Skip to main content

tv   Piers Morgan Tonight  CNN  December 21, 2012 9:00pm-10:00pm PST

9:00 pm
good evening. tonight, guns in america, the number one issue in america a week after the mass shooting in sandy hook. the nra breaks its silence.
9:01 pm
president obama and communities all over america paused in a moment of silence. president obama is calling for a ban on assault weapons. today, the nra offered a rather different solution. publicly breaking the silence. the silence for the first time since the massacre, the nra proposed a sweeping plan to have armed guards at every school in the nation. >> the truth is our society is populated by an unknown number of genuine monsters. people that are so deranged, so evil, so possessed by voices and driven by demons that no sane person can ever possibly comprehend them. they walk among us every single day. and does anybody really believe that the next adam lanza isn't
9:02 pm
planning his attack on a school? since when did a gun automatically become a bad word? a gun in the hands of a secret service agent protecting our president isn't a bad word. a gun in the hands of a soldier protecting the united states of america isn't a bad word. and when you hear your glass breaking at 3:00 a.m. and you call 911, you won't be able to pray hard enough for a gun in the hands of a good guy to get there fast enough to protect you. so why is the idea of a gun good when it's used to protect the president of our country or our police but bad when it's used to protect our children in our schools?
9:03 pm
>> to be clear, this wasn't a press conference. it was a statement. no questions were taken. that doesn't mean there weren't any interruptions. >> stop killing our children. it's the nra and assault weapons that are killing our children. >> protesters accused the nra of having blood on its hands. i'll be speaking to one of those in a moment. wayne lapierre paused and then continued and blamed the violence on video games, on the media, on just about everything but guns. they said the news media is consumed with hate for the nra, but the proposal to have armed guards in schools in america is stirring the most debate. jeffrey, let me lay my cards on the table off the top here. i watched that press conference or that statement with mounting horror and anger, but i was also aware that a lot of people in america would have watched it and said he's right.
9:04 pm
>> yeah, people will say that the answer to every escalating sort of violent act in america is the ability to use more violence to counter that. and it never stops. so you're going to give a security guard a regular gun against someone who has an assault weapon. so when the assault weapon overpowers the regular gun, you give the security guard in the school an assault weapon, where does this end? it doesn't end. that was the most irresponsible and i think hurtful response to an american tragedy that i have heard. and he should be ashamed of himself to come and tell the american people i'm not going to do anything reasonable, not one thing. i don't care if it's 100 kids killed, i would have said the exact same thing. let's get more people with guns and surround our kids. we have to as a nation examine our souls and say how did we come to this? >> it was really, i found, horrifying, because i watched the whole thing. at the end, i thought two things
9:05 pm
are going to happen here. one, the nra is going to get a lot of people joining it as a result of this. secondly, gun sales, assault weapons, are going to rocket because of this. this was a promotional tool, this statement, for encouraging more americans to go and arm themselves. and it really cut to what i think the nra and other gun lobbyists in america do. they play to fear. they play to people's fear. and they commercialize it and they sell more weapons on the back of that. that is why it's shameful. >> it is shameful because they can give you not one logical reason that an american citizen needs an assault weapon. not one. they aren't good for hunting. they serve no purpose. in the hands of someone really mentally ill, they can do damage that is -- it's inconceivable to us. and we've got to put an end to that. this is one of those issues, piers, where i think the american people have to say, some people you just sort of
9:06 pm
can't have a rational discussion with. we have to take this matter into our own hands and protect our children. i think that's what our country has to do, i think the president, the speaker, i think senator reid, folks have to come together and say let's put children first, and let's not deal with people who are just, i think, irresponsible in their responses to a tragedy in this country. >> we have covered this ever night since the sandy hook massacre and we did the same after aurora and others and there's been this escalation in the scale of these atrocities and i have been getting angry this week at some of the gun rights people who have come on the show, very angry, and i have been accused of being rude and all the rest of it. if you can't get angry over the cold-blooded murder of 20 school children age 6 and 7 years old, when do you get angry? who do americans say enough, this is not going to continue? by the way, what he didn't mention today, wayne lapierre,
9:07 pm
