tv Piers Morgan Tonight CNN January 13, 2013 12:00am-1:00am PST
>> it's inarguable. there's a changing weather pattern and the time to act is now. >> the state will look into multimillion-dollar barriers designed to hold back storm surges. for staten island residents like nick camerada, that kind of protection can't come soon enough. >> now that we don't have a seawall down there or any type of protection down at the water, when i rebuild, what's going to stop the next storm? the real money should be spent on protecting the community from the ocean coming back up. there's nothing to stop the next storm from doing basically the same thing to the community, just flooding us, possibly killing us.
>> i'm here to tell you, 1776 will commence again if you try to take our firearms. >> but get ready, the president appears ready to make some changes with or without congress' approval. how many gun murders were there in great britain? >> how many great white sharks kill people every year but they're scared to swim? >> plus, a man who knows all too well the tragic toll of gun violence. former congressman patrick kennedy. >> i was just disturbed. disturbed as a human being that this is what our civil discourse has come to. >> and i go toe-to-toe with this gun advocate. >> what you're doing is deliberately lying, deliberately twisting it. >> this is "piers morgan tonight." good evening.
america's been focusing on guns like never before. i want to revisit the best and the worst of those interviews tonight. first, want to know exactly where i stand on guns. i'm in favor of a nationwide ban on military-style semiautomatic assault weapons and high-capacity magazines. i want to close the gun show loophole and require private dealers to conduct background checks. i want to see president obama increasing federal funding for mental health treatment for all americanses who need it. i think these are perfectly reasonable steps to help this country begin to stem the tide of gun violence. there's been a petition on the white house website to have me deported on my views. here's what happened with one of the men behind the petition, alex jones. welcome to you. >> piers, thanks for having me. >> why do you want to deport me? >> we did it to bring recognition to the fact that we
have all these foreigners. he's the only guy that had the guns. so we did it to point out this is global system and the mega banks that control the panic and brag they've taken over in bloomberg, reuters, you name it, brag they're going to get our guns as well. when they get our guns, they can have their world tyranny while the government buys 1.6 billion bullets, armored vehicles, predator drones, armed in u.s. skies, being used to arrest people in north dakota. the second amendment isn't there for duck hunting. it's there to protect us from tyrannical government and street thugs. take the woman in india, the piece on cnn earlier i was watching during anderson cooper's show. didn't tell you the women of india have signed giant petitions to get firearms because the police can't and won't protect them. the answer is --
>> the answer is -- >> wait a minute. i have fbi crime statistics that come out of a year late, 2011, 20-plus percent crime drop in the last nine years. real violent crime because more guns means less crime. britain took the guns 15, 16 years ago. tripling of your overall crime. true, we have a higher gun violence level, but overall, muggings, stabbings, deaths. those men raped that woman to india to death with an iron rod 15 feet long. you can't ban the iron rods. the guns, the iron rods, piers, didn't do it. the tyrants did it. hitler took the guns, stalin took the guns, chavez took the guns. and i'm here to tell you, 1776 will commence again if you try to take our firearms. it doesn't matter how many lemmings you get on the street begging to have the guns taken. we will not relinquish them. do you understand? that why you're going to fail and the establishment knows no matter how much propaganda, the republic will rise again when you try to take our gun.
