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tv   Your Money  CNN  March 9, 2013 10:00am-11:00am PST

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all right. later this afternoon, we'll take
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you inside the vatican. just days before the super secret conclave. we'll show you also -- we'll take you to the movies and show you the preview of the new film, "oz the great & powerful." and then that jaw-dropping video. he pushed her off. oh, my gosh. that was boyfriend and girlfriend. you can see what she says. let's see if their relationship really did survive or not. plus, the latest breaking stories crossing the cnn news desk. first, former new york city mayor rudy giuliani is one republican who is ready to spend. ali velshi finds out where he wants your tax dollars to go and whether he is ready to make another run for the white house. i'm fredricka whitfield. "your money" starts right now. more job hires in february and an all-time record high for the dow despite the forced spending cuts that went into effect last week. the economy is doing okay. americans are spectacular.
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where is the disconnect? i'm ali velshi. this is "your money." what if i told you there isn't that much of a disconnect? but maybe the economy feels worse than it actually is. the u.s. added 236,000 net new jobs in february. that's up from 119,000 in january. the unemployment rate dropped from 7.9% to 7.7%. that's keeping with a now three-year trend of job growth in the private sector. still far short of where we need to be, though. if president obama is going to keep his campaign promise to keep 12 million jobs over four years. to fulfill the president's promise, we need to see an average of at least 250,000 jobs created every month for 48 months in a row. that will get us to 12 million by the end of his second term in office. one month in and the president is only 14,000 jobs short of where we would need to be right now. i was skeptical when both mitt romney and president obama said that it could be done, so skeptical that i wagered that it wasn't likely, not with the
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economic growth that we've got in the united states. before the election, i promised that i would wear a dress if 12 million jobs are created over the next four years under any president and whether or not i plan to honor that pledge, i am constantly reminded of it. as crazy as this sounds, i actually want to lose my bet, not that i want to wear a dress, but i want a lot of jobs to be created. none of this seems to matter to investors right now. the dow broke a record high last week, highlighting that disconnect that some of you think between the wider economy, how you feel, and corporate america. there was a time when the stock rally went hand in hand with economic prosperity. now american companies make their money abroad or make it by eliminating inefficiencies and increasing productivity with fewer workers, and there's also the fed. low interest rates and low inflation have conspired to make the stock market the only liquid investment gain in town. that's p pushing the dow to record highs. steven moore is a senior economics writer and editorial board writer at "the wall street journal." you are a deficit hawk.
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you must be ecstatic about the forced spending cuts in washington one week into this sequester, the sky hasn't fallen despite the president's warnings, the dow is flying high, we've got job creation continuing. do you think we're on the right track despite having a president many consider anti-business? >> not quite as jubilant as you are, ali, but it was a very positive jobs report, and these are the kind of numbers we need as you said correctly for the next three or four years and that we should expect give than we're in a kroefr. i do think that the sequester has really been a nonevent with respect to the financial markets. businesses are plowing ahead. and i think a lot of the dire forecasts that cutting government spending was going to hurt the economy, look, it just started so we've only had this for a week or two, but i was one of the people who said, look, this might be a positive thing for the economy in terms of giving business some assurance that at least washington will start cutting somewhere.
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>> let's look behind the numbers on the jobs report. christine romans hosts "your bottom ne." gives us a breakdown of the february jobs numbers. >> i often say there's the good, the bad, and the ugly in the numbers. this time it's the great, the good, and the ugly. the great first. when you look within the private sector hiring, 36 months in a row of private sector job creation, 36 months. that's what we want, companies confident in deploying their assets by hiring people. where are they hiring? business services, up 73,000. construction up 48,000. that's a sign of strength in the housing market. there were some construction jobs earlier, maybe last year, probably because of hurricane sandy rebuilding, but now you're seeing help from construction because of housing. and health care, 32,000 jobs in health care. we've seen that again and again and again. there are two economies in america. one is health. the health care economy. the other economy is the one the rest of us live in. then the ugly. 133,000 people dropped out of the labor market. there was no place for them.