he didn't mention anything about assault weapons other than to try to play down what they are. he didn't mention high-capacity magazines. he didn't explain why the killer in aurora needed 100 bullets in a magazine. what is the purchase of the mass slaughter. nor did he mention background checks. 40% of all gun trades, there's no background check. had he done any of those things, someone would have said, he's making some good effort. there was nothing. >> that's right. a guy like me who thinks there's just too many handguns in america and we need to do something about it, they would consider me extreme, right? but this was a moment for a rational sort of compromise that says to america, okay, guys, maybe this is too far. maybe you can't allow a person to come in with 100 bullets and slaughter people, our children. maybe we should stop that. the fact that they did not make even the most minor compromise or to give our president and our congress the confidence to say
9:08 pm
that this is extreme, or this kind of extremism will destroy america. we're already a country awash in handguns. everywhere you go, our citizens are being slaughters. when do folks stand up and have the courage to say to the nra, you are wrong, we're not tolerating this anymore? real reasonable gun legislation is what america has to do. >> i would be curious how many members of the nra actually agreed with what wayne lapierre said today. i can't believe that rational americans do not see the need after three mass shootings in the last few months that involved an ar-15 assault weapon. he said they claim these firearms used by the military are the most powerful rifle calibers, all factually untrue. these are fine, these weapons. the ar-15, when it's been modified by someone who knows
9:09 pm
what they're doing, can fire 4 to 6 bullets a second and 100 bullets in one minute. they're killing machines. they are machine guns. >> look, we're allowing people to have higher sort of firepower than our police. you do not see police officers walking around with weapons like this because these weapons are used to fight in wars with soldiers. there's no excuse for this, piers. there's no rational explanation for allowing this to go on. the nra has bullied our congress. let's be honest. they have bullied them with money, threatened to put them out of office, and we have people in congress who so want to cling to their office that they're prepared to sacrifice american children, and it's about time someone called them out on it and said, stop it, guys. these are our kids. we have to fight for them. if it means we get out of office, we get out of office, but we save the country. we're going over a moral cliff. you can't just morally justify the slaughter of american
9:10 pm
children, and by the way, 350 kids a week are shot or murdered in this country of ours, that's every week. that's 14 classrooms and no one does anything about it. it's like that's normal in america. that's an outrage. >> i couldn't agree more. jeffrey, thank you so much for coming in. >> thank you. >> good to see you. the nra's statement today was interrupted by two protesters. one was nadea. welcome to you. it was quite a moment when you managed to infiltrate this nra statement, as it was. what struck me most ironic, of course, there he is talking about security, and you were able to get your way into his own little press event and make your protest known. >> well, that's right, piers, but i went in prepared with a banner, but i wasn't necessarily going to pull it out because i naively thought that the nra was going to make some concessions. i thought they were going to say something like, yes, we
9:11 pm
understand that something needs to be done and that's why we're supporting a ban on assault weapons or something they were going to give us as the american people. and my jaw dropped when wayne lapierre started out swinging, saying that we need to put more guns on our streets. so i was as shocked as i think a lot of the reporters in the room at what the nra had to say. >> it was an extraordinary event. i mean, in a way, i was thinking to myself that it was so -- it was so uncompromising. it was so lacking in any kind of compassion or anything, really, that i found it could backfire pretty badly on the nra. that's why i'm curious how many of its membership actually go along with the sentiments he expressed. what would you think? >> i don't know. so many of us are parents. i can't imagine that parents want their kids to see armed security guards on their way to school every day. and these security guards would
9:12 pm
probably be private contractors with firms that are taking people that have been in combat overseas, have ptsd, could also snap. the more weapons around, the more unprotected i think our children are. so i hope it backfires. and i hope people saw that lack of compassion that you mentioned. >> thank you very much for joining me today. it was an extraordinary moment to watch your protest. and it went around the world. thank you for joining me. >> thank you for having me on. next, debating the nra's plan with people from both sides. and cory booker and others join me for my debate on guns in america. i always wait until the last minute.
9:13 pm
can i still ship a gift in time for christmas? yeah, sure you can. great. where's your gift? uh... whew. [ male announcer ] break from the holiday stress. ship fedex express by december 22nd for christmas delivery.
