tv Anderson Cooper 360 CNN June 14, 2011 11:00pm-12:00am PDT
good evening, everyone. we begin tonight keeping him honest with newt gingrich and new questions being raised about how he's made money and how his nonprofit business has raised it and spent it. allegations that way mr. gingrich set up his various enterprises may have at the least blurred the loin separating profit from non-profit and charity from politics. since he's been out of public office, newt gingrich has built something of an empire. he has a consulting business, a
production company which makes films, dvds, a health policy think tank, a political committee, spanish and english language news site. some are non-profit and some are for profit. but tonight we're focusing on two businesses. the consulting firm gingrich communications and the non-profit he cofound calling renewing american leadership or real. gingrich's team denies any wrongdoing. we want to say that from the outset. today a producer from abc news which first reported the story tried to get gingrich to answer questions about the allegations concerning the relationship between these two organizations. here's what our cameras picked up this morning. he told the producer he'd get back to her in a minute and then walked away. then he went on to make a speech and then he' voided her. almost an hour later we watched as the producer caught up to him outside. >> cover the speech. cover 14 million -- >> sir i'm just trying to ask you a question about the non-profit charity that you founded -- >> i'm not concerned about that. the american people aren't concerned about that. try covering the speech. >> are you not concerned about
the fact that your charity you founded has given $200,000 to your own company? >> well, we too tried to get mr. gingrich to talk to us. the campaign telling us he's unavailable today but released a statement denation any wrongdoing. so let me try to explain what this is all about. it's confusion and complex. this is the web site for a non-profit organization called renewing american leadership, real. its mission, which is also listed on its federal tax return is "to preserve america's judeo christian heritage by defending and promoting the four pillars of american civilization, faith, family, freedom and free enterprise". they ask for donations from people saying "we are dedicated to educating, organizing, training and mobilizing people of faith to renew american self-government and america's role in the world". you look at the web site today and you'll see little mention of mr. gingrich outside of old articles he's written. but we looked in kwoog google archive from the state. this lists mr. gingrich as the charity's co-founder and has a link at the top to buy one of his many books. until gingrich began running for president, the site featured pictures of him, more gingrich books and dvds. according to abc news some of the links were there as earlier
as last week. but real is registered as a charity, a non-profit taking donations distributing them for the public good. yet an audit reveals "gingrich communications inc., a company-owned by speaker newt gingrich provided consulting services to manage the operations of real during 2009 and 2010 totalling 144,4606 -- and $76,000 respective. in other words, a non-profit paid for by newt gingrich paid a for profit company-owned by newt gingrich $200,000. according to abc news, those payments were never dis -- disclosed on the charity's tax forms. we contacted a man named pastor
jim garlow whose taken over the running of real from gingrich's spokesperson. pastor garlow told abc news real also had to pay gingrich communications full price for books and dvds they would sell. gingrich communications has denied that saying they got them at cost. a spokeswoman for the pastor told us the same thing. they toll the pastor as saying "my concern was, is there any way we can get these a whole lot cheaper". meaning books and dvds. he goes on we couldn't and we didn't. pastor garlow's spokesperson told us that it was in her word a misstatement. there are other questions about real that are potentially damaging to newt gingrich and may even make this a legal case. real's 2009 tax return showed that real spent 86% of what it took in. 86% on postage and mail service. that is on developing mailing lists and soliciting donations.
now, add to that what it paid gingrich communications to run it and other expenses and you've got practically nothing left for what its actual stated mission was. there are nothing critics say except a mailing list of potential gingrich supporters. that's what they're saying ended up from this organization. you've basically got a list of donors. now, and this is the key, gingrich's new campaign spokesman tells us the charity did in fact turn over that list to the campaign. rick tyler who was paid through gingrich communications to run real told abc the same thing. if that's true and if the campaign did not pay for that, that very well might be a violation of federal election law. as for the rest here, what the campaign said in the statement today, "both real and gingrich communications took great care to make sure all resources were being used legally and ethically". they went on to acknowledge "the payments from real to gingrich communications were perfectly normal and common practice and the books were sold at cost with zero profit by gingrich communications or newt on the sale". joining me now is cnn political
producer shannon travis who's been reporting on this for us and melanie sloan of citizens for responsibility and ethics in government. shannon you were there when gingrich was first asked about this report today. did it seem as though he and his team had any idea what these questions were all about or not? >> yes, and no, anderson. it was a bizarre exchange when i was there. i say yes because in the beginning, you saw in the video that speaker gingrich kind of avoided, kind of brushed off the producer who kept tossing the questions to him. he went over and conferred with an aide. an aide then came back and said, well, he doesn't know what you're talking about. but then moments later in the last bit of that clip that you played,ett the speaker said the american people don't care about that. this is not something they're concerned about. so it seemed as if possibly he knew at one point but then didn't know. so it's really unclear. a really bizarre exchange. >> melanie, help me sort through this. this could be much ado about nothing. but based on what's been reported here, what do you see?
