tv Bloomberg Technology Bloomberg January 17, 2020 11:00pm-12:01am EST
>> i'm taylor riggs in san francisco. and this is "bloomberg technology." a face-off with facebook. the social met york is sued by four potential competitors to accuse facebook of anti-competitive behavior. details and what's at stake with the co-lead demounl the case. plus, the ultimate engagement, jack torsy asked tesla elon musk for a tip. we'll explain.
and retail and return. the making of -- making the return of a merchandise a more customer-friendly experience. that's the return of friendly. e'll talk to the creo. >> four potential competitors are demanding that mark zuckerberg be forced to give up control of facebook. in a lawsuit they accused facebook of anti-competitive behavior. they want the social network to sell its whats app and facebook asset. facebook says the claims are without merit. we are joined by the co-lead council in the case. great to have you. >> thanks for having me. >> i wanted to break down some of this piecemeal. first, i wanted you to talk about mark zuckerberg and giving up control of facebook. is this even possible? and why? control incontestable
over the company. his class of shares overpower the class a shares. he has carte blanche to do whatever he wants with that company. he has control over the board. when you look at the details of our lawsuit, the anti-competitive scheme was hatch and executed and at times executed straight from him. there's no reason to believe that if you divested a few facebook key assets here or here or awarded damages that you would ever fix the markets. you have great distortion of the markets. and he's at the center of it. >> i want to talk about some of those distortions that you mentioned, one of which -- or the lawsuit is alleging really at they would like whats app to be sold-off from facebook. what's the antitrust lawsuit going on there? >> a lot of major news reported including scukerberg on his blog
that they're rapidly integrating facebook, whats app and the core faced pickup trucks. the reason we moved quickly to bring this suit is that once that integration is over it will be impossible to break this up. it will be impossible to take the giant amalgamation of data that that generation will create. that back end generation and ort of put the genie back in the bottle. right now the markets are segmented. what happened at a global presence, facebook and ore products are u.s. heavy. when the back ends are integrated these products can communicate with each other. and you'll have two billion people in one giant social knelt work. and at that point, we don't thet a normal remedy will fix things. >> so then how did this even get approved when all of these deals are going flew the first place? >> well, you know, what's
interesting is how regulators think of competition. and sometimes kit be a bit formalistic. at the time i think they didn't think of an app, a third party mobile app as a competitor of a social network. but in reality what they're competing for is that user engagement and the social data that comes from it. which is why a messaging app is a direct threat to facebook because people use it, interact with it. and you get that data that you can then use to target content and sell advertising. that's what they're all vying for. what a regulator will often do is these two do very different things. they're not in competition. but now, we know, and we know from facebook's own documents that were published on nbc news that they did very much find things like dating apps and messaging apps to be in direct competition with them. and so when a regulator looked at this, they probably weren't -- didn't have the sort of view of the marks that would tell
them that they were waiting this incredibly concentrated market. >> you know, i think one of the issues here is you have a lawsuit coming by four smaller competitors. how you do make this seem that it's not just four small competitors angry at the bigger guy's market share? >> well, the first thing to mention is you know, you're ways going to have a monopolist extinguish thing as quick as possible. some of them were chat perhaps and messaging perhaps and competition with facebook. there was a dating app. and now we know tinder is this massive success. and we really don't know what would have happened if facebook didn't sort of choose sides. a lot of what we're alleging is at when facebook pulled core a.p.i.'s out of its platform and it decided this in 2011, it let developers think that their
platform was stable for three years before they even made a piece that they were going to pull it. and while they did that, they tarkted the ones they wanted to win, the apps they wanted to win. and they asked them for their most sensitive data. and so what happened was the distortion occurred at the time my clients were competing. they never had a chance. and so, you know, their size, i wouldn't think is very dispositive. the second point i want to make is we're proceeding as a class because facebook looked, checks -- checked and found that 40,000 apps were affect bud their decision and 1,000 of theton appears hada -- had 80% of them that were going to be affected by the decision. if we can establish liability we're establishing for everyone that is hurt. if anyone else is hurt they should do it -- they should bring the suit now. so -- >> well, thank you so much,
yavar bathae. i do want the bring you facebook's statement that we're getting. responding saying that we operate in a competitive environment where people and advertisers have many choices. in the the current environment where they see financial opportunities claims like this are unexpected but they are without merit. we will bring you more on the case. i do want to bring in kurt wagner of bloomberg intelligence. both of you are here with me as well covering facebook from multiple different angles frsm the facebook perspective what, appears to be the bigger threat? the part that perhaps people want mark zuckerberg to lose sop of his big controls state or a threat against this anti-competitive behavior? >> they're one in the same is that mark zuckerberg's control has led to a lot of these phonetial problems. or at least that's what critics would say. it seems to me that they would