my family was at the core on both sides starting that. because santa ana came to take the guns at gonzalez, texas. piers, don't try what your ancestors did before. come to america, i'll take you out shooting. you can become an american and join the republic. >> are you finished? >> yes, i am finished. you will not take my right. you go through background checks to get guns. how about prozac? do you know the number -- oh, that's a big sponsor, isn't it, or that whole class of drugs -- >> let me -- >> got to cut that off, don't you. the u.s. number one cause of death is suicide now because they give people suicide mass murder pills. >> calm down, calm down. >> your answers give more money to psychologists to get people to kill themselves. >> let's try to have a debate. >> i'm sick of this same old script, bud. >> that's fine, bud. how many gun murders were there in america last year? do you know? >> there were about 11,448, and about 74% of those were gang
related. gang bangers shooting each other. >> that wasn't the question -- >> how many people died from infections in hospitals? 198,000. >> let me ask you -- >> that's right. >> how many gun murders were there in britain last year? >> how many great white sharks kill people every year but they're scared to swim? >> how many gun murders were there in britain? >> a very low amount. >> how many? >> only a few hundred. >> how many gun murders? >> i have the statistics. let me pull them out. i figured you'd do that. oh, wait, uk violent crime capital of europe. "london telegraph." >> simple question. you're a very loud man -- >> you're asking me little factoids. >> they're not little factoids. we're talking -- let me -- exactly my point. >> you have hoards of people burning down cities. and beating old women's brains out every day. >> what a ridiculous -- >> they arrest people in england if they defend themselves. that's on record. my god, you have a total police state. everybody is fleeing that country because --
you had to flee here, bud. you fled here. why don't you go back and face the charges for the hacking scandal? >> answer this question -- how many gun -- >> why did you get fired from "the daily mail" for putting out fake stories? you're a hatchet man of the new world order -- >> okay -- >> and i'm going to say this right here. you think you're a tough guy? have me back with a boxing ring and i'll wear red, white, and blue, and you'll wear your jolly roger. >> let's try again. how many gun murders were there in britain last year? >> how many chimpanzees can dance on a head of a pin? i already went over those statistics. >> do you know the answer? >> no, i don't. it's very low. >> you said hundreds. it's actually 35. >> well, the point is -- >> against 11,000. do you understand the difference in 11,000 and 35? >> yeah, england wants to ban knives now because tens of thousands are getting stabbed. the knife doesn't kill people. the gun doesn't kill people. >> do you understand -- >> do you understand you're not
going to pull on america's heart strings? they know your script. you're not going to get our guns. by the way, you say we only want to take the semiautos. okay, and all this other stuff. when semiautos are not even used in a fraction of the crimes. you can pull those numbers up, okay. hold on. >> let me ask you one question, which weapon was predominantly used in the aurora theater shooting? >> an m-4 ar-15 variant. >> a semiautomatic weapon. >> yes. but statistically, very low. >> do you agree it was the single biggest shooting in the history of america, in terms of people hit by a shooter. do you know that? >> i believe there were others -- over 30. >> no, no, this was the single biggest mass shooting -- >> listen, there have been bombings of wall street. >> let me ask you a -- >> why can't -- we trust them to fly the planes. >> you had a lot to say. answer the question --
>> my point is the second amendment is sacrosanct and you're not getting it. >> do you know what weapon was used in the oregon shopping mall mass shooting recently? >> i understand that people who are mentally ill on all the serotonin uptake inhibitors who play the shoot 'em up games -- because there's criminals, i don't lose my rights. >> just answer the question. do you know what the weapon used was? >> let me ask you a question. i have the fbi statistics -- listen, that the so-called semiautos that you talk about -- >> let's take a break -- >> again, you're not going to get our guns. >> when we come back, try and answer my question, okay. >> all you are going to do is sit there and play little factoid questions. overall crime has gone up 20%. >> it's not easy to get a word in but things get more heated. when we come back, alex jones' bizarre 9/11 conspiracy theory.
back now with more of my interview with alex jones, of "the alex jones show," and a man who says i should be deported for my stance on guns. here is how it's going to work. it's entirely down to you. i'm going to ask you questions. in the spirit of a proper debate you have had a lot to say on the show, a lot of it aimed at me. which is fine. it's a proper debate, i'm not trying to trip you up -- >> no, it's not a debate. you're running the show, you're -- >> okay, fine, alex, alex -- >> -- you have your note cards.
