tv Fareed Zakaria GPS CNN April 21, 2013 7:00am-8:00am PDT
>> thank you, martin savage in west, texas. so many more questions than answers. we want to thank you for watching "state of the union." if you mis. ed any part of today's show, find us on itunes. this is gps, the global public square. welcome to you in the united states and around the world. i'm fareed sa kwar ya. today the lone surviving suspect in the the boston attack lies in a hospital bed unable to speak, unable to explain the destruction he and his brother are alleged to have wrought. we'll start with an exclusive interview with ray kelly, the commissioner of the new york
police department. he runs one of the largest counterterrorism teams outside of the federal government and we'll get his key insights. then soft targets, ieds, high value interrogation, chechnya and more. we'll dig deep into some of these crucial aspects of the case with a true all-star panel. also on the show we'll take a few breaks from terror to look at gold which isn't quite as glittery as it used to be and what the congress could learn from these legislators. but first, here's my take. we're learning a great deal about the men who planted bombs at the boston marathon. and we will learn more in. colluding on this program today and in the weeks ahead and better understand a terrible story of ail nation and brutal murder. were these men an unusual case or are they part of something larger?
how and when did they turn? in one important sense, however, this was textbook terrorism. the plan was to frighten us. terrorism is an unusual tactic in that it depends on its success on response of the onlooker. that's why people have often said about terrorists they want a few people dead and a lot of people watching. but if we who watch are not terror rised, then by definition. it it didn't work. how did we do? pretty well. the people of boston handled crisis with calm and determination. they shut down most of the city on friday for the manhunt, a decision that could be debated, but the people of boston stayed steady and are already getting back to normal. i spent seven years living in boston and i was always struck by the city and its people's strength of character. they have a tough new england spirit, an ethic that prizes
doing one's job and not making a fuss. but beyond boston, we americans may have come to realize, finally, that the most important counterterrorism program out there is resilience. things were different after 9/11. that was a much larger attack raising much larger concerns. many of the things that followed, security measures, the overthrow of the taliban, were necessary. but others in retrospect were not. the homeland security bureaucracy shutting down travel, turning it into an expanding war on terror. osama bin laden saw the rational from 9/11 in precisely the overreaction it produced among americans and he said so on several occasions. resilience is partly a matter of character, but it's also one of public policy. steven flynn, a scholar at northeastern university who has written widely about this,
argues that despite the billions spent, we never made it a priority. in written testimony given last july to the kme of homeland security, flynn predicted that small attacks carried out by one to three operatives particularly that reside in the u.s. can be carried out with little planning and on relatively short knows. as such they are unlikely to atrack the attention of the national intelligence community and the attacks are impossible for the federal law enforcement community to stop. so how to make ourselves more resilient? the steps we need to take are not that sexy. we need to upgrade our transit systems and infrastructure so as to make them less vulnerable to attacks. for example, flynn notes the u.s. navy has invested more in protecting the single port of san diego that is home to the pacific fleet than the department of homeland security has invest ed in the ports of ls angeles, long beach, san francisco, oakland, seattle, and
tacoma combined, upon which a bulk of the u.s. economy relies. we must strengthen recovery in the event of a biological attack, which is still the most worrying threat out there. we need to make sure that the public understands the nature of these threats and how it can help identify and respond to them. above all, it needs to understand how not to respond to them. when bad things happen, it's easy to react out of fear, emotion and anger. let's hope that in boston this week we begin to chart a different course. for more on this, you can read my column in a special edition of "time" magazine on the tragedy in boston. let's get started. joining me now the man who runs the biggest police force in america and one of the country's
best intelligence divisions, ray kelly, the commissioner of new york. what do you have to tell us in the aftermath of this? is there a heightened sense of danger? are you seeing threats proliferate? >> no, we haven't seen an increase in threats, but our operating assumption is that we're always at risk. we're a city that obviously had two horrific attacks here in 1993 and 2001. we have had 16 plots against the city since then. so we are on alert all the time. >> i notice that the most of the plots that you talked about, the 16 that you thwarted, what happened here in boston was an event. is that a difference that is me meaningful? >> well, all terrorism is theater. this event was a major event
