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tv   John King USA  CNN  August 22, 2011 11:00pm-12:00am PDT

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moammar gadhafi has not been found but his son has reappeared. here's video from a short time ago. safe, unexpectedly materialize in front of cameras in tripoli. the opposition forces have claimed they had him in custody. apparently not. in any case, not any more. >> translator: gangs of people who are sabotagers and you could ski the people of libya are
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standing and have broken the spine of those rats and gangsters and today, we'll go in the old hot spots of tripoli, in tripoli, and we'll reassure the people that things are fine in libya. now on a walk about in tripoli and in the places where they say there has been -- they have actually seized from us. then he said, the hell with the oicc. >> a short time later as the dictator was about to leave, our own matthew chance caught up with him for a brief one-on-one. >> we broke the backbone of the rebels. so we are -- and now, let's go. let's go together, to the hottest places in tripoli, okay?
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very hot. you want to go? >> no. >> well, get in the car. let's go. >> -- i have to re-evaluate. >> can i get a picture, sir? >> you'll have to. >> matthew and his crew and other reporters were basically captive audiences tonight. they are stuck, pinned down not allowed to leave the hotel and fighting at the nearby gadhafi compound and prevented from leaving but the gunmen inside the hotel patrolling the halls. he'll fill us in. the question is what happens next in tripoli and what's happening right now? has the opposition been lured into a trap as saif gadhafi claims? or will they ultimately secure the forces of the capital. this afternoon, the president called on them to resurface and surrender. >> while it's clear that gadhafi's rule is over, he has the opportunity to reduce further bloodshed by explicitly
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relinquishing power. and lay down their arms for the sake of libya. >> he called the situation "flu "fluid." we got a hint that the administration is preparing for a post gadhafi libya. the "wall street journal" says the u.s. council has promised to quickly free up billions of dollars in frozen libyan assets if and when gadhafi falls. more on that and late developments from our people on the ground but first a quick look at the opposition's road to tripoli and they hope, to victory. the coastal city of zawiya and the next target, tripoli. on sunday, the advance began and the rebels were surprised at how easily they were able to infiltrate the city. >> the road was completely clear and we were able to get here in no time flat. we're just seeing the outskirts
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of the town but you can see there are checkpoints. you can see people are screaming "god is great." you can hear the shooting in the air. and we're getting very, very close now to the city center. >> by dusk the first reports of fighting within tripoli. western journalists are held by the government inside the tripoli hotel. >> reporter: seconds or a few minutes we've learned that the security that's been so prevalent around this hotel has all of a sudden decided to leave, essentially, the government minders who are armed with rifles and things like that, have departed the hotel now. and it's pretty empty in the area apart from a few security staff. or a few hotel staff. apart from that it's completely empty. kind of an uncertain time. because obviously, we don't know the exact reason why the minders have left with their weapons. the assumption is it's because
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the rebels are very close by. >> late sunday, gadhafi made an audio appeal on state television for residents to defend the capitol. >> translator: how can you allow tripoli to be destroyed, burned. >> libyan government spokesman told reporters that tripoli was, quote, "being turned into a hell fire." by 1:15, they marched. . >> green square, a sight famous for pro-gadhafi rallies. >> right now, everyone is -- [ gunfire ] what we're seeing is rebels all over the square. there are no civilians. mostly men with guns in the square but we're also seeing people running. there's a lot of gunfire and they say they are snipers. we all had to pull back [ gunfire ] >> the situation is very tense. >> scenes of celebration inside the city as world leaders, including president obama, called on gadhafi to surrender. but as dawn broke, celebratory gunfire turned hostile as
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government forces fought back. this bbc reporter came under fire while riding into the city with a convoy of opposition fighters. [ gunfire ] rebels gain another victory by announcing the arrest of the news anchor for libyan state television who brandished a gun during her broadcast declaring she would become a martyr for the regime. after her arrest the opposition forces say they got control over the state run network and turned the broadcast off. serious fighting continues in parts of tripoli and the opposition said they are certain of victory and have begun making plans to govern the nation. but the one task that could end this war once and for all 'still eludes them. the capture of moammar gadhafi . his where abouts are unknown. again, gadhafi is hiding somewhere. his son, saif, reappeared tonight and they join us from tripoli with matthew. how did he appear to you?