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they simply stopped looking. you look at the labor force participation rate, a number still so troubling. 63.5%, the lowest since july 2012. to get worse to that you have to go back to september 1918. you want to see that number getting bigger as more people come back in and feel like there's a place for them in the economy. >> diane swonk is chief economist at mesereau financial in chicago. christine laid out the things we eno are the ugly. all i've been asked all week with these market highs, why is there this disconnect? how is it we're breaking records on storms, not just the dow, the s&p 500, you would have made more money over the last five years in the s&p 500, in the broader market as well. explain this to me. why the disconnect? >> well, the disconnect i think you laid it out fairly well, one, corporations are making money by cutting costs and increasing productivity and they've reduced their interest expense. they've delevered amazingly with
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the low interest rates the federal reserve has provided but that's also meant to boost asset prices. one place you've seen it is in the stock market. we've got this battle between easing monetary policy trying to offset fiscal drag. so far it's a battle where it's two steps forward, one step back. they're winning but not big. on the other side, the sequester, i think it's really important to point out that we haven't seen the effects of that yet. the first effects will be furloughs and income, later jobs. >> thanks, friends, for being with us. diane swonk from mesereau financial, and steven moore, editorial write we are "the wall street journal." coming up, why is america's debt ballooning? ineffective politicians, wasteful government programs and moochers? my next guest says you're wrong. i'm going to bust some budget myths. as you know, i' been casting a wide net looking for anyone willing to reach across party lines to solve our economic
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problems. could rudy giuliani be the answer? >> i did try it once. it didn't work. >> that's history. what's the future? >> i was a lit tool moderate on social issues. >> you haven't changed much on that front. >> if anything, i've become more moderate. >> if a republican party stands a chance to win -- >> you want to know what i think? >> we do. don't miss my interview with him. this is $100,000.
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the dow ask hitting new record highs, and some things are looking good. lest we forget, though, we have a serious fiscal problem in this country. we're one week into the so called sequester, the forced spending cuts because your elected leaders couldn't come up with a better, smarter way to shrink our debt. tuesday, paul ryan, you know him, he'll release his budget, sure to create a new whirlwind of controversy over taxing and spending. joining me now is david
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leonhart, the washington, d.c., bureau chief for "the new york times" and also author of a must-read great new ebook called "here's the deal." welcome to the show. in your book -- >> thank you. great to be on. >> -- you argue we have come to believe a story about the deficit that isn't true. you write, "looming deficits seem to stem from weak-willed politicians, wasteful government programs that do not benefit us, and tax avoidance by people we have never met." in truth, the coming deficits stem above all from the fact that most americans are scheduled to receive far more in medicare benefits than they have paid in medicare taxes. you cite a shocking stat from the urban institute to back that up. i want to give my viewers this. a couple earning average wage who is retired in 2010 paid $88,000 into medicare, including the employer portion, by the way, that they didn't pay. that couple will receive benefits worth $387,000. david, medicare is the biggest
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driver of our debt. how do we fix it? should we voucherize a la paul ryan? what's the solution? >> and one thing that's important to know about those number, that includes premiums, inflation, all the things that a good calculation would include. so basically, the problem to some extent is we're all takers. the reason we have a deficit is on average we're taker, getting more from medicare than we're paying in. while our deficit in the medium term seems to be under control in part because of the austerity, in the long term it's a big problem. the first step is acknowledging that and saying the way to solve it has to be some combination of tax increases on us or benefit cuts to us. it's not something you can do just by affecting the other guy. >> one of the criticisms the media get, it's actually a criticism i get a lot, people say whether it's medicare or social security, they are entitled to the money, in fact, they're called entitlements because they paid for it. with social security, they're