certainly in the life of boston. it was a holiday, it's the end of the marathon, it was time to go off when probably the maximum number of people would be there crossing the finish line. so clearly it was meant to put on a show. it was very significant. we have plots here against the sunway system, against the brooklyn bridge. i see this in the same bag pall. >> you commissioned a report on radicalization in the islamic community. what strikes me is these guys seem to be straight out of that report. they are unremarkable men, that's a term used in that report. they are self-radicalized it it appears to be. it it leads me to wonder what do you do about it? these are people who have no history that suggests much. >> it was done by two people and
was a very thoughtful piece. it brought together a lot of the thinking about this phenomena. you have unremarkable young people, men in the case that e we looked at and men here, who become radicalized in some fashion. usually what the mentor of some sort and they decide to kill people in their own country. it's a phenomena that i don't think we have totally gotten our palms around, but we see it it it again and again. we have seen it it here on several occasions. we had two high school companions that went to flushing high school and decided to blow themselves up on the subway system in new york. >> do you think the fbi should have made more of the trip to russia, that that should have been more of a tip off? >> hindsight is 20/20 now.
it it didn't seem to be anything of significance. nothing jumped out. it seems to me that they could not have done anything more reasonably. we're going to, we being the government, is going to take a look at that and the history of these young men, but they certainly didn't stand out in a dramatic way. >> i look at the manhunt, 9,000 people going after these two untrained kids. many different agencies involved, it turned out well, but i wonder for a city like new york, this would be such a huge undertaking. do you have a game plan were something like this to happen? >> ultimately, it worked out well up there. they were able to mass resources. you have a lot of different jurisdictions. it seemed to me that it went
well. in new york city we have the biggest police force in the country. we have 35,000 uniformed officers. we're able to mass officers in significant numbers if we had to. so sure, we do variations of things much more almost on a daily basis. so i mean if something like this happened in new york, god forbid, we would have our own resources that enable us to do a comprehensive search. >> stick with us. stay with me. lots more to discuss with ray kelly. we'll be right back. hey aleigh. hey! carol! update on 171 woodward..... let's other people see what's on your screen. and these are the material studies. the dog was my suggestion. aleigh. aleigh! it's great. but i'm on vacation for another week, remember? oh, right! i'll call you tomorrow! ok.
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...and we inspected his brakes for free. -free is good. -free is very good. [ male announcer ] now get 50% off brake pads and shoes at meineke. we're back with ray kelly, the nypd commissioner, the man who must protect america's number one city and number one target. peter king, congressman peter king says what we need, what this boston marathon attack proves is we need a more aggressive and explicit targeting investigation of ameri america's muslim communities. would you agree with that? >> well, i certainly wouldn't
say community, but we follow leads wherever those leads take us. we've been targeted 16 times, a combination of good work on part of the federal government, nypd and shear luck we haven't been attacked. we will follow wherever the leads take us, irrespective of the community we're talking about. >> but the vast majority of those attacks did come from people who would have been muslim radicals. >> that's correct, yes. >> and as a result of that, the nypd had a program of listening in on mosques, infiltrating communities and last august in court testimony, however, your department asserted or acknowledged that six years of supplying on muslim neighborhoods, eavesdropping on conversations, it did not generate a single lead. >> that's incorrect.
basically, and i know this is somewhat detailed, but we have a stipulation. an agreement that's been in place since 1984 which limits our ability to investigates political entities. in 2002 we petitioned the court to change it it so we could do a more effective job in investigating terrorism. the court did that. and it said we could do three things. we could go to any public meeting that the public is invited to. we can go to any website. and we can do reports that will enable us to have context as to what's going on in a particular area, particular neighborhood, and that's precisely what was done with our reports. so this is the most diverse city in the world. we have the most diverse police department in the world, something i'm very proud of. but it's a complex environment.