i gave you fbi statistics that violent crime and gun crime is down over 20%. >> alex, let me ask you this -- >> you want to go to little factoids. anybody can pull those up. do you have a bodyguard? why do you have bodyguards? >> i don't have a bodyguard. >> i have seen you on the news with them. >> let me ask you this question. >> why does dianne feinstein tell "60 minutes" she plans to try to take mr. and mrs. america's guns? you want to disarm all of america. >> no, i don't. >> dianne feinstein does. >> let me clarify for you -- >> first you register, then you confiscate. always the same -- >> no -- >> well, here, give me your little cue cards and i'll answer your questions for you. >> what was the weapon used at sandy hook? >> i have already gone over it. >> we haven't talked about sandy hook. >> it's a 223 m-4. statistically, they're using a low percentage. but you guys, people wouldn't go swimming because the movie "jaws" -- even though great white sharks
kill 5 people a year. you're trying to scare people. >> the same type of weapon was used in the last three mass shootings. >> and hitler used semiautos to kill people. why about fast and furious? why did our government send guns to mexico? >> alex, calm down. alex, let's have a debate -- alex, i get accused -- >> why did they get -- in new york -- >> alex, i get accused when i get you guys on of talking over you, of being rude. i'm trying to be civil. you have got to try and answer some of the questions, right? here is my issue for you. why do people need, civilians, need an ar-15-type assault weapon? >> i said statistically, they're using in a low amount of crimes. that's an fbi fact. >> but they have been used in the last three mass shootings. why do they -- >> i'll tell you why, because they advertise in the media. everybody knows if someone jumps off the empire state building, they put cops out there because there are copy cats. the media hypes and hypes and hypes. don't just commit suicide, go
commit suicide by killing a bunch of kids and use this gun because this is what the army uses. >> why do they need them? >> to protect us. a university study out of hawaii killed 292 million people. it's called democide. google it, folks. >> should everyone in america have an ar-15 if they want one? >> statistically, where there's more guns, there's lower crime. the highest crime is in bloomberg, you know -- >> but you have the most -- the 23 richest countries, you have -- >> america was born on guns and whiskey. it's true, we're a violent society. >> right. america has the most guns -- >> is it statistically, knives kill nine times morse -- >> alex, let's talk about the guns. >> have you seen the fbi numbers? knives, bats, rocks, kill many, many times more. >> it's not the rock, it's not the knife. when a mother chops her kids up with a cleaver -- >> tell me -- >> why don't you want to get rid of drugs?
because they're half your sponsors? america's number one cause of death is suicide. >> you accuse me of attacking the second amendment of the constitution. >> i want to get people off pills that the insert says will make you commit suicide and kill people. >> alex, alex -- >> i want to get to the real culprit, suicide pills, mass murder pills! >> let me ask a question. >> first time anyone has heard this, by the way. >> your belief, if i'm wrong, under the second amendment, your real concern is that you will be overrun by a tyrannical regime. either from somewhere else -- >> yes -- government -- look at mexico. total gun ban for the citizens. highest crime rate in the world. total gun ban for the citizens. switzerland has the lowest gun crime rate in europe. your country has the highest -- >> alex, alex, we have 35 a year. you have 11,000 -- >> let me ask you -- >> it's brains. it's people.
>> i'm trying to get inside your brain. >> booers, piers, if you punched me right now, it would not be your fist but your brain. >> let me get inside your brain. i'm serious, you have a very, very big platform. you're airing on 63 networks. >> no, no, wikipedia's like ten years old. i'm on like 140 stations. xm. >> over millions -- >> -- statistics are posted right now. infowars.com. >> who do you believe was behind 9/11? >> absolutely know, i have the police on cnn saying, get back, they're going to blow up seven. i have bbc reporters. >> what do you believe -- >> i have the proof. i heard them on cbs radio. >> who? >> they announced they blew up the towers on cbs radio. new yorkers all saw it and heard it. they blew up building seven. >> who do you believe was behind it? the american government? >> criminal elements, the same ones who staged the mass shootings of operation gladio. ooh, the cia doesn't like this. >> alex, alex, do you mean president bush and his administration were behind 9/11?
