tv Anderson Cooper 360 CNN November 29, 2011 11:00pm-12:00am PST
hopefully it won't cost me my business. >> keep fighting the good fight, t-shirt guy, because when it comes to epic battles involving esoteric trademark law, we'll root for a man with just a squeegee and a dream. that's it for us. "erin burnett outfront" starts next. i'm erin burnett "outfront" tonight.
he is a rocket scientist. he worked for the navy. graduated from moore house college. pro-life man and all of that. this really boils down to if you have two african-american men in the general election with opposing political views, the race card goes away. there can be no question of race. they're both black men. and it will change that base. many people who voted for mr. obama in the last election did so based on skin color. so you have two men with the same color skin and we are going to hear real political issues from opposing political viewpoints. that's really what this is about. >> so tell me, you've known herman cain for a long time. you're a woman though and obviously women sometimes see
these sorts of allegations differently than men. why do you believe herman cain? is there a little part of you somewhere inside that says, gosh, where there's smoke, there's fire. i've got a little doubt. >> there are so many women who know mr. cain. we've known him for many years. a woman knows a skirt chaser when a woman sees a skirt chaser. mr. herman cain doesn't chase skirts. he chases solutions for america. so these allegations are not true. and it's so strange that many of these women, for three years coming out of the restaurant association, many affiliated with chicago. the man is not a skirt chaser. there are too many women for herman cain who will tell you that unequivocally. and i'm one of them. and i get text messages from him and there's nothing improper about those conversations at all. >> you have specific reasons for not believing ginger white. >> well, you know, one reason, if you think about miss white. she said she's had an affair with mr. cain for 13 years. and it was intriguing, it was exciting. now this is a man who has been fighting cancer. he victoriously won it on chemotherapy with a low libido who was supposed to be having an affair with a lady at the time
that he was recovering from cancer. on chemotherapy? so how much affair was going on? no affair. the lady is not telling the truth. >> are you going to stick with him? how will you feel if it turns out these allegations turn out to have been true? >> this is tabloid politics. you know, people really want to hear about the issues. we want to hear more about 9-9-9. about opportunities zones. about his energy plan. these are the go things that america wants to hear. we want to get rid of the race card. sent two black men into the general election. let them talk from different perspectives. hear what mr. herman cain is saying. america wants solutions. america wants a leader. no more tabloid politics. president obama is chasing around stimulus dollars on a failing stimulus plan and here's the man with the solution that
can heal america. >> thank you very much. a passionate defense for herman cain, as you can see who at this moment is speaking in hillsdale, michigan. as our sources say, expected to make a decision possibly on the future of his candidacy in the next few days. let's bring in john avlon, senior columnist for the daily beast. strategist and the former bush deputy secretary and republican strategist. okay. let me put this question to you. can he survive this? there is the whole smoke/fire question. there is the fact that nobody wants anybody talking about their libido on national tv, even in defense of them. >> yeah, that's right. i do think it is solely up to mr. cain as to whether or not he stays in the race. ultimately he'll have to make the decision as to whether he can recover from this. whether the odds are too long and whether he can continue to see this sustained damage of his reputation. his campaign was built on media attention last month. that's how he gained his rise to the polls.
it was an untraditional campaign. not built on organization. and i think in this case, it is a little bit of live by the sword, die by the sword. the media coverage of his campaign obviously has turned very swiftly and i'm not sure he can recover. i think the allegations that we heard this week about the affair lead to that, where there is smoke, there may be fire. and it seems he may be smoked out of the race because of all of it. >> let me throw up a cnn poll in november. who is your second choice? for gop voters, newt gingrich, number one. 38% of would be voters who are voting for cain at the time said they would vote for gingrich. if cain wasn't in the race. and 25% said romney. john, i mean what do you think of that? this is newt's win. >> that's exactly right. the poll was done before these latest round of allegations really sunk in. what you see is that gingrich is coalescing the conservative alternative to the romney vote
that had moved from perry to herman cain in the month of september. we've spent a month of this presidential campaign talking about this man's sex life with allegations that are ugly and harmful. it is a sign of how much the side show has moved into the big tent. we drag this out this week. ultimately herman cain and his wife gloria will decide if this campaign goes on. >> and of course the donors. >> in that donor e-mail, they categorically said ginger white's story was false when his own lawyer gave the classic nondenial, denial. not saying that. you set up a real problem here. you can't contradict yourself this way and survive. >> let me ask you, it's interesting. newt gingrich gaining from this has its own level of irony. right? newt gingrich has survived in his past affairs to which he has admitted. he has been forthright about that. his quote was newt has been honest and forthright that he had regrets, he's had to seek reconciliation and go to god for forgiveness. it is on his own website here. but how do you think this
affects -- there is an irony here, am i wrong. >> >> it is certainly an irony. and it would take herman cain to make newt gingrich's personal life not look so outrageous. so sometimes when you're herman cain, you've got to pick your chips up and your cards, leave the table and buy yourself into another game. unless you're going to spend all your money here, he doesn't have anything left. so i think if herman cain really wants to be a speaker, a writer, an author, get a show or whatever else he wants to do, now is maybe the time to get moving and find something else to do. it is amazing that we've spent the last few weeks talking about this when this is not, these are not the issues of the country. herman cain is not going to be president. he's not going to win the nomination. if he wins the nomination, it's a very steep road to beat the president of the united states. so i would like for to us get back to talking about some of these other candidates who really do stand a chance. >> and the issues.