9:14 pm
trust duracell to power their donated toys? duralock power preserve. it locks in power for up to 10 years in storage. guaranteed. duracell with duralock. trusted everywhere. and this is the nokia lumia 920 from at&t. it's got live tiles so all my stuff's always right there in real-time. it's like the ultimate personal assistant. but i'm me, and me needs handlers. so i hired todd to handle it for me. todd, gimme that hollywood news! what's happening on twitter? you're trending! yes! you can't have a todd, but you can have your own personal assistant. i guess you could call it todd. [ male announcer ] the new nokia lumia 920 with live tiles that deliver what you want in real time. only from at&t. rethink possible. that deliver what you want in real time. there's the sign to the bullpen. here he comes.
9:15 pm
you wouldn't want your doctor doing your job, the pitch! whoa! so why are you doing his? only your doctor can determine if your persistent heartburn is actually something more serious like acid reflux disease. over time, stomach acid can damage the lining of your esophagus. for many, prescription nexium not only provides 24-hour heartburn relief, but can also help heal acid-related erosions in the lining of your esophagus. there is risk of bone fracture and low magnesium levels. side effects may include headache, abdominal pain and diarrhea. call your doctor right away if you have persistent diarrhea. other serious stomach conditions may exist. don't take nexium if you take clopidogrel. let your doctor do his job. and you do yours. ask if nexium is right for you. if you can't afford your medication, astrazeneca may be able to help. there exists in this country sadly a callous, corrupt, and corrupting shadow industry that
9:16 pm
sells and stows violence against its own people. through vicious, violent video games, with names like "bullet storm" "grand theft auto" "mortal combat" and "splatter house" and here's one. it's called "kindergarten killers." >> the nra blaming video games for creating a culture of violence in america. are video games really to blame, though? we'll get to that in a moment. first, republican strategist and gun owner hogan gidley. what was your reaction when you -- >> i think the nra missed a huge opportunity. to come out and say we want to be on the forefront of having this discussion, we definitely need to talk about gups and we also need to talk about mental health issues, talk about
9:17 pm
parental environment, talk about a cultural decline. we are as the nra for responsible gun ownership. this was clearly not responsible. we need to have that conversation and be out in front on this. instead, they missed an opportunity blaming other people and really kind of drawing a line in the sand that didn't need to be drawn at this point. >> you're a gun owner. are you a member of the nra yourself? >> i am not. i support the nra but i'm not a member, no, sir. >> the relationship between an american and his or her gun is historic and something that creates great passion. what is your view about the specific campaign which i have been pursuing and the president is pursuing and others are pursuing which is not about banning guns, it's about banning assault weapons, getting the kind of weapons which can massacre school classrooms, these military style machines, getting those off the streets? >> right, when you have such a
9:18 pm
tragedy like we did, it was such a dark day for this nation. i think those types of conversations, talking about assault weapon bans and things like that, need to be on the table. the fact of the matter is if i went to the doctor and he said, you have cancer, i say how do i get rid of it, and he said take these two aspirin, and i said is this going to get rid of my cancer, and he said no, but it will make you feel better, we can't pass legislation to make us feel better. we have to protect our citizenry, our children. the nra missed the boat on this. >> you think assault weapons should be banned or not? >> that's a good question. and the thing is, i'm not militant on it one way or the other. i'm willing to have the conversation. you obviously think there should be. give me the statistics. let's have the conversation and i'm willing to come to the table and talk. if i'm not on the table i'm on the menu. >> let me give you some statistics. the particular assault weapon that massacred the children at the sandy hook school, was the same one used in aurora in the
9:19 pm
theater. it's an a rrk-15, a military-style machine gun. those who say it isn't a machine gun have never seen it be modified and how it works. you can check it on utop tube. these things when they're modified can fire 4 to 6 bullets a second or 100 bullets in a minute. they can wipe out 100 people in less than a minute. those are some statistics for you. what i never hear back from anyone who defends them is what other purpose can they possibly have than mass slaughter? >> that's the thing. if i own one of those weapons and i had clips of 100 or clips of 30, kids wouldn't be in danger. the irresponsible people with them, obviously, it makes the conversation different. now we're talking about being able to mow down a number of people in a matter of seconds. that's a serious, serious problem in the hands of somebody who has a mental instability or is angry or should have no business owning a gun at all. those are the kinds of things