8.4 million people. we wanted to know more about the neighborhoods that we were policing. that's the report that we did. the so-called demographics unit since change theed name, but that's what you're reporting about. it was never put in place to generate leads. it was put in place for us to have contextual information. people will say you have people not generating leads. but we generate leads in other ways, but not from that particular unit. >> how important is it it to have the cooperation of the muslim community? because one thing i'm struck by, it is citizens who report things. so the time square bomber, the police was a block away but it was a local vender who tips you off. in this case, it it appears that this guy who got his legs blown off said i want to tell you
something. i saw this guy dropping a bag off. so is it important to have a cooperative relationship between a police department and these communities that you're looking at? >> sure. and we have a strong working relationship with certainly the muslim community. i have a group that i meet with on a regular basis. we have back and forth, give and take. i go to many community meetings. we have very strong working relationships in the communities throughout the city. this is a complex environment, a complex city. i would say our commanders, our community officers are -- and i've been in the police department a long time. our relationships are better now than they have ever been. you'll always have some tension, some friction, it's the nature of police work. you're going to have some give and take.
but we have strong working relationships. and we are proud of that. we work to have that. >> alienated young men, is the easy accessibility of guns and other instruments of destruction something that worries you? >> absolutely. we sent a team to mumbai and got granule information very quick ly. that's what we do. go to the scenes of the terrorist events, bring back information to help us better protect the city. if you look at the events in mumbai, they were done with very simple weapons and clearly we know in this country that the proliferation of weapons, we have 300 million guns abroad in our country. so it's a concern. if you look at the bombs that were used in boston, very simple
to make. it was put out in 2010, that information is all over the internet. very easy to find out how to build a pretty effective bomb. so the proliferation of weapons, handguns, rifles and certainly bomb making and bomb making materials. made out of ordinary household items is very much a concern for us. >> ray kelly, pleasure to have you on sir. >> thank you. we have more on the boston terror attacks with a special panel many just a few moments. but up first, something a little different. what in the world? why bad economic news can sometimes be good economic news. i will explain. with ideas, with ambition. i'm thinking about china, brazil, india. the world's a big place. i want to be a part of it. ishares international etfs. emerging markets and single countries. find out why nine out of ten large professional investors choose ishares for their etfs.
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what is it that's falling? gold. for much of the last decade, the whole world has been a guilded shopping spree. hedge funds poured money into it, chinese horded it, you could even find atms dispensing gold. to give you a sense of the hyster hysteria. if you invested $100 in 2001 it would be worth $700 in 20 o 11, a seven-fold increase a stunning return. why the sell off this week and what does it mean? one theory goes that prices fell because of a slowdown in china and india. but consumers there are taking advantage of the drop in prices to buy more gold. another theory runs that the recent drop is simply a market correction. hast fair. look at a graph of gold prices over the last 30 years. the 20% drop follows a 700% rise. but what is it that precipitated the fall?
there does seem to be a method to the market's madness. investors like gold because they see it as a hedge against inflation. they also think it's a safe haven in a climate of uncertainty. the strongest proponent of gold believe that central banks have been pumping money into the global economy r for decades and this will make money worthless. the only safe invest mement in s view is gold, which has been valued pr thousands of years and exists in limited supply. the total amount of gold in the world would actually fit into two large swimming pools. but gold prices are falling. and that's probably because neither of the doomsday scenarios seems likely. consider the first, inflation. i saw an interesting chart in the latest outlook. it looks a the change in inflation and unemployment during recessions. in the 1970s inflation fell along with the rise in unemployment. that's the usual pattern.
the same happened in the recessions of the 1980s, '90s and early 2000s. but that correlation changed with the most recent crisis. this time steep jumps in unemployment with very limit impact on inflation. part of the reason why this happened is that central banks have taken on an unusually ak vis role in the last few years. the federal reserve and other central banks have pumped vast sums of money into the financial system. under normal market circumstances, that could lead to hyperinflation. but in the current scenario with very slow growth, with wage deflation, it has led to stability. u.s. inflation has had a roughly steady at 2%, lower than the global average. this is a significant policy success and what it it means is that despite the usual risk of inflation, governments still have room to be aggressive in stimulating growth. good news for the economy if we'll take it.
human beings love gold. we covered it beyond all rationality. that's fine for jewelry. as an investment, the market is telling us to be cautious which is good news. when we come back, the boston terror attacks again. the chechen connection, the use of ieds, can we truly protect soft targets with i have a panel of experts who worked at the cia, homeland security, national security council, stay with us. ♪ (train horn) vo: wherever our trains go, the economy comes to life. norfolk southern. one line, infinite possibilities. aaah!
