tv CNN Newsroom CNN June 5, 2011 1:00am-2:00am PDT
later in the night around 7:54 p.m. at a blockbuster there's surveillance video, you can see her then boyfriend, tony lazzarro walking arm in arm to rent couple of movies. what's also noticeable about that picture there's no caylee there. june 18th or june 19th this is when casey anthony's neighbor says that she came over, knocked on the door to borrow a shovel. now according to the neighbor she needs the shovel to take care of some bamboo shoots or something in the backyard. it's also on these days and this is interesting because the neighbor said he never saw casey anthony really use the garage, yet sometime during those days she uses the garage but doesn't pull into it straight, she backs her car into the garage. and this is where casey anthony worked as a shot girl. this is where casey anthony is up on stage, dancing with that
other woman in those pictures. all that during that same time frame when her child is missing and she says she's looking for caylee. >> so joining us right now is holly hughes, criminal defense attorney. windy walsh is in l.a. a human behavior expert and jim clemente, retired fbi agent and advisor writer for criminal mine. he worked on the casey anthony case. drew, an orlando reporter for wdbo radio. he's been in the courtroom. leonard pitts is in washington. a syndicated columnist for "the miami herald" and winner of the pulitzer prize for commentary. you saw some of that drama there and vinnie politan was talking about it. what do you make of casey anthony and what has gone on in this trial? >> well, i mean it's really almost a greek tragedy the way this thing has unfold in court. course once the defense laid out
its opening argument basically saying casey was a victim all of her life, sexual abuse at the hands of her father, caylee drowned in the pool and the father and her covered it up. basically he knew about the death this whole time and played like he didn't, it really took a turn for even more dramatic. lines to get inside the courtroom have been starting at midnight forecourt to get in the next day at 9:00. so, obviously, there's a lot of public interest about this case, and -- >> you're absolutely right. because we've seen the people rushing to get a seat in the morning. i mean really trampling each other to get a seat for this trial. what we're seeing on television, is it even more tense inside that courtroom, drew? >> you know, it really is. there's peaks and valleys. when we had george and cindy anthony on the stand, of course those were very intense cross-examinations by the defense. today we heard from fbi expert and crime scene technician.
those are more technical aspects the state is laying out specific evidence that has to do with things found in her trunk, specifically a hair and some of the thing found in the carpet, in the trunk of that car. so there's definitely peaks and valleys but definitely some high peaks. >> holly hughes, i'm looking at your face as you're watching that. this angers you, doesn't it? >> this is one of the 0 most horrific things we've ever seen. not only is this woman accused of murdering her 2 1/2 little girl but then to get herself out of trouble she throws her entire family under the bus. it's not a bus, it's a tank, okay. she has taken her father and her brother, who she knows didn't do anything to her, and she has sullied their reputation beyond belief. there's millions of people around the world watching this. this just isn't the united states. i have people facebooking me from australia, from down under, asking me questions about this
trial and she has taken her father and her brother and said to the world they did this to me just to get herself out of trouble. if it's really true that this was an accident and that baby drowned in the pool, why is it necessary to say anything beyond that? >> all right. stand by. we have a lot more to come here. casey's mom, cindy anthony was the one who started this whole investigation. she called police in july of 2008, 31 days after her granddaughter was last seen. >> i told you my daughter was missing for a month. i just found her today but i can't find my granddaughter. she just admitted to me that she's been trying to find her her self. there's something wrong. i found my daughter's car today and it smells like there's bean dead body in the damn car. has twice the calcium of the leading yogurt. that's 50% of the daily value. pass on the news and make sure you and everyone you know is getting the calcium they need.