9:20 pm
i'm willing to talk to anybody about, and those are the things we need to put on the table if we want to move forward. >> thank you very much. i thank you. god bless. >> we're going to bring in jeffrey toobin and andre. welcome to you both. we'll start with you jeffrey. i want to play a little footage. this is an ar-15. we found it on youtube. a cnn colleague found it. the point is you can see the kind of weapon it is, particularly when they get modified. they are military assault weapons. these are behaving like machine guns. the nra and other gun rights lobbyists would have us believe thee are single-shot semiautomatic relatively -- relatively harmless kind of hunting rifles, but that footage, which by the way, there are numerous examples on the internet, show you what they really are when they're in the wrong hands. >> not only that. as we saw in the news conference
9:21 pm
by wayne lapierre today. they don't think banning any sorts of guns are the problem. they think there are monsters out there, as he said, but it's okay for the monsters to buy weapons as long as the good guys have weapons, too. that's the solution to their problem. so however many bullets you can fire at once, machine gun, submachine gun. that's all fine as long as the good guys have guns, we're saying. >> the more guns america has, the more gun murders occur. in japan where they have almost zero guns, they have almost zero gun murders. and the parallels are there all around the world. i don't get why the nra can get away with statements like this, and there isn't just a huge outcry. >> we'll see. i think things have changed somewhat. they remain a very powerful group. they're speaking to a constituency that really believes in their message, and historically, at least, that you cross the nra at your peril as a
9:22 pm
politician. they have a great deal of money. they have a great deal of influence. politicians care deeply about getting a high rating from the nra. you know, it could be that newtown marks a turning point, but it also could be that it doesn't and that's why you have not seen a huge rush of politicians to embrace gun control in the past week. >> let me understand, michael steele called the nra statement very haunting and very disturbing. he's actually an nra supporting. michael blook brg called it beyond believe that following the newtown tragedy, the national rifle association wants to arm more americans. i want to turn to you. what some people thought was a point worth making is a violent association of video games to a disturbed mind and this leading to some kind of desire to do what they see in the games for real. you have this website which is very popular with gamers.
9:23 pm
what is your view about that? >> i don't see how video games can contribute to violence in that manner. especially when most video games don't emulate real life. what they emulate is soft compared to what happens in the real world. today, hearing him speak about what he said, i thought it was just a really horrible joke. because it's ridiculous. >> i mean, i have seen some video games which are pretty violent, and i could imagine if you were disturbed and you were a loner like this misfit character adam lanza in your underground room and that's all you do all day. i spoke to my 12-year-old son, he plays a lot of games. he said a lot of his friends play happily, some he sees get upset. they have their headphones all the time, they play them far too much, and he said he sees them get aggressive. i thought that was an interesting insight from a young guy who enjoys his games and has no problems, that he could see a mentality, people getting angry and aggressive.
9:24 pm
>> i could see where people might get aggressive as far as playing. you get into that mode, but that's almost with any sport, anything you get into. >> right. >> people get into it, it's competition. you have the guy on the other side coming at you. you're going at him. at the end of the day, it's all said in fun. you can get up, walk away. it's over. what they're trying to imply, they're saying you get up, walk away, and then you go outside and kill people. that's not what gaming does. >> the real issue, probably, jeffrey, the mental health issue and guns. basically,hose two things have got to be tackled head on. >> there is a legitimate question to be asked about what effect these games have on people. they're going to be studied. i think that's a legitimate subject to study. but we know that a bushmaster rifle killed these kids. we know that for sure. we don't know if video games had anything to do with it.
9:25 pm
why do you start with some mysterious hypothetical causation rather than the actual cause of these children's death? i think that's -- if you're going to choose between those two, a certain cause and possible cause, you start with the certain cause. coming up next, guns in america. cory booker, tom ridge, and others who will talk about the most important issue facing america today. coming up next. [ male announcer ] alka-seltzer plus presents the cold truth.