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he seemed pretty confident. >> yeah, he did. he seemed very relaxed. he seemed looking quite good, actually, for a man who was supposed to have been in custody for the last 48 hours. he said that was a trick and made the point the rebels have come into tripoli. he said that gadhafi forces had broken their backbone and given them a hard time before the door closed and he drove off. he drove off in a motorcade into tripoli. clearly into an area which is very much under control of the forces of his father. >> and you say -- he said the opposition had fallen into some sort of trap. what did he mean? the opposition has been claiming besides they captured him, but they control 90% of tripoli? >> yes. they are saying that. i think there are questions tonight about to what extent that's the case. it's very difficult for us here in the hotel to verify what --
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how much of tripoli is controlled by the rebels and how much is controlled by gadhafi. i can tell you this, safe gadhafi got into the motorcade and he's in the area immediately around the area. the gadhafi compound is around this area and other key installations and he's driving around with pretty limited security. a couple of other cars filled with bodyguards. not like a huge armored car or anything like that. he seemed to feel pretty safe. he said, look, get into the car and i'll take you to some of the hot areas of tripoli, the implication being that there are areas that are being talked about as being in rebel hands and he wanted to show us that these areas were safe to drive around. we didn't take the opportunity for various reasons. as very confident, indeed, anderson. >> it would seem a multiple vehicle white land rover convoy would be a pretty good target
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for nato planes overhead. the fact that he's driving around that at night does seem to show a certain amount of confidence. >> it does. he told reporters earlier in the evening that he was going to be giving a press conference. we didn't know he wasn't in captivity at this point so we were all taken aback and skeptical that this will happen. our skepticism was confirmed when we went down at 11:30 at night to get ready for the press conference and he didn't turn up so we thought, this is just spin being put out by the rebels. and then when he appeared at the hotel entrance about two hours later, we were all really surprised. what was really surprising of everything is that he was still in tripoli. he was still -- he was free and he said his father, moammar gadhafi was still in tripoli, as was the rest of his family, trying to dispel those rumors that elements of the family had fled or been killed or taken
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captive. >> at this time are you hearing gunfire? are you hearing the sounds of any kind of combat and if not, when was the last time you did? >> it was about, you know, three or four hours ago, shortly before saif gadhafi turned up at the hotel. previous to that there have been enormous gunfights. ferocious gun fights. grenades exploding. huge explosions around that compound which has been the moammar gadhafi compound. in particular, this firefight has surrounded there for the past 72 hours or so as the rebels entered tripoli. but after saif gadhafi made his appearance at the hotel, the whole situation seems to have changed. no gunfire at site. i'm talking to you on skype. the electricity is on in the hotel. a few hours ago we were all sitting in searing heat because
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there's no air conditioners and there was no running water, no lights outside or inside and now, the generators have gone back on again. it seems that, at least in this area, this area of tripoli, around the rixos hotel and the gadhafi compound the government has succeeded in defending this pocket and reestablishing their control. control, they never really lost in this particular area. >> i know you've been sort of scavenging for food. stay safe and we'll continue to check in. you know he took power in a coupe and his brutal often eccentric personality is all they've known all their lives. can you imagine? that's the way it's been for a 23-year-old libyan woman we'll call nora, to protect her identity. she lives in libya with her family and says libyans have wanted to live a normal life. for months she's not spoken but
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tonight she breaks her silence. she says she's on the cusp of experiencing freedom for the first time. i spoke to her earlier by phone. how are you feeling? when you hear the gunfire and when you see what is happening how do you feel? >> i'm frightened because we know that gadhafi and his army, the kind of people -- they do not care about anyone. they're -- they think in a deeper way. they're not even human beings. you cannot -- you can never, never expect what they will do. they're reactions, they are unexpected. so we don't know. they may do anything. actually, before maybe one or two hours and a half, they were firing rocks and 100% sure that
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we -- we are trying to -- we're defending our freedom and we didn't choose the situation. we didn't choose to have this war in our country. actually, it was gadhafi and his army. he's the one who forced us to fight -- to take our freedom from him. now we are fighting to take our simplest needs as people, as human beings. we were treated by him, for 42 years, as slaves. >> what does it feel like, your entire life you have lived under gadhafi. what does it feel like to be on the brink of change? to be on the brink of something new? >> you know, now i'm 23 years old. as you say, i lived all my life under the control of him.