♪ took some crazy risks as a kid. but i was still over the edge with my cholesterol. anyone with high cholesterol may be at increased risk of heart attack. diet and exercise weren't enough for me. i stopped kidding myself. i've been eating healthier, exercising more, and now i'm also taking lipitor. if you've been kidding yourself about high cholesterol...stop. 80% of people who have had heart attacks have high cholesterol. lipitor is a cholesterol lowering medication, fda approved to reduce the risk of heart attack and stroke in patients who have heart disease or risk factors for heart disease. [ female announcer ] lipitor is not for everyone, including people with liver problems and women who are nursing, pregnant or may become pregnant. you need simple blood tests to check for liver problems.
tell your doctor if you are taking other medications or if you have any muscle pain or weakness. this may be a sign of a rare but serious side effect. great ride down. if you have high cholesterol, you may be at increased risk of heart attack and stroke. don't kid yourself. talk to your doctor about your risk and about lipitor.
one of the biggest days of testimony that we've seen in this case -- >> a lot going on pap lot of emotional testimony by cindy anthony. >> the smell in the car was something that i had never -- it was pretty strong. >> the pontiac sunfire. that's the car prosecutors say they believe caylee was once in. >> her favorite dolphins in the car seat. i sprayed the doll. and i sprayed febreze all through the car. >> cindy anthony breaking down as tapes are being played of her 911 calls. >> there's something wrong. it smells like there's been a
dead body in the damn car. that's our sister network hln covered this. holly hughes let's talk about cindy anthony now. what do you make of that? what does that tell you about the grandmother here? >> what it tells me right up front she knew something wasn't right with this story. she says my daughter tells me the babysitter took the little girl. something is wrong. i found my daughter's car and it smells like there's bean dead body in that car. right away she is keying in on the fact that this story doesn't make sense. i don't believe it. if she truly believed that that little girl was off with the babysitter why would you even mention the car. why would you talk about a dead body. she knew in her gut and couldn't accept it. >> tim clemente and advisor and writer to "criminal minds." when you hear her saying and other people saying that car smells like death does that tell you anything?
>> yes. it's a very dissing tinct smell. she knew it ining tinctively that was death. another thing is the hair they found in the car, post mortem banding can only come off a dead body and not somebody who died in the last 15 minutes but somebody who had died and started to decompose. if you look at cindy's behavior it's very consistent with somebody who is under duress. somebody who just really found out that something terrible happened as opposed to when you look at casey's behavior and listen to her when she makes 911 calls, very, very matter of factually that she states things. it's not somebody who is under duress and just found out that something is wrong. >> i want to go to drew real quickly because he's been in the courtroom. when cindy anthony is on the stand, and when she broke down, take us inside the courtroom. >> well, it was really an emotional moment in that courtroom.
that's when they played the third of three 911 calls after casey tells her her daughter has been missing for 31 days and no one had seen her for 21 days. cindy anthony puts her face in her hands as this three minute call success played. casey anthony tears are rolling down her face. at one point the defense tried to play more of that tape and cindy pretty much begged the defense not to play it because it was such an emotional tape for her to hear. >> leonard pitts as the world is watching this, especially americans and you're doing commentary on this, what does this say collectively about why people are so interested in this, the cindy anthony's emotion, casey anthony's apparent lying as they are saying on the stand, what does this mean? is this visceral for people. >> it's an ability to project yourself into the situation.
the bizarreness of the circumstances is what tends to draw people in. to pull back from this individual case for a moment, this sort of idea of the news as sort of a movie of the week is not new or is not singular to the anthony trial. >> look at this. this is "people" magazine. the cover of "people" magazine. many other magazines and newspapers and record ratings for some television networks that are covering this. >> it's easy to forget that at the core of this was a little girl who was murder and suffered heinously apparently at the hand of her mother. it's sort of as if all this sorry machinery gets attached to it and at the bottom it's a very simple if bizarre set of circumstances. we saw the same thing with the o.j. simpson trial in which there was a lot of media interest, a lot of people
brought a lot of baggage but at the smpl core of this there was a man who was alleged and credibly believed to have killed his wife. >> stand by. some of the most dramatic moments in this case came from casey anthony herself. the jury got to hear several hours of recorded phone calls between casey and her family. up next we go to casey's reaction at seeing herself and how these calls could affect the trial. >> do you think after this long she would still be local? >> if there's a possibility. >> what's your gut telling you right now? >> telling me that she's okay. >> okay. and your gut tells you that she's close or she's hiding? >> she's not far. i know in my heart she's not far. i can feel it. fiber one. almost tastes like one of jack's cereals. uh, forgot jack's cereal. [ jack ] what's for breakfast? uh, try the number one!