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more right than they are with medicare. >> that's correct. with social security, there is a long-term problem with social security in part because we're going to have many more retiree rooes in 25 years than we have today, particularly relative to the number of workers. but with medicare, it's just not true you've paid for your benefits. if someone works their whole life and dies at the age of 67, that person has more than paid for their medicare benefits, but the average person does not. at base, that is why we have a deficit. it's hard for people to get their minds around. that's part of the reason why the deficit is so hard to solve. if any politician comes out with a proposal to deal with it, it's easy for the other side to attack them because people have these views of the deficit that don't completely conform with the actual deficit. >> is it fair to say we can reform these things by changing some of the benefits? sure, it will hurt people a little bit, but we also can find a way to not benefit those who don't need the benefit? >> yes, so that's the second half of this. that's right. it's important. we have a serious long-term deficit problem. but it's not like it is so big
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that solving it requires completely ripping up the social contract. some combination of relatively modest tax increases and/or relatively modest but still significant changes to the way the health care system works could do it. it's worth remembering, we spend almost twice as much per person on health care as any other country in the world. so there's got to be some waste in there because while we have in some ways the best health care system in the world, in many ways we don't. there have got to be ways to do it that don't completely ruin our current health care system. >> david, good to talk to you. we can talk for a lot longer. david leonhardt is author of "here's the deal," washington bureau chief with "the new york times." back in 2009 i wrote a book called "gimme my money back. "i talked about the stock market. i said despite what's going on in the stock market, remember, january 2009, the market was almost at the lowest that it reached. i said i'm sticking to my investment plan. despite the current turbulence i haven't changed it one bit. i know the market will recover
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and that my investments will grow. the dow hit record highs this week. if you've been listening to me yell "buy" for the past five years, you are rich right now. you probably don't need to watch this show. if you ignored me, i forgive you, i guess. in either case, we'll look at where to put your money now. and rudy giuliani says the u.s. government is spending too much of your money on the wrong things. i'll tell you where he wants to put it instead. what do you see? um, i see a duck. be more specific. i see the aflac duck. i see the aflac duck out of work and not making any money. i see him moving in with his parents and selling bootleg dvds out of the back of a van. dude, that's your life. remember, aflac will give him cash to help cover his rent, car payments and keep everything as normal as possible. i see lunch. [ monitor beeping ] let's move on. [ male announcer ] find out what a hospital stay could really cost you at [ babies crying ] surprise -- your house was built on an ancient burial ground. [ ghosts moaning ]
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ooh $150 billion a year came out of stocks over the past three years. now, i know a number of you see these highs in the market and worry it's a ticking time bomb. i don't like to make too much of a deal about stock market record but you can't ignore the trend, which is strong. wli? low interest rates for starters courtesy of the fed mean you can't make much money in bank or bond funds. stock market is the only liquid investment game if town. the price of a stock is a factor or the of how much a company is expected to earn because you as a shareholder are entitled to a piece of that profit. right now stocks are priced
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lower in relation to their expected earnings than we were the last time we hit a market high in october of 2007. to be sure the rally will end one day, they always do. a change in the fed's lower interest policy or if they decide to stop pumping tens of billions of dollars into the economy every month could pre p precipitate that. matt mccauley, if you are one of those people who wants to get into the market, which people are tempted to do when we get to new highs, how would you do it? >> buy right into the market. just get into the overall s&p 500. there's a lot of etfs and funds to do that. the problem is a lot of vost right now see individual stocks hitting highs so they'll try to pick those individual stocks. as you just showed the entire stock market more than doubled from the bottom. you didn't have to pick stocks. you could have been in the u.s. market and rode this wave. roger luna is a bear but not really a hard-line bear, more of a gummy bear. robert, nobody wants to buy
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stocks when they're down and out. everybody wants to get in when the records are being set. you think now is not the time to buy into the broader market that matt just described. >> well, like you said, i mean, i'm not an extreme bear, but i think we've come a little too far a little too fast here. let's not forget what happened last year around this time. the first quarter of last year the s&p was up 13%, only to correct 11% right into the second quarter. so while i'm not advocating you go out and sell everything in your entire portfolio right now, what i am advocating you do is what we're doing for our clients right now. it's take a break while all the pandemonium is breaking loose, look at what you hold in your portfolio right now, not necessarily etfs, stocks, bonds, what's the dollar value of your portfolio today? and ask yourself one simple question. if i had that money to invest today, would i place it exactly the same way i'm allocated today? if the answer is no, then those are the areas you want to look to sell in your portfolio, because at the end of the day