be able to take this control considering he's the guy that controls the votes but at a bigger risk that they would split up facebook. i don't think that would happen. instagram is a huge part of facebook's current revenue and whats app messengerer are considered a potential revenue and a reason why people invest into the company. >> do investors care? you get a lot of these smaller lawsuits coming their way. is this a threat really in any sense? >> we kind of saw that really over the last year when you actually look at the valuation of the company, you look at the expectations for 2020, they sort of cable down. earnings actually came down a lot more. and some of these valuation and expectation metrics were sort of reflecting, you know, regulatory issues and issues like that as far as a break-up scenario is concerned, our antitrust
analysts continues to see like low odds of that happening. but even if that does happen at some point, we have to think about some of the parts and how does that impact investors. and that's where there's some comfort. if you look at these properties stand alone, their value stand alone would be higher than what's respected at the moment. >> i want to look at this shown inside my terminal because we were looking at the p.e. racial that the valuation of fashion book -- facebook was cut in half. i should say lower than some of the other come pet tores given some of the news around them. where do they stand in some of the antitrust pieces? i'm thinking the d.o.j., the f.t.c. if that does present a head wind on the stock in your opinion? >> if you look at the xpectations on the spence -- expense side, two or three guidance that they gave for 2020
was very aggress it. $54 billion in costs and expenses. what's important for this year for facebook from a fundamental standpoint, the expectations are rnl. that's in line with what the market tiers that we've been talking to are expecting next year. it's on the top of their list in terms of increasing ad budgets among the other players out there. and also facebook's futures increasingly looking beyond advertising. you know, we're thinking e-commerce, reality, payments, not talking about liber and what they're trying to with whats up app. they're walking back from whats app. so diversefication beyond advertising is not capturing expectation for facebook's long-term growth. what we are seeing is this year if they come out and show progress on any of these fronts
then that will change the story and the narrative for the next couple of years. >> kurt, react to that because we've been talk about whats app and the payment and that getting into some other business opportunities. >> this has been the discussion around facebook is can they figure out a different business line than just ads. they've clearly shown they can make advertising work very well for them. but with e-commerce with instagram and whats app and possibly messengerer these are big opportunities. one of the things they're doing now is basically trying to serve as the connective tissue with businesses that may not have a website or other types of software system to send receipts. what if you receive your seat via whats app message and you can charge the business for that kind of relationship. twhass they envision is a diversefication. but we've been talking about this for a couple of years and they haven't hit anything to date. so that's why, you know, they're
he asked musk to give some direct feedback. here to tell us more about musk advice is kurt wagner. before we get to the advice how did this come apart what where you have elon musk on a video screen? >> kind of a fun story, right? twitter was at this off-site in houston. they flew all of their employees in. jack dorsey from the video i saw looks like he pulls up an ipad. and he literally facetimes elon musk. they have some actual issues getting the audio to work. and voila they're talking on this big screen above jack dorsey's head and the employee base are watching. >> so what's the advice? >> the advice is hey, you should do a better job of identifying eal people on twitter versus bots or real face users. he said it will be really hard to get real feedback. are people that are complaining real customers? are people who are complaining have issues with tesla cars?
what is that? when you can't tell a bot from a real person on the network it can make things difficult. >> there does seem to be a real issue. i feel like a lot of the hate mail, a lot of the negative comes on twitter. don't get that much on instagram or facebook. how has twitter not been able to control that as much as some of the other social media companys? >> i mean, it comes back to real identity which is the term facebook uses all the time because they say, hey, in order to create a profile has to be your true self. you have to use a real photo. if they believe that you're not, you know, your real self they'll ask you, send in a driver's license. prove you are who you are. twitter doesn't have that. that's part of what makes twitter fun. they have these anonymous accounts. it creates a real opportunity for people who want to be helpful, who want to be trolly or negative because they can hide behind any e-mail that they
can get their hands on. and it's hard to police that way. >> i wanted to ask you, give me your quick thoughts. twitter for the advertising market? >> there's no comparison. facebook in a league of its own. facebook and google are way up here. twitter is way down here. i don't see them that coming closer unfortunate. >> always a good flexibility conversation with bloomberg's kurt wagner. thank you for joining us. and coming up, why verizon decided to stop its bundles and contracts. we'll hear from their c.e.o.
