tv Piers Morgan Tonight CNN October 21, 2011 12:00am-1:00am PDT
their own people out of the country, so many chinese people when the revolution began. thanks so much for joining us. tomorrow, bull we will talk about the 999 plan, herman cain going to defend it tomorrow morning, going to break it down and also going to pakistan. we met some young men there who could tonight, the final moments of a desperate dictator. what really happened? the amazing inside story of how they finally got moammar gadhafi hiding in a sewer pipe. killed in a ferocious and bloody fight. up to 42 brutal years in power. in the end, the bloody dictator was stripped of his golden gun by one of the men that he had labeled brats.
we'll talk exclusively to the man that could take over and what it means for libya, the u.s., and the world. >> and it's also going to send a powerful message around not only the arab world but frankly to dictators everywhere about the dangers of hanging on for too long. >> this is a special edition of "piers morgan tonight." you're looking at dramatic video at the end of moammar gadhafi's life. the content is graphic. [ speaking foreign language] >> as you can see, it's been an extraordinary and dramatic day in libya.
here's what we know. the day begins with a bloody battle. rebels finally hit the dictator's hometown of sirte. moammar gadhafi makes a run for it in a convoy and is reportedly spotted by a u.s. drone and it's fed to french air force jets. they spotted him in a ditch on the side of the road. he crawls into a drain pipe, his last desperate hiding place. they spray paint the entrance, gadhafi was here, they write. they take his golden gun as a momento. there are conflicting reports of what happened next. gadhafi is still alive, roughed up by the rebels, called a rat, he dies on the way to the hospital and pictures also show a gunshot wound in his forehead word spread across the country. i'm speaking with dan rivers,
who is live in libya. an extraordinary day for libya. how do you describe the mood there? >> reporter: piers, the crowds have been firing their weapons on the crowd, many of them -- the traffic has been stacked up behind me. as news broke, first of all, that sirte had fallen and gunfire and the ships in the harbor were sounding their horns. people could not believe the news. and then slowly the crowd down
in the green square, many people carrying photos of loved ones who died in the revolution and who died at the hands of gadhafi's regime. there was poignancy as well as celebration. >> this has been conflicting reports throughout the day about exactly what happened. from what you've been able to work out, do we know the sequence of events? do we have a clearer picture? >> reporter: well, this is our understanding at the moment. there was an early morning push by the ntc troops into district two, which was the last facion being held by the gadhafi troops. they tried to make a run for it on the highway going to the west. there was a nato air strike, we're told, at 8:30 that involved a predator drone and french mirage jets.
they don't believe that gadhafi was killed by their strike. we then see this footage that showed gadhafi being captured. what we think happen is that he took shelter from the air strike in that underground culvert, under the drain there, under the road. sheltered from the fighting. at some point was then captured by the rebels and brought up. that's when you see the video. according to the ntc, he had already been shot in the arm. they claim, then, that they were trying to take him to the hospital when the vehicle he was in was hit by crossfire and he was hit in the head. other reports suggest in fact he was actually executed by ntv members. that's something that the ntc is denying vehemently. maybe we will never know what happened. >> extraordinary details, brand
dishing a golden gun, that he was screaming, don't shoot, don't shoot. and even turned to a rebel at one stage and said, why are you doing this to me? what have i done to you? >> reporter: extraordinary. the parallels with suddam hussein are there. he and gadhafi both went back to their hometowns and found in the underground trapped in the most kind of extraordinary fashion. here i think the difference is we've got multiple videos of gadhafi being captured and more is being brought to light all the time, piers, there are different angles showing essentially the same thing from different mobile phones. what really happened? was he really caught by crossfire as they tried to take him to the hospital as the ntc
claims or was this out of control and someone decided to execute him on the spot? >> thank you very much. ambassador, a very happy day, i imagine. >> thank you. it is a happy day in my life and happiest day for the libyan people. and also the americans share with us the happiness. the end of dictatorship. it's a great thing that happened and i'm very happy to be alive on this beautiful day. >> ambassador, you represent the united states on the national transitional council, clearly a success for the force that was there. but there is this question mark over whether moammar gadhafi
died on the way to the hospital over injuries that he sustained and whether he was executed. do you know the answer to that question and i guess the other question i'd ask you is, do you care? >> i care about one thing. that gadhafi is no more alive, no more alive to kill more people. that's the great news to me. the way, how he was killed, this is something else. the libyan people, i can assure to you, and the ntc, they want him alive. they want the libyan people to have the chance to ask him questions and i think even the americans want to see him alive to ask him questions about what happened to the americans who are being killed by the terrorist. and you can see that he was
