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tv   Anderson Cooper 360  CNN  August 25, 2012 1:00am-2:00am PDT

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first interview following his keynote speech and on thursday i'll talk to john mccain along with his wife. that's all next week. we start with breaking news. looking live at one of new york's most iconic landmarks. the scene of a deadly shooting. extraordinary surveillance video. it's very graphic. we're showing it to you because it clearly indicates the shooting suspect, jeffrey johnson, turning towards police officers and apparently pointing a gun at them. he is shot by the officers and falls to the ground.
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right now, the country of haiti is bearing the brunt of it. and there may be no worse place for bad weather to hit than haiti. more than 400,000 people still living in tents. literally got no safe place to go. sean penn's organization runs one of the largest tent cities there. we start in the weather center with chad myers bringing us the freshest new data. >> the latest now is isaac is 90 miles from port-au-prince and moving closer. in fact, moving right toward it. moving right toward other reporters that we have in port-au-prince too. so this is going to be a mess for the people here for the next few hours. probably by 4:00 in the morning, it moves far enough away. the winds taper off. right now, the winds are 65 miles per hour. gary tuchman is right there. he's about to experience that big band of convection that's going to come across the dominican republic and right into port-au-prince and also obviously weather along the
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south side of the storm too into port-au-prince and haiti and all of the dominican republic here. with the white color, that's 10 inches of rain or more. i don't know how you handle 10 inches of rain literally in about four hours. tropical storm watches are up for florida, the keys, up to parts in the north and southeast coast. bahamas have warnings. the forecast hasn't changed since 5:00. the track is still what it is. some of the models have changed. a couple of runs make more of a run at miami-dade. another one comes all the way out here and makes a run at louisiana. so you know what, we just don't know. it's just too far away to know if this is going to hit miami-dade. the keys or even make a run at tampa still. all of the areas here to here are still inside the cone. it's still too far away. the error, as it gets further and further away, the -- almost all of florida still under the gun. >> it's not a hurricane, as we thought it might be, at this
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hour. still, that amount of rain, in a small amount of time. we've seen mudslides in haiti in the past, a lot of problems with flooding, particularly for people in the tent camps. >> it is a very rugged country. we have big mountains between the dominican republic and haiti and mountains all the way through this little arm that stick, out here. the weather comes up here. it sticks on to these mountains. 8,000 feet high. and the water rushes straight downhill into these towns along the shore. it will also run straight down into port-au-prince. port-au-prince is a port town. and literally hills, mountains, all around that town. all that water that falls will eventually drain right into where those people are living on tents. anderson, the atmosphere here is very surreal right now. we're in one of the largest tent cities here. when we talked towel a short
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time ago, people were out and about, now they're in their tents for the evening. one of the things we were told earlier today we talked to the president of the haiti. he told us they were going to different camps across the city d across the area telling people to seek out shelter. they can't accommodate nearly all of the 400,000 people who are estimated to still be in shelters in the nation of haiti, that's 4% of the population. the president was hoping lots of women and children would go in the shelters and that strong men would stay behind in these camps and help people get to higher ground when the rains started to fall. when we talked to people here at this particular camp, they say almost everyone is staying behind. they feel more comfortable staying in their homes, their tents. because they don't want to leave.