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there are some areas technically and fundamentally that are just priced way too high right now. >> let's look at what some of the things are that both you like and don't like. you like the wisdom tree small cap dividend etf. you buy and sell them like stocks. >> i like this because typically when a market is strong like i believe it will be strong for the next year, if we're going into into the fifth year of the bull market, that's only happened five times in the past. the five times it's done that, typically 20% up. i like the exposure to small caps and the income coming in. >> i've always followed this one with interest. the i shares u.s. oil equipment and services because we have an energy boom going on. >> we do. this is one sector that has lagged the market. as you see in the chart, it's pulled back as the market is hitting highs. great valuation. we're going to continue to expand to drill onshore, deep offshore. these are companies that will
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benef benefit. >> robert, you like oil as well, conocophillips, lincoln national, a financial company, and chevron and jpmorgan as well. >> yeah. you know, we think the same thing that matt was talking act right now, we like oil simply for the fact that it's undervalued right now. it's one of the cheapest s&p sectors. when you look at a stock like conocophillips, th's yielding about 4.5%. they're going to be expanding production over the next five years so they actually have the capability to increase that dividend we think pretty substantially over the next five years. you know, the financials have done pretty well as of late, but if you look back to where with they were at their highs when the s&p was back at their highs in 2007, they're still down about 50%. and they've got everything in their corner right now. interest rates are starting to rise, which will definitely help them. property values are stabilizing. if you look at the case like a lincoln national, variable annuities, one of their biggest growth arias, they're one of the only major players left in that area. as you see the market stabilizing that will benefit those companies as well.
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>> great advice who don't share exactly the same view of the market. you reflect our viewership. thank you very much. want a great return on your investment? check out what your tax dollars could bring you. >> this kind of spending stimulates the economy for real. >> i'll tell you what kind of spending he's talking about. one-on-one with rudy giuliani. and then actress daryl hannah will make her case on why the keystone pipeline will be a disaster. is she right? is it worth it? with my dentures. i love kiwis. i've always had that issue with the seeds getting under my denture. super poligrip free -- it creates a seal of the dentures in my mouth. even well-fitting dentures let in food particles. super poligrip is zinc free. with just a few dabs, it's clinically proven to seal out more food particles so you're more comfortable and confident while you eat. super poligrip free made the kiwi an enjoyable experience. [ charlie ] try zinc free super poligrip.
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your uf heard me say this before. u.s. infrastructure is in a sorry state. the american society of civil engineers gives america a diame grade but the u.s. isn't planning to fix the problem. the american society of civil engineers estimates they'll need $225 billion by 2020 to bring
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infrastructure into repair but predicts the u.s. will spend a third of that. we know investment in infrastructure has long-term benefits. by investing $1 trillion in infrastructure, the u.s. saves more than that in costs to businesses alone, not to mention massive cost savings to households of $3 trillion bump to gdp, and an additional 3.5 million jobs created. america may not be making the investment, but other countries are. china spends 9% of economic output on infrastructure. europe spends 5%. the u.s. spends less than half of that, 2.4%. that's changed over the years. we used to spend a lot more. former new york city mayor rudy giuliani was once a republican presidential contender. today he's one republican who is not opposed to spending as long as he sees a return on that investment. >> when you build a school, when you fix a railroad, when you fix a pipeline, when you build electrical or water connections,
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that benefits people for 30 years, 40 years 50shgs years, 100 years. >> your grandchildren might be getting a bill but getting the benefit. >> they should pay for it. >> the federal government, look, bottom line, is everybody's looking for ways to cut. why not something, for instance, like an infrastructure bank where the government puts something in? >> it would make a lot of sense. >> and the private sector gets -- >> and i'd have no problem with financing a lot of that because, in fact, you can spread that cost out over 20, 30, 40 years, because the benefit's going to be spread out over 20, 30, 40 years. >> what about the criticism it happens at the state level, the criticism that can happen at the federal level that the national interest in infrastructure will play second place to getting money for districts in my state or getting money for a particular place? >> that's why it needs some protection. mayor koch, one of his great accomplishments was, because of the fiscal crisis in new york, money was taken out of infrastructure. he had to live with that for two, three years when they really had almost no capital budget. the mayor got concerned the city
