tv Charlie Rose Bloomberg August 8, 2016 10:00pm-11:01pm EDT
>> from our studios in new york city, this is "charlie rose." charlie: he is a staff writer for the new yorker, a senior legal analyst at cnn. he writes books. his new book is called "american heiress." in an age of terrorism, the chronicle how she morphed into a gun toting revolutionary, a definite fascination. i'm least to have jeffrey toobin at this table. welcome.
what is a between you and writing these books about big murders. you try to carve out the interest there. stories not told. mr. toobin: you ascribe a logic and plan to my career that doesn't exist. i covered the o.j. simpson case in real time and wrote a book about it. 20 years later they made the wonderful miniseries. there is a big gap there. in the meantime, i wrote two books about the supreme court, a book about the recount in florida and the clinton scandal. they are legally related but i have to say, this is the first book i have written at the border between journalism and history. most of the people were still
alive. it was enough in the past that i was writing about not current events. charlie: and the patty hearst case, who was accessible and not accessible? mr. toobin: patty hearst was not accessible and she didn't want to talk about it which i completely understand. unfortunately, bernie shaw, her former bodyguard who she married died in 2013. she is a widow, a grandmother, very involved in raising show dog. charlie: champion show dogs. mr. toobin: rocket, her winning dog. she sort of moved on. one of the many remarkable things about this story is she has led the life that she was destined for anyway. and that does not include talking about her life as tonya.
at the other part of it, which is a little more -- it has a little more edge from my perspective. she has given many interviews over the years and speaks to people who know not a lot about the facts of the case. there are parts she doesn't want to talk about. charlie: like what part? mr. toobin: mel's sporting-goods. she is kidnapped in february of 74, they rob the bank in april of 74. may 16, 1974, they flee to los angeles. there are nine of them. eight members and patricia. six of them stand the house. three of them go shopping. bill, emily harris, and patricia.
the go to mel's sporting-goods. bill harris decides to shoplift. patricia is across the street in the van alone. she's alone in the van. they key is in the ignition. she could walk away and do whatever she wanted. go home or go to the police. she waits in the van. bill harris gets tackled on the sidewalk for shoplifting. what does patty do? the she run away? -- does she run away? she picks up a machine gun and fires a fusillade of bullets across the street to try to free bill harris. thinks about it, picks up another gun, fires more weapons, miraculously not hitting anyone but getting bill and emily harris back into the van. that is not the act, in my opinion, of someone who is a terrorized victim. that is the act of a co-conspirator. charlie: how did she become that?
mr. toobin: that is really the core of the mystery that is the patty hearst story. the sla, this ragtag group of people, they called themselves an army but there were at most a dozen of them. three of them kidnapped her. six of them hold her. a very small group of people. they knew nothing about her except she was a hearst and a college student. they didn't know that they found her at a very restless moment in her life. she was living engaged to be married to stephen weed, a graduate student in philosophy. she was unhappy. she didn't want to be married but she didn't want to admit that she didn't want to be married. she had a contentious relationship with her mother. she was starting to be politically aware. it was a moment, she was 19 years old, she was a kid.
she was in a malleable place in her life. they kidnap her. a violent, horrible act. they stuff her in a trunk and put her in a closet. they open the door and start talking to her and listen to her. they talk to her about politics. they tell her the only thing we have to fear is the police attacking us. the fbi. we are on your side. we are trying to free oppressed people and feed the poor. she starts to be sympathetic. she ultimately, in very short order, joins in the bank robbery. the famous photograph of her holding the machine gun. and she is off and running and remains on the run. charlie: what has she said? mr. toobin: she said the
kidnapping was horrible. but that the horror continued after the kidnapping. she said she was raped. she said she was coerced into doing the bank robbery and was, in fact, feared for her life. she was so afraid they were going to kill her and that the whole thing was nothing but a victimizing of her from beginning to end. charlie: that is not plausible to you? mr. toobin: it is not plausible to me. it parts of it are certainly true and i don't want to minimize the trauma and horror of getting kidnapped. charlie: they could shoot you at any moment. mr. toobin: but when you look at her behavior over the course of the year and a half, and how independently she behaved, and how many opportunities she had to leave and ask a police
officer to help her. she was in a hospital with poisoned oak. she was with people during the year. the people that had no gun, including jack scott, the former sports activist. his parents tried to talk her into leaving but she wouldn't do it. if you look at the facts of the case, you can conclude that she was a member of the sla. she fell in love with two of them. the first was willie wolf, one of the six original kidnappers.