i've never heard of that. [ wife ] it's great. it's a sweet honey cereal, you'll love it. yeah, this is pretty good. are you guys alright? yeah. [ male announcer ] half a days worth of fiber. not that anyone has to know. fiber beyond recognition. fiber one. not that an♪ e has to know. ♪ ♪ ♪ introducing purina one beyond
frickin' field day with this. >> they are coddling her. >> they are coddling her because this is a confused family who can't remember whose problem is whose. to listen her in those jailhouse recordings i see her eyes darting in a way showing she's analyzing. how do i answer to that? she's not a grieving mother oh, my goodness i don't want an awful tragedy. it's how do i get myself off. >> yeah, i agree. i think she's doing everything she can to sort of think in the moment. she's not recounting something that happened before. but she's creating right at that time to try to sell the story to her parents. >> holly, you say it's almost like the usual suspects. >> that's exactly what is it. what she's done is take little tiny bits of her reality, like jeffrey hopkins. that was a kid she went to grade
school with. he takes the stand. now he's supposedly the one who introduced her to zenaida, that was his girlfriend at one time and his little son zachary was baby sat by her. he gets on the stand and says i haven't seen her since grade school. i don't know what you're talking about. i never had a son. i never had anything. so what we're seeing here is she's crazy all right, not legally insane but crazy as a fox as you and i were talking about earlier because she takes a little bit of reality and weaves it in and that's what will cook her goose in this trial. >> she's create ad fantasy and has chose zwroen live in it which is pathetic. it won't save her on trial. it's going to cook her goose. >> this is what i want to know. i want to know, drew, when you're sitting in the courtroom and watching the face, when she's watching herself, what's the expressions on people's faces?
>> well, you know, there have been times that she just sits stone faced and doesn't really show any emotion. kind of stares into the computer screen. she's watching these videos as they are being played in a monitor right in front of it. it's like she's looking through the screen. early in the trial the jury focused on the judge and lawyers. as these videos were played in monitors right in front of them i noticed them looking up more at casey anthony and kind of trying to digest the two different casey, the one that she portrays herself in court and the one that she's in these videos where she's telling her dad there's still hope, telling her mom there's still hope caylee can still be alive what the while the defense admits she knew she was dead. >> holly says she's crazy like a fox. i have to ask this. is there an insanity defense?
is she insane? >> no, no. >> no, because of the kind of lying, the definition of the insanity is an inability to understand what they did was wrong. but her lying is all about covering her butt because she clearly knew what she did was wrong. it's highly manipulative. and by the way, don, when the jury looks to her face what they are looking for are emotions. they are looking for remorse. they are looking for grieving. they are looking for loss. when they see her stone faced this is not helping her case. >> don, you know what we really notice about her, because what i've noticed is when she shows emotion it's when it's about her. her mother was testifying oh, she's such a good mother. that's when we see casey crying because you're talking about casey. when people are up there describing a little girl being missing she's sitting there stone faced. when you hear her own words being played back and what's detrimental to her is not the
words it's the attitude. i can say to you sitting right here don, i love your tie. or i could go don i love your tie. i used the exact same words but different affect. we're seeing the real casey anthony. go ahead. ten seconds and then break. >> a traditional case of a false allegation of child abduction where the parent actually killed the child. i mean that is what we have here. >> leonard, get in real quickly. >> the word for all that you're describing is narcissism. >> definitely a feature of narcissism. >> stand by. first other important news today to tell you about including this. gunfire ringing out in the streets of syria but protesters now vow they won't be stopped. one of the biggest wildfires
burning across arizona and no sign of it being contained. ♪ hello sunshine, sweet as you can be ♪ [ female announcer ] wake up to sweetness with honey nut cheerios cereal. kissed with real honey. and the 100% natural whole grain oats can help lower your cholesterol. you are so sweet to me. bee happy. bee healthy.