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would fall apart. he began a capital expenditure campaign, 20 years, can't do it all at once, but put aside what he could afford, i expanded it, i gave t to bloomberg, he expanded it. it's been going on for 20, 25 years, the city is much better shape as a result of it. we finance it because it's going to benefit the future. so two republican mayors and two democratic mayors able to agree with this. i consider myself a political fiscal conservative. >> right. >> that kind of spending is very, very tight. it's very important. it gives long-term benefit. and if the president had done this with the stimulus program instead of the giveaway it game, this economy would be humming right now. >> then he tried to do it with an infrastructure bank in his jobs bill. >> he screwed it around with the -- he lost credibility with the shovel ready project. we have all these shovel ready
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projects. now it came time to find the shovels and there were none. the president did the same thing unfortunately recently with the sequester. >> we have a lot of shovel ready projects, i'll let that go for a second. in a political climate like ours it's unattractive to push this kind of agenda. >> there are things that are more politically attractive. this is more for the good government types, the people who look at government budgets and really understand it. but this is where leadership comes in. this is why we need leaders. >> with what's going on in the political situation right now, i think we're going to be looking for fiscal conservatives and leaders to compete, particularly for the republican party. you thought about going back to -- >> i did try it once. didn't work. i was a little too moderate on social issues. >> haven't changed on that front. >> i haven't changed at all. if anything, i've probably become more moderate. >> isn't that likely -- i mean, if the republican party stands a chance to win -- >> you want to know what i think? >> yeah. >> a republican candidate, not necessarily me, a fiscal
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conservative, call him a foreign policy conservative for shorthanded, but is a social, not even progressive but social moderate. open to choice, open to gay rights, gay marriage, maybe yes, maybe no, but certainly civil unions and protection against discrimination. i think a candidate like that is almost unbeatable. >> but the pacs don't embrace that. >> this is a chicken and egg thing. can't nominate a candidate like that. democratic party used to have this problem in the '80s, that's when the new democratic coalition emerged. >> basically they said to those on the fringe, form your own party if you want, do something else. >> give us a guy who can say we'll end welfare as we know it, an old-line liberal could not have nominated that. but bill clinton says let's end welfare as we know it. >> do you think the republican ds can do that? >> that happens when people start to get desperate because they see themselves with no
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influence on policy for years. i don't know if we're igt quite there yet but we may be there. >> would you be open to that call? >> i don't know if i would be but i'd certainly be hopeful trying to find somebody like that. >> interesting discussion with rudy giuliani. coming up, i'm going to take you to my home country of canada and show you what the real fight over the keystone pipeline is all about. this is it. we are literally walking on black gold. this is what we came here to say. this is oil sand, sand that's encased in water and oil. in fact, this is about 10% crude oil. daryl hannah will join me next to explain why environmentalists are drawing a line in the tar sand when it comes to building the keystone pipeline. featuring the exhilarating is. ♪ engineered to take on the most thrilling curves no matter where they are. the lexus is performance line. real performance demands real precision.
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after one false start and much anticipation, the state department finally leased a draft report on the environmental impact of the proposed keystone xl pipeline extension. now, if it's aahpproved it woul move more than 800,000 barrels of oil per day from canada's oil sands to the u.s. heartland and beyond to global markets via the gulf of mexico. proponents say the expansion would bring a crucial energy source, oil, to the u.s. from our friendly neighbor next door, canada, and reduce america's dependence on imports from other more volatile regions of the world. seems obvious but it's not without controversy. environmental groups oppose the pipeline because the landscape in canada's alberta province is already devastated from oil sand mining there and they say it will be more so with the keystone xl expansion. the state department report down plays those claims which effectively clears the way for the pipeline to move forward.