9:26 pm
i have a cold, and i took nyquil, but i'm still "stubbed" up. [ male announcer ] truth is, nyquil doesn't unstuff your nose. what? [ male announcer ] it doesn't have a decongestant. no way. [ male announcer ] sorry. alka-seltzer plus fights your worst cold symptoms plus has a fast acting decongestant to relieve your stuffy nose.
9:27 pm
[ sighs ] thanks! [ male announcer ] you're welcome. that's the cold truth! [ male announcer ] alka-seltzer plus. ♪ oh what a relief it is! ♪ [ male announcer ] to learn more about the cold truth and save $1 visit alka-seltzer on facebook. [ male announcer ] to learn more about the cold truth santho, ho, ho!anta! santa! want to see some magic? watch this! merry chr... (crash) ow! i landed on my keys. did you get that? oh yeah. that was amazing. here you go. that was a fun trick! see? santa's okay. walk it off santa. share videos instantly with s beam. on the galaxy siii and note ii. for a limited time get two flip covers for the price of one. exclusively at verizon. let's see if walmart's low prices can make this the best christmas ever! ya ready? diamond hoop earrings -- 68 bucks! what? she's gonna think you shopped for weeks. man -- you're saving my life! see for yourself! shop walmart's low prices for all your last minute christmas gifts. you'll see the difference.
9:28 pm
9:29 pm
the nra says armed guards will keep kids in school safe. what do you think? it's the focus of a special we'll have this week. cory booker, christiane amanpour, and others will join us. it got heated. here is our special, "guns in america." cory booker, let's start with you. it just is heartbreaking. it's agonizing. you can't say anything to make it any better. what is the answer? >> first of all, this is not as rare as people might think. there is a virginia tech, so to speak, 30 to 34 americans die every day due to gun violence.
9:30 pm
what gets me most frustrated, i guess, is we all agree in america. in fact, if you look at gun owners, i work with a coalition of mayors called the coalition against illegal guns. a republican pollster polls gun owners and nra members and you get from 70% to 90% depending on the commonsense issues we can do to make our country safer. let me give you one example. roughly 40% of guns sold in america are sold in what is called a secondary market, in other words, private sales where there's no federal registration at all. where people with criminal backgrounds -- you could get someone on the terrorist no-fly list who can't get on a plane, but they can go to many of these secondary markets and buy weapons. overwhelmingly, 84% of gun owners in america, 82% of gu members in america, 72% of nra members, believe that should change. changing that alone gives a difference. i'll give you an example how. 1 out of 2 women murdered with a gun are murdered by an intimate,
9:31 pm
someone they know well. in states that have eliminated the secondary market and don't allow people to trade in private gun sales or the private market, that number dropped by 40% because those people with the intention to do wrong can't buy guns in america. so changing the laws make people face up. >> in the end, it's about the guns because without the guns you don't have the shooting. this particular weapon, the ar-15 assault weapon has been used in the last three mass shootings, in aurora, in the shopping mall, and now in the elementary school. you have been in war zones all over the world. it's near to an m-16 machine gun, a rifle, as you can get, isn't it? >> it is. i can visualize the state of affairs in the classrooms because i have seen that in somalia, what is going on in syria right now, and it is about
9:32 pm
those particular weapons. i look out and realize that two years ago, i conducted a town hall just like this in the aftermath of the shooting of congresswoman gabrielle giffords and the killing of those people around her in tucson, some of the same people who were there are here today. victims, families, all people crying out for at least at the very least, a dialogue, a sensible, rational conversation, a national discussion where we're not afraid to call it like it is. and that means to bring everybody to the table. that also means, piers, and i think everybody here would probably agree, it means cutting down the strawmen that are raised up when people get freaked out about this conversation. this is not about taking people's guns away. it's not taking the hunters' guns. not about the sporting guns. not about the private protection gun. it is about sensible gun laws. semiautomatic weapons, the kinds
9:33 pm
of things that make killing industrial strength, and i'll tell you, there is cause and effect. there are other countries which have faced similar such massacres and they have taken procedures, and it's worked. our country, england, in scotland, you know, in 1996, children the same age as the children at sandy hook, 16 6-year-olds and 7-year-olds killed. >> a national handgun ban and incredibly effective. australia the same thing. john, your answer is more guns makes america safe even though there are statistics. you have 300 million in circulation and you have the worst gun murder rate of any of the wealthy countries of the world by a massive multiple. how do you justify the claim more guns make more safe people in america? i don't get it. >> everyplace that guns have been banned, murder rates have gone up. you cannot point to one place, whether it's chicago or whether it's d.c. or whether it's been england or whether it's jamaica
9:34 pm
or ireland. >> that's a complete lie. >> it is not. >> a complete lie. the gun murder rate in britain is 35 a year on average. you need to stop repeating a blatant lie about what happens in other countries. 35 murders a year. you're not going to get away with it. you lied about it the other day. 35 gun murders a year in britain. 11,000 to 12,000 in america. stop lying. >> no, you don't even understand simple math. can i -- >> you're telling americans to buy weapons to defend themselves. >> what i say is there's lots of reasons why murder rates differ across countries. when a ban is put on, it may be lower than someplace else, but it went up. >> what does it say about america that even after 20 young children between 6 and 7 years old are murdered with these assault weapons, you still have people here who say we cannot take them off the streets?