bleeding when the first time we saw his redo of the photo after the captures. >> ambassador, thank you very much. >> yeah, to me -- >> thank you very much, ambassador. >> yeah. thank you very much. okay. joining me now for his first interview since moammar gadhafi's death is his highest prince whose family was overthrown by gadhafi 42 years ago. thank you for joining me. what a moment for you and your family and your country. >> i was giving a speech in rome. i couldn't sit still. i wanted to go out and pick up the phone and speak to people in benghazi, speak to people in tripoli. people were so happy. i can't explain it to you. i feel finally i can go back to
a free country, a country that i have loved and i have never detached myself from and i feel proud that the libyan people have done it themselves and finally we have a free libya. >> how do you see the future for libya mapping out? >> well, the future for libya is very bright. and they have always protected the minorities and of course we are now working to make it our program, work with the minorities, working with everybody and libya based on a civil society free, based on human rights and building a country. >> your role in a future libyan government? >> no, i'm not talking about government. of course i will have a role in building part of the civil
society. i am a libyan and will have a right like any other libyan. we want to build rights based on an individual no matter the gender or race. but that's not my role. i think if i'm not in the government, if i am a businessman or whatever, in libya, that's what i will work to try to do this kind of thing. >> prince al senussi, thank you for being here and congratulations to you and your family.
i'm now joined by his brother. your royal highness, a big day for you and the world. >> yes what happens about oil now? >> well, oil going to be developed, bring back to 1.6 to 2 million barrels a day. we will ask international companies to participate with us, to develop our country and to bring economic prosperity to our people. >> how do you feel on a personal level? i asked your brother about this. but a pretty extraordinary day. 42 years you've had to watch this dictator ravishing the country that you love so much. when you saw the video footage, how did you feel? >> it is an understatement if i tell you that -- i can't even
describe. i got an early phone call from my family in benghazi i was told around 5:00 that gadhafi was finished. i've been told from many libyans and from different parts in benghazi and tripoli and elsewhere and being an extraordinary day is beyond any way i can express. i look forward to joining them, you know, in the future. >> it certainly has. and i salute you and your family on what must be a very special day for you. thank you for being here, your special highness. >> thank you for having me. >> on the former coalition committee, sir, what a day. where were you when you heard the news? >> it certainly is a great day, for the libyan people and a
great day for those who are concerned about -- were concerned about gadhafi's engagement of terrorism in the world and certainly for the united states in terms of the leadership role it played in stopping the slaughter of innocent civilians, which is how this whole process started with gadhafi bombing the innocent and then making sure we had a no-fly zone. >> is this president obama lucky or a skillful plan to get rid of top terrorists and tyrants. because it's going very well, whatever it is? >> well, he has an extraordinary record. others have talked about taking out those who have created harm in the united states, such as september 11th.
those who have created harm on the bombing of pan am 103, but it is this president that has systematically eliminated al za ferrari, and now moammar gadhafi. that is not by luck. that is by a thoughtful knowledge of intelligence and bringing the community together in common cause. >> i sense there is a debate now about whether the united states should be repaid the several billion dollars this operation has cost from the frozen assets that libya has of 30 to 36 billion, depending on which report you read. what is your view on that? >> well, i certainly think that we should be talking to the transitional council to
establish a government in libya and, you know, we have anywhere between 30 and $36 billion in frozen assets. it might very well be that they will have the wherewithal, especially when oil production gets back up and running, to look towards repaying the united states. that's not why we did this, obviously, but nonetheless it would be an excellent gesture. along with something that i have been pushing for quite some time, which is making sure that the transitional national council works with us in giving us access to those who still may be in their domain of the gadhafi regime who have been part of the pan am bombing where 200 citizens lost their lives, including 34 from my home state of new jersey. >> senator menendez, thank you for your time. >> thank you. when we come back, where does libya and the world go from here? [ bell rings ] distracted [ female announcer ] once you taste new fiber one 80 calories...