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a lot of them don't think this will be so bad and they are afraid to leave and come back if someone else would take their place. this particular establishment, you can't see right now, there's a mountain. there's hundreds of tents on that mountain. when you have rains you have mud slides because of deforestation. you have that during regular storms. there hasn't been a tropical storm or a hurricane since the earthquake disaster since hundreds of thousands of people were living here in camps. it's a very touchy situation. anderson? >> i want to bring in sean penn along with other extraordinary people have done great work since the earthquake. his organization manages one of the country's largest camps for you set up jphro in the aftermath of the 2010 earthquake. you've helped thousands put their lives back together. there's still more than 400,000
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people living in temporary shelters or tents. you were there again recently. the kind of damage a storm like this could do, you have seen the impact of rain, explain the danger. >> well, of course, the first dangers are in flood and mudslide. you know, it's very rare particularly in port-au-prince to get a direct hit from the hurricane. we don't think the winds are going to be quite the issue. though they may be, you know, even a 35-mile-an-hour wind can be devastating in tent camps. the government and the international organizations have been able to reduce the camp levels from about 1.8 million to down i think below 400,000. that still leaves those 400,000 extremely vulnerable. the other issues are, you know, the potential spread of disease. the access to clean water. which is quite -- is actually a
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bigger issue in the remote regions. so the immediate aftermath is going to be a response all itself. whether or not there is the kind of dramatic hurricane damage that we hope doesn't happen. you'll have roads washed out. and, you know, this is a country, as you do know very well that we've been fighting to get -- there's so many fronts to get things moving forward on. and i think that the capacity of the government is still, you know, needful of an enormous amount of international support, both public and private. and i know that they've been working in the preparedness. but emergency preparation is something that's never been fully realized in any country that i'm aware of as an integrated aspect of sustainable development or the building of an infrastructure. and in haiti, being a country of
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only 9 million people, i think with continued support, we can get there and become a model for it. >> we've been to your camp over the years now several times. explain for folks what the structures are, the 400,000 people in various camps, are living in. what are the structures like? some of them are tents. some of them are temporary structures. >> yeah. st of the structures within the camps would be a combination of 2 x 2s holding up a square tent made from tarps. mostly bottomless. with just the dirt underneath. and drainage is a maintenance program to do that. so what's done within a camp like that is there are days of animations or communications, to the residents, starting with the most vulnerable, and going by
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the capacity and location of shelters to get to. contact numbers. the government, for example, puts out sms preparations. it's a country that despite its poverty has an enormous access to cell phones. most people have them. certainly in the cities. but the tents structures themselves are very flimsy. with every heavy rain, we have tent reconstruction to do. sometimes in the hundreds. our camp, which was originally at approximately 60,000, is down to somewhere between 16,000 and 18,000 people. still, a lot of people in there. but there's been, you know, once there have been very aggressive moves in the -- to get people out of camps. it's not a simple process. it's a costly process. we're still looking at donors that made pledges that are incomplete. >> that's one of the things.
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people have made donations. countries have made donations. have not actually delivered on those donations. you must get this question all the time from folks who say, look, they see the pictures of -- and here's some 400,000 people still in camps. in your camp, you've been able to reduce those numbers hugely. what is the biggest obstacle to effecting change right now in haiti? i know it's a huge question but in a nutshell. >> i can give you the two biggest obstacles in haiti. one is a land tenure issue. the ability for organizations such as ours or the government's own projects are compromised greatlby the challenges in courts for the ownership of various pieces of land. the return of people who were renters to properties where the landlords now will not give significant enough assurance that those beneficiaries will be the receivers of newly built structures and so on. so land tenure. the other part of it is the part
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that would come with the creation of ose structures as well as, we would hope with an agriculture sector, which is bs. two most significant things that need to be focused on, it's those things. with those things, such things as emergency preparedness, to education to health, all of those things would begin to build themselves. the haitians have a lot of their own initiative. but these basic things, the access to jobs, investment in haiti and haiti's own ability to reconstruct and reassign land perhaps is going to be mandatory aspect of any -- of any forward motion. >> sean penn, appreciate you being on. our storm coverage continues throughout the higher. follow me on twitter, @andersoncooper. police say his target was a former co-worker at a nearby store.
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that man is dead. so is the gunman. terrifying scene. it's all caught on video.
