tv Anthony Bourdain Parts Unknown CNN July 7, 2013 4:00pm-5:01pm PDT
>> she wants to fix local government one smart phone app at a time. >> this saturday, 2:30 eastern on the "next list." top of the hour, i'm don lemon. you're in the cnn newsroom. the passenger jet that crashed yesterday was going way too slow and flying way too low. that's what federal officials say at this stage of the investigation. you'll hear that in a moment. first i want you to watch this video. it's exclusive to cnn of the asiana airlines 777, the moment when something went very wrong. >> look how his nose is up in the air. oh, my god, it's an accident. >> you're filming it, too. oh, no! >> oh, my god. >> oh, my god, you're filming it. >> what happened?
>> oh, my god. >> the plane broke into pieces and started burning with more than 300 people on board. i want you to listen to what the ntsb boss says they learned so far from the cockpit recordings. >> a call from one of the crew members to increase speed was made approximately seven seconds prior to impact. during the approach, the data indicate that the throttles were at idle and air speed was slowed below the target air speed. >> here are the casualty figures right now. 182 people were rushed to hospitals around san francisco. six of them are in critical condition. two teenagers who were on the plane died, but amazingly, more than 100 people walked away without a scratch. i want you to see and hear the video fred hayes shot yesterday.
he is just out walking with his family and has no idea he is about to witness a disaster. watch and listen. >> look at him. yeah, he does. look at that one. look how his nose is up in the air. oh, my god. oh, it's an accident. >> you're filming it, too. >> oh, no! >> oh, my god. >> oh, my god, you're filming it. >> what happened? >> oh, my god. oh, my god. >> you filmed the whole thing. >> oh, lord have mercy. >> that video will certainly get the attention of the ntsb crash investigators. no doubt it will help them
answer their key questions exactly what happened. former inspector general mary schiavo is here from the u.s. department of transportation and joins me live in new york. pilot and aviation attorney dan rose joins us also. what does that video tell you? >> the video as it's approaching, you can't judge the air speed so much. it was very low. as the ntsb told us it was low and slow. once it hit the sea wall you can see where the pieces of the plane were coming off. then it ran up over the edge and its nose went into the air. it had gone off the runway and hit a sloping part, giving it momentum or continuing to lose parts of the land gearing or engines. very, very important video for the ntsb. i think they will be very interested in this video. >> the question was raised earlier about, look at it pitching right there.
many people, a number of witnesses before i ask you that question, a number of witnesses said we saw a cartwheel. how could that happen? how could a plane do a cartwheel? then it lands flat on the belly. you said it's a good thing it went to its belly. >> absolutely. there was another plane in sioux city, iowa, that did cartwheel. that would certainly increase the number of casualties, increase the chance of a devastating fire, slow down the ability for people to get out. the fact although the nose went up and one wing went up, it settled back on the belly of the plane was certainly a very important factor for the surv e survivability of this crash. very important break. >> as we are looking at this, again, there have been people asking why not, why aren't there cameras on runways so we could capture moments like this if there are emergencies, near misses, any kind of activity that happens on runways? >> the idea of cameras both in
the airport and on the planes are both feasible and possible. there are cameras at the airport. they cover the perimeters. there will be some footage from the tower and from the airport. the ntsb will be getting that. i suspect we will see some of that in the days to come. cameras on the plane have been highly controversial issue since september 11, 2001. people said if you had cameras on the plane you could better know, the pilot could know, people on the ground could know what's going on the plane. there have been pushback. some pilots unions said the's an invasion of privacy or it's too intrusive in the work force. other people said they don't want to do that. there are always some stories that some airlines do have them. i'm not going to name it because they might not have it any more. but one u.s. carrier said they did put cameras on after september 11, 2001. there is a company that puts them on the tail to capture the top of the plane and better inspect it before your flight
each day. >> dan rose, you're a pilot, a former military pilot. most military planes have some sort of, don't they have video cameras on them? >> not all of them. it is coming about that there are examples of cameras being on top of the tail as mary pointed out. you've seen it on some airlines, i'm sure you sit down and see the view on the front of the plane. small planes fly around with go pros. everyone seems to have a video came rah available in the plane or on the plane somewhere. it's very feasible and that would be critical information to have in an accident like this and many others where you actually see from either the pilot's vantage point or behind the plane what the aircraft is actually doing. >> dan, i should point out you are a pilot. you're an aviation attorney.
