tv Anderson Cooper 360 CNN June 16, 2011 11:00pm-12:00am PDT
what does a lawmaker have to do to get fired around here? why do certain sleazy acts get you bounced out of office and other sleazy behavior bounces off some politicians? this afternoon after sexualized messages to women he never met, congressman anthony weiner stepped down. if this whole thing has seemed like a circus, today's final act was definitely fit for the center ring there.
were reporters in the crowd as well as supporters. and of course a howard stern prankster which explains some of the noise you're about to hear. >> i'm here today to again apologize for the personal mistakes i have made and the embarrassment i have caused. i make this apology to my neighbors and my constituents, but i make it particularly to my wife huma. today i am announcing my resignation from congress. so my colleagues can get back to work, my neighbors can choose a new representative, and most importantly that my wife and i can continue to heal from the damage i have caused. >> weiner stepped down before the house possibly voted to censure or ex spell him before the ethics committee voted before it even issued a report and without any evidence he broke any laws. he apparentally didn't get physical with his online partners, never even met them. same with chris lee who posted this shot at craig's list earlier this year in search of companionship.
he was gone in four hours. on the other hand, senator larry craig arrested allegedly cruising the men's restrooms. remember his excuse he had a wide stance. he plead guilty to misdemeanor disorderly conduct, stuck it out and finished his term. new york congressman charles rangel was censured. he too didn't quit and was recently re-elected with 80% of the vote. gop senator david vitter also got re-elected and is serving today despite his name turned up in the d.c. madam's list. he admitted to a serious sin and asked forgiveness. ironically he succeeded this man in the house, bob livingstone who resigned after committing adultery. he had just been to replace newt gingrich who admitted he was having an affair with a woman who had become his current wife. president clinton survived as well but anthony weiner did not. he lost support of his colleagues, and president obama
who said he'd resign when he was -- if he was in his shoes. >> i wish representative weiner and his lovely wife well. obviously it's been a tough incident for him. but i'm confident that they'll refocus and he'll refocus and they'll end up being able to bounce back. >> president obama tonight on abc. so what are the rules? where are the lines if there are any lines at all? joining us now, danna bash and melanie sloan of citizens for ethics and responsibility in washington. danna, was this resignation unavoidable? was there another way he could have handed it that he could have survived? >> well, i talk today some of his colleagues as i have over the past several weeks particularly today, and they say, yes, actually. the way that he hand eld it was atrocious. there's really no other way to
say it. never mind what the core of this which was sending lewd photographs of himself that kept trickling out over and over and over over the past couple of weeks, but most importantly it's the fact that he just was so not truthful about the fact that he had done it, the fact that he not only said that he was hacked, which is not true then he didn't answer our questions, he didn't tell the truth and actually blatantly lied to in the media. but even more importantly to his colleagues. that really as one of his colleagues said to me, it's always the coverup. and the coverup at this point and the fact that he didn't tell the truth really did him in. >> but melanie, he also didn't really have many friends in congress. i'm wondering what role that played. if he had been a senator, would he have resigned? >> there's no question but that if he'd been in the senate he wouldn't have had to resign. >>ies that? >> the senate never really seems to demand resignation of even their most egregious offenders. no one asked for david vitter's rez eggivation or john ensign's resignation even though he would
have been expelled by his colleagues. >> none of the fellow senators asked for vitter to resign or ensign? >> not a one. >> this is the first time nancy pelosi has asked for somebody to step down. >> that's right. financial scandals don't seem to bring about nearly the same reaction. nancy pelosi never asked for congressman charlie rank el to resign. we've seen numerous members manage to stave off these kind of efforts. i think part of it for anthony weiner, he didn't really have any friends in congress. he hadn't built the goodwill that say charlie rangle had over 40 years in congress. >> dana, do you agree if he had been in the senate it would be a different story? >> i think the best way to say it is that every situation is different that. might sound like a copout but it happens to be true. i'll tell you with larry craig i spent some time in idaho trying to following the story and trying to figure out exactly what went on. and at the time i covered it real time his colleagues did try to push him out. they tried very, very hard to push him out.