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this is what we are talking about. black sticky sand. it's soaked in oil. i picked this up almost five years ago when i travelled to alberta to see the oil sands for myself. >> reporter: one-third of the world's known oil deposits are right here in the dirt. so that's where we headed on our energy hunt, from new york to ft. mcmurray, alberta. this is it. we are literally walking on black gold. this is what we came here to see. this is oil sand. it's sand that's encased in water and oil. in fact, this is about 10% crude oil. large quantities of oil embedded in sand only occur in two places in the world, venezuela and canada. giant shovels scoop up 100 tons of oil-laden dirt at a time. hundreds of trucks move across the landscape all day and night
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every single day. to get a lot of earth to make oil it takes about two tons of oil sands to make one barrel of oil. this big hauler holds 400 tons of oil sands, so once that's all filled up and made into oil, you'll have about 200 barrels of oil. that's right. two tons of oil sand makes one barrel of oil. but at today's oil prices it's wildly profitable. that's why major players like exxonmobil, shell, chevroning, and others squeeze 1.5 million barrels of oil out of this land every day, and they send most of it to the u.s. it's costlier than getting it from a simple land well because the tar-like oil has to be separated from the sand. and that uses lots of natural gas and warm water. the result is a heavy molasses-like oil which has to be upgraded into a lighter, high quality form of crude that can then be easily refined into gasoline, home heating oil, and other petroleum products.
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canada produces much more oil than it needs, so the excess oil is sold and sent by pipeline to its best customer, the united states. joining me now to discuss the negative side of the oil sanlds in the keystone xl pipeline is ben jones. he was president obama's green jobs czar during his first time in office, advising the president on ways to promote growth in the alternative energy sector in this country. he's a cnn contributor. joining us from los angeles is actress daryl hannah. you may know her from "splash," "wall street," and "kill bill," but she's a public activist for environmental causes. now she is the exec froif deucer of a new documentary movie coming out this weekend called "green lying bastards." here's a klim from the trailer. >> uncover the conspiracies behind the campaigns. >> this is what i want it to look like. >> and the greedy lying bas stards behind it all. >> could it be that man made global warming is the greatest hoax ever perpetrated on the american people? >> the greatest hoax ever
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perpetrated on the american people. >> corporations who have us where we are, who have us over a barrel, would love to keep it that way. >> daryl hannah, welcome. there are two issues with the keystone xl pipeline -- >> thank you. >> -- that the environmental community raises, one what the expanded network could mean for increased oil sand mining in canada, which arguably devastates the environment there and releases more carbon emissions than normal drilled oil. two is thesafety concerns of the pipeline itself in the united states. let's focus on that for a second. america has pipe likes kriz crossing the country sending oil and gas to one place or another. there's already a network that sends oil from the oil sanlds into america. they're not foolproof. why so much concern about pipelines now? we have a lot of pipelines already. >> well, this is not conventional crude. right? you saw it for yourself. this is a much more corrosive, heavy substance.
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it needs to be heated to 150 degrees to get it to move. they need to inject it with a lot of chemicals to get it to move through the pipe so, that makes it a much more corrosive substance. that will greatly endanger our fossil replenishing aquifer which is we cannot risk when we have unprecedented droughts and wildfires and crop losses in the breadbasket of our country. the aquifer which it will go through is -- serves as a water source for a third of our country's ranch and farm lands and drinking water for millions of people. then it's going to go through further aquifers down the way. but, i mean, there are so many issues. these aren't the only two issues. that is pipeline that's going through america, not to america. we're already processing some of that oil in oklahoma, like you said. but the reason they want to get it to the gulf is so they can get it, as you said, to the global market. and they can't get it to the global market the easiest way through their country, to the pacific through that line because their citizens have
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stopped it. >> let me show my viewers what we're talking about here. this is the oil sands over here. when you make it into that diluted bitumin, that sticky substance, it becomes this. once it's refined from there to here, it becomes something like oil and that becomes refined into gasoline or home heating oil. ben jones, you have referred to the administration's approval of this, if it comes, as jabbing a dirty needle of a pipeline into america. you've likened it to drug addiction. you've said this will become obama's pipeline. >> yes. >> you're a democrat. >> i'm a democrat. i'll tell you what, this is one of the most remarkable stories i think that has not been covered. i'm so glad you're covering this. our president, my beloved president, has said he wants to be this climate champion. you heard that. beautiful speech he gave at the inauguration. brought tears to my eyes. people all around the world. but then what happens? we say we're going to do this pipeline. this pipeline is a very, very