forgetting herman cain, there is something to be said about a tabloid level on all candidates. >> we don't talk substance, we don't talk policy. the other candidates have a hard time getting into the conversation. especially if they're trying to put forward real policy plans. that only cheats the american people and reduces the whole level of the presidential campaign. >> you know the thing about newt gingrich is, newt gingrich probably does know who the president of uzbekistan is. at least newt gingrich read his briefing books and we know when he sits at the table, he is ready to play. >> thanks to all three. we appreciate you taking the time. "outfront" next, american airlines files for bankruptcy. they don't have showers on their planes. i'll explain. a crowd of protesters storms the embassy in tehran. after iran's parliament voted to expel the british ambassador. and the latest from the syracuse molestation scandal. the police chief admits his force failed to follow up on tips of abuse they got nine years ago.
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horton discussed with our richard quest. >> our labor costs alone are something on the order of $800 million higher than our big competitors on average. >> rising oil costs and the weaker global economy also hurting american airlines, forcing it to file for bankruptcy. but this brings us to our number tonight. 34. that's how many passenger airlines have filed for bankruptcy in america in the past ten years. one airline we spoke to says that american airlines, and we're talking about the group now, just not the company, faced stricter rules and more taxes than many of the international counterparts and it hurts them. it sure shows. take a look at these pictures from singapore. that's coach on singapore airlines. lufthansa. that's not coach. emirates airlines. nice seats. do you know what that is? that's a shower. not that. but you saw it.
a shower on emirates. we're not saying we should go that far but airlines are sort of something where it is a point of national pride and they stand for your country around the world. someone gets on an american airlines plane, the tray table's nasty and it has sticky food and you get on lufthansa and the tray table is clean. a appointment of national pride. something to think about. for those of you who are planning to flight on american airlines, don't worry, your flight should be unaffected by the bankruptcy filing, but just something to chew on. a crowd of iranian protesters began throwing rocks. now it ended with a dozen arrests and the protests came after iran's parliament voted to expel the ambassador for the economic sanctions. after a report suggested iran was working on acquiring nuclear weapons. joining us cambridge, massachusetts, correspondent david sanger. great to see you.
let me ask you, what happened today? we've had protests before at this embassy. this was violent. there was a lot of vitriol. what happened? >> i think what was remarkable about this particular protest is that it appeared to have been government sanctioned at a fairly large number of what the iranians said were students, but perhaps they could have been members of the force or some official iranian force, came in and ransacked the embassy. the embassy building in tehran is a very large complex about the size of the whole white house complex. and they tore up the place. they lit a car on fire. there have been conflicting reports about whether or not they may have briefly held some employees hostage. they were later released and eventually riot police got them out. >> so what happens here? obviously britain had gone further than the u.s. when it comes to the central bank of iran. they said we're not going to do business with you anymore. that was something the u.s. has been so gung-ho on sanctions
pulled back a little bit from. is that indicative of how much that hurt iran or intended to be a lesson or a signal to the u.s.? >> i think there were a couple of things going on, as you suggested. the first is there is no u.s. embassy. there hasn't been one since the u.s. and iran broke diplomatic relations after the hostage crisis in 1979. so the british were the next best target. secondly, as you indicate, the sanctions in recent weeks at the british have invoked are significantly harsher. they've basically cut off all dealings with the central bank. the obama administration didn't go that far because they were concerned if they did, they would have to cut off relationships with banks of friendly countries that do business with tehran, including the japanese and south koreans and others. i think the third thing that's going on is tehran wants to indicate they're not going to simply take these sanctions. there will be a price to be paid in the west. >> what's your bottom line view
on this? you've spent years and years reporting on this story. but iran and a nuclear weapon. is it really inevitable? >> you know, i think at this point, it would be very difficult to stop if the current regime in iran remains in place. what you've really seen happen in the past two or three years is really a race against time in which the united states and israel have tried to, among other countries, slow the iranian program. partly through sanctions. partly through sabotage like stuck smith, the computer virus that killed off many of the centrifuges for a while. and what they're hoping is that there is some change of political decisions about the nuclear program in iran while it slowed down. but you can't slow it forever. and it's unclear despite what governments say whether or not they're willing to take further steps. >> that will be a story the world watches. david sanger, thanks. late today the credit rating agency s&p downgraded six major american banks. this was thanks in large part to
