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tv   Bloomberg Technology  Bloomberg  July 24, 2019 5:00pm-6:00pm EDT

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emily: i am emily chang in san francisco. this is "bloomberg technology." coming up in the next hour -- >> this is a watershed moment in privacy governance. emily: u.s. federal trade commission or noah phillips joins us to discuss facebook's record $5 billion penalty to put privacy violations behind it. facebook has announced it is being formally investigated by the ftc on antitrust. plus, facebook urging forward
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with at least one ftc settlement in its rearview mirror. the company posted second-quarter results, shares are up as most of wall street says fundamentals remain strong. tesla resorts second-quarter results, cutting losses and wall street reacts. we will break down what went wrong and right. our top story, facebook out with second-quarter earnings, proving the company can grow advertising and users while feeling the heat from regulators worldwide. hours after facebook announced a settlement with the u.s. federal trade commission to end a probe into the privacy policies, the beingy confirmed it is investigated by the ftc on antitrust as well. facebook was alerted to the investigation in june but is just now sharing the news with investors. this as growth in revenue and daily active users beat estimates but with its
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reputation continually under assault, how? david, first of all, what is your take on this new investigation by the ftc? david: it doesn't really surprise me. we have multiple parts of the government investigating facebook for many things. one of the most salient things is facebook did not admit they did anything wrong. i think we really haven't seen introspectiont of about why all this happened and i think that is telling. unfortunately, the reason it happened is because they have had poor governance and it had bled out into all kinds of areas of their business and it is causing them long-term ongoing harm. emily: we are going to talk to one of the commissioners about the details of the settlement and how it will change facebook going forward in a moment.
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speaking about the numbers, with all of these controversies, all of these scandals, how does facebook seem to keep beating the odds? deborah: it is a tough company. every quarter i say the same thing. they have been able to grow revenue, grow user base, despite mounting challenges. this quarter, more of the same. it is really incredible that facebook has been able to do this quarter after quarter. to pushavid, i am going back a little. the be on daily active users, on users, they came light on monthly active users, but do you think this is not going to impact the company's long-term reputation and ability to grow? isid: it's reputation seriously impaired already. the ability to grow is a complicated question, because,
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they just keep breaking and the dope. raking in the dough. there is not really another place to go with similar results. that is great for this company, but long-term, is it going to affect them? it is absolutely going to affect them. there is no question about that. i would love to jump in. i would hundred percent agree with david on that part. 100% agree with david on that part. i do believe that there is plenty of consumer sentiment issues with facebook. there are plenty of growing issues with regard to how advertisers feel about facebook, but the thing is, there is still spending there and people are still using facebook, despite those concerns. emily: earlier today, zuckerberg
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gave a town hall at the company. here is what he had to say about the settlement. >> i believe that companies should be held accountable on privacy. this is what accountability looks like. as part of this settlement, we have to pay a major fine and there are now very clear rules about how we need to operate on this. toelieve that this is going help us serve our community better. emily: the ftc could have sued facebook but that didn't happen. they could have sued zuckerberg, that didn't happen. they could have curtailed zuckerberg's professional responsibilities as well. that happened to a very small extent. do you think the settlement goes far enough to provoke the introspection that you believe is needed as the company continues to grow? david: i would probably have to say no, because i do not see enough introspection.
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fine tokes a $5 billion make a company finally start doing what it should have been doing all along with privacy and governance, that is a very bad fine about the culture of the company. the culture of the company. i do see gradual reform and changing behavior, i am not going to deny the company is any other place than it has been in the past. the fundamental reasons why this happened have not been addressed and i think they allowed a culture to emerge which showed very little concern for some basic interests of their users, because they were so thrilled at the amount of money they were making. a familyis is really of companies now. facebook, messenger, whatsapp, instagram, how do you see growth in these different divisions changing in the future?
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instagram continues to be a better story. we suspect that facebook proper users are getting older, growth is starting to slow. what do you see? debra: instagram remains a very strong growth engine, no question. that said, according to our forecast, instagram is still well under one third of facebook's total revenue and will continue to be that way in the next few years. it is not like growth at instagram is going to suddenly balloon this company to be bigger than it already is. the main part of revenue, the main driving force of revenue remains that big blue app. there is no revenue going into whatsapp, limited revenue going into messenger. it is really all about the blue app and about instagram, with most of the focus on the blue app. emily: we will continue to follow the headlines.