as a pilot, let's look at, analyze this video. you see them making the approach here. it's hard to tell. does it appear he's coming in too low? >> yeah. it seems very clear. in fact, the witness who, i don't think he is a professional accident reconstructionist, watched planes come in from time to time and was filming this, even to him it appeared off yus there was something different about this approach and it was low. he could see the nose of the plane pitched up, which means the plane is getting slow. just from this video alone you can see the two critical parameters of what went wrong with this approach. it came in too low and the plane got too slow. >> what are the key points from the ntsb chair that stand out to
you as she is talking about the flight data recorder and the cockpit recorder? what stands out to you? >> obviously, it's great we have good and full information. i would expect that with this crash in how the plane landed and came intact. you're going to hear, i think the cvr will be more telling. the flight data recorder will give us the parameters of what the aircraft was doing in terms of air speed more precisely, what the engines were doing. that's very important. at the end of the day, what will be critical here is going to be what was the cockpit interaction like? what were the pilots and first officer and there should have been two crews up there. talking about as they commenced this approach, during the
approach and what, if anything, was said in the last seconds? if nothing was said, that's also critical. that means somebody wasn't doing their job. >> to both of you, i'm getting this from a pilot. he says you can see the tail section fail when it reaches the nose of the taxiing aircraft. it collapsed right there where i said it did. the engineers at boeing are going to care about that. i'm sure the families of those girls are going to care about how their children ended up on the runway. asiana will possibly, boeing will carry legal liability for this. what do you think? >> well, that depends. it's going to depend upon what the sequence was when they hit that sea wall and how fast they hit that sea wall. planes are put together and assembled like other machinery. and the force they hit the sea wall when the pilot or probably the pilot not flying called for a go around and they put additional throttle in, you
would have had more force with that plane. it's a tremendous impact. they will certainly evaluate the stresses and forces on that tail to see if it was manufactured correctly. the accident in sioux city, for example, had a problem with the aft bulkhead as did japan airlines 123 the largest single crash in history. that will remain to be seen. first and foremost, i think pri primary cause will be they were low and slow and hit the cement wall. >> these new pictures in from the national transportation safety board when you see the seats here. you see things falling from the ceiling. the oxygen masks. >> right. >> what does this tell you? >> it tells me flight cabin interiors have improved. in older days, 15 years ago when you worked an accident, the seats would be collapsed on top of each other. certainly, that is legal
liability for the carrier. at that time though it was legal for boeing and airbus to make the seats that weren't as heavy on withstanding the g-forces. now they have to be tougher. materials must be less flammable in that flame. if people had their belts latched down tightly because the seats didn't collapse on each other, they had a better chance not to have close head injuries on wounds that could be quite debilitating. >> thank you, dan rose and mary schiavo. we are following every development coming out of san francisco. we have live reports with the latest next. plus, we'll talk to a man who was onboard that plane. another fatal tragedy has shaken a town in canada this weekend. a train derail setting off a huge fire. some people, they said, may have been vaporized. now the search for the missing is on. the great outdoors...
