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tv   HAR Dtalk  BBC News  September 30, 2021 4:30am-5:01am BST

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the headlines. ajudge in la has removed britney spears�*s father from the legal arrangements that gave him control of her finances after the american pop star accused him of years of abuse. the judge said it was in the singer's best interest that legal arrangements should end. the 100 prisoners and guards have been killed in ecuador�*s deadliest ever prison riot. the police said there is —— right in the city of guayaquil is due to gangs and drug trafficking organisations. the police officer who raped and murdered the british woman sarah everard is facing a full life sentence. a court in london was given details of how wayne cousins kidnapped her in march using handcuffs and an id card to falsely arrest her. those are the headlines.
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now it is time for hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk. the crisis over a lack of supplies in the uk triggered by a shortage of truck drivers has reignited the debate about the consequences of brexit. this comes on top of concerns about the impact on trade between great britain and northern ireland and what it means for the historic peace agreement there. my guest is michel barnier, who was the eu's chief brexit negotiator and has declared himself a centre—right candidate for the presidential elections in france next year. how does he see the fallout from brexit, and why does he think he is fit to be the next president of france?
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michel barnier, welcome to hardtalk. happy to be here. thank you for your invitation. so, as you know, the uk is experiencing issues that have led to a shortage of goods, such as fuel, because of panic buying and the lack of truck drivers. to what extent do you think this is a consequence of brexit? partly, it's a consequence of brexit but, to be frank, i don't want to give any lessons to the british government. if you look at this crisis shortage, there is obviously many reasons. firstly, the consequence of the risk of covid,
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to be frank, everywhere. the price of energy everywhere. the shortage about the raw materials everywhere. and, in addition, obviously the mechanic and automatic consequences of the brexit, because the brexit means leaving the eu, leaving the single market, leaving the custom union. it's very serious. yeah... that means the end of the freedom of movement for the truck drivers. all right. that means so many, many new buyers which are direct consequences of brexit. for example, the control for each good entering the uk. ok, but you know that there are european leaders who cannot resist saying to the united kingdom, "this is because of brexit." the german spd leader and the likely new chancellor in germany, olaf scholz, says, "the free movement of labour is part of the european union. "we worked hard to convince the british "not to leave the european union.
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"they decided differently, and i hope they "will manage the problems coming from that." pleasure to answer to your questions, but i managed the negotiation for four years, and there was never any kind of spirit of revenge, any kind of spirit of punishment. i have a lot of respect for the uk. but i don't want to make any politics. objectively, mechanically, i always said during these four years at each and every press point in london or in brussels that that brexit has so many consequences. generally underestimated. generally, they were badly explained to the british people. and one of these consequences is the end of the freedom of movement decided by the british government and the rebuilding of control for all the extensions. you say you don't want to speak in punishing terms about the british, but in your new book, my secret brexit diary —
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you were writing every day — in this book, you explain how the uk's early problem was to underestimate the legal complexity of this divorce. and you say that the current team is not up to the challenges of brexit, nor to the responsibility that is theirs. that's not very complimentary, is it, mr barnier? no, it's the truth. ijust said the truth — ijust made this point a few seconds before in my previous answer. there are so many consequences, and serious consequences, of brexit. and underestimated and very badly explained. just let me recall that leaving the eu means leaving 600 international agreements. all the european policies. that it is very complex. and i think that the preparation wasn't at the right level.