he was closest to background to hear -- to her. he was the son of a physician that grew up in a middle-class household, went to prep school, was a student at berkeley. a smart kid in many respects. charlie: has there been any reaction from her to the book? mr. toobin: she expressed in public while i was writing it that she did not want me to write it. and we had a very brief conversation and several conversations to intermediaries where she said she didn't want any part of it. didn't want me to write it. charlie: what about the conversation? mr. toobin: i can recite the whole conversation. i had sent several e-mails. i said, patricia, this is jeff toobin. "oh, god." click. i can recite the conversation to you, charlie.
i think i was getting the hint. charlie: let me turn to the supreme court. what about merrick garland? mr. toobin: there is not a chance of anything happening then. i don't think there is a chance he will be confirmed during the lame-duck period. some people think -- charlie: the republicans will call a special session. mr. toobin: let's get the 63-year-old moderate is that of the 45-year-old liberal that hillary might. charlie: merrick garland, as you remember, was a nominee for the supreme court and had nothing to do with the patty hearst story. mr. toobin: that i know of. i think that mitch mcconnell, the senate republican leader has made clear that he does not think this president barack
obama should fill the seat. i think it will apply to january 20. charlie: if hillary clinton won the presidency, someone to the left of merrick garland. mr. toobin: correct. but mcconnell can't go back on that promise now. also, you have senators like ted cruz and tom cotton that will not allow a lightning fast process. they are not on the judiciary. cruz is. not sure about cotton. the point is, they will not allow a rapidfire confirmation. the interesting question to me, what does hillary clinton do if she wins and the nomination is just sitting there? i think she has an interesting political opportunity and dilemma. her base will want her to appoint someone younger and more liberal.
but she has a big agenda in front of congress. she was to get infrastructure through, immigration through. if she nominates a controversial candidate on january 20, that's the first six months. it would suck the air out of the other conversations. there is the possibility that if she goes to mitch mcconnell, i will give you merrick garland. but pushing through and do not filibuster him. or get my younger and more liberal nominee and we can fight it out. i think she will have an interesting political dilemma. but she has to win the election. charlie: day by day -- if you had to bet. mr. toobin: you would certainly bet on her but it could change. charlie: at the same time, how conservative is he?
how moderate, how liberal? mr. toobin: he's about like stephen breyer. centrist left. charlie: that's what hillary says she is. mr. toobin: so is barack obama and elena kagan. snja scioscia mayor -- otomayor turned out to be more left than centerleft, but not a lot. charlie: is she the most liberal? mr. toobin: she and ginsburg are close but sonia soto mayor has taken the lead and decided to be the voice of the black lives matter movement. i think that's very significant, important, and useful. i think merrick garland would be another vote to cut back on citizens united, the case about campaign finance.
charlie: it was mentioned by her in the speech repeatedly. mr. toobin: another vote for trying to roll back the restrictions on voting rights that many states have imposed. i think he would vote -- if you look at stephen breyer, he votes with ginsburg almost all the time. they vote together almost all the time. so do the four conservatives. this is something that republicans are upset about. the liberals are in lockstep and we lose roberts on health care, we lose kennedy on gay rights. it turned out to be very significant. charlie: what does the loss of justice scalia mean for the court? mr. toobin: epic. liberals can't lose cases
anymore. the worst thing that can happen is that they have ties. because they vote together all the time. that means there will not be conservative precedents established by this court henceforth. it is a huge change in my lifetime. oral arguments are totally different. justice scalia was such a larger-than-life figure and he was such an aggressive questioner. the court looks different, sounds different, and the results are different. charlie: you will miss him? mr. toobin: i'm not sure i would put it that way. i miss the theater of it. charlie: i mean the dynamism of the ideas. mr. toobin: they are important, but they are reflective.