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i have a lifetime of experience. so i know how important that is. welcome back. the shooting outside new york's empire state building. we've just got envideo from the police department. it is graphic. we're just going to show you in limited amount of times. we think it could speak volumes about why the policeman shot the gunman dead. jeffrey johnson's the shooter. there he is with the gun. you see two police officers
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dividing. he just already killed a former coworker. he was walking away. he pulled the weapon on the officers following him and by standers scrambled away and that's when the police killed him. all this happened right outside the empire state building. it was rush hour. the area was packed. the video you just saw was part of the aftermath. there's other video that's too graphic but here's how all of this played out. >> this is the aftermath of a gunman opening fire in one of the most crowded streets in america. police say they fired at this man, identified as 58-year-old jeffrey johnson, after he shot at them. at this point in the video, he still appears to be alive. just minutes before johnson, dressed in a business suit and carrying a briefcase, navigated
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the crowds around the empire state building, found his target and pulled out a .45 caliber semiautomatic pistol. >> at 9:03 this morning in front of 10 west 33rd street a disgruntled former employee of a company at that address shot and killed a former co-worker, striking him three times. >> reporter: police say johnson had been laid off as his job as a woman's accessory designer last year. his victim, steve ercolino, was a vice president there. both men had filed prior complaints against one another. a co-worker of ercolino's was walking right next to him when they saw johnson lurking. she said, i thought, oh, my god, he's going to shoot him. steve screamed, jeff shot him and i just turned and ran. >> johnson fled with a .45 caliber handgun in a black bag he had under his arm. a construction worker who had
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followed johnson from west 33rd street alerted two uniformed police officers. >> rorter: chaos erupted. bystanders ran for cover. and police pursued johnson. >> as the two officers approached johnson, he pulled his .45 caliber semiautomatic pistol from his bag and fired on the officers who returned fire. >> reporter: police fired 14 rounds, some of which are believed to have hit eight innocent bystanders. >> i heard the gun shots and we looked towards the left and saw three or four people fall. the whole entire crosswalk emptied and people were running. >> reporter: johnson went down immediately. >> i pulled him over, cuffed him, kicked the gun away. >> reporter: after one man was killed, eight people wounded and hundreds of people ran for their lives, jeffrey johnson died in the shadow of the empire state building. joining us now is a former police officer. is now director of elite group limited. a private security phone. he's on the phone. so is cnn's poppy harlow who's been covering this story all day today. this video, we're seeing for the first time, the reason we're
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kind of showing it, is it does kind of show the difficulty police face when you have a shooter on the street with people all around and in the back of the shooter it's a very difficult situation to be in for officers. >> yeah, most definitely. unfortunately, this is the type of scenario where we have what is referred to as an active shooter. and there is no other option but to engage that individual. primarily because he's clearly drawn his weapon already. this .45 semiautomatic caliber pistol. he's discharging it. police have no alternative but to engage him. subsequently what we've experienced is what we've also referred to as collateral damage. that's where innocent people not completely aware of or necessarily involved in this activity are injured. >> in a situation like this, how much information did the officers actually have about what this person has already
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done? i mean, how much access to information do they have? >> well, you know, you would hope they have plenty of it. the problem is, the information that they receive, according to what was reported, was there was a construction worker who apparently witnessed this individual, johnson, shoot his former co-worker. they're working off that. the rest of it is just kind of spontaneous. they begin to approach him. at the same time, you're observing him draw a pistol from his bag clearly with his right hand and begin pointing it and discharging it in the direction of the law enforcement agent. so they unfortunately did not necessarily have all the information they needed. if they had, they probably would have come out of the car guns drawn. they were kind of piecing this together as they were going along. and fortunately, they responded to this quite appropriately. >> i think we've shown that video now so i don't want to keep showing it. it is obviously very graphic and disturbing.
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poppy harlow is joining us on the phone. do we know any more about the man who was shot? the victim in this? and also the shooter, about what their relationship was, what the beef was about? >> yeah, we know a lot more about the relationship and about the shooter. 58-year-old jeffrey johnson. who up till a year ago, anderson, worked at this hazan imports which makes women's jewelry and apparel. he was apparently laid off a year ago because of downsizing. and was, quote, disgruntled, according to the police. he worked with this victim, and they had this sort of spat, ongoing spat, about workplace harassment according to the nypd. it frankly led them to both issue legal paperwork against one another. so obviously, you know, there was a lot of tension between the two of them and johnson was there in front of the workplace which just happened to be right next to the empire state building. and then shot the victim in his torso and then in the head.