they were unsuccessful. talking about colleagues in his own party. they were not successful in doing so. they stripped him of his leadership role and tried to get him out the door. he was determined to stay. at a certain point there's not much you can do. but i guess the difference, there are lots of differences, obviously, but was an incident. with anthony weiner we're talking about the span of almost three weeks here, anderson with, new stories, new pictures, new allegations coming out every single day of frankly unsolicited pictures he was taking of himself going to women that he didn't know and even at the end of the day really the straw that broke the camel's back from many leadership sources and members of congress that i spoke to was the fact that he sent some messages to a 17-year-old girl. he said they weren't indecent, but just the fact that this was on top of everything else, the story is something that is unique in and of itself. >> melanie, do you think this somehow changes things on capitol hill in terms of that there's now a higher level of -- or a lower level of tolerance for this sort of behavior? how do you think it impacts things?
i think it is a big risk for members of congress. if they're going to have a standard where any sexual impropriety as all is going to force a member of congress to be booted i think we could see a lot of members go out the door. i think we could see a lot of opposition research on this issue and investigative journalists looking at this. this is a standard members of congress need to be very cautious about. there was no ethics rule or federal law violated. now if we're going to start kicking everybody out for sexual misconduct, even not actual misconduct but sexual impropriety, i think a lot of members have something to worry about here. >> melanie sloan, appreciate it. dana bash, you have been covering this from the beginning. thank you very much. anthony weiner said he'll be going to rehab "to focus on becoming a better husband and healthier person." i spoke earlier with dr. drew pinsky addiction expert. anthony weiner has talked about going away for some sort of treatment. is there rehab for -- i'm not
sure what the treatment would actually be. is that just kind of a -- there's a catch all excuse now i'm going to go to rehab and disappear for a couple of weeks and come back and make a comeback. is there something that he could be treated for? >> well, first address the rehab, that's a tern that really doesn't have any meaning anymore. is he going to a psychiatric hospital and getting treatment? is he going to treatment for sexual adiction or drug addiction? he's going somewhere. going to rehab. now, i don't know representative weiner obviously. but people that behave like this, i have treated many, many times. we tend to conceptualize these things as sexual addictions. yes, they can go away for intensive, immersive programs with intense emotional processes with men who have had problems exactly like him. it's really about -- >> so is that sex therapy or is that about compulsive behavior? i mean, how would you characterize -- it does seem like a compulsive nature -- you read those tweets. a woman is tweeting about something he said on tv and he
immediately is steering it toward sexual innuendo. >> that's right. and we would put that -- i would at least put that, not knowing him but based on what we're seeing here, in the category of sexual addiction, sexual compulsion. and yes, that has a comprehensive group process, individual therapy and 12 step, and sometimes medication associated with that. but foremost among that is gaining access to an honest program of recovery that is rigorous and intense and delicate and ultimately it's about reintegrated emotional processes. men that do that usually have a very barren emotional life and they're just trying to evoke something. that seem to be what is going on here. >> you say reintegrating emotional processes. what does that mean? >> if you've ever seen celebrity rehab, it's the reason i did that program is to show people this is a very intensive process, it's a group process. it's about being called out on your emotions, being open and honest, and processing things that you may have put way behind you and thought you had dealt
with. an those things need to be brought back into and integrated with the rest of his emotional life. >> you know, though, some people, maybe a lot of people listening to this are going to be kind of rolling their eyes, come on. all right, he was sexting and now he's going to go for deep treatment? i mean, look, he got caught doing something that probably a lot of of people do. >> absolutely that's true. but the fact is that if you've seen -- i've actually read some of the stuff he was engaged in. i couldn't repeat it in a room. there's no way. it was pretty intense stuff. it's not just the blush we've been sort of presented in the media. it went downstream very, very far and very, very quickly in many of these interactions. and that in the context of there being severe consequences and so much to be at risk suggested he was not operating at what's called a normal space emotionally at that point in time. it's those consequences that bring people to treatment. i know everyone goes, oh, men in power. and that's true. men go into positions of power to be somebody.