exposure to europe. this could mean loans are harder to come by in america and interest rates are higher for borrowers. it is proof of how much europe matters to americans. but the truth is there is not a lot of appetite in america to help europe right now, and the administration says it won't. >> we do not in any way believe that additional resources are required from the united states from american taxpayers. >> taxpayers, maybe so. here's the bottom line. europe matters so much to america that we already are helping them every single day. ben bernanke is the man in charge. lou breem is an economist and he explains the u.s. federal reserve led by ben bernanke has made unlimited dollars available to european banks, including a few downgraded by s&p today. like deutsch bank, and others. the fed can go further. ben bernanke has the authority to buy the debt of foreign governments.
the fed has said they won't use this power to bail out foreign governments, that they would only purchase highly rated foreign government debt. as of tonight that means they can buy the debt of germany, france and britain. they're all highly rated. the u.s. treasury could be out there buying bonds to keep europe from crashing. we called the fed and didn't get a comment tonight. by the way, for those of you keeping scoring, the batch downgrade included two banks that's got upgraded. both are chinese. "outfront," the "outfront" five facebook getting ready for $100 billion ipo? and speaking of privacy, we can't resist telling you all about something -- we're not supposed to talk about. [ male announcer ] not sure what to take? now robitussin® makes finding the right relief simpler than ever. click on the robitussin® relief finder.
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now a story. we can't resist even though maybe we should. the world toilet summit was held in china this week. it is the 11th annual summit of that particular sort. the annual event brings together top government officials in academics to solve the world's sanitation problems. but they also know how to have some fun. in addition to some very serious lectures and discussions, the summit also includes a showcase of exciting developments in the world of toilets and toilet accessories. this year the heads of the world's largest toilet companies in the world and we assume their number twos were also there were wowed by one particular product.
a toilet made entirely of gold. yes. and like a car show, a beautiful lady to show it. this fully functional toil set coated with a layer of 24 karat gold and valued at more than $200,000. yeah. that's one expensive toilet. and, but there's always a but. before you drop a few large on a new toilet, this isn't your only luxury option. there are gold plated and swarovski crystal toilets all available online. and there are innovations available for the mere mortals among us. a british company called captive media has developed this. the user is presented width three targets and a large console. so far it offers just two game. a pub quiz and a skiing challenge but more are planned. if you're the competitive type, it allows to you immediately
post your score to twitter and a live leaderboard. so good luck. going for number one. we just couldn't resist. still "outfront," the "outfront" five. sentenced. >> you can't have probation. >> a chance to heal. >> god said, in order for him to foregive me of my sins, i had to forgive terry nichols. all this "outfront" in our second half. ttd# 1-800-345-2550
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we start the second half of our show with stories we care about where we focus on our own reporting and find the outfront five. number one, herman cain's new message to supporters. we had it in the past hour. the gop candidate said to donors that the affair claimed by georgia woman ginger white is quote, completely false. cain friend and volunteer campaign adviser alveda king came out front and said she does not believe any allegations of an affair. she said that cain is not, quote, a skirt chaser, and that his libido would be too low from his cancer recovery for him to have an affair. she said she believes he will run in iowa and not drop out. number two. one of the unidentified killers. dna tests identified william george bundy as one of eight remains exhumed this summer by investigators in an attempt to finally offer some closure through dna tests. there are now seven unidentified victims. the sheriff's office told
"outfront" that it is waiting for results of dna tests on five other families. gacy killed 33 young men and boys in the '70s, with most of the bodies found hidden in his chicago area home. number three. facebook settled a complaint by the federal trade commission that the site lied when it said user information would be private. now facebook agreed to 20 years of privacy audits and will you now warn users of privacy changes. the ftc tells "outfront" tonight it has the power to fine facebook $16,000 per violation per day. facebook could probably afford those fines. recent reports on a likely ipo put the company's value at $100 billion. number four, consumer confidence jumped to its highest level since july. great news for the economy. it easily outperformed expectations showing consumers think the situation is improving. despite the good news, analysts told "outfront" that consumer confidence could drop again based on the failure of the