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we just got new images from the ntsb of the crash scene. i'll ask our control room to show some of the photos as i relay some of the information from the briefing. if one of these pictures sticks out in any way, feel free to interrupt me. i'll tell what you was relayed. a lot of information has been gleaned from both the flight data recorder and the cockpit voice recorder. the bottom line here is that flight crew knew there were some serious issues in the seconds from impact. seven seconds before the impact, they called for an increase in speed. they knew there was not enough speed to make a successful landing. six seconds before the impact, they have what you call a stick shaker meaning the plane was about to stall there may not have been enough lift which would suggest big-time trouble. 1 1/2 seconds before impact they call for the landing to be aborted so they wanted to go up
into the air, circle around and try to make a successful landing. of course, they didn't have enough time. want to toss to the ntsb chairperson who offers a few more details. take a look. >> a call from one of the crew members to increase speed was made approximately 7 seconds prior to impact. during the approach, the data indicate that the throttles were at idle and air speed was slowed below the target air speed. >> one of the questions asked to deborah hersman was, all this information, when you look at it in its totality, does it suggest there was some kind of pilot error? at this point, they are not willing to go there. they are saying they are going to be looking at all aspects of this investigation. they will look at everything. right now, they are not ready to
make any conclusions. at this point, one would think they are going to be looking at pilot error very closely. >> dan simon at san francisco international airport, thank you very much. two teenage girls died in the crash. more than 300 people survived. some walked away unharmed while 182 were taken to hospitals. the most critical are at san francisco general hospital. the city's only level 1 trauma center. kyung lah joins us from outside the hospital. what is the latest there? >> we got the latest briefing in the hospital. what we are hearing is out of the 53 patients taken here in the immediate aftermath of that plane crash, there are now only 17 people who remain in this particular hospital. the worst of the worst came here. six are critical. only one is a child. extraordinary numbers if you consider what all these passengers went through. what doctors are concerned with
is some of the head trauma, some fractures, bumps and bruises, but also spinal crush injuries that left two patients paralyzed. at this point they don't know what the prognosis is for those two particular patients. we have spoken to patients, their family members as they've come in and out of the hospital. one woman who was seated toward the rear of the plane in the 40th row describes her harrowing escape. the plane hitting the runway and then the toilet that was two rows ahead of her completely disappearing. there was a hole left in the plane. that's how she got out of the plane. here what is she told us. >> how difficult was it to get off the plane? >> it's not very difficult because we sit near the plane tail which is two rows to the big hole. it's broken, yes. it's a big hole.
the passengers near the plane tail just walk out from this hole. >> so what was beyond that hole? it was ground. she literally stepped right off the plane on to ground, carrying away her 4-year-old child. that child remains in the hospital with a broken leg. >> kyung lah, thank you. much more on the crash of flight 214 straight ahead. there is other news, including racial tensions in the george zimmerman trial. from the criticism surrounding the prosecutor's star witness to what is on trial here. the killing of a young black man. my next guest says race means everything in this trial. re. [ whirring ] [ dog barks ] i want to treat more dogs. ♪ our business needs more cases. [ male announcer ] where do you want to take your business? i need help selling art. [ male announcer ] from broadband to web hosting
now from virginia beach along with the attorney for the prosecution's star witness rachel jeantel. in your piece you says zimmerman's innocence rests on the notion of trayvon's criminalality. in this country, it's not that difficult to convince six people of the criminality of a 17-year-old black boy. why do you think this? >> do believe zimmerman's story, because to me it reads like a very cartoonish version of what a 17-year-old black boy would say and do in this situation. i think to believe that trayvon martin was to jump out of the bushes and to approach george zimmerman and strike him in the face without any type of provocation sounds to me like you have to believe that there is an inherent criminality and inherent violence in 17-year-old black boys that you see.
>> zimmerman kept following trayvon martin even after a 911 operator told him not to. what are the racial implications for that? mychal? >> the operator didn't explicitly tell him not to follow but said they didn't need him to. i think george zimmerman -- again, this is my opinion -- but after identifying trayvon martin was a young black man that he felt his neighborhood was in more danger than the police could handle at that specific time. and that he needed to assures himself and his neighborhood they would be protected. do you believe black manhood is on trial here? >> of course it is. people have a tendency to want to believe that young black men are growing up in these urban neighborhoods to be violent. that is not the case.