you notice we don't see there's women in power doing this. women in power often go into power to do something different. but men that need to be somebody often have nar saysistic liabilities. anderson, you have talked about this over the years many, many times. yooms. and as such -- >> not in a therapeutic setting but on television. >> yes, on television and talked about it. that's exactly right. because these things do happen in celebrities and men in position of power. and it's not a happy thing for them. it's a very empty life they're leading. they need to be buttressed by these sort of external features around them to make them feel okay about them selves. and they continue to have deep emotional liabilities, many of them. that's what's sort of come out here. so when you roll your eyes and say men in power wouldn't do anything if they didn't get caught. the same is true about cocaine addicts, alcohol ex, pill addicts. if the legal system didn't come to bear or family bring them in or health consequences didn't come to bear, they keep doing it. it's the truth of all these types of compulsive beowe behaviors. >> dr. drew, thanks. fascinating. we talked about casey
anthony who's already established herself as a world-class liar. is that any reason to believe she's a killer? and the defense's question about little caylee that shook up the courtroom. did the fbi do a test to see if caylee's uncle or grandfather could be her father. let us know what you think about facebook. follow me on twitter @ anderson cooper. up next the story about mitt romney's joke that he's also unemployed. was it insensitive or getting a laugh at his own expense? does it matter after he attacked president obama for saying he said something about the economy. first isha sesay. is muammar gadhafi ready to set down? also a word from his son about elections. that and much more when 360 continues. we can start losing m- 8% every 10 years. wow. wow. but you can help fight muscle loss with exercise and ensure muscle health. i've got revigor.
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was it something he said in mitt romney today campaigning in tampa, cracking a joke which he does sometimes. he recently made a pun out of the words hub cap and hollandaise. this was about being jobless. it was right after he ran an ad slamming president obama about what he said about the economy. first talking to a group of unemployed floridaens. >> i should also tell my story.
i'm also unemployed [ laughter ] >> are you on welfare? >> yes, actually. and i'm not working. >> better than what we've got. >> but i have a particular job i'm looking for. so i know exactly what i'm interested in. it's a lot of work. >> so that was the joke. got a laugh in the room. but it stirred up kind of a political storm. democratic national committee chair putting out a statement blasting it saying in part" being unemployed mr. romney is not a joke, not to my constituents in florida or to millions of americans across the country." she reported he is worth more than $200 million and owns several homes around the country. asked about his joke later he said he was only making light of himself. you can't decide for yourself whether he was or wasn't.
the joke came in a certain context. earlier this month president obama said this about a shaky jobs report just out. >> there are always going to be bumps on the road to recovery. >> those four words, "bumps on the road." governor romney turned them into a campaign ad accusing president obama of, well, being insensitive to the unemployed. >> i'm an american. >> i'm an american. a bump in the road. >> i'm an american, not a bump in the road. >> i'm an american, not a bump in the road. >> i'm an american, not a bump in the road. >> so was the president of the united states comparing americans to bumps in the road or somehow downplaying their misfortunes? was governor romney being insensitive or just being himself? i asked a pair of professionals, gop strategist tony blankley and cornell burcher who worked on the 2008 obama campaign. >> democrats are no jumping all over mitt romney for the
statement "i'm unemployed as well." is there a problem here? do you think it's much to do about nothing? >> it's much to do about a little. gore vidal wrote years ago that american public likes a genial president but not a jokester. i think that's largely true. someone like reagan or f.d.r. can get away with it because they have the wonderful personalities. but whether the president making a joke about shovel ready or romney making a joke about unemployment, i think the best interests is in not making jokes. >> cornell, we debated even doing this. because when you see it he was clearly sort of trying to make a light-hearted thing. the people around the table didn't seem to be particularly offended at all. but i guess in the wake of him jumping on president obama for using the term "bumps in the road" he put out a whole commercial making it seem like the president was talking about people, you know, who are laying in the road and that they weren't just bumps in the road. i mean, do you think this is
part of a larger problem for romney? >> i think he has a connection problem. you can see his people think he has a connection problem. he's working real hard to try to connect with the regular guy. so i think he -- he's trying too hard and they've got to fix it. it's ridiculous that the guy is worth a couple hundred million dollars is going to talk about his being unemployed, it's almost insulting to people being unemployed. from a larger campaign strategy standpoint he clearly is trying to connect this with a regular i go and they clearly see this as a problem but he's not doing it very well. >> tony, recent think there have been a number of pretty devastating accounts by reporters following romney opt road. just he's gotten better it seems like in press conferences, in debates. he's become clearly the frontrunner right now. but on kind of one-on-one moments, which are now increasingly recorded, he seems to have a lot of awkwardness. >> well, i think anyone who
becomes a frontrunner is more vulnerable to these sort of things, you will plus the media sort of gets into the rhythm of a particular critique of one candidate or the other. right now that kind of mode looking for little examples. right now rhythm is to see if romney says anything that's not regular guy. the truth is, he's not a regular guy. rockefeller wasn't a regular guy. they got to figure out how to be themselves and be sort of accessible to the public without pretending to be a 9 to 5er. >> i don't think anyone who's a regular guy or a regular woman runs for president and can actually become president. you have to be kind of extraordinary in many levels. >> you got to be something a little different. only been 44 of them. >> so cornell, if you were advising romney how to proceed -- clearly if he's the frontrunner right now and is going to be -- everybody's going to be out for him one way or another, how does he avoid this trap in the future? what would you advise him? >> this is the great sin is voters can smell inauthenticity a mile away. he's got to come across as authentic.