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facebook's earnings call is underway. thank you both as always. test theearnings news, shares fell in late training after the company reported second-quarter results. the carmaker posted a worse than expected loss. tesla said it is going to focus on delivering more cars, expanding capacity and generating cash going forward. we will break down tesla's earnings later this hour. coming up, back to facebook's record settlement with the ftc. >> this is a watershed moment in privacy enforcement and privacy governance. emily: we will hear from ftc commissioner noah phillips on how he thinks the facebook fine will change how your data is protected and ask about the newly revealed antitrust investigation. that is next. this is bloomberg. ♪
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>> this settlement is the result of an exhausting investigation which concluded that facebook trade the trust of its users and deceive them about their ability to control their personal information. emily: that was federal trade commission chair announcing what we all knew was coming. a $5 billion settlement between the ftc and facebook. some terms of the deal increased responsibility by the board to protect user data, but little impact to facebook's lucrative advertising business. the agreement was approved by the ftc with a vote along party lines. i want to bring in one of the officials who voted in favor. minutes ago, facebook announced it is being investigated on antitrust one day after the department of justice said it has opened an antitrust probe. ftc commissioner noah phillips
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joins us from washington. thank you so much for joining us. about the ftcd antitrust investigation into facebook. on top of this settlement news that we heard today, how advanced is this investigation and can you tell anything about what you are exploring? noah: thanks for having me. the details of what we do in terms of investigations and even the existence of those investigations is confidential and we don't reveal it. in this case, because facebook has publicly announced that they are at the subject of a probe, i can confirm that there is a probe. known so, it is widely that facebook used data that it tracked from its own users to decide whether or not to buy instagram, to understand that instagram was becoming popular. do you think you will use some of the details that you learned as a result of the privacy investigation in the antitrust investigation? noah: unfortunately, because it
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is ongoing, other than confirming its existence, there is nothing that i can say. emily: all right, so let's talk about the ftc settlement, which i said earlier, the vote was along party lines -- it was not, however, can you tell us how the ftc came to the decision? in 2012, facebook committed to us and to the american people that it would take certain steps in regard to privacy. in particular, that it would not miss or resent the kinds of sharing going on with the it would notthe -- misrepresent the kinds of sharing going on with developers. facebook wrote those promises and a few others. we are here today because we looked at what facebook had done and we wanted to send an
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important message about orders ando ftc commitment to privacy. board will now have to personally certify that facebook is complying. how would you like to see the management of the company change? noah: i think, above all, what we would like to see is a greater focus at facebook on privacy. that includes mr. zuckerberg and under the terms of the order, he is going to have to focus more on privacy, but it is not just about mark zuckerberg. what this order requires beyond the fine is attention to privacy at every level of the company. engineers who are working on projects are going to have to think about the privacy impact of what they do and if they choose not to protect privacy, they will have to explain why. this goes all the way to the board of directors. the board is going to have a new committee which will have ultimate authority to oversee privacy.
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emily: why not find zuckerberg directly or do more to limit his personal authority? ish: as i said, this case not just about mark zuckerberg. this case is about facebook in general. mark zuckerberg is a very important person at that company, but he is by no means the only one. we want people up and down the line to be focused on privacy. emily: there are a lot of critics who say a $5 billion fine is not enough and that the structural changes required here are also not enough. voted your colleagues who against the settlement decide it imposes no meaningful changes to the company structure or financial incentives which led to these violations. instead, the order allows facebook to decide how much information it can harvest from users and what it can do with that information. what is your response? noah: to me, there are two really important point here.