what do you see as the potential problem? >> well, i don't think it's much ado about nothing. i think this is quite a problem for mr. gingrich. basically he's got a charity that was set up allegedly for a charitable purpose but it isn't actually engaging in any charitable activities. instead the main purpose of the charity seems to be fundraising and preparing a mailing list for newt gingrich and paying gingrich communications money and buying books from newt gingrich. so really it's a private benefit. >> what's wrong with them paying, if mr. tyler from gingrich communications was temporarily working for a year or two running real, what's wrong with him earning a salary? >> there's nothing wrong with him earning a salary. but they should have listed on the organization's 990 the fact that gingrich communications was a related entity to real and that they were in fact paying that money to gingrich communications. and neither of those things is included in fact on the 990. knowing and willful misstatements on your 990 is in fact a crime. >> to you is the big issue that
this charity, which was about promoting judeo christian values and educating people essentially if it's true that according to their filing, 86% i think it was of their costs were for mailing lists which were essentially getting donors, and then this money that they paid, it doesn't sound like they ended up with much money to actually do much of what they said they were going to do. >> well, i think the pastor admitted that they actually hadn't done any of the things they said they were going to do. that was all what they planned to do. but right now all they were really doing was fundraising and in fact buying books and cds of newt gingrich. this brings of course the next problem which is a pretty serious one in campaign finance world which is that the mailing list that was created was then given to the gingrich campaign. now, mailing lists, that's a little bit of a murky area of the law. but the fact is, a mailing list can be an in-kind contribution to a campaign. and because the charity is a corporation, a 501-c-3
corporation, that's banned from making any kind of contributions to the campaign. so basically the mailing list is an in-kind corporate contribution to the gingrich campaign and that's prohibited. that's a campaign finance violation. >> but i mean, if newt gingrich has been involved in this charity, what is wrong with them handing over a mailing list of people who are like-minded or who like newt gingrich or have donated money to him in the past? you're saying if they handed that over to gingrich communications or to the campaign without charging them for it, that's a possible violation? >> that is a violation. in fact, because the charity is a corporation, corporations are prohibited from making any contributions to campaigns. so the mailing list would be a contribution to the campaign that violates campaign finance law. in addition, it's a real problem for the charity to just be giving its assets away to a political organization. this is the kind of mixing of charitable and political organizations that the irs really frowns upon. and of course, mr. gingrich should know better having gotten
into so much hot water over such similar kinds of activities in the late 9 late 90s. >> if it was given. we don't know whether or not they were charged for it. that's a really critical -- >> there's a question about whether newt gingrich has the fire in the belly to run and whether he can actually raise enough money to run for president, whether he's a viable financial candidate. but also i mean, we've seen recently in recent days as most of his senior staff just back walked out on him last week. the comments blasting representative paul ryan's medicare proposal plan didn't earn him a whole lot of fans with a lot of conservatives. i can't imagine this coming at a worse time for his campaign, anderson. >> shannon travis, i appreciate it. melanie sloan, what is the next step on this? is there an organization that
actually is going to look into this beyond reporters? >> well, i feel confident that irs will take a harder look at this. again, mr. gingrich is a known quantity to the irs and they really frown on the mixing of political and am pain activities and charitable activities. and this charity which really bears none of the hallmarks of a real charity, doesn't seem to be involved in any real activities and in fact it's sending misleading fundraisers to people asking for money to help a charity that doesn't have a charitable purpose. >> mel nix thank you. shannon travis as well. to house speaker gingrich and other candidates, bill maher, i spoke to him earlier tonight. >> so bill, you've been pretty hard object field of gop candidates so far. i think you said at one point that you've seen and i quote more appealing lineups on an episode of "law and order special victims unit". did he change your mind at all
after last night's debate? >> no. of course it got even worse. it's tough sledding there. as a progressive, as a sane person, just to watch that, to see that republicanism has -- it's really become a religion. and when i say religion, i mean they just have a series of baseless assertions that they cleave to. you know, and it's like if there was just one sane person in that room to give perspective. but there wasn't. so you have seven people up there who are all claiming things like, you know, things we know don't work like reducing taxes will somehow magically increase revenue and somehow by keeping the profit motive in the healthcare system that's going to solve that problem. so you know, it's very hard for someone to watch that debate who is not in that bubble. and i am not in the bubble. >> if you had to vote for one of them, is there one you would vote for? who would you vote for? if you had to pick?