in these situations he comes across as inauthentic. but the problem is in new hampshire and iowa, that's retail politics 101 at its best. you got to be out there touching the flesh and talking to people. and to a certain extent, if he's not very good at it they've got to take him out of those situations as much as possible. clearly here's a guy, he's just not very good at it. got to limit those situations. but it's hard in iowa and new hampshire. >> i want to ask both of you just in general about the gop field right now. tony, as you watch the field right now, what interests you the most? what do you think is -- what are you going to be watching for asides anyone new entering the race? what are you going to be watching for with the current candidates in the next couple of weeks? >> i think the question is increasingly who is going to be the alternative to romney. i mean, romney's not quite a frontrunner but he's almost. he's around 25,30% in a split field. so the question is, who is going to emerge as the alternative down the stretch? we're a long way from the stretch.
but june is remarkably close to september, which is remarkably close to january. so it moves faster than you would expect. >> cornell, how about you? what's so interesting about that race is that they've seen one way early on and then you look at hillary clinton who's thought to be way out in front early on and then all of a sudden here came then senator barack obama. >> and i'm very thankful for that. >> when you look at sort of the mood of the country, voters were looking for change. there was an anti-establishment, sort of anti-washington fervor that was going on in the country two years ago. and i thought we saw that manifest itself in the democratic primary. i think we're going to see that same sort of thing representing on the right this time with the tea party. i kind of like the outside candidates chances to come in here. a lot of people didn't agree with me, but michelle bachman has the largest sort of up side. i think she showed herself very well in that last debate. i think she can speak to the tea party. and i think she's the outside candidate who can cut in here. >> tony blankley, good to have you on the program and cornell
belcher as well. a lot coming up. the defense starts its case in the murder trial of casey anthony. we're going to get the latest on what happened from gary tuchman who's there and we'll hear more from dr. drew about what could be going on with casey, whether she's a pathological liar and what that means. al qaeda has a new leader to take over for osama bin laden. could the delay mean there's dissension in the ranks? smart you name it.
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well, one of the most intriguing parts to watch in the casey anthony murder trial is trying to figure out what is going on with casey anthony. i talked to dr. drew to get his take on it. >> so far there's really nothing that has been offered that gives me as a clinician a way to understand exactly what this behavior has been. the way things have played out in court makes it look like she's a psychopath, makes it look like she's a really egregiously awful parent and probably somebody who's capable of hurting this child. >> more with dr. drew and the latest from inside the court today coming up first isha join us back with the 360 news and business bulletin. >> reporter: anderson, al zawahiri has been named as osama bin laden's successor. the fact that it took al qaeda weeks to name a new leader could
be a sign there's dissension in the ranks. moammar gadhafi says there could be a successor in months. the un nato or other international observers could be there to make sure it's a fair election. meanwhile russian envoy in libya says he was told that gadhafi is not ready to step down. california governor jerry brown has vetoed the budget that state lawmakers passed. brown said the budget, the proposed budget adds billions of dollars of new debt and the state has to do better to solve its $26 billion deficit. and anderson, the city of vancouver is cleaning up the mess from rioting. cars were overturned, fires were set, and police used tear gas after the boston bruins beat the vancouver canucks to win the stanley cup. a local bar owner says it comes down to too many people having too much to drink. you think? >> really surprising stuff. time for the -- i heard about this, isha, from twitter.