>> i mean that even mainstream news reported that the hijackers were ordered to be allowed into the united states. michael springman, the head of the vista department, blew the whistle on that. >> so the bush administration was part of the conspiracy -- >> to murder -- to murder -- i can speak in an accent as well. hitler firebombed his own country, piers, to bring in martial law in germany, april 7th, 1933. governments have staged terror attacks throughout history or allowed terrorists to attack as a pretext to invade -- >> how many guns do you own? alex, alex -- >> i probably own more than 50 firearms. many have increased in value two or three, maybe four times. i sleep very comfortably outside austin, texas -- >> okay, alex -- >> -- knowing i can defend my family -- infowars.com -- >> okay, alex, alex -- this is the man who wants to deport me from the country. >> it's to point out you're a
foreigner, a red coat, here telling us what to do. >> whatever. >> go back where they took the guns if you don't like it. the communists -- >> truly an interview you had to see to believe. as for the petition to deport me. the white house responded. saying no one in part should be punished by the government because he or she expressed an opinion on the second amendment. or any other matter of public concern. when we come back, two members of america's top political family reacted to alex jones' rant. patrick kennedy and christopher kennedy lawford. coming up next. oh! progress-oh! -oh! -oh! oh! oh! ♪ what do you know? oh! ♪ bacon? -oh! -oh! oh!
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nobody knows the pain of gun violence quite like the kennedy family. listen to the conversation with the world's top treatment experts. welcome to you both. >> thank you. >> two kennedys. i can't think of two better people to ask about this debate. and your reaction to the interview i had with alex jones. what did you feel? >> it was disheartening, i think. just to see the anger there and also, you know, he kept talking about the second amendment. the second amendment, thomas jefferson, who wrote the second amendment, said it should be revisited every 20 years to see if it's still appropriate. i mean, this is -- this is something that was written a long time ago. and he probably doesn't even know what the real intent of the second amendment was. so for him to quote this and just the absole vitriol of it is really disheartening.
>> i was just disturbed. disturbed as a human being that this is what our civil discourse has come to. what makes our country so great is that we're about passing power peacefully, not violently. in my last year as a member of congress, i would say perhaps half of the members of congress had to live wearing bullet proof vests and have armed guards. >> really? >> during the aftermath of obama care, when there were, the president was being held in effigy, and these comments were blocking members of congress from being able to go and vote. you may recall that. and people like john lewis were being called epithets, racial epithets. this wasn't isolated. this was happening in our nation's capital and around the country. whether it is guns or the issue
of mental health or anything that is a hot button issue, where we can't talk to one another, and that i think is the more disruptive, disturbing thing. i mean, i felt threatened when he was threatening you. and the fact that we're not thinking about one another in those ways. he was assaulting your human dignity. >> i mean, personally, i never felt threatened by him. what i felt was it was one of those interviews where you just want to let him talk. because getting inside the mind of a man who has millions of people that listen to him every week and believe what he says, there is a sort of leading commentator in american society actually saying the american government, under president bush, ordered 9/11. i mean, this is the stuff of madness. >> it is scary. i think the underlying thing is when you are talking about the guns being able to be purchased
by people who have underlying mental illness, and i have written this book that is about addiction. and 50% to 70% of the people that present with addictive disease or mental illness have the other. so we're talking about really ill folks who are able to get weapons of mass destruction really. >> and that's what these weapons are. i mean, this is what i find so disturbing about the debate. people like alex and others shout so loudly and so regularly they cloud the debate and frame it in the way they would like it to be. they're trying to grab our guns, second amendment, all of this kind of stuff. i don't want to change the second amendment. i don't want to change an american's right to bear arms in their home to defend people. i want to get rid of these killing machine assault weapons off the street. get rid of them. >> it's not what the framers had in mind -- >> when you had the sheriff say guns "don't kill people, people kill people." yet try killing that many people in such a short amount of time with a hammer or knife. that just shows how -- >> we know in the same week as sandy hook a mad man in china
attacked a school and stabbed 22 children. they all lived. that's all you need to know. had he had a gun, they would all be dead. of course guns kill. that is their only purpose. >> i also think patrick and i come from a family where gun violence definitely affected us. >> of course. >> and it affected the people immediately but it affects a family for generations. people that have been gunned down in these places like aurora and sandy hook, those people will be affected for generations, and to see the lack of compassion by folks who are demanding their right to be able to have these guns, for those that are suffering is disconcerting. >> are you surprised following the assassinations of john f. kennedy, of bobby kennedy, that we are in a position in america now where these kind of lawless mass shootings are happening
with regularity and no one is doing much about it? >> well, as i said, i think that the lack of discourse so that that is really what's offensive in our country where we should be able to debate our problems without impugning the integrity of the people who have positions, and i think we need to have a for fundamental discussion because our whole democratic system is falling apart as a country. we cannot understand and bridge the divide between this and that leaves us to fight each other and look at in an antagonizing way of each other as enemies. i think that's a fundamental problem. i think this gun issue is sparking this, but you can see all around, our democracy is in peril right now and it is that kind of fear, vitriol, paranoia that's substituting for debate in our country. >> and it has very real consequences. because what happens, as we saw in december, is america then has a surge in sales of these assault weapons and ammunition.