>> of course, we sat down and thought about what do our customers want to have? and what -- what a companies are resonating with our value and will make something? remember, we have the best network. i would say we have a fantastic brand and we have a distribution and know what we have when it comes to customers. that's what we bring to the table. >> so these customers get free access, whether it's apple music or disney. >> what's the pay-off? and are there more partnerships coming? >> i say you get it free from the beginning and then we're throwing them into paying customers. that model is that we have a lower cost at the beginning and we get something back when they get pague. we now know how many of our customers will be turning around because we have so good of our customer base who wants it. so that's -- that's how we do it. and of course, yes it might be m.ly do it only with brands that
really believe is sticking up to our values. as well as for our customers. >> talk about the amazon deal. we talk so much about the cloud and amazon web services. what does that enable you do do? >> it is extreme exciting. i spent -- we spent almost 1 1/2 years with amazon to do this we are bringing the cloud service out to the edge together with 5g in order to get super low and applications.or this is the first time in the world where actually we have seen that project. amazon couldn't have done it by themselves because they don't have wireless 5g. verizon couldn't have done it by ourselves because we don't have cloud software. it is so transform tiff that basically you can click on our first 5g website in chicago and start developing an application
with 5g. of course, it's a transformative. think of us have hundreds of them, maybe thousands of them other time where you have big data centers maybe less than 10 in the country. we can then tie the experiences of low lay tense si. and they're going to the internet and get the facts back. autonomous cars and realtime a.r. v.r., intelligence all of that can be at the end. that's why we're so excited about this partnership and what we launched. >> that was verizon c.e.o. hans vestberg. >> it is also the focus of a new push senator mark warner of virginia. he wants to create a western version different than that offered by huawei. he joined bloomberg with chief washington correspondent kevin
cirelli. >> 5g and the issue of huawei has been over the last year plus, bipartisan issue. this is one area where there's a lot of us who are in agreement with the administration. we have to prevent huawei from dominating the 5g market place. if we allow the market to play out, they'll end up with 60%, 70%. what we have not been able to offer in america that purchase huawei, even if you convince they're the national security issue what,'s the alternative. china has put up $100 billion to back huawei which has got pretty good equipment. they allow it to price that equipment and allow enormously attractive financing plans. what we have to get to the next generation of what's called open radio access network, we in our
legs would put up over a billion dollars to support that kind of development and that kind of international effort to finance huawei. d-to-head from >> where does the company come from? >> from a certain spectrum that should be allocated to 5g. currently there are satellite carriers that give up that spectrum. the proceeds -- some of the proceeds will go to build back up broadband. how do we dwp a western alternative to huawei? we believe that will be an o-rand network. we have to do more to shore up those competitors to huawei, and samsung. >> right now germany has a tough
decision to make. huawei hard.ushing what's the message to germany? >> not only germany but the brits are making this decision as well. they have huawei equipment. i think most of their security apparatus realized it's not a good long-term solution to have your whole network dependent on a 100% on a pure chinese supplier and particularly a supplier like huawei that has m.ch close ties to the can we move this away from kind of a single stat, single providor to a more open base software-driven system? that's where orand will build a bridge to and the fact that our
government would make that kind of down payment that i hope would spur other development from other western nations who don't want to rely on china. >> timetable, end of the year? >> my sense is this is the kind of legs that needs to pass sooner rather than later because until we have a plan not just coming out of america but for the west at large huawei is going to continue to win? -- to win. >> before the election? >> another country because they don't feel there's a viable western alternative. there's not even a viable western alternative is going to turn to huawei,. if we can put together an organized plan i think we can stop which will be a major national security issue. >> that was senator mark warner of virginia. we look at what phase one of the u.s.-china trade deal mean for tech companies.