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what we do know from rebecca, the witness i spoke with early this morning, just about half an hour after this happened, she saw the shooter on the ground, laying on the ground, described him to me as a middle aged caucasian man, and she said she saw police tried to turn over the suspected shooter, tried to turn him over. when you see that amateur video also you showed in your piece, you can see he has shot the shooter and on the ground but he's still very much alive, hands moving, leans over before he's then shot again by police. so she did witness him on the ground just a few minutes after this occurred. the way she described the scene to me was there was blood all over the sidewalk, coffee cups left and right and people running frantically because, frankly, this is one of the busiest commercial intersections in new york. 4 million tourists go through
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every single year. >> especially that hour of the morning, 9:00 in the morning. appreciate the reporting. lou polombo as well. >> we're going to talk to an eyewitness as our breaking news coverage continues. we'll be right back. ♪ [ male announcer ] its lightweight construction makes it nimble... ♪ its road gripping performance makes it a cadillac. introducing the all-new cadillac xts. available with advanced haldex all-wheel drive. [ engine revving ] it's bringing the future forward.
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spike in the death toll as violence rages across syria. we'll have the latest ahead.
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welcome back. you've seen the video of the empire state building shooter. drawing his weapon on police and police shooting him dead right on one of the busiest streets in new york on fifth avenue. we're not going to show it to you again. we've shown it several times. it just seems gratuitous to show it more. some other video you saw in the last segment, the gunman and some of the wounded bystanders was taken by a young man who's visiting new york, terrifying scene to witness. he's a tourist who just happened to be there. i spoke to him earlier. so, alex, you saw the aftermath. take us through what happened, what you saw.
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>> i'd just come down from the empire state building. just across the street, just sorting out some tour details, and saw a whole load of people running, and they're pointing. there was a guy wearing a high vis jacket pointing out another guy in a suit. he ran towards the empire state building entrance. there's two police on duty there, outside the building. and pretty much just as they'd gone to the entrance, a bus had passed, so the shots were fired. there was probably -- it was quite rapid fire. i'm guessing around about 8 to 10 shots fired. and i saw people running. and screaming. and a few of them fell down in the streets. and i filmed the aftermath. about 30 seconds afterwards. i was right across the street. and yeah, just -- pretty
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horrific scenes. people running away and ducking. there was people lie on the floor. other people trying to help. people were taking cover. then i'd moved around into a more prime location to film. and zoomed in on the footage of police standing over the gunman. and zoomed out, close to the body. had been shot. he was still moving at that point. i think he was the guy who died on the scene. he was the perpetrator. >> the gunman was still moving initially when you saw him on the ground? >> yeah, that's right. there was two police, maybe three by then, running over. so there was two police standing over, over him, guns pointed directly at the guy on the floor, and he was -- he was rolling around but -- yeah, i -- i was -- then i zoomed around to see if anyone else was hurt and i could see other bodies on the floor. like people who had been hit further up the street. two or three on my camera.
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as we walked down, the police cleared the scene. there was another couple of people on the left side. so, yeah, that's what i saw. >> and, alex, you're just here as a tourist. how do you feel about all this? i mean, how are you doing? >> ah, yeah, you know, i heard one person say -- this happens globally but we only get shook up when it happens locally. but when you're right in front of something that happens that horrific, it's a bit nerve-racking, yeah. bit shaken. but uninjured. and i really feel for those who have been wounded or families who have been deeply affected by this. >> well, i'm glad you were unscathed. i appreciate you talking to us tonight. alex, thank you so much. >> thank you very much. >> alex who just happened to be there right when it all happened. let's check in with cnn's kyung lah.