a lot of folks tweeted me that they had happened. are you up for a little wheel of fortune? >> let's. >> all right. this is from tonight's show. the category is same name. let's take a look at how this all played out on the show. >> andy, it's your turn. this is going to be close. oh. >> darn. >> wow. shawn, what do you want to do. >> >> i'd like to solve, please. anderson and mini cooper. >> yeah, that's right. >> i hope they're talking about the car. [ laughter ] >> but i'm sad also that i bankrupted that person. >> oh, well. >> i didn't technically bankrupt the person. >> technically you didn't. but i'm sure they're watching the show right now. yes. indeed. well, they knew not to bet on you anymore. >> yes. i'm a good bet. anyway -- >> as he says of himself.
>> not exactly. it was very exciting, though, to see vanna white, you know. is she still doing it? okay. yeah. seeing vanna white turn the things. i got very excited. >> okay. if you say. so in the u.k. we have a different version of the show. different people. >> oh, right? do you know who the original host of wheel of fortune was and the original letter turner? i don't know why i know this. >> no. but i know you're going to freak everyone out with your geekiness. >> chuck willary and serena stafford. i'm pretty sure that's right. somebody on twitter will correct me if i'm wrong. >> we're going to work to find out if you're right and we'll tell you before the end of the show. >> he went on to do "love connection." again why i know this i don't know. >> now you're beginning to scare me. is there an exit? >> exit stage left. all right. there's a lot more ahead. serious stuff starting with the crime and punishment. latest on the casey anthony trial. we'll be right back.
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report her missing for a month. now casey anthony is facing a possible death sentence if she's convicted. today her defense team came out swinging. >> reporter: casey anthony's attorneys have now begun to present their case. >> good morning, ladies and gentlemen. >> reporter: their effort to free her or at the very least save her life started out with some hard ball. at the start of the trial, the defense said caylee anthony accidentally drowned, and then put out a shocking claim, that casey was molested by her father and brother. the defendant contends the history of incest was a reason she kept her daughter's drowning a secret. today her attorneys tried to reignite that legal flame. listen to what defense attorney jose bayez asked a fbi scientist. >> were you to conduct a paternity test for lee anthony as to being a potential father of caylee anthony? >> reporter: prosecutors quickly objected. bayez new full well the paternity test had come back negative for both her father and brother. but he clearly wanted the jury to know those paternity tests had been done.
so far there is nobody on the defense witness list who will testify about the possible relationship between incest and keeping your child's death secret. one person who might fill that role is casey anthony herself. but her attorneys are still not saying if she'll take the stand. what they focused on today was dna. specifically the lack of it on critical evidence. like the duct tape found on the child's skull. >> did you test the adhesive side of the duct tape? >> yes, i did. >> and was there anything that you were able to find there? >> the information that was generated was inconclusive. >> reporter: but the prosecution asked the same expert what happens to dna after months in the heat and humidity. >> it is probably that if there were cells contained on there the cells could start to degrade over time in the dna that would be contained in there would also start to be diminished.