9:35 pm
there's nothing we can do, and actually they know when they fill people with fear, in the last five days, sales of these particular ar-15s have rocketed in america. as americans race to defend themselves and make themselves safer. what is going to change this culture? >> this is what is going to change it. first of all, there are three things that are been talked about. one is the easy availability of literally weapons of mass destruction. that's all you can call them, assault weapons. the second is mental health, and the third, which you're asking about, is a culture of violence. because the same gun laws are there in canada right now and switzerland, per capita, and yet you don't have the same incidents. we have a culture which has somehow accepted the psychosis of our collective conscience as normal. we call it normal because it happens every two months. >> anyone who says they want this particular assault weapon,
9:36 pm
this murder weapon, this military grade rifle, anyone who says that want that -- >> i would question their sanity. >> i have been accused of being unpatriotic to america, anti-american. i have been accused of not understanding an american's right to bear arms under the second amendment. this has nothing to do with it. i don't mind americans having a firearm at home to defend themselves. this is a weapon of mass slaughter. >> it takes 20 minutes to load one and half the time you miss. the second amendment didn't take into account assault weapons. the fact that you can buy them through the secondary market or load up on ammunition through the internet. so we're living in a culture that accepts this as normal. what we need, forget right now trying to prove him wrong because he's only going to get more belligerent. what we need to ask ourselves is what is the solution? the solution is this kind of town hall meeting across the
9:37 pm
country and then people taking action and going to their legislators and saying we want these laws changed. otherwise it's not going to happen. >> i'll come to you after the break. remember, you can call and send a question on twitter. we're getting a huge reaction, and not everyone agrees with what i believe on this, but many do, too. we'll talk after the break. [ female announcer ] research suggests cell health plays a key role throughout our lives.
9:38 pm
one a day women's 50+ is a complete multivitamin designed for women's health concerns as we age. it has 7 antioxidants to support cell health. one a day 50+. it has 7 antioxidants to support cell health. with two times the points on dining in restaurants,?
9:39 pm
you may find yourself asking why not, a lot. chase sapphire preferred. there's more to enjoy. schwab bank was built with all the value and convenience tdd#: 1-800-345-2550 investors want. tdd#: 1-800-345-2550 like no atm fees, worldwide. tdd#: 1-800-345-2550 and no nuisance fees. tdd#: 1-800-345-2550 plus deposit checks with mobile deposit. tdd#: 1-800-345-2550 and manage your cash and investments tdd#: 1-800-345-2550 with schwab's mobile app. tdd#: 1-800-345-2550 no wonder schwab bank has grown to over 70 billion in assets. tdd#: 1-800-345-2550 so if you're looking for a bank that's in your corner, tdd#: 1-800-345-2550 not just on the corner... tdd#: 1-800-345-2550 call, click or visit to start banking with schwab bank today. tdd#: 1-800-345-2550
9:40 pm
9:41 pm
we're going to do something, that's obvious. and people want to get stuff before a ban on whatever comes in. probably magazines. people get scared. >> in the wake of the newtown tragedy, gun sales are soaring across america, especially for weapons like the ar-15 that was used. back to my studio guests. people get driven to believe that they have to protect themselves, that that's why they have to be armed. every time one of these shootings happens, more and more americans buy more guns and it sort of proliferates. it says people should be trained for these, right? >> of course.