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...and we inspected his brakes for free. -free is good. -free is very good. [ male announcer ] now get 50% off brake pads and shoes at meineke. i want to give you the headlines. massachusetts governor. deval pat patrick said authorities believe there's no longer any imminent threat reled to the boston bombings case. the chairman of the house intelligence committee says the suspected bomber who was killed tamerlan tsarnaev may have become radicalized by islamic extremi extremists when he went to russia last year. let's go to west, texas, now where residents are beginning to pick up the pieces. they are returning home for the
first time since the explosion levelled parts of their small town. wednesday's blast destroyed buildings and took the lives of 14 people and 200 people were injured. in china, rescue workers are searching for at least two dozen people who are still missing after saturday's devastating earthquake. the death toll now stands at 181. more than 11,000 people are injured. now the u.s. geological survey put the earthquake's magnitude at 6.6. look at how it's shaking there. it was so strong it sheared off huge chunks of mown tauntains i region. you can see the panic that it caused. fareed sa car ya cons for you right now. around the world more than 140 people have been reported killed in terror-related attacks since last sunday. and many hundreds more wounded. in iraq alone, at least 77 dead
and 328 wounded in four attacks. at least 30 killed in somalia. they were killed in mull pl attacks in afghanistan. nine dead in pakistan. 16 injured in india. 8 shot to dead by a gunman in kenya. let's remember those victims too as we continue to focus on the boston bombings. joining me now a very intelligent panel on intelligence and terror. in washington philip mudd, stephen flynn, jessica stern served on the national security council staff. and brett stevens won a prize this week for his columns in "the wall street journal."
thank you all. stephen, when you watched the response to what happened in boston, what were your thoughts in terms of our ability to handle these attacks? >> i thought it was impressive and drove home a core realism with terrorist attacks. it's our response because it's local. it's the bystanders, neighbors supported by the local fire department and police and emergency management folks. there's little question that americans took great solace in people's response. that's an important message that we can hand tl and we can bounce back quickly. i teach at northeastern university, a mile from when the attacks went off. what was extraordinary for me was that the city was back up on monday. the trains were moving. students were going to classes. i went to do some interviews and the taxi drop ped me off right n
the corner. free coffee was given out by starbucks. even though there was uncertainty about what happened, the city was insistent on getting back up on its feet. >> what about manhunt? 9,000 people, large parts of the cities shut down to try to find one person. >> one is about the people. folks complied with the request by the governor and mayor and oth others to stay in place as a sense of civic duty. it wasn't because they were terrified. when we look at it, we're going to learn lessons learned. one key is it's easier to turn things off than it is to turn it back on. the time as it it went on clearly there was a struggle. you can't have a major all sort of stopped like we were for that am of time. you have to be careful. if these attacks, as i think they are, are likely to happen on a greater level of frequency, you have to be calibrating the response with the need to be
protective and to try to reduce the risk to the public. >> philip mudd, what would be you be trying to find out from the surviving bomber? what would you be asking him? >> when you look at what america is focused on, what the media is focused on, they are focused on two people. two spiders, in my old world. the real question i would be having would be where is the spider web, if one exist. when we saw plots like this, 9/11, the plot in madrid, the one in london on the subway, there's a spider web around the spiders that include foreign training. in this case, there's not clear there is one, but i would be hunting that today. >> on first impressions, does it appear that this is more like a case of loners self-radicalized or that there's a spider web?