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you went on — "the current team" — ie, the british government — "is not up to the challenges. "i simply don't trust them." no, on a specific point, i lose my trust because of what the uk government tried to do against the protocol in ireland. because in ireland, what is at stake is not a question of goods or trade or technical matters — it's about peace, about the people. i remember clearly my meeting with a group of women in dunganon, south of londonderry, a few years ago. it was very moving. it was a private meeting. these women gave me a kind of mandate — "please, mr barnier, do everything you can to avoid "the repetition that we come back "again to the war, to the troubles." the peace is fragile in ireland. so i think that everybody must be responsible. we are working a lot with mrjohnson — not against him,
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not without him — to negotiate this protocol. and now, we have to keep calm to find the right solution to de—dramatise the checks and controls, to de—dramatise, and to implement this protocol. because there's the northern ireland protocol, of course, wanting to avoid a hard border between northern ireland and the republic of ireland, which is part of the european union, but also... for peace, no border. ..but also between great britain and northern ireland — the british government doesn't want a hard border either. you talk about how this could compromise peace. george eustice, a cabinet minister here, said, "unless we have a sustainable solution that enables trade "to continue between great britain "and northern ireland, "then we are going to have issues — and that itself "would become a challenge "to the good friday peace agreement." but i'm surprised by this kind of sentence, because there is no surprise. this protocol has very precisely been negotiated by mrjohnson himself,
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by his government, by the civil servants. there is no surprise. we know this situation is complex. now, we have to keep calm. we are already, on the european side — i'm no longer in charge — we are ready to find operational solutions to discuss this solution in the framework of the protocol. but there will be no renegotiation. i was going to say — operational discussions but, as you know, the uk brexit minister, david frost, has said, "i urge the european union to think again and consider "to reach agreement with us so that we "can put in place something that will last." i see david frost as someone taking a huge responsibility vis—a—vis the peace in ireland, because they negotiate themselves this protocol. there is no surprise. in good faith, we asked them to respect the signature of the uk, to be careful about the reputation of the uk,
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to be careful about the peace in ireland. and we are ready to find operational and technical solutions, for example, for the medicines. but no rewriting? no renegotiation. but a treaty was negotiated less than two years ago. in your diaries, you also say the uk would try to renegotiate with the european union through the window, the single market, whose door has slammed shut. so you think that somehow obviously not rejoining the eu, but they'll try to get through the window? it's kind of compliment to the professionals of the uk negotiator to try to get the best of two worlds. but it was impossible. my mandate was very clear — to protect the integrity of the single market. the single market, madam, is our best asset. the main reason why the americans on one side, the chinese on the other side, respect the europeans is the single market, because the single market is much more than a free trade area.
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it is a kind of ecosystem with the same norms, the same regulations and supervisions and jurisdictions for 100 million people and 22 million businesses. so this is the key point of my negotiation, my mandate, to protect the single market. all right. you've made your point. let me recall that the uk left the eu, not the contrary. 0k. there you are now here — you're leaving that behind you, to some extent, and you're a candidate seeking the nomination of the centre—right republican party in france to stand in the elections in april next year against emmanuel macron. and, you know, in all the kind of debates that are going on in france and so on, you are warning that other states, as you say, would follow the uk and leave the european union unless it reformed its immigration rules. you say, "if nothing changes, there will be other brexits." the french mp, natalie louaszo, has said, "have you spent too much time
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with borisjohnson?" i've spent lots of time with borisjohnson, and i've understood why 52% of people voted against brexit. my defence with some of these people is i don't want another brexit as well. which other brexits might there be that you're warning about? let me be precise. the brexiters spoke and wanted to exit the eu. it's not my case, obviously. they wanted to end the freedom of movement inside europe. i wanted to protect it. you're saying if nothing changes, there will be other brexits. which other brexits? on that point, i am speaking clearly about the migration coming from abroad. yes. a third country. not from the eu itself. there is no point of benchmarking or comparison between the brexit and me — i have nothing to do with these people. and i wantjust to tackle the problem and the anger
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and the feeling and the asking of my people and my country. one point is that migration policy does not work in france or in europe, so we have to change this policy. i understand you're talking about economic migrants coming into the european union from outside the eu. correct. and you want that number of economic migrants permitted to enter france to be something that the french parliament sets the quotas on. but the point i'm making is you're saying unless the eu does something on this, there'll be other brexits. so, what made you say that? which other countries — frexit, maybe? france? my responsibility is to draw the lessons of the brexit, which is not a small event — it is a very historical and serious event. and we have to take into account the social anger, also — the popularfeeling. don't confuse the popular feeling and the populism. we have to insert reason into... you won't answer my question as to which other countries, which other states might follow suit?
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there is something which was unlikely, and brexit was unlikely, even for the brexiters. but it happened. so be careful and change what needs to be changed to avoid new brexits. all right. as part of your campaign to get the nomination for the republican party, which will be decided in december, you'll say you want a referendum. and one of the questions asked would be to see if the european court ofjustice could be suspended over this issue of migration. and the anti—eu politician in the uk, nigel farage, has called you "the biggest hypocrite ever born" because you state that, "france's sovereignty has been impinged on "by the european court ofjustice," and that was a central argument of the brexiteers, mr barnier. frankly speaking, i have nothing to do with mr farage, and i was never impressed during four years by his permanent attacks and politics. i've certainly not been impressed now, after the negotiations. so i have nothing to do with this guy.