9:42 pm
what you're making me think about that i have not heard people talking about are cit police officers. crisis intervention team police officers who are trained to deal with mental illness. the problem is not mental illness. president obama, tom ridge talked about our mental health care system failing us. and that's the problem. it's not the mentally ill people who are dangerous. it's the system that's leaving them to fall through the cracks, not get into treatment, not evaluate and build relationships with them so we can keep them -- >> let me ask you one thing. you were very spirited defending an american's right to own weapons. i can't understand. you're a smart guy, i watch you most mornings talking about all sorts of stuff. why does any american need an ar-15? it's a military rifle? >> i don't think that the conversation, when it comes to me, is about the burden upon me
9:43 pm
to say why i might need the weapon. what i need you to do is how you have made the country safer by proposing to ban that weapon. i understand the sense that we have at moments like this that we must do something. we have to solve this problem. but what i would suggest is make sure you're actually going to accomplish that. here is what i would suggest to you. your personal crusade, piers, to ban assault rifles, i'm not confident you'll solve anything. adam lanza's gun wouldn't have been banned under the federal ban. >> i find that ridiculous. >> what i would say is the federal ban we had for ten years didn't drop national violence. finally -- >> it did, though. it did, i mean, demonstrably, it did. >> this is the most important point. a guy like adam lanza, he premeditates these things, he plans it, and he's a very determined criminal to do something horrific.
9:44 pm
>> so make it difficult for him to get the tools. >> what do you propose -- >> you have to try. i have been in this country for the last six, seven years watching shooting massacre after shooting massacre. when does the slaughter stop? >> you need to prove your case. >> what does an assault gun do for recreation? what does it do for hunting? what does it do for self-defense? >> it's a semiautomatic gun that looks like a military weapon. if you want to ban all semiautomatic guns, fine, let's talk about that. >> what's the purpose of an ar-15? >> it's like a hunting rifle that is cosmetically on the outside looks like a military weapon. >> how many bullets can it fire a second? how many bullets can it fire a second? tifirst ques >> you will not downgrade what
9:45 pm
these weapons do. how many -- answer the simple question. >> the point of the semiautomatic -- >> how many bullets does it fire in a second? used in the last three mass shootings. answer the question. are you going to answer or not? >> i'll answer your first question, and then i'll answer your second question. the reason you have a semiautomatic weapon is because, take the alternative. if i were to have a bolt-action rifle where i have to manually load it, and i have two criminals coming at me. i can fire one bullet and then it's going to take me a second to load it again. what happens if i fire and it misses? >> how many does it fire a second? can you answer the question or not? >> the point is you will lose lives. the police can't be there all the time. if you want them to have to fire a bolt-action rifle -- >> are you going to answer my question? it's a very simple question.
9:46 pm
how many bullets can the ar-15 fire in one second? do you know? >> i think your estimate is high. >> it's not. i have spoken to many experts today. it can fire 4 to 6 bullets a second. it can fire 100 in a minute. that could wipe out, as we saw, 20 children in a matter of seconds. it's not ten minutes. >> it's a characteristic of all semiautomatic guns. >> you want people to think they're harmless old hunting rifles. you won't answer those questions. >> i have already said -- >> you have to answer the questions truthfully to an american audience. when we come back, survivors of gun violence tell me about the terrible, terrible impact on their lives and the people that were taken from them. ♪ i'll be home for christmas,
9:47 pm
♪ you can count on me,
9:48 pm
♪ i'll be home for christmas, ♪ if only in my dreams. five days later, i had a massive heart attack. bayer aspirin was the first thing the emts gave me. now, i'm on a bayer aspirin regimen. [ male announcer ] be sure to talk to your doctor before you begin an aspirin regimen. [ woman ] learn from my story. nature valley granola thins pack the big taste of granola and dark chocolate into one perfect square, under 100 calories. nature valley granola thins. it's hard to see opportunity in today's challenging environment. unless you have the right perspective.