>> i'd vote for ron paul if i had to pick. i mean, ron paul is at least not a panderer. he's sincere. he's got right ideas about getting our troops home. and i like ron paul. i think he's cut from a different cloth than the rest of those people who are of course selling their soul to the corporate interests who back them. and who have just horrible society-killing ideas about america. and either don't know what's real or don't care. >> what do you mean by society-killing? >> well, like -- like tim pawlenty and every one of them competing for this idea oftenly reducing taxes when we are on the one hand screaming about how we're in debt and then on the other hand the answer is to somehow decrease revenues. you know, they all act like god created the world in january of 2009, and then barack obama completely screwed it up. >> a lot of people thought
michele bachman, who i know you've had some choice words for over the months and the years, did well last night. would you agree? >> of course not. she did well by what standard? because she's able to speak and complete sentences? yeah, i heard that analysis. oh, she was very effective. she spoke in short sentences and was good. you know, i mean, the standards are so low. let's be honest. we're judging her against sarah palin. that's what it is. and yes, compared to sarah palin, she does look better. because sarah palin comes off as a complete air head like a ditzy housewife, a stewardess i think i called her in the past. whereas michele bachman actually works. sarah palin is not a worker. obviously michele bachmann, she's a lawyer, she's in congress, she studies, she gets her facts wrong but at least she found like someone who is a professional in her field. so compared to sarah palin, yes. big winner. actually the big winner was mitt romney, i think, because people are getting used to him. and that's what they have to do.
at a certain point a lot of this -- sorry. >> what how did you think about newt gingrich? there was that whole issue of loyalty for the potential muslim appointees came up. how did you think he did given his problem with his campaign? >> well, you know, i noticed at the end when he was waving it looked like he was waving to the people who used to run his campaign, good bye. look. newt gingrich, i said a long time ago, has this reputation as somehow he's the professor in the republican party. he's the idea man. no, he's a nut. and i think people are now coming around to this, that just because he says things that are out of the box country mean they're smart or clever or workable. what is this you're referring to that i may have missed this part. >> we actually have the sound bite. let's just play that. >> we did this in dealing with the nazis and we did this in dealing with the the communists and it was controversial both times.
and both times we discovered after awhile, you know, there are some genuinely bad people who would like to infiltrate our country. and we've got to have the guts to stand up and say no. >> he was talking about special interviews for muslim appointees to a government based on herman cane's statement. >> right. well, you know, newt never misses an opportunity to bring the nazis into it. he compared obama to the nazis at one point. he said his administration was more dangerous and more of a threat to us than the nazis or the soviet union. so when newt starts trotting out the nazis, you really can't put a lot of money on that. >> going to take a quick break. part two of of our conversation with bill mary. we're going to talk about anthony weiner. >> are you as passionate in the sack as your about politics? >> him and jane lynch reading out the text. let us know we're on facebook and twitter @ anderson cooper.