super committee combined with the crisis in europe. speaking of the super committee, it lass been 116 days since america lost our top rating. what are we doing to get it back? last year's deal to reach the deal to reduce the deficit led to automatic spending cuts of $1.2 trillion. now those don't go into if he effect until early 2013. it is a so-called sequestration. a big word that is really all that stands between us and another credit downgrade. but republican senators john mccain and lindsey graham are already working on a plan to weasel out of the scheduled $600 billion in defense cuts. today, jim cli born, a member of the super committee, said he's open to rolling back those cuts too. president obama is on the record on this. >> already some in congress are trying to undue these automatic spending cuts. my message to them is simple. no. i will veto any effort to get
rid of those automatic spending cuts, domestic and defense spending. >> representative chris van hollen was a member of the super committee. he's "outfront" withous tonight. good to have you with us. we appreciate it. and let's cut straight to this issue of the sequestration, the defense cuts in particular. mccain and graham are open to rolling it back, jim clyburn are open to it. are you. >> >> i'm not. the president is absolutely right to threaten to veto of any effort to undue the sequestration because if you undo the $1.2 billion sequestration you immediately automatically increase the deficit by $1.2 trillion. that sends a terrible signal to people in the markets and other places around the world. and it would be bad for the economy. so i think that's a bad idea. what we should try and do is find a way to cut the deficit by $1.2 trillion in a reasonable way. not in an across the board way.
that's what the super committee unfortunately failed to do. >> is there any chance that there could be some sort of a breakthrough from this point, or it's done. you guys are disbanded. >> erin, i'm afraid it is done. and it's very difficult to see how this issue will get resolved before the election at this point. the super committee had these expedited powers, meaning if we came up with a recommendation, you would get an up or down vote. no dragging their feet in congress. without that, it makes it much more difficult. >> it is really a tragedy. let me ask you about something that happened today, sir, if i could. obviously, the pay roll tax and the extension of unemployment benefit insurance are up right now for discussion. the pay roll tax in particular, a lot of talk today. senate republicans saying okay, we want to extend it. that's $1,500 per family on average in tax savings if they do. they're not willing to put a surtax on millionaires to pay for it. obviously most americans are supportive of taxing millionaires more. but it is also true that it is
hard to imagine a tax, surtax becoming temporary. and it would end up becoming permanent. what is your view on this? >> well, my view first of all is we should definitely extend the pay roll tax holiday. senator kyle, one of the leading senators, the other day said the republicans did not want to extend it and it is important for people to understand that would be an immediate tax increase on every working american, beginning january 1, which obviously would be very bad for a very fragile economy. so we need to get that done. i think that the senate democratic proposal to ask the folks at the very top, millionaires, to pitch in, to try to pay for this is the right way to go. if there are other ideas for doing it, i'm certainly open to looking at them. but again, they've put a proposal on the table, the senate democrats. let's see an alternative. >> thank you so much. we'll look forward to having you back on again trying to solve
this problem. thank you, sir. >> we turn to the latest on the syracuse sex abuse case. syracuse police chief frank fowler admitted today that in 2002 police failed to follow up on tips. that syracuse university assistant basketball coach bernie fine had been accused of sexual abuse by a former team ball boy. fine was fired on sunday after the recording of a call between his wife laurie fine and a third victim. appeared to show that she was aware of the abuse. in an espn radio interview today, the syracuse university coach jim boeheim was asked about how he and the team have been weathering the scandal. >> the players have no distractions. the players are not a part of anything. they don't know anything about it. it's stuff that happened a long time ago. and they are focused on being a good basketball team and being good players. that's what their focus should be. >> also, just in, new york knicks player and syracuse alum carmelo anthony appeared at a brooklyn boys and girls club a short time ago and broke his
silence about the scandal. >> my heart goes out to the families. that's it. i have no comment about the situation. that's a sensitive situation, a sensitive topic right now that i don't even want to go near. >> all right. we're going to go near it now. let's go to the syracuse campus and go to ed lavendera. he's been covering the story for us. with the admission by the police chief today about his predecessor dropping the ball, getting the tip in 2002, almost ten years have gone by. they didn't follow up on it. they dropped the ball. this seems we have come down to a case of who knew what when, right? >> reporter: exactly. what police in syracuse are saying, we didn't have enough to open up a formal investigation. they said that all the contact they had with bobby davis, the first accuser in this case, initially came through a woman