9:49 pm
bny mellon wealth management has the vision and experience to look beyond the obvious. we'll uncover opportunities, find hidden risk, and make success a reality. bny mellon wealth management
9:50 pm
> sufficient survivors of the mass shooting, i find this almost impossible to stay calm about because i keep thinking of these kids in sandy hook and the latest families devastated and i just interviewed one of the fathers and it makes me so angry and i don't understand why there
9:51 pm
isn't unanimity about getting rid of these things. what is the middle ground if you were to trying to debate this in a more rational way than i. >> i understand your passion having stood on too many street corners and bodies but i want to pull it back to pragmatic where we can move the country forward and make it safer. the overwhelming majority are done because criminals and people are not mentally qualified to buy guns can get guns to improve a system where week do background checks is key. >> and the one more mental health point i want to make, 19 states where there is less than 100 people registered in the system as mentally uncapable because states aren't turning over the information. if we just shared information we can do a better job.
9:52 pm
>> let me go to armadeep. you heard him and he is veriy mow active and i dent mean to be disrespectful, i just feel strongly. what is your reaction? you are a gun owner >> i have a gun. i was in army rotc and worked with the m-16 and everything and those guns aren't meant for protection. they're meant for annihilation. to deter somebody, it is easy. you can deter somebody with a knife like my father did. he wrestled somebody with a butter knife and he immediately left a building. to have gun after gun, it is a black and white issue, people want the argument that way so they can have a hollow fight. we need more complex and in the middle. >> and daniel hayes, you and roxana were both involved in the tucson tragedy where gabrielle giffords nearly died. you were there. what do you think of this debate? >> there is three points that i
9:53 pm
think need to be raised. all due respect to the folks we're talking about having more guns, having more guns does not solve the problem. having people that are trained like the police woman who stopped, who didn't even call in s.w.a.t. because she was so trained, that's the difference. in tucson we saw people that would have come up and said i had a gun and i didn't feel like it would have been a good idea to use it. there was so much chaos and confusion. when the people come in and they plan this for a significant amount of time, they are steady and ready to do this deed, but the people in the area are completely in a panic and people are in shock because this is not something that you expect. >> do you want to see the assault rifles just gone? >> i think getting rid of the assault weapons, you know, it is not a perfect bill. we will never be able to legislate against evil. we can close the loopholes to make sure we're taking them off the street. the other thing that i think is important to raise is the reason why jared loughner only killed six people, the reason only 13 were injured, he had to reload.
9:54 pm
he had semi-automatic weapon but an extended clip that had 30 rounds. the time he stopped is when someone grabbed the clip when he was trying to reload. >> lori, your daughter survived, survived virginia tech, and i love america and americans for the seven years i have lived here and i respect the second amendment. when i hear this debate, my heart sinks that there are so many people that don't see a reason to ban the high powered assault weapons. what is your view? >> i absolutely believe in banning those weapons and semi-automatic weapons. the killer at virginia tech used 30 round high capacity magazine clips on his gun and untold carnage in those classrooms, and the virginia tech families almost all of them, i speak for all of them, would like to do a better job with background checks. tom ridge served on the panel. the panel concluded at the end
9:55 pm
of their investigation that all gun sales should go through a background check. >> can you parse them out quickly to roxana. you lost your daughter. we all remember, terrible story, nine years old. what is your view? >> my view is that all military style weapons should be banned period. back ground checks for all. my husband is a gun owner. he likes to hunt. i think every weapon should have a background check and the military style weapons that you spoke of earlier, theres no reason civilians should have them. the slaughter has to stop. thank you. >> thank you very much for that. we'll be right back. whoo. can't beat that. you're doing great for the last minute. see for yourself! shop walmart's low prices for all your last minute christmas gifts. you'll see the difference.
9:56 pm
9:57 pm
9:58 pm
9:59 pm
you're not going to stop criminals. >> the argument is still going on and very vociferous between those that want to sell the rifles and those on the receiving end of the carnage they cause. i want to thank all of my guests.