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the first is, what we do at the ftc's law enforcement. so, what we look at in any case is what the facts show and what do the legal obligations and did the company break the law and we try to remediate the violation of the law. we don't come in & he tell the company what to do about everything. there are a lot of people in america who have real concern about how facebook conduct itself. that is a conversation that goes on all the time in homes across the country and right now in congress, which is thinking about privacy registration -- legislation. termsacebook was doing in of added practices is not what this case was about. this was about the misrepresentation to users about privacy and several of those things we talked about, and critically, that is what we are aiming to remedy. emily: another colleague who voted against this says the ftc would have done better by suing
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facebook and zuckerberg himself. why not do that? i don't think that is an accurate characterization of the state of play. achievedues we have financial and injunctive, meaning the changes we are making to facebook, are very unlikely to have been achieved through a court process. in a normal litigation, you are laying the -- weighing the certainty of less against the chance of more. we were facing a decision between the certainty more and the uncertainty of getting even less. now, privacy advocates have advocated for bigger changes to how facebook attracts its users-- tracks and fundamental changes to the advertising revenue business. do you think the changes here are going to be enough to change facebook's practices going forward if it is not, aside from
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a $5 billion fine, hitting the bottom line? noah: that conversation is really important and it is part of the conversation that is going on nationally and in congress about what ought to be allowed and what is not allowed. that is not what this case is about. this case is about the commitments that facebook made and it's violation of those commitments and that is what we are focused on here. about going talk forward. are you in favor of a national privacy law? noah: that is something i have urged congress to consider. i think they are looking at a a lot of business practices at facebook and elsewhere in the economy. i do think congress ought to take a careful look at this case, look at the underlying practices, and if they think that they don't like what facebook did and should have changed every thing about their business, that is a fair thing for congress to fink about and
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that should inform the conversation. let's talk about the conversation happening between the commissioners. has said he the ftc does not want or believe the compliment -- the government should have broad rule-making authority, rather targeted rule-making authority. is a national privacy law going to be better for users and consumers in the future? noah: i certainly hope, if we adopt any law, that it is better for consumers. my view is that the fundamental decisions in privacy involve real trade-offs between private -- privacy and competition. what: what kind of a law, details, what fine print would you support? noah: i think we have to see what congress comes up with. i am very excited to see them
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come out with a bill and consider it. let's talk bigger picture. i understand that you cannot comment on the specifics of the investigation, but, in your opinion, do you believe there is a case to be made that facebook, given that it owns whatsapp, instagram, messenger, is too big? old saw in antitrust law is that big is not necessarily bad. but it is also true that where a company has a dominant market series ofthere are a legal obligations that go along with that. i am not going to comment directly about facebook, because, as you noted, the of confirmed the existence of the probe. more broadly, senator elizabeth warren has called for the breakup of big tech.
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she has gotten support from both sides of the aisle. does she have a point? noah: i gave a speech about this a while ago and what i said was, in antitrust, as elsewhere in law enforcement, what you want to do is figure out what is the wrong and how does the remedy address the wrong. that is a really important conversation to have. my view is that simply saying the same remedy for a wide variety of companies that have very different practices is neither the right answer, not getting to the right outcome, and not true to antitrust law. of ongoingking investigations, i do have to ask, because it has been reported that the ftc has reached a settlement with youtube over violations of the children's online privacy protection act. can you tell us the status of your discussions? noah: as i said, as a general matter, we don't even comment on the existence of our
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investigations, much less the substance. emily: more broadly, can you comment on your level of confidence that big tech companies, whether it is ,acebook or alphabet or youtube which is a google company, are they living up to the law? are they doing what is right by consumers, by children? noah: let me say the following -- the law details what their obligations are and when they break the law, we are going to be there and that is why we are here today. emily: noah phillips, commissioner at the federal trade commission. thank you so much for joining us on a big day. good to have you. coming up, the era of big tech ipos continues. wework could be hitting the public market. we will have that story next. this is blue. -- this is bloomberg. ♪