you have won your revolution and now we will be your partner as you provide a future that provides freedom, opportunity, and freedom. >> president obama's message today for the libyan people. joining me is nick kristoff. we've spoken many times in the last ten months about the arab spring uprising. where does this fit in the demise of moammar gadhafi? >> this is a huge milestone. some of the other arab revolutions haven't gone so well. you look at syria and nigeria and even egypt is pretty messing. this, i think, is going to end the opposition to the new libyan
government and it's going to send a powerful message around not only the arab world but to dictators about the dangers of hanging on too long. i think this is going to build moral in places like syria and yemen and protests and i got tweets from people in bahrain saying, us, too. >> yeah. it's been an extraordinary time for that whole region. i mean, in gadhafi's case, there he was calling these rebels rats and he was killed like a rat. >> three-quarters of libyans have known no other ruling and
it's inconceivable what has happened and to me it's a reminder that history doesn't just inch along. it's in huge continuities and i think that's what we're prepared to see around the world as well. >> there's a debate today about what this means. president obama and vice president biden making a big play of, hey, $2 billion spent, no american troops on the ground, although people are questioning the voracity of that statement, wondering if there were special forces and so on. there was a special day of dealing with gadhafi to the way do you see we'll see a sea change here in terms of foreign policy? >> i don't think this is going to have us moving into syria or other places but there was
something remarkable in the western powers, not only the u.s., but britain and france, western powers moved in not after you had a mass atrocity but beforehand when one was threatened in benghazi and averted that and i hope it sends a message sometimes the military and obviously it's not the end for libya in terms of how it rebuilds itself by any means. lots of concerns now about what happens in the country next. we've seen in egypt how complicated it can be when you get rid of a death spot in terms of getting some kind of stable scenario going post death spot. what do you think will happen to libya in the short to middle term? >> i have people who point to the tribal of libya, the lack of
unity, the lack of civil society. but, frankly, i'm more optimistic than a lot of other people. i think the oil revenue that libya has, the relatively small population, the ability to buy people off to generate economic development is going to help. and i was also really struck when i was in libya next month at the willingness of the revolutionaries to forgive the pro gadhafi forces and they despise them but didn't loot their homes, steal their cars, they didn't beat them up. and i hope that's a sign that libyans are willing to look ahead and build a new country together. >> nate kristof, thank you very much. >> my pleasure. now to go to one of the best-known journalists. dan, you interviewed moammar gadhafi three times. you know him as well as any other american journalist. what were your thoughts when you heard that he was finally gone? >> well, the first thought was
this was an erratic mysterious murderous that evil is as evil does and this is as evil often ends as we saw with suddam hussein. libya is a unique case but it's probably the best story, the biggest story of the early 21st century as it fits into the arab spring which is now into the arab autumn. there's still a long way to go as people you've spoken tonight have pointed out. we had the will power, the fire power. now the question is, do we have the spaying power for the very hard work tone sure that libya does not move into widespread violence or possibly even civil war that some kind of stable,
civil government, from our view point, preferably a stable government. piers, we learned in the afghanistan of the 1980s, you'll recall that after the russians were driven out, the united states looked the other way and we paid a high price for that because the taliban moved into the vacuum. that won't happen in libya but there's a lot of work to be done and libya still hangs in the balance. as we have seen what happens, that when these sorts of things happen, each one is unique to, each thing that happens to the islamist, the hardcore more fundamental wing of islam, it creates complexities and dangers. there's a danger here for us, we americans who are allies in
europe and for others who wish libya well to forget that there's still a lot of work to be done. one huge question, which has been referred to in your program tonight, is what happens to the oil? libya has tremendous oil reserves but so does iraq and we thought right after the iraq war, the oil production would start fairly soon and that will fuel and finance a comeback for iraq. it didn't happen in iraq. i think it can happen in libya. i think it will happen in libya. it's one of the questions. but a lot of questions flow out of this. what happens to moammar gadhafi's son? that he's now has a period and is going around talking like a man out of a mosque. he's out there somewhere. also, al qaeda. they will see the situation now
that even with gadhafi dead, so much opportunity, so much instability in libya, it's hard to not believe that al qaeda will not be and it's important to know that it's not over. this is an opening of a new era for libya, part of the bigger new era of europe for the middle east but fraught with a lot of opportunities and also with a lot of dangers and challenges. there are limbs to power. and one of the lessons that we should not draw out of this, is because it was successful and necessarily on the ground, thanks to predators and other air power, that it will be easier elsewhere. the lesson we got out of vietnam, we've had to learn it over and over again, there are