i could talk to you all night about it. it is a terrific book. "recover to live, kick any habit, manage any addiction," christopher kennedy lawson, great to see you. great to see you again. >> god bless. >> when we come back, a man who says he wants to have a meaningful discussion about guns in america, but does he? gun advocate larry pratt is next.
here, now, round two, larry pratt, executive director of gun owners of america. mr. pratt, welcome back to you. >> thank you for having me. >> why did you agree to come back? >> well, i thought maybe we could help you sell some more newspapers. >> more newspapers? >> increase your viewership. >> we are a television channel you are aware of that? >> i'm sorry, yes, of course. >> if you are in the meeting tomorrow with vice president biden with the nra and walmart and others, what would you be sayinging? >> that the discussion has not been going anywhere that we can tell in a productive way. we are not talking about people defending themselves precisely in these gun-free zones. hopefully, at some point, we are going to come to the realization that repeating the same policy year after year getting the same
deadly results is only going to get us the same deadly results is only going to get us the same deadly results the next time. >> right. so your solution, if you were there in that meeting, would be to arm every school, every church, every hospital, everywhere that members of the public can be? >> you certainly would want to encourage people who are qualified to carry concealed firearm to be able to do so in a school zone. right now that is illegal in all but a couple of our states and some of our institutions of higher learning. but, by and large, it's prohibited. that needs to stop because we have been using those as magnets where all of our mass murders have been occurring in these gun free zones. it just seems that we have a fixation with the idea that no defense is a good defense, and that is not a good idea. >> here is my issue with this gun free zone that you keep making.
you're not the only one who makes it. unless i'm wrong, these mass shooters pretty well know they are going to die. i mean, they go to kill a lot of people and then they know at some stage that they are going to die. because all mass shooters pretty much get killed -- >> right, and frequently, they kill themselves. >> why would the gun free zone make a difference to them? >> they are looking for, it would seem, in their sick minds, to see if they can out do the virginia tech slaughter. or some other thing that might be in their perverted minds. so, why should we give them a neon sign that says well, see if you can do better than the last guy over here? >> you know there was an armed person at virginia technology and you know there was an armed sheriff at columbine -- >> he fled. >> right, and you know that at ft. hood, one of the most heavily guarded military bases in the world, 29 people were killed and 21 wounded. >> and it was a gun free zone, no guns on base unless you were
an mp. >> my point, when you have a mass of well-trained people and a mass of fire arms, you can still have massacres. you would accept that? >> especially if you are telling the potential victim "you can't be armed." you have to wait for the calvary to get here 5, 10 or in the case of newtown, 20 minutes later. i find that unconscionable. >> i spent a loaf time, a career, carrying a weapon. an m-16 first. they fire a 5-5-6 round at about 3,000 feet per second and when it hits human flesh, it's devastating. it's designed to be that way.
and that's what i want soldiers to carry. but i don't want those weapons around our schools. i don't want them on our streets. i think that if we can't -- it's not a complete fix to just address assault weapons. but i think if we don't get very serious now when we see children being buried, then i can't think of a time when we should. >> why do you know more about an assault weapon than general mcchrystal? >> why the general was busy outside of the country, understandably, he may not have noticed the korean merchants who used an ar -- not one, but many ar-15 rifles with large magazines. >> when was that, mr. pratt? >> during the los angeles riots. >> that was, what, some 20 years ago -- >> do you know how long ago that was, mr. pratt -- >> let me finish my point -- >> you made the point the last time. it was 20 years ago.