charlie: is there a difference in terms of their articulation of the ideas? mr. toobin: thomas asks one question after 10 years but he's a very powerful intellectual voice. don't kid yourself. he was patronized by a lot of people. charlie: in terms of how you see him as a justice. mr. toobin: the most conservative since the 1930's, scalia. charlie: a fascinating story. someone like o.j. simpson part of the curiosity of america of how somebody unexpectedly gets involved in criminal acts.
between the armed forces and performance arts communities, bringing the best of modern american theater to the military. from august 11 through the 14 he will be staging a play "lobby hero." we are pleased to have him at the table for the first time. the idea that you wanted to do this thing came from where? your experience in the marines, theater, seeing some connection that people hadn't thought about? mr. driver: basically being at school from being in the military was the first time i felt like i was exposed -- knowing nothing about the culture, playwrights. when i got out and went to school was the first time that i discovered sam shepard and david mamet.
and found how important language was. i just come from this military environment where there was an emphasis put on acronyms, but not so much about using words to describe feelings. i was noticing a change in myself. i felt less aggressive when i was able to use my language more. and i regret not having that in the military and wanted to share it with my friends. that was kind of the genesis of it. charlie: and when you now share it with military friends, do they feel the same thing? is it something that was an instant kind of, adam, you're right? mr. driver: i got out earlier and i was in school trying to explain to them. i wear pajamas and talk about my feelings in acting school.
i could see they were very apprehensive about what it is that we actually did all day. but there's something about seeing something live in watching someone live without the filter of a screen and people get the connection. and also because of the material that we pick. it's not shakespeare or the greeks. not that there is anything wrong with that, but mamet is very accessible material. to generalize the military culture, the language itself rakes down the barriers. charlie: is this again to what been happening in prison. can you give them introduction in a different way? mr. driver: there is a strong stereotype. all of these elected generals wrote plays for a culture that was at war.
they want to see the dallas cheerleaders or prisoners want to see something violent and aggressive. they are not being told that that group of people won't respond to any kind of complexity or nuance that you see in theater. it was insane to me. charlie: this is what you said to vanessa. for me, becoming a man had a lot to do with learning communication. i learned about that by acting.
i was able to use my words. you can give voice to what you feel. mr. driver: being able to embody their language. and the material resonates in ways that isn't so obvious. we could do streamers, which is a great play, but -- mr. driver: tom stoppard? charlie: david ray. we try to focus away from military themes and show character struggling through human problems we share that are not specific to military or civilians. like a military audience that accurately reflect them back. it's not civilians telling military audience what it's like to be in the military. not that people can't understand the difference in culture.
but we're not going in with preconceived notions with what people will respond to in what they don't. one of my favorite things -- i'm rambling, but we did this monologue from china by scott oregon. it was about an employer reprimanding an employee for not wearing a bra. all the marines afterwords, the male marines were like, i thought the whole thing was good to go and i understood what you guys were after. there was that one monologue about that woman yelling at her employee for not wearing a bra that we felt like was an indirect attack on the way we do things in the military. there was a point for structure and uniformity. we thought that you were saying -- mocking the structure we have in place for good reason.
the female marines were saying, i loved it all, especially that line. what it's like to be a female in a very male-dominated culture. charlie: how did you come to juilliard? mr. driver: i was interested in acting before i went to the military. after september 11, i felt like most people my age -- at that time, doing nothing, i felt like i wanted to be involved. the marine corps to me was like the top of the pyramid as far as military service was. i'm going to do it. i'm going to do that and go all the way. but when i got out of the military, i had kind of a false idea. civilian problems are easy. wait in line?
that's the wrong percentage of milk? what are civilian problems? they are manageable and solvable. anything i wanted to do i could do in the civilian world, which is an illusion. but i had preconceived notions. charlie: would most actors benefit from the kind of experience you had? mr. driver: a lot of actors have no idea and have never been in a military base. or they have associations through film and television. not to keep calling out laura linney, but she said it was kind of like the f-troop. but it's not at all. you forget that these are people. people with feelings. they happened to have a job where the stakes are really high. i think of acting as a service. as opposed to, obviously, it can be an egotistical thing.
a seemingly unnecessary profession. but seeing it used as a tool and especially taking it outside of new york to people that have never been to a play, i really feel like you see firsthand, watching a theater experience for a first time and not knowing how effective live performance can be. really, for me, even though acting is many things -- a political act, a calling, or whatever adjective is applicable. it is a service. to use it as that takes the pressure off. you are really just one part of a bigger thing. the same thing. as a military unit, you are one role in a larger machine.