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emily: we work is listed in
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september if what could be the largest ipo of the year. they are targeting a sale of about $3.5 billion. at $47iness is valued billion. another step back for the self-driving car company. general motors cruise unit is backing off plans to deploy robo taxis by the end of the year. the performance will not be able to be examined in time. coming up, shares of tesla fall in after hours trading after the company reports a worse than expected second-quarter loss and backtracks on a profit forecast. facebook's earnings call still underway. take a listen to mark zuckerberg telling investors about the $5 billion fine his company will be paying the ftc. >> i want to talk about the recent news that we reached a settlement with the ftc over privacy concerns. as part of this, we have agreed
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to pay a $5 billion fine, but even more importantly, we are making major changes to how we build our services and run this company. this will require investing a significant amount of engineering resources and building tools to review our products. it will also significantly increase our accountability by bringing the process for automating privacy controls more in line with how financial controls work at public companies. ♪ hey! i'm bill slowsky jr.,
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emily: this is "bloomberg technology." tesla posted a worse than expected loss and backtracked from a profit forecast. cash and deliveries imaging is the biggest challenges to growth. you've got an outperform. what is your take on these headline numbers? the $5 billion on the balance sheet is a great number. i think margin is probably why the stock is down, and i think margin is actually, if you go
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through the numbers in detail, better than expected. of i think forward guidance being gaap positive on that income is good as well. it's kind of an overreaction to the downside in my opinion. overreaction,s an it is a big overreaction. shares are down 10% right now. profitable atrned the end of last year. that reversed at the beginning of this year. elon musk said the company would become profitable later this year. it looks like that's not going to happen. >> they are still trying for it. it should be said there are two things going on with tesla. they've been pushing like crazy for volume. they want to be a large volume car manufacturer, one of the biggest in the world long-term. this car that they are selling does not have great margins, it
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seems. they pushed so hard to get the price down to that magic base price, got there. it has come up a tiny bit, but margins are supertight on those low in cars. as people by the cheaper model three, they are moving away from more expensive cars, so there is a pressure on profit that at the very least as a near-term problem and critics are going to say this is a long-term problem. this is a company that will have a hard time getting to profitability. emily: is it a near or long-term problem? >> it's much rue, the model three they actually had better , soins quarter over quarter it's not true. they are making improvements on gross margin, so i'm not sure what that statement is. emily: max? >> yeah, the company is not profitable right now. run, they the long
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want to be more efficient in the factory, be more efficient in their operations. that's the message we've been hearing from elon musk basically for the last year, and then they want to get these new cars out, the model y, which could be a huge boom for the company. that's the car most americans are buying, and also getting to china -- emily: it is a cheaper suv. what is the status of it? is it going to be her next year? inquiring minds want to know. >> i don't have any inside information. teslanly the big effort is doing right now on top of building a giga factory in china, which would be huge. the chinese market is the biggest model in the world for electric vehicles. emily: what is your tech -- take on how much china can change the tesla story as they continue to try to get new models to the market? production have any
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in our numbers from china this year. i think what is most underestimated about everything here is the brand in china and how it has kind of become a wildfire and how many cars it can sell, and i think that is upside. just back to the cash flow they generate during the quarter, it is a couple hundred million dollars, so the idea they don't make money is completely wrong, and the headline needs to change. there's $5 billion on the balance sheet. they are not going out of business. you have other oem's that have really hard problems, restructuring problems, and it's not tesla. .t's xyz, german manufacturers emily: there's a point there and that if you talk to people who
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theirslas, they love cars. they are not focused on the ins and outs of if the company is making money, what production looks like, so how much does that matter? >> it's huge. making a good car if you are a car company is more important than anything else. one thing about the conversation over the lasted year is about a year ago, people were saying the company is doomed, they will never get to volume production, and now, the different debate. this tesla a niche manufacturer? that would be the bear case. the bull case is this is a company that is going to be bigger than toyota, daimler, and so on, and if you are elon musk, that is a good shift in the conversation. you don't have as many people going around talking about this thing collapsing any day.