opened fire on protesters. human rights activists say 80 people were shot to death. the demonstrators had rallied to protest the alleged killing of dozens of children by security forces. the violence isn't silencing the protests. thousands gathered for funerals for the victims of friday's gunfire. a source tells cnn yemen's wounded president is now in saudi arabia. president ali abdullah saleh is being treated at riyadh hospital for friday's attack on his presidential plas. four people were killed when the palace's mosque was she would. yemen's vice president is taking over the duties in the president's absence. government troops have been battling tribal militia but a tentative truss is said to be holding. ilyas kashmiri reportedly
was killed by a drop air strike friday night in pakistan but the u.s. and pakistani government say they have not been able to confirm the report. ilyas kashmiri has been described as one of the most dangerous men in the world. this fire, you can see how large it is. it spans anywhere from 30 miles plus south to north. >> multiple wildfires have burned more than 250,000 acres across the state of arizona, the largest, the walo fire is in the eastern central part of the state. more than 1,000 people are bat technology blaze. no containment. 2,500 people have been evacuated. smoke and ash is reaching albuquerque. a long time u.s. diplomat, lawrence eagleburger has died. he rose to the post of secretary of state. he served american presidents from richard nixon to george h.w. bush. mr. bush today called eagleburger a tireless and dedicated patriot.
sunday marks the 30th anniversary of aids. u.s. health officials first reported it as a rare form of pneumonia on june 5th, 1981. today i spoke an african-american woman who made several panels for aids memorial quilt. she herself is hiv positive and tonight she's what matters. >> what i do when i make the quilt panels i make them so in the statistics where we hear about it's 30 million people every day or whatever, each panel represents a person. >> right. >> and i made the guilt so that we'll know it's not just a number. this was a person in my life that i love. >> this is ricardo, someone you loved? >> yes. >> let's take a look at this one. which one is this one. >> i'll take ricardo. >> this is a brother and a sister. >> this is my mom and my uncle. and this talks, shows pictures
when they were kids. as they've grown up. >> you seem you get a little emotional when you talk about this. >> i do. i do. not only is it putting a face to the number, but it's also a healing process. and what we have to do is we've got to get away from the fear and the stigma that keeps us from talking about hiv, because that's what continues to keep it ramping in our communities because it's such a shh-shh thing. >> sanjay gupta will have more on this significant milestone and aids history. watch his special aids turns 30, sunday morning at 7:30 eastern right here on cnn. next back to our special report, the casey anthony trial. what would you do if your child was missing? the prosecution witness who met casey after her daughter went missing paints a picture far different from what you might expect. >> what do you recall abou meeting miss anthony on that
date? >> she seemed like a fun party girl. somebody who would get along well with our group of friends. , and the pollen outside. but with 24-hour zyrtec®, i get prescription strength relief from my allergy symptoms. it's the brand allergists recommend most. ♪ lilly and i are back on the road again, where we belong. with zyrtec® i can love the air®. [ male announcer ] get up to $6 in savings on zyrtec® products at zyrtectv.com.
while you were out in classes she was out looking for her daughter? >> no. >> did she at any time ask you for any help in trying to find her daughter? >> no. >> was there ever a time when you were at fusion with the defendant that she participated in a contest? >> yes, sir. >> what type of a contest was that? >> it was a hot body contest. >> the nights that you were at fusian with the defendant, what can you tell the jury about her overall demeanor? >> she was partying and having a good time. >> when you say partying, drinking? >> drinking, yes, sir. >> dancing? >> yes, sir. >> did she ever display any emotion to you that would indicate that she was upset about anything? >> no. >> did she appear happy? >> yes. >> have you since found out that caylee was dead during this time? >> yes, i have. joining me now holly hughes. wendy walsh is in los angeles a human behavior expert.