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my feeling now are very, very close to my freedom so i will just in the moment that i will take it and i will leave every moment of my life and thank the lord for every moment i will live it without him and his control and his son's control as well. so i'm wanting and really, really, i'm waiting for this minute. i'm waiting for the time that we'll hear that gadhafi is over. they captured him and he's over. no gadhafi. even if i die after that moment has arrived, i will live for a moment that they will tell me there's no gadhafi.
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that will be the best thing in my life. >> thank you for talking to us. stay safe and be careful. >> thank you so much. >> imagine what that feels like. let us know what you think. we're on facebook and "ac 360." how much help has been gotten. we know about air support. special air forces. boots on the ground? covert assistance? we'll talk to a former army intelligence commander about the possibilities. >> gadhafi finished. very, very happy. now, libya freedom! the future . in here, inventory can be taught to learn. ♪ machines have a voice. ♪ medical history follows you. it's the at&t network -- a network of possibilities...
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offered little to back it up. the opposition claims to control about 90% of the city and they also claimed to be safe in custody for saif. we know that opposition forces have moved into tripoli, so quickly, in part with nato air support. they've become better fighters with the kind of covert assistance you don't see on the evening news. i spoke about it in saif's appearance with general marks and general james spider marks general marks, with the fight for tripoli ongoing and gadhafi's where abouts unknown, how do you see this playing out especially with the appearance of saif gadhafi. >> you can't believe the first report you hear and that's played out with the appearance of saif gadhafi in town. the really, the issue is what type of command and control exists among this rebel force that can really put in place
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some degrees of control around gadhafi's military that still exists? what are those units that have to be destroyed and how can they get that equipment from the forces and put them into locations so you could lock them down and do an inventory so they don't appear elsewhere in battle and more importantly, don't get sold on the black market. so it's critical for the next couple of days and what we've seen is not at all certain. >> bob, it seems that the opposition fighters, in the early days we saw how completely disorganized they were, shooting in the air and running forward and then retreating. jumping into vehicles. it was really complete chaos on the battlefield. they clearly began to get some direction and organization. how much of that do you think came from foreign special forces, from intelligence operatives, from nato and other countries? >> a lot of it has. nato has played a crucial role in this.
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and in order to hit these targets, as general mark knows you need close air support and communications with the airplanes and surveillance equipment. a lot of them are contractors, benghazi this summer and providing support. some of it was lethal support. and british commandos and the french. and they've played a key role and that's why we've seen a lot fewer hits on rebel forces. >> it's also why there's been less coverage of opposition troop movements because they've finally got sort of battlefield control over where reporters go. general marks, if the batting is -- battle is now in tripoli, what role does nato play in that? obviously there's air support and they can bomb but if it becomes a street to street fight, that becomes more difficult for nato to be involved with unless they use some sort of covert forces on the ground, no? >> absolutely, anderson. we've been talking about the
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inevitability of foreign boots on the ground. that will take place. whether the fighting assumes what we call street-to-street or block-to-block types of urban warfare or more importantly, during the periods of transition, and we'll state it as we see it, there will be a transition and it will be shortly, they've got to lock down gadhafi's military forces so they don't grow legs and go elsewhere and that takes some degree of force on the ground. >> there's also concern, bob, that they decide to do some sort of insurgency that gadhafi forces go out to the desert or some other area where they can operate and do a operation. how likely do you think that is? or does he not have the loyalty that that would require? >> no. he can do this. in the early part of the conflict he was talking about going to the desert. it's remote and hard to hit.