that he knows who reached out to police and that it was only a short phone call that bobby davis had with investigators back in 2002. they say bobby davis never came in. and the police chief at the time, it went all the way to him, and they said they would now open up a formal investigation unless that accuser, bobby davis, came in and met with the detective or pointed detectives some other directions. what's interesting is that the police chief of the syracuse police in 2002, a man by the name of dennis duval. many people who follow syracuse basketball know him as sweet d. he was a prominent player for the syracuse basketball team back in the early '0s a few years before bernie fine got here to campus. >> wow, that's interesting. conrad murray got the max for involuntary man slot of michael jackson. how much time is he going to serve? [ sniffs ] i have a cold. [ sniffs ] i took dayquil
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we reach out to our sources around the world. tonight to pakistan, where the government says it's boycotting anent national conference about the future of afghanistan. this, after nato killed 24 pakistani soldiers. reza, how much pressure are pakistanis putting on their government do this boycott? >> reporter: erin, pakistan is under tremendous pressure domestically to take a tough stand after this incident. remember, to a lot of militant groups here and islamist groups, this group is viewed as a u.s. lackey. they're already viewed as the enemy because of their partnership with the u.s. if they're perceived as being soft after this incident, if they're perceived as being okay that u.s. forces killed 24 pakistani soldiers, they could lose a lot of public support. more importantly, it could be a rallying cry for these militant groups to start attacking the government. something they've done many times before. >> all right. thank you. now to britain where public sector workers are expected to strike tomorrow about pension reforms. richard quest is in london.
how is this strike going to affect london? >> reporter: erin, we're 2 million public sector workers going out on strike. it promises to be one of the biggest disputes for decades. hospitals will be hit, schools will be closed. britain's airports will be affected. there won't be so many passport offices to check passports and immigration. long, long delays are expected. flights will be canceled. and passengers are being told, if you don't have to travel to britain tomorrow, don't. erin? dr. murray abandoned his patient and is and remains dangerous. you can't have probation. >> four years in jail. that's what dr. conrad murray received for causing the death of michael jackson. the judge gave murray the maximum sentence for involuntary manslaughter after delivering a scathing statement to the court
saying murray had abandoned his patient. and is a disgrace to the medical profession. >> dr. murray created a set of circumstances and became involved in a cycle of horrible medicine. the practice of propofol for medicine madness. >> as murray was let out of the court, he stopped to blow a kiss to a person in the gallery and will be serving his sentence in the los angeles jail. we have a panel of experts to talk about this tonight. brian, a lifelong jackson family friend, paul, a former prosecutor and legal contributor, and charles conrad murray's civil attorney. let me start with you. the four-year sentence. the maximum possible. likely, he could be out in less time than that, two years. so walk me through how this happens. how he gets out and what happens then. >> it seems like a very light sentence for the death of a human being, four years. and under california law he gets
an automatic reduction to two years as a result of their sentencing laws. and because of prison overcrowding in california, he is going to serve that time in the los angeles jail as opposed to a more serious state prison. so compared to what he would be doing timewise in other states, i think it would be viewed as a relatively lenient sentence. >> how does the jackson family feel? you've known them 20 plus years. what do they think about the sentence? >> they approve of the sentence but the real factor that struck me as i talk to randy jackson was that this is empty. there is nothing but tears left to talk about here. it doesn't bring michael back. it doesn't solve the problem. there are other people who are involved in michael jackson's death ta have simply been ignored. the bottom line of this is that there is no feeling of justice and certainly no feeling of retribution. >> so many people who felt if not him, it would have been someone else. i want to play a clip from an interview that conrad murray did with the "today" show and then i'll get your reaction to that. paul and charles, here it is.
>> i don't feel guilty because i did not do anything wrong. i am very, very sorry for the loss of michael. michael is a personal friend. it is heartfelt. it has been painful. >> did that hurt him, paul? >> oh, it killed him. another example of criminal law not being reality tv. he made that statement to the "today" show before he went to trial. and the judge at sentencing today said you're not getting probation because you have not expressed remorse or sorrow for what you did. just play the video. he killed himself by doing that before trial. >> what do you think about that? that interview with the "today" show and how does that play into your situation now where the judge has said conrad murray has to pay the jackson estate $100 million in restitution. obviously he doesn't have the money. how do you defend this case when he's been convicted on the criminal side?