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emily: talk about a shift in the conversation. it has been a little bit more restrained on twitter, let's say, since his settlement with the sec over how he is communicating with the public. what is your evaluation of musk's leadership, given some of the hiccups over the last year? >> i think people want to invest .ith musk i think him being more is helpful.r quiet i think that being cash flow positive is helpful and having five million books on the for thesheet is helpful growth managers that have not cannotying attention or own this or are of avoiding it to come back and buy it at a lower price then, whatever, a were.go where they
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emily: we will continue to watch the headlines and listen in on the tesla call and bring you any headlines as we have them. a story we will continue to uber has over has -- announced board member arianna huffington is resigning. today she announced -- joined the board when the former ceo was still in that chair and was instrumental in helping you find a new ceo and getting it back on track with some of its cultural issues. coming up, facebook's new era. that is what mark zuckerberg says is in store for the company after a record settlement with the sec to settle privacy violations, but will that be enough to keep lawmakers and
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investors happy? we'll discuss next. as we had to break, zuckerberg participates on the post earnings call providing details .bout the new privacy board >> we will now also have a new privacy committee that will andsee our privacy program work with an independent privacy auditor that will report to this new committee and to the sec. we are asking one of our most experienced leaders to take on the role of chief privacy officer for product, reporting to me and managing our privacy program. we will also be more rigorous and monitoring developments -- developers who access data through our platform. ♪
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emily: now back to facebook. mark zuckerberg told employees at a town hall that the company's $5 billion settlement changed the has game. >> this is a new chapter for the company. privacy is more central to our vision for the future and we are going to change the way we operate across the company, from leadership down and the ground up. we will change how we build products. it we don't, we will be held accountable for it and this is what accountability looks like. changed theas it game? to discuss, we are joined by ben brody who covers tech corporate influence. what is your reaction to the settlement? aside fromtion is the monetary figure, which is notable for the sec, though not notable for facebook, that they
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essentially won on all the other counts. the second is what amount of personal liability there is on the ceo and the sea suite. there's in junctions or remedies on bad behavior, which are often essentially more of the same, scope ofately, the what they are indemnified for is incredibly broad, right? the settlement included this very noteworthy provision of all and him to fight for, which is pretty unique. you typically see something like gone toer a case has trial.
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zuckerberg was not even himself deposed, even though he appeared routinely and the documents that .he ftc looked at emily: you think that they should have talked to him directly? >> absolutely. >> one of the silver linings is the ftc has mandated facebook can no longer use phone numbers -- two-factor -- no longer used on the misfortune of-factor authentication. emily: if you are trying to verify yourself on a new device, facebook will ask you for your phone number, right? >> is a couple of different ways they use your phone number for security. in addition to putting in a password, you put in a code you get on your phone often through a text message, or if you forget your password, facebook sends a code via your phone number. if there is a strange log in, you will get an alert.
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emily: it is used by many, many, many companies. >> right. used forg time, it is security best practices. emily: what happened here is somehow advertisers got hold of these phone numbers facebook was getting from users for security purposes and targeted users based on their phone numbers, correct? exactly in that confirmed the worst fears of a lot of users who need the protection of two-factor protection the most. high own work training risk people and trying to get them to trust two-factor authentication, this news release setback and undermined those efforts to get people more comfortable with and trusting this kind of measure. the good news is that the settlement said facebook can no somer do that, but it left holes for other phone number abuse facebook was doing. it did not say anything about shadow contact information,
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which is when your friends upload your phone number, and that becomes associated with you, a phone number you never gave facebook directly. thatso shows ways two-factor authentication can be used, so just different holes. it was kind of an incomplete win. emily: what has been the reaction to this in washington? >> i think a lot of folks -- i would describe it as tepid to deeply skeptical. there's a group of folks, some of them in the mainstream privacy community, some of them republican lawmakers, who said the figure was pretty high, they are changing the board. let's look and see if maybe this is enough, but we want to keep on top of the ftc about this and keep pushing times the legislation. then you had democrats and privacy hawks who just were firing off all the color they
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could, all the metaphors. you call it 10 kirk, a slap on , slap on -- pinprick the wrist, call it whatever you want. were sayingoners get really is beyond time to pass privacy legislation, that is not necessarily going that will -- that well on the hill, but we could have given the ftc some of those powers that i think even republicans on the commission were lamenting they did not have. emily: we heard from a number of commissioners today. take a listen to what commissioner wilson had to say about the actions against mark zuckerberg in particular. >> we do not have the legal authority to remove mr. zuckerberg from the driver's seat, but we have imposed a robust system of checks and balances that extinguishes his ability unilaterally to chart the path for consumer privacy at facebook. we have required that privacy risks be taken into account at