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>> violence across syria has claimed at least 206 lives today. that word from opponents of the assad regime. fighting between government forces and rebel groups said to be heavy in the capital city damascus and in the city of aleppo. an american diplomatic vehicle was attacked by mexican federal police outside mexico city today. two u.s. embassy employees were wounded. mexican police officers are being questioned to find out why they opened fire on the american vehicle. and late today, a federal jury in california found samsung guilty of willful violation of some of apple's patents and recommended samsung pay apple more than $1 billion in damages. and the sesame street puppeteer who was the voice of the character count von count, the friendly vampire, has died. his name was jerry nelson. he was 78 years old. the cast and crew said he was a
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member of their family for more than 40 years. >> that's really sad years. that's incredible. >> yeah, familiar face to many of us who grew up watching him. >> i know, i've been on "sesame street," it's very sad. kyung, appreciate that. a lot of buzz around mitt romney today. and what he said about his birth certificate, was it a joke? we'll play it for you. you can see side for yourself. new polling as well on the presidential race. notably, abortion, a lot happening in the run to the convention. that's next. my wife the dentist allows only one mouthwash in our home.
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raw politics now. late word today that ann romney will speak on tuesday at the republican national convention in tampa.
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originally, she was scheduled to speak on monday, on opening night, which broadcast networks decided not to cover. the big story has to do with her husband. trying to explain remarks made in michigan sound like a birther joke at president obama's expense. first, as you'll hear, he says it's not at all that. listen to the remarks and decide for yourself. >> i love being home in this place where ann and i were raised. i was born at harper hospital. no one's ever asked to see my birth certificate. they know that this is the place that we were born and raised. >> now, the obama campaign immediately took umbrage. saying the decision to directly enlist himself in the birther movement should give pause. to any rational voter across america. as for governor romney, here's what he told cbs news and scott pellet. >> ann and i were both born in detroit.
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a little humor always goes a long way. it was great to be home, to the place where we grew up. the crowd loved it and got a good laugh. >> this was a swipe at the president and i wonder why you took it. >> not a swipe. i said throughout the campaign and before. i said there's no question about where he was born. this was fun about us and coming home and humor, you know, we got to have a little humor in a campaign as well. >> he's saying it's humor, has nothing to do with president obama. a lot to talk about tonight. i spoke about it earlier with john king and chief political analyst gloria borger who is putting finishing touches on a new documentary which airs sunday at 8:00. john, if romney's comment wasn't deliberate and he says it wasn't about president obama at all, how big a mistake was it? if it was deliberate and about president obama, which it seems pretty obvious it was, does this kind thing help him or hurt him? >> anderson, it doesn't help him. governor romney told cbs news
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tonight at it was just a joke because he was back home in his birth state of michigan. look, this race is so close right now that every day is pivotal. if you talk to the romney team, they tell you they have one huge imperative. for this week heading into the convention and then in the convention week. to change people's image of mitt romney. to make people like him more. meaning his favorability. to make people think he understands and wants to fight for the middle class. those are their top priorities. now, making a birther joke or whatever you want to call it might help with those strong anti-obama fervent conservatives but it doesn't help romney with where he needs to move now most, the middle, the undecideds. >> i only saw the video briefly. it seemed like more kind of cheering in the crowd, which does seem to make it seem like it was hitting on a birther note. you spent a lot of time with romney recently. what do you make of this? >> what i learned about mitt romney and you probably know this is he's a cautious politician. the problem is that the more cautious he seems to get, the
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more mistakes he makes. because he's not loose on the stump. he's very stiff. and he's always self-editing in an odd way. so when he doesn't and he kind of makes an off-hand comment, very often it's just not good, not funny, not appropriate. and i think this is the problem he's had. so the more he does something like this, makes a mistake, like the $10,000 bet to rick perry during the debates, the more he self-edit, then he's cautious, then he makes another mistake. >> the obama campaign has put out a statement saying mitt romney's linking himself to the most extremist elements. a notion that's been discounted. even though publicly he says he doesn't believe in the whole birther thing. it's our first poll of likely voters. what do the numbers show you?