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. part two in my conversation with bill maher. he has a lot to say these days about democrats, namely anthony weiner and his sexting scandal. >> in a world of politicians doing everything from having babies with the maid, leaving their wives on their death beds and hiking the appalachian trail, you're guilty of the most humiliating indiscretion of all. you didn't get any! [ laughter ] >> talk about democrats being ineffectual. >> now my conversation with bill maher. >> so billers apt any weiner has provided you with lots and lots of material recently. i don't know if you've been praying to the comedy gods for this. i just want to play a bit of a dramatic reading you did with jane lynch who i'm a huge fan of. we can only play a bit because it's difficult to play the whole sting because you're actually just -- you're reading the
text -- the tweets that anthony weiner and various women sent back and forth. so let's play that. >> ridiculous bulge in my shorts now. want to see? >> yeah. can you send a pic i want to sit on your [ bleep ] so bad right now. >> geez, i'm rushing. let me take a quick pic. >> awesome. how do i get it? right here? >> it won't go away and now i'm taking pics of it making me still -- >> i'll hit you later. >> you get your [ bleep ] to work and save my country from these [ bleep ] republicans. >> we had to bleep out some of that. that as you were saying before the break, that's one of those moments you're happy on hbo. >> yes, that's a wonderful thing about hbo is we can do things once in awhile that come down the pike that absolutely nobody else can do. i have to reiterate. that is the verbatim text. we were not ad libbing in any way. we were doing a dramatic reading. but that is anthony weiner's
exchange with that blackjack dealer in las vegas. >> do you think he should resign? >> thank god he's in rehab, anderson. >> at this point yes. not because i think he did anything so incredibly awful. i mean, dick cheney used to go out and shoot birds by the hundreds that were like in a cage. to me that's a lot more psychotic than anything anthony weiner ever did. but the point is, this is america. we have to live in reality. >> dick cheney wasn't shooting birds in a cage. he was hunting. >> he was not hunting, anderson. there's a difference between hunting which i'm not a big fan of either and when you go out into this controlled situation where they -- i forget what they do to the birds but they do something where they can't fly. it's the equivalent of shooting fish in a barrel. and yes, look it up. that's what he did. >> all right. >> he shot and killed an incredible number of birds for
absolutely no reason than a blood lust. >> why could you think he should resign? >> because people won't let it go. because you're asking me about it. this is how it works in america. when you do something unspeakable, you know, like be horny, you have to go away. then he can come back. but until he goes away, they're not going to let it go and it's going to be a huge distraction. i mean, the democrats were sort of on a roll when this happen. and it completely threw them off their game and changed the subject. for the good of the party which means in my view the good of the country he needs to go away right now, let it calm down. nobody's going to leave him alone until he does. and then the story will be a comeback which america also loves. go to rehab, whatever that is. i'm kind of with charlie sheen on that one. it's just a hotel you go to for a week where somebody says, you were a bad person. how do you feel? until you nod and they let you go home. but then when he's -- in a year or two people will forget about it because there'll be eight other scandals that will happen in the intervening time. and people will kind of forget, you know, these things come quickly and they go quickly. a year from now people will be like, what did weiner do?
it was something with his penis. i can't remember. whatever. and then he can come back. people love both stories. but first you have to go away. yes, he has to go away. >> nancy pelosi has now called for him to resign. but it's the first person she's actually called for that on the democratic side. she's never like dollar bill jefferson, you know, who was found with i think it was $10,000 in his freezer down in new orleans. she never called for him to step down. >> right. >> others who have done things, charlie rangel. and she's never called for anybody but she has called for weiner to resign. >> you can never really figure out the rhyme or reason why somebody has to go and somebody can stay. as many people have brought up, why did david -- why does david vitter continue to serve? he was calling prostitutes from his cell phone in the senate. you know, bill clinton toughed it out. it's completely arbitrary. i mean, newt gingrich cheated on his wife while she had cancer. same thing as john edwards did.
john edwards is the worst person who ever lived, newt gingrich gets to run for president. your hair will go even grayer, anderson, if you keep trying to figure out why someone has to go or why someone is allowed to stay. >> i want to get your take on tracy morgan. were you surprised by what he said, offended by it? >> in this country nobody can ever just make a mistake and then we move on. we have to beat them down. look, i mean, was it the smartest thing to say? no. but you know, it was a joke. you know, america especially liberals have this pie in the sky idea that somehow all minorities are sympathetic to each other. so how could a black guy say something about gays? shouldn't they both know about oppression? well, no. i mean, the gay marriage thing out here in california was defeated because black churches. black churches. as much as anybody. they do not like gay marriage.
and they have a thing because they're very big on the bible and all that stuff that, you know, it's just a wrong thing to do, to be a homosexual. so, you know, we should probably get real with that reality first. >> bill maher. always good to talk to you, bill, thanks. >> you, too. >> one quick correction on something i said when i asked about former congressman will dollar bill jefferson. i said authorities found $10,000 in his freezer. i stand corrected. it was $90,000. still ahead, the heart-breaking scenes syria does not want you to see tonight. what our arwon damon found at a refugee camped in syria. terrified syrian refugees literally trembling with fear. >> reporter: she's so scared that as she's talking her hands just keep shaking uncontrollably. you can hear her voice givering as well. and it's just -- the trauma of what she's seen and what she was talking about is just so evident. >> also tonight casey anthony's mom taking the stand again in the murder trial. people are lining up in droves to watch, pushing each other to wash.