if you don't show up, things are not going to happen. same thing if you are not there to support your partners or the people you're with. it has given me less tolerance for things like that. where it's not a team effort. charlie: the people that don't appreciate the team and the mission. mr. driver: someone is paying a lot of money for a lot of people to be in one place at one time to tell a story that is bigger than any one person. it better be worth it. i think i took that from the military, too. everyone is away from their families. in acting, you are pretending to be in life or death circumstances. in the military, you are in life or death circumstances. it better before a good reason, i guess. why take it lightly? charlie: there are those, and we know the stories in terms of suffering from some kind of depression coming out because they miss that aspect of what their life has been.
mr. driver: and to speaking from my own experience, you are aware of what you can do in a day. in the military, your day a structured and at the end of the day, look at all the things i've done. when you become a civilian, where can i plug-in all this energy? i am strong, healthy, i want to do something. i am looking for that kind of discipline and structure. especially if you are an infantry marine or -- how are you going to apply that? not think that you were going to flip out because you are in the military? charlie: do you have any regret about leaving the military? mr. driver: yes. i didn't complete it. i didn't complete it with the people i was with. charlie: you had a medical discharge.
mr. driver: now i'm used to civilian life and it's great. charlie: what is great about civilian life as compared to military life? mr. driver: just the freedom obviously to do what you want to do. charlie: the lack of someone deciding how you'll spend every minute of your time. mr. driver: yes. and trying to continue your service you don't have to worry about the bureaucracy of your rank in comparison to trying to get something done. charlie: to those who haven't seen "girl" tell us who adam sackler is. mr. driver: a rhinoceros who runs full force at something until he gets bored or distracted and then he turns and can only see what is right in front of him. he's lena's boyfriend, hannah on the show. charlie: right. mr. driver: who kind of over the course of six seasons, we just finished it a couple weeks ago, kind of evolved into this # -- this being more committed to doubled down to being an actor and, you please, back and forth in this relationship with
hannah. mr. driver: i had done that movie "lincoln" that kathy kennedy was the producer on and she recommended me to j.j. j.j. had only seen girls. i flew out to l.a. and met him and we talked about the character. there was no script, nothing. he kind of gave me a general sense of it. then it was months of thinking about it and a month after he said do you want to do it and i just wanted to think about it for a long time. charlie: why did you have to think about it? mr. driver: i mean, there was no script and more so just the idea scared me a lot. you know, i was a fan of those movies. you know, it's like a big hollywood kind of thing and -- charlie: were you thinking i'm
not sure i'm up to doing this or were you thinking i am not sure i want this because it may take me a place i really didn't want to go? mr. driver: i never thought of where it would take me. i thought of what if i, the stakes are so big what if i get there and i have no ideas and it's going to be bad, that i'm going to be bad and sink it? mostly just because of failure on such a big scale like that is a terrifying idea. charlie: but it's also given you a huge profile. mr. driver: yeah, well, yes. it definitely made things easier for ataf. charlie: you said that. of course. hello. adam driver on the line. mr. driver: but then you also have to fight for the right kind of money because it's a tricky thing to donate. obviously the art is always difficult to raise money for. scared me a lot. not like -- you know when people want to support worthy causes. we're not saying, you know, give us a hundred dollars and it'll go toward art. the benefit may not be immediate. but that's easier. but i lost you.