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>> the numbers tell us, number one, anderson, there's a bit of an energy gap, intensity gap. president obama still has a healthy lead among all registered voters. if you look at just likely voters, the most likely voters, look at this here, choice for president among likely voters. president obama, 49%. governor romney, 47%. a statistical dead heat. does that matter much? a little bit of history here. the obama/mccain race was a dead heat heading into the conventions, we know in the end it wasn't close. george h.w. bush was losing to michael dukakis heading into the conventions and bush went on to win and win big. it does tell you the intensity among likely voters. a couple of things. in the poll, independent voters, those who define themselves, as independents, they will matter hugely. if you look, the moment, a statistical dead heat among independents.
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romney with the slight edge. so you see here, that's a slight advantage at the moment for romney as opposed to '08. one more quick one. suburban voters are critical in states like pennsylvania, ohio, many other states as well. if you look at the current numbers, dead heat. governor romney has to boost that number up a little bit. this is essentially where we were four years ago. if these numbers stay this close. you'd have to say that's an advantage for president obama. >> really interesting, the difference between registered voters and likely voters. we had new poll numbers on abortion today that suggested a significant shift particularly among the young in favor of some abortion rights. it's been obviously a tough couple of days for mitt romney on an issue he wasn't planning on spend much time on this year for the documentary that's airing sunday. you asked him about his change of mind on this issue. what did he say? >> well, his answer was when --
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that he's always been personally opposed to abortion. and when he was the governor, he says he was confrontedith the piece of legislation on stem cell research that in his view would have destroyed embryos and, therefore, he couldn't sign it. now, that's a rationale that you may choose to believe or not believe. clearly, lots democrats are willing to say we have them in our documentary, saying they believe it was politically motivated. that he knew they could never run for the presidency in the republican party. being any kind of pro-choice candidate. so he switched. he also made the point to me, why don't you complain about president obama who was against gay marriage and now he's for gay marriage. so we're all allowed to have our shifts of position on social issues. but i might say, anderson, this is what's caused the skepticism. not only among democrats and those women who are pro-choice but also among republicans, and we saw this throughout the primary process, because they're not quite sure about mitt romney.
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not only on the issue of abortion but also on the issue of health care reform which he also passed when he was governor of massachusetts. >> interesting stuff. look forward to the documentary on sunday. gloria's documentary, sunday, "romney revealed." sunday, 8:00 p.m. eastern time. right after the special convention preview at 7:00 p.m. up next, a look at the storm targeting haiti. >> announcer: meet tom, a proud dad whose online friends all "like" the photos he's posting. oscar likes tom's photos, but he loves the access to tom's personal information. oscar's an identity thief who used tom's personal info to buy new teeth and a new car, and stuck tom with the $57,000 bill. [tires squeal] now meet carl who works from the coffee shop and uses the free wi-fi. marie works from there too. she's an identity thief who used a small device to grab his wi-fi signal, then stole enough personal information to hijack
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our other breaking news tonight. tropical storm isaac bearing down on haiti. what's the situation in port-au-prince? >> the beginning of a very long night here in port au prince. we're standing now in the tent city. it was established shortly after the earthquake of january of 2010. it killed 300,000 people here in haiti. roughly 400,000 people still live in the tent cities.
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when we talked with you earlier in the evening, there were people standing around having a good time, very relaxed. they seemed to still be relaxed but right now they're all buttoned down inside their tents, inside their houses hoping for the best. you may be wondering why didn't they go to shelters. most of the people in the shelters are the people who had the t.v.s and the internet who knew it was a good thing to do. people decided they just with anned to stay and ride it out. anderson? >> we'll continue to follow closely. let's hope the storm misses them. let's check back in >> the man who killed 77 people in a shooting attack in norway july 2011 has been sentenced to 21 years in prison. a court judged anders breivik to be sane. >> back home notes left behind
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by tony scott did not reveal any reason why he apparently took his own life. that's the word from a los angeles county spokesman. he jumped from a bridge in california on sunday. a federal appeals court has tossed out a plan to make tobacco companies put graphic images on their products depicting the dangers of smoking. the appeals court said the law would violate free speech protections. and it's a new look for a fresco that was painted more than a century ago inside a spanish church. an elderly parishioner apparently took it upon herself to attempt an amateur restoration of the painting of jesus. that's the before on the left. her handiwork is -- she said the priest knew what she was doing. seven-time tour de france winner lance armstrong says he'll no longefight to clear his name of doping charges.