they want to make it appear trayvon martin comes in a broken home, lacks parental guidance and youthful guidance and therefore, was more apt to be the aggressor in the situation with mr. zimmerman, without any evidence to support that inference. >> the thing is about black manhood being on trial here, this case is about a child, a teenager who was killed. and someone on trial for killing him. this is about the killing of a person regardless of race. >> i agree. this is about the death of a young man without regard to race. the media has been involved. what precipitated this was the impression that there were two different justice systems. some way had mr. zimmerman been black and had mr. martin been
white, the situation would have been different. he would have been arrested at moment's notice soon as the police would have arrived at the scene and saw a young white man laying on the ground. and mr. zimmerman was standing with a firearm in his hands, he would have been arrested. so you have the impression there are two different justice systems which is not far-fetched. we have been listening to that over the years. there seems to be a difference with regard to how certain individuals are treated within the justice system. i can understand why there has been criticism of the way this case has been handled and why he was allowed to be released without being charged with an offense. >> that's been debated in the media. what is on trial here is the moment where there was an altercation between george zimmerman and trayvon martin. no one knows for sure what happened except for two people. trayvon martin, who is no longer
with us, and george zimmerman who is on trial now. there has not been much talk about race in this particular case. that's been talked in the media, in the court of public opinion, but not in the courtroom. >> i think what is going to happen, the jury has to make a decision with regard to the animus mr. zimmerman supposedly had with regard to african-americans. when they listen to the 9/11 calls and decide whether or not second degree murder had been established, they are going to be looking for some racial animus by mr. zimmerman against african-americans. they have to establish ill will, depraved mind by mr. zimmerman. if they can establish that by showing he had an affinity toward african-americans to go after trayvon martin because of his race, they may have to
establish that. >> we'll see very soon because it's all coming to an end, possibly this week. mychal denzel-smith and rod vereen, thank you. 19 brave firefighters who lost their lives are remembered. more on the emotional day in arizona next. [ male announcer s i'm so happy you're home dance. that's real love. and so is giving him real tasty food. but some leading dog foods add sugar, dyes, or even artificial preservatives. [ dog whimpers ] but now there's new so good! from iams. with 100% real wholesome ingredients and none of those other things. now that's real love. so is that. new so good! see what's really in your dog's bowl at iams.com. little carrot. little bit of hummus. lonely wing... well we have got the perfect match for you. of course you can't beat the classics.
back to the crash of flight 214 in just moments. other news quickly here. we are learning details about a major train accident near the canadian/u.s. border. a runaway train pulling 72 gallons of fuel oil derailed and exploded yesterday. flames from the burning cars spread to the small canadian town. five people were killed. today canadian prime minister stephen harper toured the town. 40 people are still missing. now to a symbolic and somber journey home for the 19 firefighters killed nearly a week ago fighting a wildfire in yarnell, arizona. today their bodies are in a procession that is traveling more than 90 miles from phoenix where they were initially taken to prescott, the team's home base. nick valencia covering the story for us. >> reporter: it's certain to be
an emotional day in arizona as those 19 firefighters, their caskets are carried along in a public procession from the phoenix coroner's office where they've been since they died last week. they'll make their way along a very special route through yarnell where those firefighters lost their lives on their way home to prescott, arizona. those 19 firefighters, part of an elite hotshots, the granite mountain hotshots unit. they are on the front line. they battle fires and stay when other firefighters leave. they were creating a barrier when the yarnell fire took an erratic shift in winds and trapped them killing all but one of the group's members. this is a very public dedication for these firefighters. there are also hot shot units that are going to be paying their respects along this public procession. a lot of firefighters leave behind small children, wives and one story in particular is very moving. one firefighter leaves behind his pregnant fiancee.
they were expecting their first child this fall. of course, there are other public dedications that will happen late they are week. a memorial service will happen where all eyes will again be on prescott, arizona. vice president joe biden is expected to pay his respects and be in attendance. firefighters losing their lives last week. the deadliest day for firefighters since the september 11 attacks. >> nearly the entire department of a town of west texas died when a fertilizer plant exploded in april. last night the texas rangers dedicated the game to the family and survivors. they also raised $140,000 to help the town recover and rebuild. cnn has exclusive video of yesterday's deadly airliner crash in san francisco. it is alarming to watch,
especially when you know what happens a few seconds later. i'm going to play the video and talk live to a man who was on that plane and walked away from the crash and the fire. he's alive and thankful. ♪ ♪ [ male announcer ] some things are designed to draw crowds. ♪ ♪ others are designed to leave them behind. ♪ the all-new 2014 lexus is. it's your move. just by talking to a helmet. it grabbed the patient's record before we even picked him up. it found out the doctor we needed was at st. anne's. wiggle your toes. [ driver ] and it got his okay on treatment from miles away. it even pulled strings with the stoplights. my ambulance talks with smoke alarms