>> reporter: not all the testimony on this day was serious. listen to this crime scene investigator. >> do you speak while you're doing these things? >> no. >> why not? >> because i'm by myself. >> okay. [ laughter ] >> reporter: it's rare to see casey anthony smile in the presence of a jury. but she did today as the defense makes its push to convince those jurors she did not kill her daughter. >> gary you were sitting near casey anthony's parents in court today. what are their reactions when the whole question of paternity tests came up? >> the rules in the court, anderson, are no one is allowed to talk whether you're the family, the media, the public. so they follow the rules. and they did not talk. but i looked at their faces during this testimony, both george and cindy looked very serious and very sad. george had a bible with him today. he thumbed through the bible during parts of the testimony. he also had a notebook. and on the notebook he had a
badge with a picture of little caylee. one other rule, anderson, i want to talk to you about in the courtroom, that's the rule there's no sleeping allowed of or you'll get kicked out. what's happening is people are camping out. right now there's about 40 people behind me who have been here for two hours. 12 hours before court starts tomorrow. they're so tired by the time they get into court they fall asleep. and at least four people were kicked out of court today for crashing in the middle of the dna testimony. >> and i guess, i mean, the >> the defense made it clear today they'll try to build on the accusations in their opening statements about casey anthony being sexually abused by her brother and father. i also talked about that with dr. drew pinsky. >> with as many lies as casey anthony has told, is it possible that on some level she actually believes the story she's told everyone about the death of her daughter? >> i don't know about that particular lie, but there's no doubt in my mind that she is one of these people that does believe the lies that she maintains. when you really look at her, the only thing we know about casey anthony for sure of a factual nature is that she is a spectacular liar. >> pathological liar? you hear that term ban did
about. >> absolutely. i will tell you when you read the literature on pathological lying what you see is that it never exists as an entity unto itself. it always exists in a context of other personality disorders, drug addiction, some other explanation for why the pathology is going on. i've speculated and no one has been able to answer me on this, maybe she had a head injury as a child. maybe there's a neurological explanation for this. because when you read the lies, they are so stunning, we don't know is she a psychopath who's a cold-blooded killer? is she a sociopath who doesn't really appreciate that other people have feeling? is she a drug addict possibly? none of these things have been presented in court. but so far, there's really nothing that has been offered that gives me as a clinician a way to understand exactly what this behavior has been. the way things have played out in court makes it look like she's a psychopath, makes it looks like she's a really egregiously awful parent and probably somebody who's capable of hurting this child.
>> and they're alleging sexual abuse by her brother and by her father. is that something, though, that comes out in the ways that they're saying it does in her case, which is her reaction to the death of her daughter? >> that's the case they're making. but as i've said on my program several times, i treat lots of drug addicts. they're terrible parents. i treat lots of trauma survivors. that doesn't make them murderers. in fact i never see that. that never happens. it makes them bad parents and it may make them do strange things after a loss. that maybe explains her behavior after being aware that something had happened to her child. but even that, i mean, that's a reach. it really is. by the way, especially they've not really proven severe sexual abuse. you'd have to show chronic, ongoing sexual abuse. >> they've not shown it. >> no. they've alleged that maybe something happened with her brother and maybe something happened with her dad. in my experience, that's not enough to explain wild lying and wild behavior and extreme partying after your child has died. >> dr. drew pinsky, thanks.
>> a pleasure. let's bring in our legal experts. ann dry lyon as casey anthony's former attorney. paul henderson is a prosecutor. paul, why is the defense raising the question of whether casey's brother or father were the father of her little girl? neither of them was the father according to dna testing. so they already know that. is this just a ploy to put a suggestion in front of the jury? >> reporter: absolutely. this is just a red herring that they're throwing out there to try to paint a picture without putting her on the stand. and the reason that you know that that's the case is because up until now, they never requested any of that dna be tested. and if they really suspected that this was a possibility, they could have easily have asked the prosecution to have the dna tested for that likelihood. >> the prosecution are the ones who requested that it be tested. i think that might be the purpose of asking the questions in the first place is to show that prosecution the police
suspected incest. >> the jury now still doesn't have an answer about george anthony. there was an argument between the lawyers. the jury was excused from the room. when they came back the defense asked about the results of the brother lee. the defense didn't ask about george anthony. and so the question is perhaps in the juror's minds now about george anthony. >> reporter: look, they know that only way that going to be able to pitch their story in terms of an inference of molestation or an inference of incest is going to be for her to have to take the stand. the only way around that is to show through some dna evidence that does not exist, you know, i think that this was just a ruse and a red herring to try and distract the jury from what's really going on, which is the ultimate question of was she responsible for the death and the murder of her child. >> to be fair, the prosecution is asking the jury to draw a lot of infrernss. she's at a party, she's a murderer. she lies, she's a murderer. so i mean, just to be fair, there's an awful lot of inference slinging in this trial. >> so how damaging, paul, do you
think it was for the prosecution, the fact that there was testimony today that dna -- that casey's dna was not found on the duct tape? and that in fact one piece -- part of the duct tape had been contaminated by another technician? >> whether or not the experts or the people in the labs had mishandled that piece of evidence and how they were processing it, it doesn't take away from the end results which is that that duct tape was found wrapped around the skull of the child. >> i've got to respectfully disagree with you paul, because here's the thing. they're saying that this tape proves homicide. but the tape doesn't have caylee's dna on it, it doesn't have casey's dna on it. it's still sticky and capable of capturing dna. it has the dna of this technician and an unknown male on it. >> the defense wants to call a surprise witness, a man who served 10 years for kidnapping, who the defense says is somehow -- they haven't said how he may or may not be connected to casey's father, they say there were phone calls between casey's father and this person. george anthony's lawyer says george anthony doesn't know the guy. paul, in your opinion is this just another effort to kind of bring george anthony into this as a possible player? >> absolutely. pidicates tan--3nhi.- dividual. >>vetoembeth t eat dual. >>vetoembeth t s sef atantouthe body. indicate that it was likely the mother because she was last in control of the body.