limits to power. this was a trial for the moment, the question now is can we build on that and help the libyans become what they can become. >> i have former secretary of state for political and military affairs. colonel, you heard dan rather there. it's a day to be excited and to feel that the world is probably a better place with gadhafi gone and yet it's become potentially a more dangerous place as we have the other arab spring what happens next? what do you think? >> well, i think, first of all, dan rather was precise in his forecast and i associate myself with those comments as women. this is a country that has been held like yugoslavia and contained for the last 42 years. we saw what happens in the balkins and after tito died. we saw that happen to some extent in iraq. the community has to be part of
assisting the national council, not walking away like we did in afghanistan but actually be involved in the bringing along of the new libya. it would be catastrophic if we allowed that area to turn into another theocracy or another failed state like somalia. >> are you encouraged by the way that america behaved in relation to this military operation? is it prudent of america now in terms of the military policemen and to take a bit of a back seat in this kind of operation or does that in itself concern you? >> well, it doesn't concern me. i was glad to see nato take a front seat and the nato nations who we have pushed on for years and years take more of a leading role. but this operation demonstrates
that nato still has a long way to go. it revealed significant gaps in the militaries, in some of the european militaries. and i hope that nato, after the celebrations, will sit down and do a serious reflection on what went right, what went wrong, and how to improve. >> dan, if i said to you, here's how it is going to go, we're going to get rid of suddam hussein, osama bin laden and take out gadhafi, you would have thought i was crackers. isn't this extraordinary what was going on? >> it's absolutely extraordinary. it's not nearly over. it's absolutely extraordinary. and what strikes me is that nobody predicted this, i among those didn't foresee it at all. and we9 should remember how this
began. with a peasant man in tunisia, mistreated by the police at his vegetable cart who felt so strongly about it that he committed suicide over it and that's what touched this all off. that shouldn't be forgotten as we think about what happened here today. but where it goes from here is just as unpredictable as things were in, say, 2002, 2003. and i've lived long enough to know, piers, he who lives by the crystal ball learns how to eat a lot of broken glass. anyone who tells you that they know what is going to happen in libya, they ought to go away. >> i think you're right. dan rather, thank you very much. >> thank you. i'm going to talk to a professor who was been in libya all summer advising libyans on how to form a new government. [ male announcer ] a raw nose can feel really sore. achoo! [ male announcer ] and common tissue can make it burn even more.
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you're watching a brand-new video, a son of moammar gadhafi wounded before he was pronounced dead. building a government from scratch and modern institutions, one man helping to figure it all out is a professor to the united nations. thank you for joining me. >> my pleasure. >> are they equipped, the ntc,
to build a new government? >> well, the ntc has, i think, made great progress since the uprising started in february and that was while they were in benghazi, they conscientiously tried to create a new government and create a stabilization team as they had in dubai come up with a number of solutions for libya. now, by the time that the actual invasion of tripoli took place in august, it was very clear that there were some fault lines emerging within that interim council that was still in ben benghazi at that time and now, of course, that council is or will be completely in tripoli and a lot of those fault lines
that started to emerge are still there and now, of course, the rubber hits the road. it's time for the tnc to come to terms with all of the problems that libya now faces, concillation, economic development, this is a country that 42 years systematically south any kind of opposition group, any kind of civil society and to the gadhafi regime. in a sense, what the tnc, the transitional council is up again, is really creating for the first time a modern state in libya and, in addition to that and force more libyans. >> libya is a very, very tribal country. does that make it more difficult to foresee any kind of conventional democratic developing? is it harder when you have so many different tribe elements?
>> i think the divisions that we're seeing in libya and the fault lines that i mentioned just a minute ago do make it difficult, i think, to really go very quickly and any kind of democratic the way that you and the eight months and i think may be quite problematic and in a society that is so ridden cleavages and saw the eight months that the tnc has south out may stretch beyond that term and the country also needs a new constitution. it needs a new cabinet, and then it needs the elections, of course. all of this quite difficult, particularly in light of the kind of history and that libya has had for the last 42 years. >> professor vandewalle, thank you very much, indeed.
>> my pleasure. when we come back, he used to be a voice in the wilderness. now he can raise his voice. we talk to one of moammar gadhafi's worst victims. [ male announcer ] it's true... consumers er wanchai ferry orange chicken... over p.f. chang's home menu orange chicken women men and uh pandas... elbows mmm [ male announcer ] wanchai ferry, try it yourself.