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>> this is bloomberg technology. i'm kayla riggs in san francisco. after three years, the u.s. and china have signed phase one of their trade deal. president trump and the chinese vice premier put pen to paper where it will have a significant impact on the tech world. to talk about phase one's completion and all of the other talk tech stories of the week, we're joined by tom plak and tom giles. tom, in your world what changed on wednesday with the signing of phase one? >> just enough to deep
technology industry interested. >> paris, instructions on trade with huawei for example which have proved problematic for many in the technology industry are still in place. he's left us in suspense for many, many months. hat said there were changes in intellectual property. there are going to be some limits around that. so there was some progress made. and that is something that the technology industry can take some encouragement from? >> your thoughts on if we got enough concession regarding i.t. theft or the transfer, the likes of that? >> taylor, i i think it's a reasonable start. but we appreciate that there's a very long way to go. if we step back and think about what's going on, this search i have going to be marked by enormous change in the
technology arena which has ramifications across economies, societies how people live, work play. part of what's going on in my view is that both the u.s., china, other nations realize the importance here. and so from a company and an investing standpoint, we continue to focus on company's abilities to innovate and deliver value to their customers. if they're able to do what is likely to be in the face of likely tension between these two countries, i think there's room to create a lot of value. taylor: you mentioned huawei. steve mnuchin said it won't be a phase.iece in the next will it not be folded up in the trade fight? >> the question that a lot of people have in the technology industry is just how much of a national security threat huawei really is. and are they onboard with the
administration's stance? a lot of technology companys that want to still sell to huawei are finding ways around the limitation. a lot of companys that want to buy from huawei also are saying, look, we think that that technology that huawei is doing is low coast and the most reliable. it's what we want for our 5g network. i don't think there's a widespread consensus across the technology industry that huawei respects a significant snuff security threat. i don't think they're buying the argument as -- as forthrightly as the u.s. administration wants to put it across. >> i want to ask you about the comcast peacock has entered the already crowded streaming space in the midst of all the crowd how do they stand out in your opinion? >> i think peacock is a good offeringful we'll see how they get traction in the months and
the quarters ahead. i think it really speaks to the change in the -- in the video lance scape in terms of the traditional bundles going away. and consumers are getting a lot more choice. and that's good. in terms of comcast or disney or netflix, really all of the players here, the key is really to develop differentiated content, have closer relationships with your customers. and we think there's certainly more than enough room for more than one company in the next few years. >> you take a look at the crowded space. there's free. there are some pricing models, $5, $4 pvent 99. there's ad only. subscription only. what do you feel is the best method as you take a look at netflix which is subscription only? >> i think what's going benefit -- you asked mimi colleague what he likes about it.
i think what's interesting is the flexibility in pricing. they come in with all these different tiers. there a lot of people who want entertainment and are willing to sit through ads all the way through a much more premium subscription. comcast has millions of subscribers are going to have access to this without it being a big barrier or another price tag. i'm paying hundreds of dollars a month. don't want to pay more for this service. so it's going to be great for them to have people like me who are already buying, who are already buying comcast, they're going to be able to say, well, these people are users, you know, a few months down the road to show that they've made actually a lot of traction, these are the netflixes of the world. >> i want to get to another big story. and it was amazon trying to make some unroads in india but they were greeted with some anti- amazon sentiment.