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interesting thing. first of all, it's a foreign corporation that's saying it's going to take land from american famers. when you point to that bitumin, that is the problem for america's farm land. that is not oil. that is a -- >> put some meat on the bones. you have an example. >> sure. kalamazoo, michigan. there was a pipeline trying to move that stuff. that is pipe-eating goo. that is not oil. and that pipeline cracked, and when that stuff hit the water, nobody knew what to do with it. now we spent almost a billion dollars, four year s and the caa zoo rif may never come back. that's from one leak. this is not oil. this is a pipe-eating, planet-cooking, water-fouling goo that nobody know what is to do with, and we're going to shoot it across america's farm land and waterways, why? so a foreign corporation, who's made no promises to sell any of it to us, can get it to the global market, mainly china. as a democrat, i'm begging for
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somebody to stop this crazy thing. >> daryl hannah, let me ask you something. we use a lot of oil in this world. it would be great if we used less. we don't use enough alternatives. that's a topic for another conversation as to why we don't. the argument is that oil is going to get used by somebody in the world. >> part of that that problem is because one of the issues behind why we don't use enough of that is because canada has been senting their diplomats all over the world to fight climate legislation. they've lobbied the european union to fight climate legislation, you know, because they want to increase projects like the tar sands because they know that if they can expand the tar sands to the size of the state of florida that they have billions of dollars to make. but this pipeline is not in our national interest. it doesn't have any benefit to the american people. we will assume all the risk, and they will reap all the benefit by making billions of dollars. this fuel is not destined for
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us. they're just using us. they're using us. it's like -- it just doesn't make any sense. >> you set it up nicely because i actually have a canadian diplomat going to be joining us on the show actually, the canadian ambassador to the united states. >> ask him act why they keep sending their diplomats everywhere to battle the climate change legislation. >> i will have that discussion. >> good question for him. >> thank you for teasing my next segment. daryl hannah, exec froif deucer of "greedy lying bastards," which opens this weekend, a resume the rest of you all know. van jones, cnn contributor and former green jobs adviser to president obama. think of the jobs. think of the energy independence. think of green house gases. we're going to talk about the other side of the controversial pipeline debate when we come back.
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let's continue our conversation about the keystone xl pipeline, the controversy. ambassador gary dewar, canadian ambassador to the united states, joins us. daryl hannah still with us. a lot of material in that last one including the fact that
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canadian ambassadors are going around the world to, you know, to get sort of -- sell everybody on this idea. >> well, the canadian ambassador was in copenhagen. we obviously joined with president obama committing to the reductions, the green house gas reductions, the same ones. we were in copenhagen talking about how we could reduce green house gases by having light vehicle energy efficiency standards, which we've implemented. so has the president. >> the issue, though, is that the production of oil, if you drill a hole in texas for oil, it is -- it doesn't -- the actual drilling of the oil doesn't produce green house gases. but the argument is that the production of this oil sand, the way to get the oil out of of this nugget, out of the sand, uses green house gas because you've got to use natural gas and warm water. >> yes. >> there's more green house gases produced in the production of the oil, not the use of it. >> no. the use will depend on demand.
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that's why light vehicle standards that we both agreed to, yes, the ambassador was fighting for i actually fought for it before i was an ambassador. it has been implemented. but the canadian oil, of course, it's being reduced in its greenhouse gases every year, as you know. >> because of what? technology? >> well, technology, energy efficiency and water production is way below ethanol now. also, if you look at it, the displacement of venezuelan oil by canadian oil and oil from north dakota and montana, which is never mentioned, oil goes on this pipeline from the united states, canadian oil, and this oil has less greenhouse gases presently than the venezuelan crude it's going to displace. and it has less ghgs -- >> greenhouse gases. >> -- than some of the californian oils. >> this is the oil sands in here.