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as libya celebrates tonight, 1995 and duress and torture of a horrendous crime infecting children and sentenced to death three times for his release in 2007. the crimes he's always insisted he had nothing to do with and many impartial viewers agree he had nothing to do with us. doctor, thanks for joining me. what were your immediate thoughts when you heard that moammar gadhafi was killed? >> thank you. it was a very mix kind of feeling. from one side i was happy that there is no more dictator called
gadhafi on the earth. on the other side, i was feeling sad about the fact that i received the sufferings, the 8 years and a half, blaming me to be a criminal, to be the doctor of hiv while i am completely innocent and my colleagues, too. >> you were sentenced to death three times, it was rescinded and you were tortured in an appalling fashion and all crimes that you never committed. a dreadful experience. 50 of those children have since died from the hiv infection that they sustained, but this had nothing to do with you or your colleagues. is this indicative, do you think, of the kind of monster that gadhafi was, that he would put you through such a thing?
>> let me say that gadhafi was dependent on one thing, on his oil and his business deals because we were captured in the first place because of an american, because he wouldn't release from the british prison. and that's why he took us as hostages, to release. we were the heading victims behind benam as long as the victims of. >> how did you feel personally when you saw the images of gadhafi's body being pulled through the streets of libya and you realized the end was there? how did you feel personally? >> sir, i am a victim of gadhafi regime.
my feelings are different and in the same time they are very complex to be clarify or to say -- to say them in words. but for sure it's the end of dictatorship which i am happy that the world will be little bit in kind of calmness after gadhafi. because i am responsible, sir, because gadhafi was responsible for most of the international crimes all over the world. >> so do you think the world is a much safer place now that gadhafi is gone? >> i am -- i am completely convinced that the world will be much calmer without dictators like gadhafi and they hope that other dictators will go down, too, very soon.
wherever they are, in asia, africa, or wherever they are. we saw what gadhafi did to his people. we saw how he killed them with cold blood. >> doctor, thank you very much for your time. >> thank you very much for yours, sir. >> gadhafi is dead but will it bring an end to the pain that the families suffered because of the bombing of pan am 103? [ medicare. it doesn't cover everything.
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>> americans will always associate moammar gadhafi with the bombing of pan 157803 in lockerbie and scotland and family members of the victims were vocal. i am joined by a woman whose husband was killed that day. i have talked to you a few times last few months and always wondered whether you would feel any sense of closure if you heard gadhafi was dead. how do you feel today? >> well, first of all, i feel elated and vindicated as to what has unfolded today. i think this was a day that i could hardly even dream about. it is a day that victims of gadhafi terrorism as well as the libyan people can breathe a sigh of relief knowing that gadhafi cannot come back and continue
his reign of brutality. >> there is a kind of change, awful irony that al megrahi, who was the man accused of committing that atrocity that killed your husband is still alive and nearly two years or so after he was released. how do you feel about that? >> i think everyone in the gadhafi regime that was involved with terrorist attacks against america should be held accountable and obviously, al megrahi was convicted of the crime but other members of the gadhafi regime that are still at large that need to be brought to justice. you know, there's the international criminal court indictments that are still out there against sinusi who is gadhafi's brother-in-law, save al islam, gadhafi's son and all
the different factions of the gadhafi regime part of the brutalizing his own people as well as attacking innocent civilians all over the world, still are at large and need to be brought to justice. >> victoria, would you rather have seen gadhafi captured alive and brought to justice, put on trial, or are you happy that he was possibly executed in fairly the brutal fashioning by the rebels? >> well, a month ago, i had met with the current libyan president, president jalil, who pledged to me that he and his regime wanted to bring gadhafi to justice, not only for the murder of john and other innocent civilians but also for the murder of his people.
he said that since february 17th, gadhafi had killed over 35,000 n civilians and in his 40-year regime, had killed tens of thousands of libyans and they wanted him tried and brought to justice. he also said to me at that point in time that there was a brutal war going on and the conditions around his capture and arrest were very volatile. and as we saw today, you know, you -- you saw what happened to gadhafi, who was a man that lived by the sword and died by the sword and the rage that those who captured him felt. i mean, that's over 40 years of rage. i only experienced one day of gadhafi brutality, but everyone there in libya has lived for over 40 years of this man's brutal dictatorship and justice