>> this was reportedly shot on friday that allegedly shows protesters taking cover behind a wall. obviously you can hear the gunfire. again we can't see for ourselves. witnesses on the ground risking their lives to talk to us have described the syrian military relentlessly advancing against citizens who are now fleeing their homes and in some cases racing for safety. remarkably arwa damon our reporter was able to get inside syria today despite the country's efforts to keep reporters out. at great personal risk to herself i should point out she
was able to reach a refugee camp inside syria where she heard first hand what the refugees are fleeing. she joins us now in turkey. you spoke to one refugee who fled on friday reportedly the site of at least six deaths in just that day alone. i just want to play that for our viewers what she said. >> every day when we have the protesters in the street, military and the army come for them and kill them in front of our eyes up. >> did you see this? >> yes. our house, we have the window. and the window shooting in the window was fire. if i were sleeping under the window i would lose myself and i would die. we all go down to the kitchen and we sneak through the kitchen on our stomach. >> you had to sneak into the kitchen on your stomach. >> yes. yes. i come here -- the circumstance is so difficult. i am pregnant. i an not be here with such things, i have a nervous breakdown. why our president?
why our president killing us? killing our brothers and sisters and take them to the prisons? why? i just want to ask him this question. >> did she say the security forces were targeting people in particular, anyone in particular? or was it just kind of indiscriminate killing? >> reporter: well, anderson, she was pretty much saying that it was in fact indiscriminate shooting. she was also describing how last friday -- this was really the final straw for her -- she saw a lawyer who was from her neighborhood killed in front of her very eyes. she said he was just heading out of his house, not part of the demonstrations or protests. he was in fact going to meet his sister when he was shot. she was describing how she saw the blood dripping out of the vehicle out of the side of the door. and that is when she and her family realized that they had no choice bus to leave. because she's an english literature major. she's 22 years old. she has an entire future in front of her. she says that they have a right to ask for freedom.
but given the way that government is responding to the population's request for this basic right, she had no choice but to flee her hometown. >> arwa, you took a big gamble crossing into syria. the government obviously has been keeping journalists out. what else did you find there? what else surprised you? >> reporter: anderson, the condition that these refugees crowded in this camp are living in are truly, truly dismal. it's been raining, for example, for the last few days up until in fact this morning. and all they have for shelter are these flimsy little pieces of tarp that they've strung in between trees. they have mud. the children, the feet, their filth. they're washing in this river that's dirty. the man who set up this makeshift pharmacy there is telling us that he's running out of medicine, that there's diseases that are spreading. the children are getting sick. they're relying on the turkish villagers right across the border to bring across -- sneak across bread and other basic
supplies. that's how they're able to eat. and then the horror stories that they're telling of what they had to flee. stories about syrian military torching their farm lands, killing their livestock. many narrowly escaped people fleeing at the last minute as they say the syrian security forces were bombarding their areas. and then, anderson, there's also this ever-growing fear that military is inching even closer. they have a number of spotters out in the hills saying that every single day the syrian military come that much closer to those refugees right on the border. >> arwa damon, stay safe. be careful out there. appreciate what you did today. thank you. that's why i like glucerna shakes. they have slowly digestible carbs to help minimize blood sugar spikes, which can help lower a1c. glucerna products help me keep everything balanced. [ golf clubs clanking ] [ husband ] i'm good! well, almost everything. [ male announcer ] glucerna. delicious shakes and bars.