how do they start to make some inroads over there? ry think it's a multi-year journey. what the company has been doing so far, makes a lot of sense. they're clearly going to be investing for several years. and the importance if we think about what they're doing is partly around prime. if they're able to deliver a great experience in terms of getting their customers' goods increased contend. so i think amazon is doing the right things there. do i expect this to be a -- a multi-year journey for them. but we think it's an interesting part of the investment story. >> well, thank you to dan flax and tom giles. coming up, taking the rigamarole out of returns. we're talk to the c.e.o. of return link. this is
>> robots in store, social media commerce to beat amazon at its e-commerce game. those are among the big tech games for 2020. steve case weighed in earlier this week. >> amazon is pretty well positioned. wal-mart and amazon are really duking it out. obviously, they have different strategies but they're starting to converge. one was physical. the other was digital. now they are doing a bricks and clicks type of strategy. >> if the point of purchase is easier than ever with strategy, what about returning an item? in our theory called retail transformed we look at how tech transforms the process. .oining us is eduardo velar
tell me more about your business. >> it leverages financial technology to deliver the best return experience to shoppers. >> if you take a look when people return an item, do you take a look at the gauge or the health of the consumer? if they're returning more does that tell you anything? >> we believe that retail is fundamental broken. shoppers have to wait four or five weeks to get their refund. we get shoppers credit immediately so they can buy again the right aitem and get it before returning the wrong item. we look at shopper behavior to make sure it's the right recipe. >> we just came off of some weak returns from kohl's and target. how healthy does the consumer feel at this point? >> we do work with online brands and online is growing phenomenal. when you look at online return
rate those are tripling, the average online return rates hich makes retail -- returning a very good fit. >> what has this contributed to? >> for once, with wal-mart and amazon crushing it, the good news is that director consumer brands have a good opportunity with amazon and wal-mart are technologies se like shopify, affirm or acad yeah. the shopping experience that they're offering, you know, it's pretty much on par with what amazon prime offers. >> are you seeing some of the traditional retailers having to shift the way they do business to cater more to that e-commerce? >> absolutely. absolutely. so modern shoppers' expectations have shaped towards like mediasy, right? everybody wants everything right away. we call them the now customers.
instant gratification is driving that tendency. we see how brands are to meet these shoppers expectations at the point of return. >> i want to get back to your business model. how does the current model in terms of the customer making the return not sufficient enough. how does that lead toe a more poor customer experience? >> we don't believe brands are doing anything malicious from stopping shoppers from returning online. we just think they're not very well equipped. the way they with help brands offer these amazing shopping experience is by giving customers the opportunity to use the merchandise credit to buy again before returning the wrong items. and that results in customers getting the right items and returning the wrong ones. >> you said this is the customer of now. >> yeah, you know, we believe in instant gratification and access to free credit. that's good for the business and the shopper.
we are seeing that consumers are choosing to buy again immediately. and are outspending their return amount. this is very positive economics. >> you've been the c.e.o. there for about four years now. what have been some of the early results that you've seen? >> the first one is the validation that this vision of instantaneously around order returns made sense. also consumers react very poverty to i. we have a 92 score that measures the satisfaction which is high against folks like costco and amazon who are only scoring 80. >> we do work with everlane, untuck it, other voices. >> finally, here i want to talk to you about given that you have such a gain only the retail sector, what do you think is next for this sector as you look out the next few years? >> we've seen the world divided
in two. if if you want to buy something that's more transaction nal then you go to amazon. if you ant to have more of a consumer you would go to a consumer brand that is offering you a set of flavors. we see how the world is just splitting in two. and it's all geared towards the best shopping experience. the fun times ahead. >> well, i might be the customer of now that you're talking about. that was thank you to eduardo vilar, the c.e.o. of returnly. >> gaming is headed to china. teaming up with a group to brings esports to a growing mark. we'll bring you our conversation with superleague c.e.o. ed hand. stick around. this is bloomberg.
market. the alliance will allow superleague to put on video gaming tournaments in more than 700 movie theaters owned and operated by the chinese conglomerate. we sat down with heidi this week. >> what superleague is all about is bringing technology. and when you marry that up with real estate infrastructure like wanda we can mainstream these sports. so two and a half years on the planet. about a billion of them are sitting in china. these are every day competitive gamers. we're talk about that 700-plus theater footprint, their mall foot print. >> investors haven't been too convinced on your growth story as of yet. we've seen the stock plunge more than 70% since you listed it. will this alliance have a material impact on your future performance? >> we're a micro cap company. nascent a completely