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>> yes. >> this here is the -- what is it called? dil bit, diluted. that's the stuff that goes through the pipelines, the stuff van jones called pipe-eating goo that ate through the pipe in kalamazoo, michigan. i spoke to the pipeline company. he said this is no more corrosive than regular oil. >> well, the bottom line is the state department, again, last week came out and evaluated all these allegations. and i guess the old saying -- i guess you're entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts. and in the state department report written by scientists, not by a ceo of a company, not by an ambassador, it basically said it will have no difference because the oil is going to be harvested in canada. it will make no difference to the greenhouse gases. and in fact, if it's stopped, the pipeline is stopped, the oil will come down to the united states or go to market on trains
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which has 8% higher greenhouse gases than the pipeline. so actually, the unintended consequence of blocking the pipeline with all the noble intentions on climate change. because we agree that we all have to te action on climate change. high he emissions. >> the canadian ambassador says he shares the view on climate change and there will be more greenhouse gases if you don't use this oil. >> that's just ridiculous. first of all, the state department report has been unilaterally written off as inaccurate and incomplete. it was also written by someone who has close ties with trans-canada. and so it's being looked into. second of all, you're not even -- you're not even taking into the calculations the fact that in order to create these vast toxic lethal strip mines, the one which exists now up in alberta is the size of the city of chicago, and they plan to expand to the size of florida. it has to decimate, completely strip away an entire forest.
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that has to be calculated in terms of carbon emissions as well. >> let's answer that. >> excuse me, let me finish. >> okay. i want to get an answer to that, the boreal forest. let the ambassador -- >> somebody set aside half the boreal forest in my province of man manitoba, we set aside the size of france. the material that we're getting is quite interesting. i would just say to people that are opponents of the pipeline, you can listen to darryl hannah, or you can listen to a professional scientist that produced the report by the united states state department that was released last week. i as a citizen will choose -- >> that was cowritten with a trans-canada associate. >> yeah, yeah. you can listen to scientists, or you can listen to a celebrity. >> let's talk about -- let's talk about science. if you can try to diminish me, but -- >> no, no, i'm not. >> -- from reports that i've
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read and studies, if you want to listen to science, why don't you listen to the science of, say, the pentagon or the world bank or the last citibank report? the world bank report that came out about the climate crisis said that if we continue using fossil fuels and especially these carbon-intensive fossil fuels like tar sands, we are looking at total systems collapse, and they recommended, the world bank, recommended themselves that we end our use of fossil fuels as quickly as possible. now, the good news is, if solar energy continues to grow and expand the way that it has the last five years for the next five years here in the united states, we will be getting 50% of our energy from solar. your oil that you're trying to get out to the marketplace because right now you don't have access because you can't get it to your coastline through enbridge. you want to use it because you can pay off politicians the money. >> let's let him respond to that. >> excuse me, the whole issue -- we agree, we've signed on to the
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copenhagen agreement along with the president. we are reducing per capita demand on oil in both canada and united states. i think a lot of environmentalists don't give the president enough credit for the most radical action on reducing oil usage in the united states through the action he took with light vehicles and heavy vehicles. we also know, and we are supporting renewable energy. canada has 63% of its electricity produced by renewable energy. so i'm glad you're moving ahead on some of these areas in the united states. but the bottom line is, you can't use solar energy to drive a car or a truck right now compared to the oil that's necessary for that kind of mobility and the electricity in the hybrid cars. >> what you are getting, my viewers, is a taste of the controversy over these oil sands. guess what? we are not going to solve it on this show, but we appreciate the passionate discussion here. i have been there several times. i'm going to keep on going and
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reporting all of the facts to you. thank you for being here for this discussion. gary doer is canadian ambassador to the united states. darryl hannah is the executive producer of "greedy lying basta bastar bastards" this opens up this weekend. this conversation doesn't end here. i invite you both back to continue it. don't go anywhere. you're watching "your money." what? customers didn't like it. so why do banks do it? hello? hello?! if your bank doesn't let you talk to a real person 24/7, you need an ally. hello? ally bank. your money needs an ally.
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