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this may be a fantasy on his part but remember, this is a tribal conflict and there's still tribal loyalties. it won't be like overthrowing saddam. once he was out there wasn't all that much loyalty. with gadhafi it's more tribal binding and we'll see resistance and as general marks said we have to get in there and some way, prevent a civil war, because that's a likelihood in a place like libya. >> i've been in countries that have fallen and i remember that once a dictator has been in power for a long period of time who many people owe their allegiance to, once he's seen to be weak, you never know what his forces are going to do. >> you don't. it's euphoria of the moment. what you have is gadhafi's forces. now everybody is trying to cut their own deal and everybody is in survival type of mode. his calls for some last-ditch effort to continue the fight really, are going to cause
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greater bloodshed. and then the rebels, which haven't demonstrated a lot of command and control, a lot of maturity and discipline, have now been able to achieve this or are about to achieve this great victory. the concern for score settling is very large. >> thank you both. coming up, president obama might be on vacation but he's closely involved with events playing out. we'll analyze the president's strategy on libya next. boy, i'm glad we got aflac huh. aflac! oh, i've just got major medical... major medical. ...but it helps pay the doctors. pays the doctors, boyyy! [ quack ] oh yeah? what about your family? ♪ we added aflac, so we get cash! it's like our safety net... ♪ to help with the mortgage or whatever we need! so my family doesn't feel the pain too.
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everyone has been waiting for this day for moammar gadhafi to get out. everyone is waiting for that very minute. they can capture the son and confidants of gadhafi but until they have gadhafi captured dead or alive, even in benghazi, people are still apprehensive because the man has been, quite frank hi, a bogeyman for everyone the chance that his followers . might take up arms. still very real. >> very real indeed. a very fluid situation as president obama today characterized the events unfolding inside libya. the president is monitoring developments from marthas
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vineyard where he's on vacation with his family. he spoke by phone to members of the national security council and with british prime minister david cameron. here's part of what he said. >> over the last several days, the situation in libya has reached a tipping point as the opposition increased its coordination from east to west, took town after town and the people of tripoli rose up to claim their freedom. for over four decades, libyan people have lived under the rule of a tyrant who denied them their most basic human rights. now the celebrations that we've seen in the streets of libya shows that the pursuit of human dignity is far stronger than any dictator. i want to emphasize that this is not over yet. as the regime collapses, there's still fierce fighting in some areas and we have reports of regime elements threatening to continue fighting. >> the president also said it is time for gadhafi to relinquish power to reduce further bloodshed. we're joined by fran townsend. in may of 2010, fran visited
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high-ranking officials at the invitation of the libyan government. we have william cohen. and we have representative of contractors and others. the u.s. strategy in this campaign leading from behind, taking a supporting role in the end, did it work? >> well, the question is, is it working? while success may be a delayed, i don't think it's going to be defeated. i think that over the next several days and weeks we'll see more intensification of the pressure being brought by the rebels. i don't think gadhafi will survive this. if he does it would be a major blow of play to united states and others. i don't see that as a viable outcome that he stays or remains with his son or others in power. >> not having a front role for the united states was obviously, a very big difference for u.s. foreign policy.
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the president received criticism early on. looking at it now how do you see it? >> i think president obama is very sincere in his belief that there's been a decline in american power. that's one. he's also very sincere in his belief that the arabs cannot be an american production. it can't be an american show. so basically from the beginning, from the time tunisia erupted and egypt erupted on to this moment in our history, i think the president has been keen to stay away from claiming paternity of this. >> fran, in terms of the obama administration and the way they have gone about it, what do you make of the policy so far? >> well, anderson, i think the best thing that happened was the endorsement -- the invitation of the arab league for foreign forces, the united states, to come in and respond to the situation in libya. and i think it was right to bring in nato. my argument here, my disagreement with them is only on the way we use nato's power. it's only in the last four to
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six weeks where nato really stepped up the bombing campaign but it became most effective with the gadhafi regime. i would have liked to have seen it earlier but if gadhafi falls we'll regard this as a success and learn from it for next time. >> the president called this an unprecedented international coalition. the make of it -- we've seen coalitions before but most of them u.s.-led. do you think this is a new precedent for interventions going forward? >> i think it's time for other countries to pick up their fair share of the burdens and these kinds of interventions on behalf of protecting people. i think the united states is not a declining power. our power has been stretched by virtue of what we've engaged for the past ten years in iraq and afghanistan. there's no other power on the planet that can match the united states today. but this is a important geopolitical statement as well. other countries have to step up and carry some of the burden.