tim clemente, retired fbi special agent and advisor/writer for "criminal minds." leonard pits, syndicated columnist for "the miami herald". drew, is he a creditable witness on the stands when you saw him? >> are you talking about her friend? you know the prosecution really rolled out a parade of her friends in the beginning of this trial and all of them really had the same message that casey anthony had no signs that anything was wrong during that month that her daughter hadn't been seen. she was going out to bars, partying, sleep over, renting movies with her boyfriend. so, going to a fourth of july celebration. not letting on that anything was wrong. that's what the defense theory is she was so sexually abused so, physically and mentally abused that she stashes her pain deep back in the back of her
head and can act like servicing okay. >> tim clemente. >> in my opinion, that behavior is something completely different. what it actually is is that she's in a position where finally she's free. she has released the burden of the one thing that she couldn't get rid of legally which was her daughter. and the fact that the daughter was now gone, she could go out and party unhindered by her responsibilities in life. >> go ahead, wendy. >> don, you know, it's very common with mothers who kill their child to have a kind of idealized fantasy life in their mind that they want to lead. there were reports she got a tattoo that said beautiful life. she entered a hot body contest. she was the living life of a party girl, lying she had a career, where she was living or working, lining through her teeth but living this idealized life she wanted free from her daughter. >> that's absolutely right.
what we see is the night that her daughter goes missing, the very day, june 16th, 2008, that anyone lasts sees her. what does she do? she goes to tony lazzarro. her mother has to track her down through her friend amy. and drag her out of there and say you're not going anywhere until you tell me where that baby is. you're coming home right now. the day that little girl went missing, she went and moved in with tony lazzarro that was her brand new life. her freedom. >> go ahead. >> i was just going say that amy was a key witness for the prosecution because she said they had these conversations, her and casey where casey would complain that she couldn't really have the social life that she wanted to have because she had to stay home with caylee. prosecutors really wanted to point that out, that could be a possible motive for what she ended up doing. >> let's be honest about this.
we talked about casey anthony, good looking woman. you see the dress there. you know, everything that makes a good story. less be quite honest. she's a white woman. there's more interest in cases because there are thousands ever kids who go missing. >> every day. >> go ahead, leonard. >> i was just sitting here thinking, don, at the risk of being the skunk at the garden party with all due deference to this singular tragedy, if caylee was a boy of any race or living anywhere we would not be having this discussion and this story not be the national and international sensation it is. >> i agree. don, i totally agree. i want to add that this story, i was a news reporter back during the o.j. simpson trial and it remind me a lot of the o.j. simpson trial. had it not bean famous athlete, had his wife not bean beautiful
blonde, had there not been stories of domestic violence in the past and maybe a young boyfriend that she had, the media wouldn't have been excited about it. the fact that we have nightclub pictures of a beautiful girl and yes, there's a race piece to it, a beautiful white girl in nightclubs in florida, whose just, you know, partying and a parade of boyfriends and the illusion of promiscuity this is what's making america riveted to the story. >> lie after lie after lie is what we're learning casey anthony told friends, family even investigators. jurors heard several hours of police interviews. listen. >> everything you told sues a lie. every single thing. and you can keep sitting here and keep telling us the same thing and getting constantly over and over again we're disproving everything you tell us. you're giving us misinformation. everything you're telling us, okay.
it needs to end. s i wonder... what's left behind? [ female announcer ] introducing purifying facial cleanser from neutrogena® naturals. developed with dermatologists... it's clinically proven to remove 99% of dirt and toxins and purify pores. and with natural willowbark it contains no dyes, parabens or harsh sulfates. dirt and toxins do a vanishing act and my skin feels pure and healthy. [ female announcer ] new purifying facial cleanser from the new line of neutrogena naturals.