>> of course, the judge did not award $100 million in restitution. they'll have a hearing on that in january. of course, dr. murray is distraught. this was a terrible thing to have happened. he never wanted michael jackson to die. he never wanted to harm michael jackson. i think if there is a mistake that dr. murray made, it was taking on a difficult patient like michael jackson to begin with. this was a guy that was obviously drug addicted at the time. >> right. >> and that's the problem. >> and you're saying so the final $100 million in restitution will be decided in january, you think you've got room there? >> i think -- i think this judge, if he's smart, and acts like most lawyers would expect him to act would leave it up to a civil jury to determine those kind of damages. this is not something for restitution. i think mr. oxman would agree with that. >> would you, brian? >> i would say so. he have a civil case pending, charles and i talked about where this case goes, what happens to
it. the bottom line of today is that the prosecutor was not happy, the defense attorneys were not happy, and the jackson family, they don't feel that this is really going to bring any kind of change. this was a losing situation all the way around. >> brian, are they going to pursue any other criminal charges, say the concert promoter or anyone else. >> concert promotes are part of the civil lawsuit and they have to answer questions to what their responsibility was. i think the judge said something very important. this was money medicine, and the concert promoters were the ones who had the money at stake. >> paul, will he practice medicine again? >> no, i don't think he will, though i will tell you, theoretically it's possible. his license will be pulled automatically for conviction of a serious felony related to the practice of med isn't.
i think it's unlikely that it would be restored, but you can't rule it out, five, six, seven years down the line. >> thank you very much. >> that's just not true. that's not true at all. >> he can petition -- he can petition for restoration, he's admitted in three states, nevada, texas, california. they almost never get their license back, but they try to do it and they petition in states to do it so it is possible. >> thank you, all three of you, appreciate you're taking the time. obviously this is going to keep going. it's been more than 16 years since jani coverdale lost her grandchildren in the deadly oklahoma city bombings. a lot of people would have a lot of hate for the people who did the crime. not only did she forgive one important, she corresponds. [ marge ] psst. constipated?
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here's a story of almost hard to believe forgiveness. we know you remember the oklahoma city bombing. april 19, 1995. 168 people were killed, hundreds more injured. timothy mcveigh has been executed for that crime. is co-conspirator, terry nichols, is serving a life sentence. a lot of people are happy to see nickels rot in prison, but not our next guest. janney cover dale lost her two grandsons in the oklahoma city bombing, she had full custody of the boys and just dropped them
off in the building that morning. janney joins us from oklahoma city city. thank you for being with us. you've been writing letters back and forth with terry nichols for the past seven years. what made you reach out, write that first letter? >> well, i had questions and i wasn't gettingfully answers, and they had just finished having terry nichols trial here in oklahoma, so i got his address and i wrote him, and i said, since god has seen fit to spare your life again, now it's time for you to tell us what really happened. and i didn't expect terry to answer my letter because i heard so many things about him being a racist and a government hater, i really didn't expect him to answer my letter, and he did. so we started writing. >> and what did he say? >> and that was -- >> well, the first -- i can't remember exactly what was on the first letter, i know he talked about the bombing and he talked
about how sorry he was for what had happened and -- but you have to remember, this was during the time tim -- terry had not confessed to his family that he had participated in the bombing, he was still leading them to believe he had nothing to do with it. so we just talked about mostly nothing and eventually terry apologized to me. he asked for my forgiveness and he said, all of the pain and suffering i've caused you and your family, please forgive me. >> and in your heart, your heart of hearts, you truly feel that you have forgiven him? >> in my heart of hearts, i know i have forgiven him. >> how often do you write? and what else do you, for lack of a better word, talk about in your letters in. >> terry and i write each other at least once a month and we
talk about my adopted son, he asked about my adopted son because adrien plays football and he wants to know all about adrien and football. we talk about terry's oldest son, josh, who is in prison. we talk about terry's mother, who has been in and out of the hospital. she has cancer, and we talk about his other two children. >> and when you have been corresponding with terry, obviously in oklahoma city so many people were touched by this terrorist attack, do other family members of people who died that day understand what you're doing? are they angry with you? what's their reaction been to your decision to become friends in a sense with terry nichols? >> they don't say anything one way or the other. i don't try to push it off on them and if they -- they don't act like they are angry with me, and if they resent me writing