space. is it a fa d'or a nish. take the word away from e-sports. it is very much so. but we're talking about the fact that 50% of gamers identify as competitive. so that's 1.3 billion. that 69% have said that they would love to game out of home no different than when i used to go to the arcade as a kid. i wanted that social experience. it's a digitally nascent experience. what is happening right now the stock market is the fact that we are a small cap. it's a little bit of the supply and demand challenge and just educating the market space how gz is a primary way that want to spendtary time. the craze -- spendtary time. $40 isn't on their own game
play. it's on paying to watch other people game. and so when you start to understand that share of wallet and all the opportunities to now give them this e-sports experience that they crave as a competitive gamer, we see that the market space is much larger than anyone can predigit >> how you do convince other advisors that return on investment? because it sounds like you're saying this huge drop in the share price is significantly tied to a perception issue or a p.r. issue for the industry. >> when you look right now, most of the e-sports investments you've seen almost all have been private. they've been mostly at the pro league in team level, very large valuations, and again, early days on how to monetize it. what we found with brands early on, even the game publishers themselves, it's kind of sexy and exciting to focus on the pro level. and now that everyone's become more comfortable with the fact that gamers aren't growing out of gaming, this is more of a lifestyle trend, increasingly
it's multi-generational. all of a sudden we find that brands are coming to us and saying, hey, i've done my investment at the pro level. but now i want to reach the masses. i want every gamer to aspire to be a pro. so i want that gaming mouth on their hands or that turtle beach head set or that coca-cola or the taco bell product on their hand. because i think so many brands realize that such a large segment of their population are gamers, we've gone from the last few years of an education to now being able to start to show how was monetize all the content that we're generating. >> what's the potential for this industry? >> if you look at it and you say that just 10% of the 2.6 billion gamers out there do want to participate in esports. if you think about it, basketball didn't start with the nba. it started in the cul-de-sac on the driveway in the local park. and that's where all great
sports start. and if just 10% of their gamers want to participate in that and let's say that you can monetize them at $5 a month, you're all of a sudden looking at 20 billion plus category not a 3 billion. people don't really know yet how to quantify the value of these sports and the three billion projection is merely just a professional level projection that doesn't speak to the every day person who aspires to compete. >> that was ann hand. and heidi straud watts. activist investor jack mall and silver lake are joining forces to bet on the business of luxury shoppers tax refunds. the investors are putting $1 billion into mergers between far point acquisition and swiss payments company global blue. him. rlly sat down with
and guy johnson on bloomberg market. >> we're evaluating this business 12 times -- enterprise value for quite a conservative valuation business that's growinging -- growing 8%. if you compare it to comparable companies like an eden red, wax lee core or the big payment companies it's a significant discount. for me, it's just thinking about the strategic possibilities for the business. you mentioned it. travel, consumer data. the ability for more consumer marketing. the cross-border payments which is the most lucrative form of payment. this is in the sweet spot for us free tax for us.
>> this is 2.6. do we see more accusations ahead to grow this firm? >> yeah, it's interesting. when i was here a year and a half ago and when i was thinking about it as i was here in the green room, we thought, weapon fintech business. when you were introducing it, i would never imagine we would have the dream team of jab mob, silver lake maybe dan lobe also the c.e.o. of the business jack stern. yes, it is part of the strategy. we don't have to do amine. both jack and i have run public arket m.n.a. plays for investors have been helpful to our customers. so that will be part of the strategy jack has positioned the business so it will be able to do that >> you have dan lobe. baba ve ali bambings --
financial. >> hugely strategic business perhaps the most impressive technology demean the history of the world for those who follow it closely and financial brinks, tremendous expertise and also they bring a customer base that's growing and growing and growing. traveling more. shopping luxury more and more. third point is is investing in 100 billion. they're putting it in incremental 100 million. and additional investors are putting in $100 million. so when you tally all that up it's a billion dollar investment, a real validation of this business and the deal that we struck. >> this is the second major fintech acquisition we've seen this week. what is wall street not getting about technology that is making these up and comers rise quickly? >> fintech is hot. it's payments. it's connecting.
it's connecting banks in the case of plaid and selling to papal. that's exact reason why dan lobe agreed to partner with me in the first place. that guy is a pretty smart guy three decades among the smartest stock pickers in all of wall street. fintech is probably the best company to invest in all of finance right now. as you say, fintech is super hot right now. any resistance from these guys about going public? hasn't exactly been the greatest year for tech companies going public. >> no, not at all. not at all. villser lake has been excited about it the entire time. part of it is, these are public markets people? for six years in 2009, 2015. silver lake has many investments
in public companies and solar winds now. many, many others. they viewed being public as being helpful for a variety of reasons. one is to have additional currency. u have tuck in strategic acquisitions. there wasn't a resistance to going public that i picked up. c.e.o. as tom farley, and guy johnson. that you -- does it for this edition of bloomberg technology. check us out on technology. be sure to follow us on quick take on twitter. this is bloomberg.
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