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it can't be the united states leading every effort and other countries, whether it's the british were french or italians or others that have strong historical ties to libya, they have to play a bigger role. united states is bring their power to bear in forms of surveillance, direct munitions. we can do all of that but others need to step up and bear some of the load we've been carrying for many, many years now. >> if you were in syria tonight watching this, what do you think has gone through his mind? >> he must think he's next in line. he also understands the intervention that happened actually saved him. we were -- we became so gun-shy in libya there's no possibility of any intervention. but on some level, they must remain convinced that syria is a bigger nut to crack and a bigger challenge for the west, that
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he'll find -- he'll find a way to beat this rebellion and i think he's wrong. >> he was very cocky after egypt. he gave that interview, i think to the "wall street journal" if i'm not mistaking, kind of poopooing what was going on elsewhere saying nothing has changed in syria. >> why? because syria is a confrontation state against israel and when the revolution knocked on his door he was shocked that the reverberations of tunisia and egypt had reached in. >> fran, do you think change in syria is possible now in the wake of what we're seeing in libya? >> i do, anderson. and it's interesting that you asked about the message they is taken but i think the more interesting take is of the syrian people, in some ways, the notion that the libyan opposition over the course of months, regrouped and was able to get into tripoli with the support of the international community, is something of an inspiration to those in syria who have come out week after
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week, under relentless, degrading gunfire and abuse by their own government. and the message there is over time, with international community support, they, too, can be successful. so what you hope is that the syrian opposition take some inspiration and hope from what they're seeing right now in libya. >> there's a wonderful plaque seen. the libyan dictator called his people rats. so the plaque said syria salutes the rats of libya and the bond of these two populations seeking freedom from the two tyrannies. >> unless nato -- because of nato intervention, this is why they've been able to move so quickly. because of not just nato bombing but also, must have been training or, at least, some international force training, because early on we saw the lack of organization in these
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resistance fighters in libya? >> they've become better, certainly, as soldiers. a very short period of time. but it's clear in just watching them in the filming that you're putting on, that they're still -- they lack the kind of discipline and command and control that's so essential for a fighting force. they have raw determination to rid themselves of gadhafi and that counts a lot in any battle but i think as time goes on they'll get more support and more covert action and covert intelligence and overt intelligence. i think the united states and the nato countries will intensify the military activities to the extent we can without engaging with "collateral damage." that means when you target a urban area you have to be very, very concerned about how many innocent people you'll kill in that effort. >> tonight not just about those -- the libyans who have lost their lives in this
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struggle and the reporters, but of those people who have been locked in their homes now for months and months and hiding in their houses in tripoli, not able to speak, afraid to go outside and finally now feeling like they're on the cusp of something. >> exactly. they feel the breeze of freedom is coming their way and they're willing to take the risk because they know the past. they know gadhafi. they know his sons and they know the other sons and so on. i think they just want to see a new dawn for themselves. >> thank you so much. we'll hear more a little bit later in the program. more on saif gadhafi and his reappearance and his message for the opposition. we'll dig deeper into the power vacuum that the departure may leave. isha is following some other stories. back here in the u.s. a surprise turn in the sexual assault case against dominique strauss-kahn. he may be off the hook for allegedly assaulting a hotel
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late developments for tonight. we're traveling with the opposition fighters and they've just gotten to tripoli international airport. what's the situation there? >> anderson, the opposition fighters here arrived around 11:30 noon, after what they describe as being a fairly tough battle as they tried to make their way up around 30 miles out they encountered their first resistance from gadhafi's forces and they say that firefight lasted about two hours.