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he is an extremist from the far right. iam european, definitely a patriot and european. i want to change what needs to be changed, including in the french constitution where we can find new word on migration. so we have to consider the people of france, and we will do that. 0k. i'm sure nigel farage would not necessarily describe himself as "far—right". he's a brexiteer, anti—eu. but the point that i want to make to you, which is... can you just... a different messenger, then. let me just say to you — how do you reconcile the fact that you are calling for a suspension of the right of the european court ofjustice to challenge the french government on setting the number of migrants it wants to come into the country? that was a central plank of the brexiteers. let me recall one point. the migration policy coming from abroad is a shared policy in france between the eu and between member states.
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we need in our constitution to put in the words we are missing today about migration. let me just recall one point about this guy, mr farage — once again, an extremist from the far right, in my view. when i met him, he requested a meeting with me in my office in brussels. i asked him a question: "mr farage, how do you see the iteration of the eu and the uk after brexit?" his answer was very clear: "mr barnier, after brexit, the eu will no longer exist." that is the reason why i have nothing to do with mr farage. nothing. all right. just looking at your candidacy — there are others who are ahead of you in the polls. the favourite is xavier berton. you've been absent from french politics for a long time. you were last minister of agriculture in 2009. it's going to be a huge difficulty for you, isn't it, to resonate with the french public? it's very stimulating to have such margin of progress. i am progressing every day in the polls. i think i'm able to build the unity of
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my party, between several good candidates, and to run for the centre—right and for the republicans to win this election. this is the point. this is exactly the goal and the aim of the debate, of an election. as a presidential candidate, you're dealing with lots of major issues. one of them, of course, is that aukus deal — the defence alliance between the united states, uk and australia. it resulted in the cancellation of a 50 billion euro contract for the french to supply diesel submarines to the australians. howjustified was the huge anger in france over the cancellation of the contract, and over the aukus deal? it was an anger, justified anger, against the lack of trust, because this contract had been cancelled without any kind of prior consultation and prior discussion between allies. and my thinking, as a former french foreign minister, as a french
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politician, is that, between allies, we need more consideration and respect, and it was not the case between the united states of america, between the uk government, and the australian government. and it is serious, because we have so many challenges to face in the next decades, in the next few years, that we need a strong alliance. i think this trust has been fragilised by the us and by the uk government. it is serious, and they have to rebuild this trust between us. how long do you think that will take? peter ricketts, a former british ambassador to france, says you cannot finish this in the short—term — this is one of those occasions when the french remember. how long do you think it will take to rebuild that trust? i think for a long time that an alliance does not mean allegiance. an alliance needs trust and confidence. so, we will keep calm. france has expressed
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its position on this lack of trust and the very, very bad behaviour of our allies. and i think we have to discuss and to keep calm, and perhaps also to build a stronger way of european autonomy on defence. what is clear is that what we do not do for ourselves, nobody will come to do that in our place. that's what president macron is saying — he's saying now that the europeans must stop being naive and that we need to react and show we have the power and capacity to defend ourselves. so you're agreeing with president macron on this particular point? both sides. all right. there's a difference of view there, because within the european union, people like the us—european alliance. but i like the us—european alliance. but an alliance is not an allegiance. it sounds like what you're saying is — like president
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macron — that the europeans should increase their own military capacity, and that... not against nato. i think that a strong nato needs two legs. the american one and the european one. that's not the case for the moment. you've got some people on one side of the argument like andreas mikaelis, german ambassador to the uk, saying the aukus partnership threatened the coherence and unity of the west. then you've got people like shal michele, saying the tra ns—atla ntic alliance between the eu and the us is paramount for security in the world. "we have never put it into question in europe." there's a slight differing of tone, isn't there, within the eu now? no. the quote of shal michele is correct. this alliance is necessary, including to face the new challenges in the world, including to face the terrorism in the world. precisely because we need this alliance, we need trust
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between us, and we need a balance and shared discussion between us, which is not the case today. so the two codes are correct, in my view. in terms of the impact of the aukus deal on british—french bilateral relations, what do you think that will be? because we've had boris johnson say to president macron, "plene en grep" — "get a grip on things" — and that the french has nothing to worry about, but the french have been very dismissive of the british, saying they're irrelevant in this deal, the fifth wheel in the carriage. i don't want to answer to the provocation of the politics of mrjohnson, frankly speaking. i think the situation is much more serious because of the respect of the treaty and alliance and peace, which is our concern.