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crime and punishment tonight, the casey anthony trial accused of killing her 2-year-old daughter kaylee. the prosecution says it's going to wind up its case tomorrow. the defense should start on thursday. a tattoo artist says casey came into a shop for a tattoo -- at the time she got the tattoo her daughter had vanished. also on the stand for a second time kaylee's grandmother who broke into tears. today's emotional testimony what it means and what we can expect from the defense's case. paul henderson a former prosecutor in san francisco and
andrea lyon who was casey anthony's lead attorney earlier. you're a former member of casey's defense team. >> yes. >> you think she's innocent. why? >> well, because i believe that she didn't commit the crime based on some things that i'm still obligated not to talk about. but also because there is no real proof that there was even a murder at all. >> andrea, let me ask you, though, we have seen just a litany of lies that casey anthony has told. >> that's right. >> and being a liar does not make you a murderer. and i'm not equating it. but it certainly goes to her credibility. >> absolutely. >> it absolutely does. >> and now as the defense is taking over, what do they have to do? what do you think the defense -- i mean are they now going to be
hitting this -- i assume we're going to be trying to bolster their argument that she is an abused -- that she's a victim herself of past childhood abuse? >> well, that is what the opening statement said. and of course, i'm not in the defense team anymore and i'm not privy to what they intend to prove or how they intend to prove it. there's a difference between thinking that it was a homicide and proving that it was a homicide. there's a difference between finding her behavior aberrant, be an hour -- abhorrent or despicable. i'm a mother. if my daughter were missing for 3 is seconds let alone 31 days i would lose my mind. but i'm not this particular person. but there's a difference between that and carrying the burden of proof. the way this case has been tried, it's been tried based on her negative character. that the sexually suggestive pictures of her with another young woman and she likes to
party and that her behavior is inappropriate. and nobody's going to argue that her behavior is appropriate. but there's a difference between that and a premeditated, planned, first degree murder. >> isn't that the way that case has really been tried in the media and a lot of people have paid attention to the photos and her behavior afterwards, but in terms of in court we've seen lies and inconsistency in her story and we've heard a lot about evidence. >> and all the photos, too. >> layer after layer. it's not just one thing. it's all the photos, it's all the inconsistent statements, it's all the behavior that you're seeing. it's all of the lies. it's all of the evidence associated with the body. it all adds up. but if you look at the entire picture, and that's what we're going to be asking the jury to do, we're going to ask them to look and evaluate off of evidence that's being presented to them so all of the
inconsistent statements -- the road that they're building is that this is a person who has consistently lied about this incident. she certainly didn't tell much of the truth about what was going on with her daughter. and then lo and behold the daughter isn't just missing, the daughter is dead. and she's not just dead, the experts are saying that daughter was murdered. and regarding the murder, the story that mother told doesn't look like it's very true based on the evidence, based on the facts that have been presented to the jury, and you couple that with her behavior while the daughter was missing, it all just lead to the same conclusion that this is a person that is guilty of wrongdoing, and i believe that this evidence is going to show that she was guilty of murder. >> paul, do you think that casey anthony will take the stand? >> i think if she's going to go with that defense she's going to have to take the stand because she's going to have to sell it. it's not selling well, especially in light of all of the lies and inconsistencies that have been told in the past. and while i'm aware that people are worked up about this case,
people have a visceral reaction when there's a case like this regardless of whether it's in the media or not because this is one of our most vulnerable victims in society. it's a little girl that trusted her mother and ended up dead. >> agreed. >> andrea, though, putting her on the stand, huge risk with that. >> well, that's the problem. i mean, as a defense attorney it's one of the hardest decisions always no matter what the circumstances is. >> absolutely. >> is whether to put the client on the stand. because if you do, all the rest of the evidence just falls away. it all comes down to do we believe the defendant or not? do we like the defendant or not? >> andrea lyon, appreciate your perspective. paul henderson as well, thanks. >> thanks for having us. >> still ahead, what happened to this little boy decades ago is important to know about today. he was just five years old when he became part of a study aimed at making feminine boys masculine. how the so-called sissy boy experiment still lives on decades later. calm down. i know that it is not your job. what i'm saying... excuse me? alright, fine. no, you don't have to do it. ok? [ male announcer ] notre dame knows it's better for xerox to control its printing costs.
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♪ ♪ stay inside? nah. not when you have a five-star overall vehicle score for safety. one more reason chevy traverse delivers more. tonight 360 file, last week we showed you what happened to this little boy, kirk andrew murphy who was five years old when he got involved in a government-funded study aimed at making feminine boys more masculine. the study claim kirk's treatment was a success. they concealed his real name in the study calling him craig to
protect his real identity. that secret is why it's taken so long for his real story to be told. recently her sister learned that little boy was the boy in that study, still being cited as a success by people who think they can prevent children from becoming gay. but the truth is that kirk's story ended tragically. he killed himself when he was 38 years old. his family says he was harmed by the treatment he received as a 5-year-old child and struggled with being gay his entire adult life. jim burrow writes a blog called box turtle.com. he studied the research done on murphy. i talked to him. >> jim, how did you first hear about kirk's story? >> well, maris, kirk's sister actually left a comment on my blog one night. and i came across it and responded to her. and the comment was that i had just found out that my brother, kirk, had been the subject of all this research. and i'm devastated.