>> this looks very basic. every step of the way from the fact that the individual on the surveillance video doesn't use his hoodie, 52 miles of road of unsecured road they placed the bomb on. they didn't have an after plan. this looks base. ic -- basic to me. this looked to me like columbine as it it did al qaeda. >> when you looked at, you talked to dozens and dozens of terrorists. . you talked to failed suicide bombers. what do you think we should be trying to find out from this young man who survives? >> i think what we often see is somebody who has a very confused identity who gets attracted to a narrative of oppression and humiliation. of course, there's a question why, who introduced them to that
narrative? was it on the internet, was it someone in the neighborhood, was it it in dagestan? is there a spider web or is it just really like columbine? >> do you think that self-radicalization can be as strong and as motivating to commit brutal acts of terror as being trained and tutored by somebody in pakistan? you have been to those camps where you have seen these things. i always assumed that self-radicalization, how radical can reading stuff on the internet make you? >> well, unfortunely, i think that reading stuff on the internet can make you very radical. it doesn't make you an accomplished terrorist. what we see is that people who radicalize themselves, the kind of lone wolf or lone cell that is inspired by a movement but self-trains, they are much harder to catch, but they are also less effective.
>> quick point before we go to break. >> i would say i don't think this is columbine or similar to. these kids are not psychotic. this was preplanned, carefully meditated. i'm reminded of all this of a story of what happens particularly to second generation muslims who don't feel an identity with the home country or the adopted land. that's where radicalization takes place. that's where we need to devote thinking to. >> we're going to talk about that. radicalization, ail nation and how to protect ourselves. don't go away. with screen share. hey aleigh. hey! carol! update on 171 woodward..... let's other people see what's on your screen. and these are the material studies. the dog was my suggestion. aleigh. aleigh! it's great. but i'm on vacation for another week, remember? oh, right!
i'll call you tomorrow! ok. but don't. carol? the blackberry z10 with screen share. powerful communication on the powerful network. verizon. welcnew york state, where cutting taxes for families and businesses is our business. we've reduced taxes and lowered costs to save businesses more than two billion dollars to grow jobs, cut middle class income taxes to the lowest rate in sixty years, and we're creating tax free zones for business startups. the new new york is working creating tens of thousands of new businesses, and we're just getting started. to grow or start your business visit thenewny.com [ construction sounds ] ♪ [ watch ticking ] [ engine revs ] come in. ♪ got the coffee. that was fast. we're outta here. ♪
second generation or first generation or immigrant, but clearly almost always in these cases muslim immigrants, something goes wrong in their immigrant experience. something goes wrong and that becomes one of the triggers that pus them on a path to radicalization. when you were at cia, you must have been studying the london bombers. is there something to make of that? >> a better example is the somali community in place in minneapolis that was energized by what happened including support for intervention. they decided they wanted to become suicide bombers. one thing we have to focus on, not as an american but law enforcement agent, inclusiveness in america as a law enforcement tool. i worried all along that americans would start to say as a result of events like this that they are real americans and other americans. that kind of mentality, if we ever get it, will accelerate
cases of radicalization. kids are going to say, i took the oath, but i'm still not accepted. >> to what extent is one of the dangers here? one can overread too much these maybe two cases of a bad situation. to what extent might the assimilation might have broken down or not functioning as well as it it used to. we prided ourselves on that in europe minority communities were excluded or marginalized but not in the united states. but does this story tell us that maybe we should be paying attention to that. >> compared to what? the assimilation model in the united states works great compared to france or germany or great britain. if you look back in history, the irish, the jews, all kinds of communities who came to the country faced similar kinds of problems. and by the way, each of them had
moments of radicalization. there was a large contingent of jewish americans who became hard lined communists. it was a real problem. the truth is that all that said and done, you find a pattern where americans are tolerant and sensitive to the fact that the acts of a handful of people does not suggest something about the entire community. arab americans, muslim americans are better assimilated in the united states than any other country. >> what do we do ab the ideology? so this happens in every community, but in muslim communities, if you get alienated, if you go crazy, there is an off-the-shelf ideology you can pick up off the internet of violence and jihad. >> there's a question why is one
kid susceptible to that narrative and not another. it's a result of some form of humiliation. i think the community needs to ban together, but we also need to remember that 35% of those who attempt to carry out attacks allegedly in the name of islam are converts. we're not going to find these people in the muslim community. >> how do you deal with this issue of looking for people? the fbi interviewed this guy. there was nothing particularly remarkable. he seemed to have flirted with radical islam but not violence in any way. should there have been a tip off of some kind? >> there's something ha i think commission ee eer kelly has donl in new york is to have a better relationship between the law enforcement and the community
itself. and very interesting in this ca case, while there was the house-to-house effort to locate the final bomber, the tip off came once it was okay to leave the house. the owner looked out and saw the plastic tarp on his boat in his driveway was amuck and he provided the tip. citizens are key in engaging the community. there's some tension there. right after the 9/11, the focus was on putting together a more robust national security intelligence apparatus with some involvement with state and local. >> bush said often we have to fight them over here so we don't have to fight them here. >> clearly with the recognition that these kinds of attacks are so much more difficult to prevent in that the response is local, investing local seems to be key. we put national treasure into the war overseas. we have to think about e reallocating that to capable here at home.