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tonight, two of lance armstrong's biggest sponsors are sticking by him. the u.s. anti-doping agency said today it is stripping armstrong of his tour de france titles. also barred him from being in sports subject to its doping rules. all this came just hours after armstrong announced he's giving up his battle to clear his name. he maintains he's never used performance enhancing drugs.
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the question is why has he give given up the fight. bill strickland, editor at large at bicycle magazine. has toured with him since 1992 when he started covering him. what do you make of lance armstrong's decision? >> think it was his best option. he -- i think he knew that -- whether he agrees with it or not, i think he knew the evidence and the testimony he would face in the arbitration process was just overwhelming. >> testimony from people who had been on his team who had doped along with him? >> team members, presumably other people connected to the team. there's a lot of speculation about who it was. through my own reporting, it's been reported elsewhere, there were definitely teammates -- >> and you think that testimony would have been pretty devastating? >> it would have been. there's -- you know, some of the names are no surprise.
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floyd landis, taylor hamilton. they've had some troubles with their integrity because they've lied about their doping initially. some of those people who gave testimony had either thus far never been implicated in doping and were also trusted members of his team. they weren't -- they were never sort of thrown off his team. >> you -- you've spent a lot of time with lance armstrong going back i think to '92 is when you first started to really kind of hang out with him, and you've been i mean kind of in different spots on the spectrum of believing he was doping, believing he was innocent. you came to believe, though, that he was doping. >> right. you know, through -- along -- through the long time i knew him, like i think everyone who looked at some of the innuendo and rumors which now turn out to be evidence. i went back and forth for a long time. last year, i had an interaction with someone from that era, you
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know, a character who played a role in this -- >> you can't say who? >> it was off the record. i can't say who. it convinced me personally without a doubt. i always felt he deserved at least a doubt. just cause he was such a figure of hope for so many people and such a great athlete. even when i -- seemed to be certain that he doped, i always wanted to extend that doubt to him. >> you have no doubt that he did dope? >> no doubt. >> he said, look, i passed 500 tests. i think the numbers vary. i've heard him say that. how do you account for that? >> that's an impressive number. he had a lot of tests. and he got through those tests. you know, what we've learned is that as anti-doping caught up, the cyclists got smarter and they learned how to avoid the tests using smaller doses of epo, which is the blood boosting drug.
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>> so they would use a smaller amount more regularly than just one large amount at a time? >> right. they learned how to cycle it. they would also use their own blood in conjunction with epo. there were all sorts of ways to kind of sneak through the markers that the tests set up. >> i guess what i can't wrap my mind around is if he is innocent, why would he then take this step? and say look, well, the system is unfair? it does seem to kind of indicate a level of guilt that he doesn't feel, i mean, is the system unfair? he says the trial would be completely unfair. >> right. i mean, the system certainly could be seen as unfair. you saw it his win rate is incredibly high. it's not the same as our criminal and our civil courts. it's a little different. it's a little harder for the athletes to win. if you believe lance, it's certainly easy to see the system is unfair.
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>> so what happens now? he, does he return the jerseys? is there a blank space by, you know, in the record books? because some of the other people, the other people came in second in some of these races also doped. >> right it gets really interesting from here. everyone who finished second behind him has either been convicted of doping or admitted or very strongly implicated. >> everyone? >> everyone. all of the seven podiums. >> what do you think happens to him now, though? does his charity get affected? does it change anything for him? >> well, i mean, it's fascinating. is he going to become shoeless joe who has become this beloved figure or is he going to become maybe marion jones or barry bonds who are looked at with less heart. d