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another location, another battle for around half an hour. this second location was very close to a military compound. they said they were finally able to secure the compound and get their hands on the weapons that were there that they describe as being fairly extensive, before making their way up to the airport where they say they got into a significant fight with the battle was not as tough as the road had been on the way up. there were casualties on both sides and there have been ongoing clashes all day in the periphery and the perimeter of the airport. a few miles just outside, they've been consistently clashing with gadhafi forces. one location that's not too far away we're being told is one of the main military compounds and they expect a significant fight. what they're trying to do now is comb through the area surrounding the airport to try to fully secure them before they
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continue on their advance. because, anderson, the road out of the airport is a straight shot and the compound is knowing that the opposition wants to take over. the mood among the fighters has been fairly upbeat but they are quite tired but they are really, really determined and you see it etched on their faces. they realize that they have come this far. this is their main and final push and they're determined to take this until the end. we've been hearing sporadic gunfire and explosions in the distance so some clash appears to be happening in our vicinity. >> abwa, i think it's about 4:00 in the morning there. correct me if i'm wrong. how far is the airport from downtown tripoli? >> from what we've been able to gather it seems like the airport is around 13 to 15 miles from gadhafi's main compound. >> and are the opposition fighters in full control of the airport? do they control the runways? >> yeah. we haven't been able to get all the way up to the runway because of the late hour but they say yes, they do control the runways.
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there are aircrafts on there from various countries and they control the buildings in the compound and they say they have full control over all the entrances and telling us security stationed through the their hundreds of fighters in this area and they came up from the south and the majority of them, and then when they reached here they've been meeting up with a number of fighters from tripoli. people that effectively, were opposition sleeper cells, if that's what you want to call them, that was waiting for the signal before they rose up and got weapons. so groups from different parts have been advancing, merging, capitalizing on each other's experience and really trying to push forward as hard and fast as they can. >> i know you've been traveling but i'm not sure if you heard. saif gadhafi, who the opposition fighters had said they had apprehended and they were
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holding, he appeared several hours ago moving around freely in tripoli itself. have you heard that? have any of the fighters you're with heard that? >> they haven't said anything to that effect directly. but what i can say is we've heard various accounts of how much control they actually have over tripoli and it seems after the initial push into tripoli when they went all the way to the square, they felt they had control over large parts of the city and then they were pushed back. one of the groups we're with right now was telling us that they did end up pinned down in a lot of trouble in some parts of the city itself as they were able to escape. the other issue here is that this is such a fluid battlefield. there's so much information coming out and there's so much misinformation that's coming out which is why the fighters say that in terms of ending the units on the ground, they have to proceed with caution because communication, also, obviously, is a big challenge for them here.
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they have radios to try to communicate back and forth but that is not extend over a very long distance so irrelevant's quite challenging for them themselves with to actually see what's happening beyond the pinhole that they're fighting in. >> a lot of activity. stay safe, arwa, you and your crew. coming up, moammar gadhafi has ruled for so long, who's likely to fill the vacuum. we'll talk about that coming up. [ male announcer ] you never know when a moment might turn into something more. and when it does men with erectile dysfunction can be more confident in their ability to be ready with cialis for daily use. cialis for daily use is a clinically proven low-dose tablet you take every day, so you can be ready anytime the moment's right. ♪ [ man ] tell your doctor about all your medical conditions and medications and ask if your heart is healthy enough for sexual activity. don't take cialis if you take nitrates for chest pain as this may cause an unsafe drop in blood pressure.
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here's other stories outside libya. here's isha with the bulletin. the human rights council met in geneva and called on the government to stop cracking down on peaceful protesters and release anyone detained for protesting. the u.n. says more than 2200 people have been killed since the start of mass protests in mid march. on sunday, the president rejected the calls and again, promised steps towards political reform. new york district attorney recommended today that charges be dropped against former imf chief dominique strauss-kahn, sighting questions about his credibility. he was accused of sexually assaulting a hotel housekeeper in new york. the housekeeper's lawyer is asking the judge to halt proceedings and appoint a special prosecutor. and stocks ended slightly
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higher today, up 37 points. still, investors are worried about the outlet for the u.s. economy, ahead of the key speech by ben bernanke on friday. and lightning in the british virgin islands that destroyed the home of richard branson. he said about 20 people were in his home at the time, including actress, kate winslet. no one was injured. in an e-mail statement, he was thanking winslet for helping to carry out his 90-year-old mother. >> so sad. so sad the house was destroyed. glad everyone got out safe. thank you very much. if and when gadhafi goes what comes next? what might a new libya look like? some answers when we come back. a vacation on a budget with expedia. make it work. booking a flight by itself is an uh-oh. see if we can "stitch" together a better deal.