charlie: tell me, how did you see him? mr. driver: this is also tying into why i decided to do it. because it was j.j. and i was expecting hollywood movies obviously. i have a strong chip on my shoulder that it's a lot about spectacle and not character. charlie: well, it is. mr. driver: but not -- i would say the first words out of j.j.'s mouth were story and character. and it will give you something nuanced to play and hopefully not something that is generic. the relationship is what the -- the idea of parents and fathers. charlie: that's true with spielberg, too. mr. driver: what's that? charlie: the sense of story and parent and father and seeing stories in terms of the perspective of relationships and character. mr. driver: right. and for some reason studios
don't see that is what makes those movies have a long life. they're interested in short life. not something that has a long-lasting impact. charlie: has all of this changed your ambition in any way, i mean in the best sense of the word. clearly, ambition, what you're doing here is ambition. mr. driver: yes. sometimes it's ahead of me where i think that, i mean, the fact that i'm sitting here at this table talking to you is a very -- about a nonprofit, you know, that we started six years ago at julliard is way ahead of what i imagined. and sometimes you just, knowing that the attention is on you sometimes, i don't feel yet comfortable with -- or even being a spokesperson or cheerleader for any kind of cause, i never imagined that something like that would be my life or i'd be comfortable doing it. so sometimes i'm getting more comfortable. i don't know if that answers your question. charlie: my point, too, is with your fame, whatever -- if that's
the word. and high profile, but it is, popularity and fame, with that, can you do more with this nonprofit? mr. driver: for sure. yes. whereas before people were, what is it, theater? now it's like, okay. we're fans of "star wars." so you can come here. charlie: yeah you can come here. mr. driver: you have to take the right money to feel you can sleep well at night. sure ks sure. come down to our bank and take a picture with my daughter. no. does anyone want to support the cause, you know? that's what we're going toward. making it less about me and my journey. telling a group of people that they are not, can't intellectually understand a play is absurd to me. charlie: exactly. mr. driver: and keeping that away from people that generally won't have exposure -- charlie: because you can connect it to
your own life. mr. driver: of course, yes. charlie: all the basic emotions you guys men and women in the marines feel. mr. driver: yes. and again, we have like tony curbner and all these great writers, hearing their language it's hard not to make the connection to what's great about and what's terrible about and what's difficult about being a human, you know, being alive. and there's no other community, specifically the military, where those stakes are just so high. everyone is away from their families. and it needs a way to process. charlie: thank you for having me. mr. driver: thank you very much for having me. charlie: adam driver. back in a moment. stay with us. ♪
charlie: my guests are known as beach house and they have spent the last 12 years creating music together and have become one of rock's most consistent bands. their instantly recognizable sound is hypnotic and etherial. the band's latest album "thank your lucky stars" comes just two months after their latest release. rolling stone calls it a pure their instantly recognizable vision of the realities of love balancing romance with the burdens that can come with it. here is beach house performing their single "rough song" in our studio. >> ♪
charlie: victoria legrand and alex scally are here the baltimore based duo known as beach house have spent the last 12 years creating music together and have become one of indy rock's most consistent bands. their instantly recognizable sound is both hypnotic and etherial. the band's latest album "thank you lucky stars" comes just two months after their previous release.
"rolling stone" calls it a pure vision of the realities of love bouncing the rush of performance with the burdens that can come along with it. i'm pleased to have victoria and alex here at this table for the first time. welcome. >> thank you very much. >> thanks for having us. charlie: tell me about the first time you two met. did you know that you were i think one of you used the phrase "musical soulmates?" victoria: we didn't know but when we first met on the porch of your family home in baltimore i handed him a c.d. of music and music was already just in play between us. so the second time we got together we were already playing the -- in the basement of my house and it just continued from there. the music was just, i don't know how you call it, fate or whatever. alex: it was at the heart and genesis of our friendship so it's always been there. charlie: yes. did you have the same instincts, the same sense of what music could be?
alex: i think it's always been just very, very natural. there's never been even a misstep in it's been so natural. victoria: the music was the best friend. charlie: how did baltimore influence you? victoria: i think more than anything baltimore has been for me personally, and it's different because alex is born and raised, i am someone that moved there in 2004 and it's just become a home. it's just been a haven. it's been a place where we've made wonderful friendships with people. and the music scene has changed over the last 12 years in many ways and will always change because it's very unique. but it's just been that, a community that has given so much. alex: i think it's a music town but in a certain sense. obviously it's not bustling like new york or l.a. or some other cities might be. charlie: which sometimes can be
good. alex: exactly. victoria: it's refreshing. alex: that is the perfect world is haven. baltimore feels for me unlike other cities like new york where there are all these prrks on you all the time -- all these pressures on you all the time it is a place that really lets you be. charlie: have you sought fame like so many musicians seek fame? victoria: i think it is a dangerous path to travel, seeking fame. i think we've gotten lucky. we've also worked very hard. i think that if you love something, that's what's going to take you someplace. i think seeking financial gains -- i just have read too many stories and heard too many, you know --. alex: we sout to have our music heard so as much as that brings fame but i think of the other things like social media and just having ourselves be known for anything besides music we've tried to not have that.