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cool, dry, no mess. stay cool with gold bond. welcome back, everyone, to cnn's coverage of the crash of flight 214. we have new video that you'll only see here on cnn. it's the final seconds of asiana flight 214. watch. this is fred hayes taking video of planes taking off and landing yesterday when the boeing 777 hit the ground, nearly flipped over and started burning. i want you to listen to the head of the ntsb today. she says the cockpit recorder gives no indication that anything was going wrong. >> the approach proceeds normally as they descend. there is no discussion of any
aircraft anomalies or concerns with the approach. a call from one of the crew members to increase speed was made approximately seven seconds prior to impact. the sound of the stick shaker occurs approximately four seconds prior to impact. a call to initiate a go around occurred 1.5 seconds before impact. >> look at that plane. on the air field really because it's no longer on the runway. we'll talk more about the priorities here and exactly what is going on. the former inspector general for the u.s. transportation
department mary schiavo joins us now. 182 people rushed to hospitals around the city, six in critical condition. two teenagers who were on that plane died. their bodies were found on the air field, on the runway. you're looking at that video. each time you see it, i see you looking at it. do you learn new things every time you look at the video. >> yes, you do. you learn new things every time you hear the ntsb speak or any additional little piece of information from that cockpit voice recorder and data recorder will give you new information and new insight at just every break. when you look at the plane and hear the ntsb, what people don't realize the ntsb also has responsibilities for those passengers. they have a lot of rules. it's called the family assistance act. when i worked in cases as a lawyer, i have to follow that closely because the ntsb has a lot of things they do for passengers people don't see. they make sure they get briefed,
they have hotels and food and care. they have care teams in place to help take care of them. ntsb oversees that. the airline has to provide services to the passengers, but the real teeth in that law is with the ntsb. that's all federal regulation in the united states. they have duties for the passengers, in addition to the duties they perform going through the wreckage and gathering all the data and analyzing that cockpit voice recorder. the ntsb is unbelievably busy on the site with things the public doesn't see. >> the chairwoman was speaking in that last bit of sound you heard there. it was from the cockpit voice recorder. there are two hours, very good quality. those two hours include the last part of that. they were clear to ran runway 28-l. the flaps were at 30 degrees.
gear was down. 137 knots below that everything was normal. then they call for an increase of speed seven seconds prior to impact. then the sound of the shaker? >> stick shaker. >> four seconds prior to impact. then about 1.5 seconds before impact they call for a go around. then after she spoke about the cockpit voice recorder, she went on to talk about the flight data recorder. let's listen. >> during the approach, the data indicate that the throttles were at idle and air speed was slowed below the target air speed. the throttles are advanced a few seconds prior to impact, and the engines appear to respond normally.
>> as you listen to that in lehman's terms because people are wondering, the throttle and all of that. people have a general understanding. in layman's terms, what is she saying? >> they were not paying close attention or watching closely enough their air speed. they allowed it to get way below what it should be on approach. had they been flying in on auto pilot they would have gotten air speed warnings. you have alarms and warnings. the plane would have increased it. when the stick shaker went off, what that is, it literally shakes and vibrates. there's been much research how do you get the pilot's attention? if a stick shaker goes off on a commercial flight, the thought was you have to get their attention. that's why it shakes and literally vibrates. you must increase air speed. your only other option is putting the nose down which they could not do because they were also too low.
they had run out of options at that point. by doing a throttle at idle landing, long before i was inspector general, long before i was an aviation lawyer, i was a pilot. we used to do landings like this in competition teams. we would throttle back and try to land so slow and feather light right on the numbers. pilots like to do that because it gives the passenger a quiet, safe, wonderful landing. there might have been reasons they might have been going so slowly. once you get those warnings, you have to increase the throttle. the stick shake wore have been alarming to them. >> that means, warning, you are in imminent danger of stalling. >> exactly. the stick shaker means you are in danger of stalling and losing control of the flight, which is the lingo way to say you are in danger of crashing. >> she said the engines appear to respond normally. >> that says they weren't having engine problems. that is a big issue. the engines, many things can go
wrong. it's san francisco over water, but they responded normally. there wasn't a problem. >> thank you. we'll continue on. we'll let you hear more from the ntsb. then you will interpret it for us and for our viewers, as well. thank you, mary schiavo. we appreciate that. coming up, her father was on the plane. he walked away, then went to the hospital. we are hearing he may be back in the hospital. she is going to join us on the other side of the break to explain what is going on with her father and many other people who were injured in this particular crash. how much protein does your dog food have? 18 percent? 20? new purina one true instinct has 30. active dogs crave nutrient-dense food. so we made purina one true instinct. learn more at purinaone.com
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like so many othepeople, eu rah has stories to tell his grandchildren. his daughter joins us. so far i have spoken to you on the phone. i have not been able to see new person. how are you doing and how is your dad? >> hi, don. good to be here. he's doing good compared to most of the other passengers. he walked away with scratches and bruises. he did go into emergency about two hours ago.