the argument you're trying to promulgate -- >> -- around new orleans to be able to defend themselves. after the hurricanes in florida, it was people using these types of firearms that were able to defend themselves. when you have one woman in a closet who is only able to deter an assailant who's found her and her kids with five shots that hit the guy's head, and he still walks out of the house, she was out of bullets. in her six-shot revolver. >> the last four mass shootings in the last five months have all involved the ar-15 style, military style, assault rifle. widely available, as you know. even in connecticut which has supposedly quite tough gun control laws. why do you feel so strongly that civilians, despite what we just heard from a leading general,
should still be able to have access to these killing machines? >> the general and his troops are not going to be there to protect the civilians after society implodes. his experience, and i very much appreciated his service to the country, the military. but he's not dealing with what civilians have to put up with in the vacuum of somebody being around to protect them. we're on our own. and i don't want to do it with a six-shot revolver. i want a real gun to protect myself and my family. it's not just likely to be one roving bad guy. it's likely to be a gang of people. and this is not marquee to queens bury. this is the real world where we need sufficient firepower to protect ourselves. >> think you have sufficient
firepower because you have 300 million guns in circulation. i want to read these statistics to you carefully. i heard you this morning talking to alex jones who i had on earlier in the week. you were talking about these figures from britain and how apparently the gun control in britain has been a fiasco and crime has been through the roof. et cetera, et cetera. so i dug out the homicide figures from guns in england and wales by comparison to the united states of america going back to 2003. i'm going to read these quickly to you. because i think they make a point on their own. 2003, gun murders in england 68. in america 11,920. in 2004, 73, england and wales. in america 11,624. wales, in america 12,352. >> now. >> so it goes on, the same levels in both countries. let me finish.
here is my point. every time i hear you say that there is a safer country where you have more guns, my brain takes me back to these figures. because in britain, we brought in a, as you know, handgun and assault weapon ban after a situation where a similar number of school children were murdered with guns. this is the result of what happens when you take a responsible action to respond to a massacre beyond any kind of comprehension. why do you still persist in trying to persuade americans that the complete opposite is true? >> the first of all, according to your stabulary, the data that you are using for the murder rate in england is a shame. there is a monumental misreporting of what constitutes murder. if three people are murdered, it's more likely to be counted as one event -- >> what is absolute, absolute lie. that is an absolute --
>> well, you don't know what you are talking about. from a 2000 report -- >> mr. pratt, it doesn't take very long -- >> go tell the constableary of britain -- go tell them that they are lying. ask them for an apology, why don't you. >> you are telling me that 50 murders a year. these are invented statistics and the figures in britain for gun murders are many more times that? >> that is what your own constabulary is saying. i don't know if you included in your litany the murders that occurred well after the gun ban murdered. on the west coast of england. >> yeah, don't be patronizing. 50 murders in 2005. 41, 2009. 39 in 2011. >> no, you had 970.
i don't know what you are talking about. >> this is complete nonsense, mr. pratt. >> you're from another planet, mr. morgan, and that is why you are having trouble living in america. >> mr. pratt, you are telling me on cnn we had how many last year? >> 970, and you have a crime rate that is the fourth highest in the world. >> mr. pratt, you have just propagated a lie. >> go tell the editors of the "telegraph" who published that information two days after our last interview. >> mr. pratt, there were 39 gun murders in england and wales in 2011. it's a fact -- >> you are whistling past the graveyard. >> no, what you're doing is deliberately lying, deliberately twisting it so that americans who are watching this who may be tempted to buy into your ludicrous fear game, rush out to buy more weapons and more ammunition. more guns, less gun murders.
