do you want to - it will not be the case. in your| view, do you want to reimpose it will not be the case. in your i view, do you want to reimpose the sort of government you had in the 905? , , , ., . 905? first, it will be in islamic government- _ 905? first, it will be in islamic government. we _ 905? first, it will be in islamic government. we have - 905? first, it will be in islamic government. we have fought i 905? first, it will be in islamic i government. we have fought for 90s? first, it will be in islamic - government. we have fought for the
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case. that is one thing clear. secondly, if there was any shortcoming, any grievance of the people, that will be seen, revealed, and any fault or shortcoming, that will be reformed and corrected so that there is no grievances on the afghan people. in that there is no grievances on the afghan maple-— afghan people. in terms of the media, afghan people. in terms of the media. are _ afghan people. in terms of the media, are people _ afghan people. in terms of the media, are people allowed... i afghan people. in terms of the | media, are people allowed... is afghan people. in terms of the - media, are people allowed... is the press allowed to operate freely in the country? we are also hearing reports that in certain places where the taliban now control, they are only allowing for sharia news to be broadcast. i only allowing for sharia news to be broadcast. .. , , broadcast. i think it is very important _ broadcast. i think it is very important that _ broadcast. i think it is very important that an - broadcast. i think it is very important that an islamic i important that an islamic government, there will be a free media to criticise anyone. they
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should avoid character assassination. society has freedom of speech in light of islamic law. can you paint a picture of what the next few days will look like for the people of afghanistan and the people in kabul? can they go to their workplaces? the banks have shut down, people are trying to take money out of the banks. can you help us understand what the next few days will look like? i us understand what the next few days will look like?— will look like? i hope it will be a new chapter. — will look like? i hope it will be a new chapter, of _ will look like? i hope it will be a new chapter, of peace, - will look like? i hope it will be a new chapter, of peace, and - will look like? i hope it will be ai new chapter, of peace, and free will look like? i hope it will be a i new chapter, of peace, and free of war, because in the past, every day, there were tens of people all over afghanistan killed because of fighting. and when there is a peaceful transfer of power are taking place, i hope there will be a
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new chapter of peace, of people feeling safe, and they can lead their lives normally. 50. feeling safe, and they can lead their lives normally.— feeling safe, and they can lead their lives normally. so, can women no back to their lives normally. so, can women go back to school _ their lives normally. so, can women go back to school and _ their lives normally. so, can women go back to school and the _ their lives normally. so, can women go back to school and the workplace tomorrow? right now we are seeing trafficjams in kabul, people trying to leave the country, people queueing up at banks trying to get access to their money. what will the next few days look like? can they work and go to school?— next few days look like? can they work and go to school? yes, they can no. we work and go to school? yes, they can go- we call— work and go to school? yes, they can go- we call on _ work and go to school? yes, they can go. we call on the _ work and go to school? yes, they can go. we call on the people _ work and go to school? yes, they can go. we call on the people to - work and go to school? yes, they can go. we call on the people to stay - work and go to school? yes, they can go. we call on the people to stay in l go. we call on the people to stay in their homes and the city. they should not go and they should not have worries. there are rumours. they will have opportunity, occupation and work and they can continue their work as they were continuing it in the past. we have
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already issued a statement in this regard. already issued a statement in this reaard. ~ ., , l, regard. when will the transfer of ower regard. when will the transfer of power take _ regard. when will the transfer of power take place? _ regard. when will the transfer of power take place? so, _ regard. when will the transfer of power take place? so, we - regard. when will the transfer of power take place? so, we will. regard. when will the transfer of i power take place? so, we will see. so, we power take place? so, we will see. so. we will — power take place? so, we will see. so, we will want _ power take place? so, we will see. so, we will want to _ power take place? so, we will see. so, we will want to have _ power take place? so, we will see. so, we will want to have talks - power take place? so, we will see. | so, we will want to have talks about that to achieve that as soon as possible. hello, warmth and sunshine does not feature very much in the forecast for the week ahead, certainly a cool start to the new week as we pick up a north—westerly wind. with a north—westerly wind. the north—westerly wind it'i be with the north—westerly wind it'll be feeling cooler particularly for the first half of the week. this is the first half of the week. this is the bigger picture at the moment, through sunday have been seen slow—moving fronts pushing across the uk bringing cloud, outbreaks of rain into northern england, wales, south—west england and some heavy showers for northern scotland and we keep those going through this evening. for others, a glorious sunday with blue skies and sunshine
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so mixed fortunes. let's come back to this evening and we will see those showers continuing to slide their way across scotland but much of the rain across england and wales is as those showers move into north—east england through the early hours to clear skies across eastern side of scotland with temperatures down to six or seven celsius and elsewhere 12—ill. so, here is how we start the new week. our area from the low pressure is now pushing on to scandinavia with high pressure trying to build from the west means a squeeze in the isobars and a north—westerly wind so it means feeling cooler for all of us through monday. quite a lot of cloud as well with one or two showers, most dry com best chance of seeing some sunshine will be across eastern counties of scotland and england but look at the temperatures. 23—24 in places across sunday, more like 18-20 places across sunday, more like 18—20 on monday and rain arriving into the west of scotland slowly
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sliding across scotland, clipping northern ireland in two parts of england and down the east coast as we head through the early hours of tuesday and a similar pressure set “p tuesday and a similar pressure set up on tuesday with this air of low pressure to the east of us, high pressure to the east of us, high pressure to the rest maintaining that north—westerly airflow. start to the day across east anglia and south—east england with outbreaks of rain which pulls away but in its wake, a lot of cloud with one or two showers and once the morning rain has gone from the east and south—east it should be many dry if rather cloudy with highs of 16—20. it is a cloudy picture in the week ahead, most will be dry with small amounts of rain, medical start of the week, warmer later but with the chance of some showers at the weekend. by mike. —— bye—bye.
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this is bbc news. our main story: the rush to leave kabul as taliban fighters enter the capital. president ashraf ghani has fled the country. the taliban say they want to prevent looting in kabul. there are reports of shooting in the city. the militants have rolled through the entire country in a matter of weeks. a spokesman says women will be safe if they wear the hijab. the be safe if they wear the hi'ab. the oli is be safe if they wear the hi'ab. the policy is that i be safe if they wear the hijab. tue: policy is that women be safe if they wear the hijab. tte: policy is that women can be safe if they wear the hijab. tt2 policy is that women can have access to education and to work and of course they will observe the hijab, thatis course they will observe the hijab, that is it. course they will observe the hi'ab, that is it. _, , , , ,, that is it. helicopters ferry us diplomats _ that is it. helicopters ferry us
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diplomats from _ that is it. helicopters ferry us diplomats from their - that is it. helicopters ferry us| diplomats from their embassy, that is it. helicopters ferry us - diplomats from their embassy, the us secretary of state said the operation there was a success. tt

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