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each fork in the road, and we have mandated heightened protections for certain categories of products and services, including those directed at miners -- minors. emily: do you think zuckerberg's power has been limited enough? he's talking about this being a new chapter. it's hard to believe, given how many times facebook has violated user trust, that they are really their policy.e >> i think the challenge is that the orders and stipulations in the order do not necessarily require facebook to prioritize privacy over all else. simply requires the company be truthful or not be deceptive again. to your point, they could actually request the same phone
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number they use for two-factor authentication and use it for targeting, they just cannot use it under the guise of solar collecting for two-factor authentication. this is basically companies ,annot be deceptive about it but it does not prevent them from being transparent about their practices and going ahead and doing so. emily: there are things facebook has already said it is going to do like merge the back end whatsapp messenger and instagram -- i know you believe this is deeply problematic. what other major privacy issues do you see down the road that have already been basically two -- teed up? issue huge issue is the of merging those identities. promised it will be up in -- opt-in when it rolls out, but facebook has a history
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of reneging on privacy commitments. we would like to see some kind of limitation that facebook will stick to its word, but if it says it's going to opt in, it's going to remain that way. it's not going to be the case in two or three years uses are surprised by new privacy measures. emily: what do we know about the ? c antitrust investigation >> we do not know a lot about it. i since commissioner phillips may not know a lot about it either. they early days, but basically have a credible reason to believe that there may be a violation that there may be a violation of antitrust laws, that there may be consumer harm that they need to look into. that is basically what that means. that is about all we know right now. we also know that ftc talks to european regulators, so they may be taking cues there, but often
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they want to grow their own way, so it really remains to be seen what will happen. emily: what is happening right now? >> it is quite likely ifmissioners do not yet know it is at the staff level. they were probably briefed on it but do not know all the details, and that is probably by design. i do know the practice you just described, they would be bundling, requiring that one account be forced to use a thanrent product, so what's up, you would be forced to use a facebook account, so that would be bundling. there are a number of things regulars could be looking at with regard to the antitrust investigation. the most important piece is that when you ask the commissioner himself, is to a degree are they different, so the bureau of consumer protection and the bureau of competition in the bureau of economics, the consumer protection competition
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bureau's operate independently, right? the question of to what degree they are overlapping and sharing information from consumer protection investigation with .he competition investigation emily: interesting. fodder for the next few months, maybe years. thank you all. still ahead, ebay is making another effort to compete with amazon, this time pushing limits on delivery speed and cost. our conversation next. this is bloomberg. ♪
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emily: ebay announced it is launching a service that will productrchants to store in various locations around the united states.
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talked to the ceo and asked about the impact. >> there's no doubt we have seen a headwind from the rollout of internet sales tax. that will continue as more and more states roll it out until we fully implement it and work our way out of that next year. at the beginning of the year, no states had an internet sales tax. right now, nine have implemented . 30 have declared. i think it is a terrible policy. i think it is a regressive tax on small business. we've been advocating on behalf of small business for quite a wild. it's the only tax i know of where states effectively are taxing people out of state that cannot vote for their politicians. butink it is a bad policy, at the end of the day, it is what it is. we comply with the laws of states and if they implement a tax, we will collect it on behalf of of sellers. i think practically, what it means for our business is there will be a u.s. headwind after
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these taxes roll out. 5% and 10%, between at checkout. that is another headwind on the american consumer. until somein effect point next year. >> i did want to get lots on the trade war and how it is impacting business both for sellers and buyers on ebay and a departure ofng some sorts. >> it has not impacted us directly because most of the goods we sell have not been in commerce,think it's not a good thing. when i come to a conference like this, what i see is an engine of u.s. job growth. i'm here with thousands of small u.s. merchants who use ebay as a platform, and they are hiring, growing faster than other businesses. they are hiring, and that's the
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engine of growth. 95% of the sellers i will be with cell cross border. they sell most of them to over 25 countries on our platform, so when we put friction on that, it is not ebay that suffers. it is a small business in the midwest that is trying to hire and trying to sell around the world using e-commerce platforms like our own. we are advocates of free and fair trade. we are advocates of low friction because i think when we see low friction in trade, the u.s. economy wins and particularly, small u.s. businesses win. emily: the u.s. sales tax policy is in nine states. that does it for "bloomberg technology." is sure to follow our global breaking news network on twitter -- at tictoc on twitter. this is bloomberg. ♪ i don't know why i didn't get screened a long time ago.
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