>> we all got hear it. >> she's out there. her rotting body is starting to decompose. >> she doesn't crack. >> that's some of the best evidence that the prosecution has. >> they busted her on the fictional zani the nanny. >> she says i don't work here. >> what would inspire her to lie at this point? >> so many lies. >> can't figure it out. i have to say great coverage by our sister networks hln and also "in session" on trutv. leonard pitts you were making a point before the break. >> this is what i call the damsel in distress syndrome. we're talking about a racial bias and in gender bias. there's a case to be made looking at it in a larger context, there's a dies be made there's a sexism thing going on that the only time we see this
huge spotlight of national/international coverage when there's a young and white woman who is perceived as being a danger. reinforces the stereotype of the helpless damsel in distress. >> let's not forget, though, this is the victim. this little, beautiful face right there, it's a little girl. >> no argument. >> we shouldn't forget that. >> not the only victim. when you look at those grandparents on stand. when you look at george and cindy anthony. when you hear him talk about how i helped change her diapers and potty train her. when you see cindy anthony completely fall apart on the stand, don, she's leaning forward. she cannot hold herself up physically. her body is racked with sobs. they are victims too. whatever they did or didn't do to help the investigation these are grieving grandparents. they raised that little girl. she lived in their house that beautiful 2-year-old girl we see singing "you are my sunshine"
that's they're grand baby. >> tim clemente, you worked on this case and i know there are certain things you can't reveal about it. but from the evidence that's in public now, what do you think of casey anthony and where this is going to end? >> don, you know, obviously that's going to be a question for the jury to decide in the end. she's innocent until proven guilty. however, when you look at her leading her parents and investigators on a wild goose chase, looking up chloroform, the incredible lies that she told, the false job, the false nanny, the false allegations of child abduction, the post mortem banding on the hair and the smell in her car all those things are very, very damning. her behavior just screams out, her behavior during this entire time just screams out that it's very consistent with innocent behavior. >> again, tim, i'll ask you again because i know you know about this case and again as i
said there are certain things that you can't, but is she for lack of a better term toast here? >> the investigate kwors that worked this case directly and investigators that work all child abduction cases dove into it 24/7 for the entire time until they realized that she was actually killed by her mother. they did everything they could to find this little girl. unfortunately that wasted resources because, obviously, casey was leading them on a wild goose chase even by her own admissions now. it waste ad lot of resources. there are other kids out there that actually were missing at the same time. in that whole time period. it took police sources away from them. >> don, can i jump in here and answer your question. is she the east? -- toast? get out the butter and jam. her own words she said it best, one of her girlfriends testified last week they are driving in
the car, casey gets a telephone call. she answers the phone and says oh, no i can't come out and hang out with you my car is broken down. the very car she's driving, mine you. she disconnects the call. throws the phone down and says oh, i'm such a good liar. i would have loved to have seen the jury's face when they hear the defendant bragging about what a great liar she is. this isn't something she did because she's a victim of sexual abuse and forced into this, she's proud of this skill. butter it up, baby. >> i'll keep you guys around. we'll do more on this. we'll talk about the fascination with this case. this looks like people chasing after their favorite celebrity or going to a sporting event but they are actually racing to get a spot in the courtroom. our panel is is going to weigh in.
there's another way litter box dust:e purina tidy cats. tidy cats premium line of litters now works harder on dust. and our improved formulas neutralize odors better than ever in multiple-cat homes. so it's easier to keep your house smelling just the way you want it. purina tidy cats. keep your home smelling like home.