it is based on lies, and you are propagating another lie and you have said that a figure of 39. the official figures from the british home office 39 gun murders in 2011 in england and wales. it is outrageous. >> i'm sure you will feel so much better being defenseless until you need a gun, and then it will be a little too late to buy your insurance policy. >> the interview heard around the world. my sit-down with alex jones. +3+3
back now with larry pratt, executive director of gun owners of america. let's play a clip from my interview with your friend alex jones from monday night's show. >> i'm here to tell you, 1776 will commence again if you try to take our firearms. it doesn't matter how many lemmings you get on the street begging to have the guns taken. we will not relinquish them. do you understand? that why you're going to fail and the establishment knows no matter how much propaganda, they will rise again when you try to take our guns. >> what do you make of mr. jones performance on the interview? >> well, it seemed that you had i proved your demeanor quite a bit from my own experience with you, and i congratulate you for maintaining it during that whole interview. >> he maintains the whole reason that americans need to be
heavily armed is because of a threat of a tyrannical regime coming from your own government, the american government, against the american people. do you believe that? >> that is what our founders believed. that is what is important. that is why we have the second amendment. as all of our bill of rights, our ten amendments, are designed to limit what the federal government can do. that includes the second amendment, ensuring the right of the people to keep and bear arms. >> as you know, that applies to a well-regulated militia. >> you are going to lose that argument increasingly. the courts agree that was the militia act of 1796 which required all able-bodied men to own a military rifle so that they would have it at the ready were they called up. >> how many guns do you want in america, mr. pratt?
>> that is not for me to decide. that is for individual americans to decide. >> do you think every american should have an ar-15? >> every american should be able to get an ar-15. i understand, there are plenty of people who are not going to want that. there are probably people who would rather have a superior firearm. that is their choice. >> what are you going to do if president obama wins his battle and brings in new gun control legislation? >> well, he is not going to do it by legislative in my opinion. what i'm concerned about and have been concerned about, having seen the president rule by executive order where he has no authority i can see that he would go ahead. all of their gun control agenda. that, i think, changes the game and throws into question the legitimacy of the federal government.
and i would advise mr. obama to consider what happened to george iii when he was doing similar things. >> you're likening president obama to george iii? >> he wasn't banned ball and powder yet, which george iii did. but that was one of the major contributory elements toward our war for independence. and george iii, as you probably know, was so stressed by the loss of his famous favor at colony that he ended his days in a nuthouse. i wouldn't wish that on anybody. >> when i talk to you, i always look for some sense of humanity from you in this debate, that you could react to something like the sandy hook massacre in the way that i did and many other people did. and i never see it from you. all i see is a very determined attempt to make sure the only outcome is that the gun manufacturers sell more guns and
sell more ammunition as we saw in december, record gun sales, record ammunition sales. >> sir, i would ask you, where is the humanity in telling people they must be disarmed, they must be victims, they must just sit there patiently and wait their turn for a bullet? is that humanity? >> where's the humanity in doing nothing after these massacres? >> the humanity was being able to do nothing during the massacre. that was the lack of humanity. that's what we're trying to rectify. and you know what? i know this will come as more lies from larry pratt. but it's entirely possible that the house of representatives will approve a bill by representative steve stockman to do away with the gun-free school zones. >> and you'd be happy with that, if every school suddenly had people running around with guns, right? >> you're a good guesser. yes, sir. >> where are they going to put them? >> well, when people carry a
concealed firearm, one doesn't exactly know for sure. and the element of surprise remains with the person carrying concealed, which means that somebody contemplating doing something horrible doesn't know which person or persons might be able to arrest him -- to stop him. and that's why our jurisdictions that have easy access to concealed carry firearms enjoy lower murder rates than, say, the gun control mecca of chicago which does better than one murder a day. >> let me end by asking you one more question. i think people watching will be curious. you're a very experienced man in your field. you've run your operation for a long time. people take you seriously. you're a leading member of the gun rights lobby. and people believe what you say. i'm going to give you one more chance before we finish to say again how many gun murders you believed were in england and wales in 2012? >> more important than the number of murders -- and it doesn't matter how a murder is
committed. i'm not going to really care about -- >> can you repeat the number of gun murders that you said earlier? >> the data we have seen was 970. but that pales in significance compared to your violent crime rate overall, the rapes, the muggings, the beatings. >> mr. pratt, everyone watching can now get on the internet, go on to google or go to the home office sites from england and wales and they can check that figure for themselves. and when they see the accurate figure of gun murders in my country was 39 in 2011. and they see that the figure in their country was over 11,000 -- >> and remember that your own investigature of stabulary said your data are a sham. >> they can make their own minds up about your information. thanks for joining me. nothing funny about this debate unless you're jon stewart and