>> would a defense attorney at this point already know whether or not they want to put their client in this case casey anthony on the stand? >> not necessarily. they wouldn't necessarily know. and it kind of reminds me of a case where i had a client who was a displaced west virginia coal miner. and he had good things and important things to say. but he had a very odd way of presenting himself. he didn't express emotions the way normal people do. and so the decision whether to call him was complicated by the way that i feared that a jury might look at him as a person. and so this is a very complicated decision. >> and paul, in particular also because of all the tapes of her lying -- >> well, this is not just a case about someone that has be an hour end behavior or bad behavior. it's the context that those lies are give tonight people around her. >> there's no cause of death. you have to remember that.
there is no cause of death. they cannot say that this was a -- that this was a homicide based on the medical evidence. they cannot say that. >> and we don't know the cause of death because someone hid the body. someone removed the body that prevented an autopsy from being done in a timely fashion. and the facts and the evidence indicate that it was likely the mother because she was last in control of the body. >> but remember you're using words like likely. and likely is not proof beyond a reasonable doubt. >> got to leave you there. andrea lyon, paul henderson, thanks. fascinating discussion. [ wind howling ]
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>> reporter: recently test scores at some schools that were under rhee's leadership have been questioned. >> some 96 schools were said to have had irregularities on the exams. >> we hired an external investigator to investigate this. what they said was that in the vast majority of cases they found actually no impropriety. and in a small number of cases that they did see that something was wrong. then we took the necessary actions against those people. >> do you feel like you pressured them into doing it? >> absolutely not. >> you seem to have landed on your feet. you seem to be doing all right. started your own organization. >> students first is a new organization that we started. and the basic premise behind it is that our kids are not getting the education that they deserve, that this nation is falling further and further behind. we're in the midst of a national campaign right now called save great teachers. and what we're trying to do across the country is to stop
policies that mandate wifo or last in first out policies. >> what does that mean? >> when a school district is in a budget crisis and they have to lay off teachers, that the last teacher who was hired must be the first teacher fired regardless of performance. >> to the mom and dad who are watching this conversation, what's at stake? >> it's our children and their livelihood. this group of children who are in school today will be the first generation of americans who are less well educated than their parents were for the first time in american history. >> some common beliefs in education. you tell me if they're right or wrong quick ones. that poverty impacts student performance. does it? >> poverty does not have to be the determining factor as many people believe. >> okay. neighborhood are known for bad schools. so where you live derms whether or not you can go to a good school. >> right now with an uncanny accuracy, if we look at the zip code that kid lives in and the race of the kid, we can tell you
what their academic achievement levels are. so we are allowing where our kid lives to dictate their education attainment levels. but it's not necessarily what we have to live with. because you can also find schools where in those same neighborhoods, same zip codes, same demographics, kids are soaring academically. >> michelle rhee obviously made a lot of friend but also a lot of enemies in washington, d.c. what kind of impact can a school chancellor really have on education? >> reporter: just look at michelle. not only did she make an impact in washington, d.c. but she really has spearheaded a movement. a movement of people from all walks of life who want to see changes in public education. she's really become a drum major for education reform. i think that michelle has made a significant impact. you don't necessarily have to agree with her politics, but you cannot disagree with the impact that she makes. >> principal steve perry, thanks. >> thank you. >> we'll be right back.
we're going to head on into the interview. krystal. . . krystal . . . what lead to your decision to go with the fusion? i just keep on going back to looks; it's a great looking car. how do your co-workers feel about your decision? they were the ones who were against ford. they were like they're a truck company. for the most part i am pretty sure i have changed most everyone's mind. krystal, you seem pretty comfortable up there,