>> when all is said and done, the way events played out in boston, as tragic as they are, are really a model in terms of the way the people of boston reacted, in the way that the agencies of government, local and federal, did. these were two guys with a bunch of extra pipe bombs and extra other types of explosives. and they tragically killed another police officer, nearly killed another one. but it it ended as well as we'd like. that has to say something about the quality of our responses. it's very easy in hindsight to say we could have done this and this differently. it was a model for how something like this should go down. >> a last thought on how we engage citizens. how do we better protect ourselves and use the virtues of a free society? >> two things i think about. one that's happening already. first, the engagement with
especially immigrant communities can't come at the back end of the investigation. the front end has to be law enforcement going to talk to people. making people understand that the security services they see here are not like the security services they saw at home. the second, and this may sound radical, i would be considering calling the mother of those terrorists. there's four grieving parents in boston who lost children. there's a fifth in chechnya. i'm not saying this because it represents a velvet glove. it's a steel fist. we're going to bring everybody under the tent, including who lost one kid and might lose another. we all grieve together as a family. >> jessica, what would you ask this young man? what would be the first question you'd ask? >> of course, i'd want to know all about how he was radicalized. i'd want to know all about his life story. but to me what's very important is to make sure that his story gets out there because i think
kids sometimes romanticize the life. . and if we can get former individuals to tell the story of what it's like, it's not remotely glamorous and many end up regret iting what we did. we need to publicize those stories. >> i would hope that he goes off to florence, colorado, for life in supermax prison. >> no death penalty? >> i would consider that as well. i remember seeing up close a suicide bombing in israel when i was living there. the carnage is unbelievable. what happens when you put nails and ball bearings into a bomb and you slide through flesh is one of most horrifying sights in the world. people need to understand before we get to the part about understanding what makes these kids who they are, people have to understand the kind of damage and carnage they inflicted on human beings. >> thank you all. when we come back, margaret
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stay tuned and we'll tell you the correct answer. go to cnn.com/fareed for more of the gps challenge and lots of analysis. you can also follow us on twitter and facebook. remember you can go to itunes.co itunes.com/fa red pop this week's book of the week is called "the way of the knife." 9/11 changed america, but what it it really changed was the cia, which was tasked with prosecuting the war on terror. it tells the story from how the agency went from focus and analysis to interrogations and assassination. it reads like a thriller, well worth getting. now for the last look. this week lawmakers in new zealand did something remarkable after a vote. there wasn't a mass walkout. no. the place didn't erupt into fists.
the members didn't call each other names. instead when a measure passed that would make new zealand the 30th nation to recognize gay marriage the parliament e erupted in song. ♪ a special song, a love song. one solo voice started spontaneously and then almost all joined in. perhaps it it might serve to remind the u.s. congress of what i think is the most memorable time they all sang together and the unity and sense of purpose they felt on september 11th, 2001. ♪ god bless america >> the correct
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