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because what could happen, which is serious also — once again, the british does not respect their signature on their agreement on brexit forfisheries. because of this aukus crisis, i think the situation is serious. looking at what could happen in the next five years, if i am the french president, i would try to always think about the future and the necessity of good co—operation between us, and not to sacrifice this future to the present. in the present situation, i think the uk government has to be very careful. do you think that the tensions between the uk and france — you mentioned the fisheries, fishing, because we're seeing tensions over fishing rights for french boats — and the uk is rejecting more than 80% of application by french boats to fish in british coastal waters. we've also got pressures on the policing of migrants trying to enter the uk across the english channel from
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france. do you think that we're going to see these kinds of tensions getting worse? there is a risk. and it is why i call for the spirit of civility on both sides, particularly the uk side, because in that case of fisheries, it can cause huge tensions. i know quite well this agreement. we have negotiated until the last day, the last year, the day of christmas, with the uk, very precisely. and we just ask the uk to respect what is written in this treaty — no more. the uk home secretary has approved this policy of france — boats carrying migrants back to the uk. the french say this breaks maritime law and accuses the uk of blackmail, and the uk has said to france it will pay you 60 million euro if you increase your patrols to intercept more
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boats. and so the uk's really not left with much choice but to be tough. the french are not being fair here, are they? they're just allowing the migrants to come in. you speak about a very serious problem, which is migration across the channel. we have this question of fisheries. there are so many points where we need to keep calm and to respect what has been written in the treaty and to be careful about the future. because if you look at — let me just say what i think personally. we have to face climate change together. we have to face the fight against terrorism together. we have to fight against poverty in africa and migrations. we have to fight against the risk of financial instability — a new financial crisis. i have been the commissioner in charge of the financial crisis and the new regulations in the crisis in 2010.
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we have to look at this future and this necessary co—operation between us, between uk and the eu, and the uk and france, and to try where it's possible to solve the current point of negotiations and the point of the crisis. so, some insights there into — if you were to ever become president of france, the kind of bilateral relations you would pursue there between the united kingdom and france? i always add in my mind during these four years of negotiations described in this book three points: defend the integrity of the single market. no cherry picking — the uk had to suffer the consequences of brexit everywhere — it was its decision. two — the peace in ireland. 3 — the spirit of co—operation for the future. michel barnier, thank you very much for coming on hardtalk.
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thank you. thank you very much. thank you. hello there. after what was a mostly dry and clear end to wednesday for most of us, the weather steps up a gear through thursday and into the weekend. with spells of rain, some strong winds, some drier, brighter interludes in between, but the culprit — no prizes for guessing — is low pressure. and this frontal system pushing in from the west is going to bring rain for many of us through the day ahead, with some quite brisk winds as well, particularly in western areas. gusts across western scotland for a time in excess of 50mph. through the day, we will see cloud, we will see outbreaks of showery rain on and off with some drier interludes. best chance of any sunshine across northeast scotland and maybe for a time in the far
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southeast of england. those are the average wind speeds through the afternoon. gusts will be stronger than that. temperatures ranging from 13 degrees in aberdeen to 17 in cardiff and in plymouth. now, through thursday night, we will see more cloud, more showery rain, and then through the early hours of friday, it looks like we'll have a band of really heavy rain and potentially some quite squally winds that will start to work eastwards, but a much milder night in prospect, with temperatures for many places staying in double digits. so this band of heavy rain and strong winds will cross east anglia and the southeast through friday morning. behind that, england and wales will see some sunshine, but scotland and northern ireland seeing further outbreaks of rain, very windy, with gusts in excess of 50mph across parts of scotland particularly, and temperatures between 13 and 17 degrees. and then we get to the weekend and this frontal system running in from the west could spell trouble, could spell disruption for some, bringing some very heavy rain and then potentially spinning into a really deep area of low pressure drifting northwards across the uk, with the risk of gales, perhaps most
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especially across scotland, and heavy rain affecting most areas at times. so saturday may start off dry for many of us, but it looks like we'll see some really very heavy and persistent rain working in from the southwest, maybe northern scotland staying just about dry. the winds picking up as well. and then through saturday night, that's when we're expecting an area of low pressure to develop. the detail may change between now and then, but we could see a bout of very strong winds drifting across scotland, some rain continuing here into sunday. sunshine and heavy showers further south and top temperatures to end the weekend between 12 and 17 degrees.
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hello. this is bbc news. we have the latest headlines for the viewers in the uk and around the world. a major victory for britney spears as an la judge suspends her father from his position as control of her business affairs. it is a great day for britney spears and it is a great day for justice. and there is definitely something to celebrate. over 100 prisoners and guards are killed in ecuador�*s deadliest ever prison riot as rival gangs fight for control of a compound. anger boils over among french politicians as french teachers service over fishing rights of
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the uk and jersey coasts.


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