and i kind of wanted to reach out to see if i could help her in any way. she had a lot of questions. i answered them to the best that i could. and over time i kind of thought, you know, i didn't know if she was going to be ready to tell the family story or not so i was really reluctant to engage her. but over time, we kind of built a certain amount of rapport. and i kind of felt that this was a story that kind of needed to be told. she kind of felt that, too. we had to figure out how to do it because it obviously involved her mother. and a lot of other family members. over time we decided this was the thing to do. >> this is something which happened in 1970. >> yes. >> why is it still important today? why is it important to talk about it today to reveal what happened today in your opinion? >> well, i think it's because it's still going on. perhaps not the particular brand of treatment that kirk went
through. but the fact is, we don't really know. the ex-gay movement is unregulated. it has since 1970s shifted more towards a religious-based movement. what that means is religious ministries. they fall under the first amendment protections of freedom of religion. and that allows them to do any number of things without any kind of regulatory oversight. >> i've been interviewed over the years a number of times by people who claim to be ex-gay. what i always find to be interesting talking to them -- it's not my job to tell anybody how to live their life. and i certainly have sympathy for anybody who's conflicted about any feelings they have. but the more you talk to them, the more you realize that even those who say they are no longer gay, they still have -- their impulse is still towards same-sex attractions. their impulse is -- they still have the same feelings. they are just forcing themselves
not to act on it. >> right. >> they're basically repressing what seems to be their nature, their basic instinct. >> yeah. absolutely. and i think that's true for most cases. i mean, allen chambers, he's the president of exodus international. he tells his -- they are actually holding a conference right now in ridgecrest, north carolina. a major conference of hundreds of ex-gays from across the country are gathering there. and he will, if past pattern holds, he will tell his audience that every day he wakes up in the morning and asks god to keep him from doing what comes naturally to him. >> are there resource out there for someone who's been through this kind of treatment where they can go for help if they want? >> unfortunately, what we don't really have is a nationwide network of therapists that -- where there's a central location, a web site, a hotline, where you can find someone near
you to go to for help. that's a -- that's a huge gap that i would love to see filled. >> jim burroway, i appreciate your reporting. thank you very much. >> thank you. up next, building up america. meet a wisconsin businessman who attracts customers with an eclectic mix of merchandise that's definitely not your typical store. membership rewards points from american express. they're a social currency. with endless possibilities. just don't feel like they used to. are you one of them? remember when you had more energy for 18 holes with your buddies. more passion for the one ya love. more fun with your family and friends.
it could be a treatable condition called low testosterone or low t. come on, stop living in the shadows. you've got a life to live. [ male announcer ] so don't blame it on aging. talk to your doctor and go to isitlowt.com to find out more. we could've gone a more traditional route... ... but it wouldn't have been nearly as memorable. ♪
well, you know the saying, one man's junk is another man's treasure rings true for a businessman in wisconsin. you never know what you'll see when you stop at this man's shop. >> reporter: on an old farm outside osh kosh -- >> yes, we do have a lot of unusual items. -- >> reporter: a wonderland is growing. >> i just call it a collection of art. >> reporter: an open air emporium of nostalgia, whimsy and whatever else catch's mell's interest. he has rescued these items from old restaurants, theme parks, even movie sets for 30 years. now, they are rescuing him. >> well, those items are actually helping us make it through the tough times. >> reporter: his business is building materials. but as construction has stumbled
he's found himself relying more on the foot traffic and trade brought by, well, this. >> this is a reproduction of a rodeo-type bull. >> this is an eagle fabricated out of all steel. this is a fairly popular piece. come people might think it's unusual. i don't. >> my daughter wanted us to stop here. and i'm glad we stopped. >> reporter: many people come just to look, but plenty end up by buying. >> do you know how much it is? >> the neon porch sign is 650. >> reporter: a lot of individuals will buy it for home use, yard art, interior art. other businesses use it for interior and exterior artwork to get attention. the same as we do. >> reporter: it is not a cure cure-all but it makes up for some of the weakness in his other trade. >> i do know some of my competitors are gone and we are still here. so it must be helping us some. >> reporter: and in the building businessse