back in 1990s believed that aids was a punishment from god. when i positively tested for hiv, i was oh, my god how could this happen to me? i fasted and prayed for years hoping that i would be healed. when i went public, i lost my job. my husband lost his job. the landlord wanted us out of his house. the stigma of terrible. i realized that i had been wronged. my mission is to change people's attitudes about hiv. >> all that you need is accurate, correct information. >> i started to talk to people. hiv is not a moral issue, it's a virus. i do a lot of counselling. when i'm helping somebody else, i want them to know that you can rise above this. the 48 children at the center,
most of them saw their parents die of aids. my hiv status brings some kind of a bone. i provide the morally love and all their basic needs. hiv is making me a better person. we want to be there for people. so if we have it, we shout it out. it's what i want to do because it's what i'm meant to do. god has his own ways of healing. for me i'm healed. with honey nut cheerios cereal. kissed with real honey. and the 100% natural whole grain oats can help lower your cholesterol. you are so sweet to me. bee happy. bee healthy.
clemente in l.a. a retire fbi special agent and advisor and writer for "criminal minds." drew is from orlando, a reporter for wdbo radio and then leonard pitts washington syndicated columnist for "the miami herald". drew, i don't know if you've had a chance to witness any of this, but is it that sort of behavior, obviously the judge does not allow that to happen in court. >> people have been very well behaved inside the courtroom. what we've learned from this trial there's an intense interest on exactly what's happening inside the courtroom. the arguments back and forth between lawyers. we've seen one by one the local tv stations go wall to wall and broadcast the entire proceedings that happen. there have been no outbursts in court. judge perry runs a very tight ship inside the courtroom and promised any out burst, anyone that does any out burst 180 days in jail. people have been well-behaved inside. there's an intense interest on this case.
>> tim clemente, you probably have taken a number of these types of cases to court. what's the fascination with this? do you fine anything different with this particular trial? >> well, john, i've worked hundreds, literally hundreds of child abduction cases. this only happen in certain case when is the victims fit a certain stereotypical type. elizabeth smart. you know, these are cases that have garnered international interest in the media. it's the media response that causes, i think, these people to respond in such an amazingly ridiculous, inappropriate way. i think it doesn't happen inside the courtroom. that's not what justice is all about. but outside we're seeing this kind of media built up frenzy. >> that's a good question for leonard pitts. is it the tail wagging the dog. is at any time media causing this? what's is going on? >> i think the media is exacerbating it.
they are playing this movie of the week syndrome. i think largely as a result we've sort of cot what this idea of what entertainment is. used to be entertainment was somebody singing or dancing or stealing joke or doing some dramatic acting. now we come to the point that entertainment is those things but trials and tragedies like this, from a lindsay lohan with her drunk driving problems, a paris hilton to something more significant than this. it's not viewed as a tragedy that i want to stay up to date on, ate celebrity thing. it's an act of entertainment. something we want to follow in that way and i think that says a lot about media and says a lot about us as american people. >> i'm going ask you this holly who are taking their vacations to go down to this trial and it's mostly women. you see them high fiving each other.
this is a real life -- this is a tragedy but to them it's spectator. >> it is. you know what it remind me of. back in the day when they did public lynchings and beheading, something in us likes our train wreck. why we rubber neck at a car accident. >> the media is the calling card that let's people know where the show is playing. we have this urge inside all of us. we're not far away from being hunters and gatherers. a little bit of violence lives in all of us. it's played out in our games and movies and safeways. like holly said this is going to watch a public hanging from the middle ages. there is this lurid attraction to fining out. the trial here i don't think is about whether she did it or not, it's about whether she's going get the death penalty or life. >> leonard, dew point to jump in? >> i agree the impulse exists in
us as human beings. media exploits it and feeds upon it, frankly for commercial gain and that becomes the thing that self perpetuates and, you know, makes itself worse all the time. this is the bottom. >> listen, i want to get our viewers in here real quick. let's see. this one is for tim. did casey anthony discuss incest or is it a poor defense tactic. that's for your tim? >> well, when the defense made that statement in court it was the first time anyone had heard anything like that. >> okay. someone says why would a molested child leave her own daughter alone with this quote evil grandpa and then praise him greatest dad ever. please. >> that's exactly right. it makes no sense. to back charge just a minute. if you listen to topping what we heard was these horrible allegations. no proof. no witness names. none of.