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>> for so many in libya moammar gadhafi is the only ruler they've known. he was young in 1969 when he took power at 27 years old when he ousted the king. when he's gone, there's no doubt there will be a power vacuum of some sort and expected to be filled by the national transitional council formed earlier this year as the defense against gadhafi took route. benghazi is the oppositional strong hold and is expected to move to tripoli as soon as opposition forces take over. the u.s., britain and others have recognized them as the new government but a lot of observers say the council has its work cut out for it. i spoke to robert baer.
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and anne marie at the state department who is a professor of international affairs at princeton university. fuad, this obviously isn't iraq but you hear the concerns about the possibility of gadhafi loyalists dissolving away and then -- >> i'm glad you mentioned iraq. it was the war after the war. the regime of saddam hussein fell in april and saddam was captured in december. there was seven or eight months between the capture and the new regime pop so there's uncertainty. no doubt the gadhafi has practically fallen. >> no matter what saif gadhafi says? >> yes. i have a grievians against saif
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because they captured and now he's made this appearance. i think the regime has fallen. what happens in libya next is, of course, anyone's guess but the prospects for the libyan people are promising. there can be no possibility that the regime would rise in libya that would equal the tyranny and brutality of this regime. >> bob baer, we don't have the religious problems in libya like iraq but there's tribal divisions. how serious do you think the disputes or the potential for fault lines are? >> i think there's a potential for a lot and you have the berbers who aren't really arab and they played a key role in taking tripoli from what we heard in the countries divided east and west and you have tribal groups and they still have the ga gadhafi tribe that
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has loyalty. and remember, this country has had no serious -- any sort of political institutions to build a democracy on. i think it's going to need a lot of help. i think we need to get in there at some level international level, to provide that help to avoid the possibility of the civil war because it's always going to be a vacuum when a regime like this falls that's so brutal. you have to rebuild the police, the military and right from the ground of parliament. >> and anne marie, what's so stunning about this is the that for all the money that gadhafi has made, that the oil revenues have brought that country, that he did not -- and for all his talk about building apartment blocks and caring for people, their hospitals are miserable. their school system is pathetic. he had such an opportunity to enrich his own people, there's not that many people in libya and yet, he chose not to do that and now this is a country where the institutions need to be rebuilt. >> you're right. a country of 6 million people with tremendous oil wealth that has been not used for his people. and it is going to take quite a
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lot of time to rebuild the institutions or build the institutions for the first time. but i do think before we immediately look at all the trouble ahead and we're already seeing, of course, the fighting isn't over, it's still worth recognizing that six months ago, gadhafi was threatening benghazi with tanks and planes. he could have crushed the opposition completely. he was doing it already. and the world intervened. there was a real debate and the world intervened and six months later, the rebels are in tripoli. that's a tremendous accomplishment. so before we plunge into what's coming, i think it's worth remembering that. >> fuad, has nato been a success here? you were critical of the obama administration for being slow to get into this, for the way they got into it. looking back now, what do you make of it? >> i think there's a libyan patriot, a libyan who corresponds with me and she sent me an e-mail and said -- libya
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is nearly free. we're on the edge of freedom and nato was late. i think the american policy was late. i think the recognition of the transition council should have come months earlier. but nevertheless, you don't quibble now with this spectacle of freedom in libya because i'm convinced that this regime is finished. this regime is over. >> anne marie, there's concern as always, about islamic extremists. about al qaeda. there were reports that it was the second highest number of people who went to iraq to fight against the u.s. forces came from libya. is that a real concern moving forward for libya? >> it is certainly something we have to watch and there is some evidence that arms that have been sent into libya have fallen into al qaeda's hands. and the national transitional council has a charter of transition in which it's clear


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