charlie: you prefer smaller venues? alex: yeah, yeah we do. we just like to be able to feel everybody in the room and not have, like, the experience stop half way through and there just be this blob in the back that's just there. victoria: i think the arenas were never part of beach house destiny. alex: it doesn't really play in a big room. charlie: there is some balance between your own artistic integrity and commercial success. victoria: absolutely. charlie: you have the sense that you have found that together? victoria: i believe that we have through instinct, intuition, and doing things from a natural place. we've tried our best. there were two released in 2015. and this was the second album really last year. the first one was depression cherry. charlie: a remarkable sense of productivity. victoria: it's a lot of work. alex: the beatles did it all the time, right? they were putting out a record ev five months. charlie: if it's good enough for the beatles it's good forenough for you. who writes? victoria: we both write. charlie: together or separate songs? victoria: i would say we do most of the writing together.
we're two different people so our brains -- we're not always together so if someone thinks of something we're doing that separately. but the writing, the true evolution of beach house and the songs is something that we always collaborated together. charlie: and the name came from? victoria: the name came from the air. but we were just exploring the feeling of that first, when we worked on the first record. we were in this particular world. and you're in a different universe every time you make a record but we were just wondering where our band existed, and beach house is something that we got lucky. charlie: what comes first? together you create lyrics, i
mean you create the music and then attach lyrics to it? victoria: i get inspired by words just in general. like throughout the days. phrases come into my brain. but when things really flow out music is what's inspiring. the stories. and the narratives. and all that. charlie: someone said about you you're always looking to find out what the song wants. what does that mean? victoria: respecting the -- alex: i think --. charlie: respecting the beast? the beast is? victoria: the song. the material. the vibrations. charlie: what the words and the music end up being? victoria: yeah. there is an emotional color that starts to come out of something. you know? and you don't know what that is right away but you get this feeling and the feeling can be blank but it's a real thing. and some pieces of music don't have it and other pieces do. and so if there is something really real there, we'll just keep playing it, repeating it, pulling it, and eventually if we're really lucky the words just start coming out. and the words and the sound, they form. they can form instantly. alex: anything you do as you write, any layer you put on it, a bridge that you add or anything, the change of a drum
beat, any time it leaves that feeling then you've gone the wrong way. charlie: make sure you feel it when you put it together. victoria: try to keep some flame. charlie: is there a role model? alex: endless role models. charlie: who are they? alex: bob dylan, his uncompromising nature. charlie: and the poetry. alex: just so many reasons. just the way he is and neil young is someone we always looked up to because he never did a commercial once. you know. and had so much integrity. victoria: i've always loved janice joplin. there are so many people. jim morrison. charlie: as much for their in a
sense listening to only their own drummer as much as to anything else? victoria: beacons like you said of uncompromising light in a certain way. we can't all be as radical and change history as let's say bob dylan or neil young or anyone else but you can at least try to forge your own way. charlie: what can you do? victoria: i don't know if we have that much control over -- even though i grew up with a musical background, i don't think i could guarantee that i would do what i'm doing now. like i think it's just been about certain tenacity, a love, obsession. charlie: the obsession to? victoria: the obsession is of making things. i think making things is a lot about it. it's a certain creative force. i think some people have it more than other people. it's a playful nic, maybe a childishness. you keep your inner child. alex: to actualize a dream that you've had. charlie: are you happiest cree the music in terms of writing and the lyrics and the music and the arranging or are you happiest when you're performing? alex: there are different sides of the coin.
mark: i'm mark crumpton, you're watching bloomberg west. donald trump laid out his economic vision for america today. he said no business should pay more than 15% in income taxes and that he wants to simplify the tax code to three brackets, 12%, 25%, and 33%. his speech was disrupted more than a dozen times by protesters whose shouts were drowned out by boos as they were led by the room by security. hillary clinton says trump's proposal would benefit rich corporations and the wealthiest americans at the expense of the working class. mrs. clinton told a rally in st. petersburg, florida, she'll raise taxes on the wealthy because that's where the money is.
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