nothing serious, but he is in emergency right now. >> it's not related to the crash or do we know? >> it is related to the crash. it's nothing serious from what i know right now. right now doctors are doing continuous tests and just checking up on him. just doing a full, you know, body-check. i don't know the details yet right now. >> what did your day say his first thoughts were when this started to happen? >> i'm sorry? >> what were his first thoughts when this crash happened? >> so as soon as he had, the crash had happened, i wasn't able to get hold of him for a while. it was traumatizing. you could only think of the
worst. i can only imagine what the other families were feeling at that time. i was just praying and i know my family was praying, as well. it was a good 30, 40 minutes before i was able to get hold of him after finding out about the crash. >> have you been able to see the video of the crash that the gentleman fred hayes shot and has been airing on cnn? >> i haven't. i would rather not, not right now. maybe later on. before i knew he was okay, there was a long waiting time when i was actually on my balcony. my vantage point was the crash. i could see the line of fire trucks and medics. i could see the smoke. watching it from my balcony with my own eyes was just enough. i was sweating because i didn't know if he was okay. >> it's too much for you right now. >> yeah.
>> your dad is a remarkable man. he had the presence of mind to take pictures. >> yes. other than the pictures which i'm sure a lot of people have probably seen by now, after the crash when i was in the lounge with the passengers, he was able to tell me more indepth of what happened inside. he did mention the amount of heroism that took place. he mentioned one flight attendant, a physically tiny woman helping men twice her size evacuate. he said the asiana staff was so professional. of course, they were in tears and just as shocked, but they were professional. passengers were helping passengers.
there was one flight attendant that was trapped. the inflightable chute was inside the plane. one woman was trapped. as soon as they landed, he saw her leg hanging in the air. he and another gentleman and her husband tried to rescue her. they couldn't deflate the chute because there are no sharp objects on the plane. finally a gentleman was able to free her. the passengers were cooperative. the flight attendants and crew were just as attentive. >> they are the first responders
in this situation. before i let you go, many times when things like this happen, the passengers will develop a certain pond. has your dad been able or are you able to speak >> my dad tried to get hold of the authorities or just the airport to check on members on the flight. i overheard him on the phone with another gentleman he was trying to rescue the flight attendant and saying, are you okay? are you home? are you safe? are you at the hospital? what is going on? during the time i was relocated with my father, i happened to have another family friend on that same flight. they've been doing well. it's been traumatic for them.
>> first thing you said to your dad when you saw him? >> we didn't say anything. i saw him across the room and ran to him. i don't remember what we said first. we were both really happy. we were relieved. it was six, seven hours after the crash. we were waiting for that moment a long time. >> eunice, thank you so much. our best to your father. give him our regard. we are thinking about him and everyone aboard that flight and all the family members involved. thank you. >> thank you. appreciate it.
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but for all these symptoms, you also take kaopectate. new kaopectate caplets -- soothing relief for all those symptoms. kaopectate. one and done. zim don lemon in the cnn newsroom. we have so much information to give you throughout the hour here on cnn. we have new information from the national transportation and safety board. we're going to have mary schiavo fwid us through that information
point by point as the spokeswoman gives us new information. we also have new pictures in from the national transportation safety board that shows that plane up close both outside and inside the cabin of that plane. we also have exclusive video to show you of that plane coming in for a crash-landing, so stick with us. we're going to get you through all of this this hour here on cnn. the passenger jet that crashed and burned on landing in san francisco was going way too slow flying way too low. that's what federal officials say at the stage of this investigation. at this stage right now. you're going to hear that for yourself in a moment, but, first, i want you to watch this video. it's exclusive to cnn. it's of the asiana airline triple 7. it's the moment when something went terribly wrong. >> oh, my god.
it's an accident. oh, my god. >> oh, no. oh, my god. oh, my god. >> the plane that broke into pieces and started burning with more than 300 people on board. i want you to listen to what the ntsb boss says that they have learned so far from the cockpit recordings. >> a call from one of the crew members to increase speed was made approximately seven seconds prior to impact. during the approach, the data indicate that the throttles were at idle and air speed was slowed below the target air speed. >> we are going to walk you through this point by point very shortly here on cnn to make sure everyone understands exactly what happened and what we know at this point ith
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