tv Crimes of the Century CNN July 13, 2013 6:00pm-7:01pm PDT
now. and so there are two families at home, and thousands of people who are part of that family around the country anticipating this and millions of people around the country and the world trying to figure out what these six women will do in all of this. i'm don lemon here in sanford, florida, with cnn's special coverage of the george zimmerman trial. any minute now we may get a big clue to how close we could be to a possible verdict. that is when the court resumes and the six-woman jury must get specific about its questions on manslaughter. here is judge debra nelson giving the court's response to the jury's manslaughter question which was apparently too vague. >> answer that has been agreed upon by both your counsel and
the state is as follows. the court cannot engage in general discussions, but may be able to address a specific question regarding clarification of the instructions regarding manslaughter. if you have a specific question, please submit it. is that acceptable to you, sir? >> yes, your honor. >> acceptable to the state? >> yes, your honor. >> acceptable to counsel for the defense? >> yes, your honor. >> thank you. >> all right. so as we have been saying, george zimmerman's entire future in the hands of that six-woman jury which has been deliberating for 15 hours. and if we come back out live now, and give me a shot of that courthouse, the seminole county courthouse, if you will, which is right behind us, over our shoulder here, there it is right there, and gathered on the front lawn, in the courtyard, of this courthouse, several hundred people. people are starting to gather here. we have seen the parking lot filling up here. the helicopters are overhead. people are anticipating
something happening and something happening very soon. even our people who are inside of this courthouse, our martin savidge who's been reporting from this from the very beginning inside the courthouse, and also our producers who are inside are saying they're moving the media around, not exactly sure what's going on, but they have been moving the media around. we're hearing now from our sunny hostin that this judge will let a jury go until 3:00 a.m. that we may be here live on the air until 3:00 a.m. if the jury decides to deliberate that long. something is definitely happening here. there's an anticipation of something happening here. the jury came out as we said just about two hours ago and said, hey, we have a question. that is a very significant development. and if you talk to the legal experts who are been surrounding me here all afternoon, all evening, on cnn, they will tell you that what that probably
means, probably, and, again, probably means is that the jury may have moved beyond second-degree murder and is going down the jury instructions in order, may are gone past that and past self-defense and now they have a question about manslaughter. and that's where we are this evening. so joining me now with all of this is sunny hostin, she is a cnn legal analyst and she is a former prosecutor. also mark nejame is a respected attorney and he is a cnn legal analyst. paul callan is a former prosecutor and a cnn analyst. also faith jenkins is a former prosecutor. holly hughes a former prosecutor as well. so let's talk about this. i want to go to paul callan first. i am being told we're going to go to martin savidge, inside the courthouse. martin, what do you know? >> don, can you hear me? i'm inside the courthouse. sometimes the reception here is
just really difficult, but we're back in the waiting game, i'm afraid. you know, we had the anticipation of what you described, but the question came in then the question that actually went back crafted by both the defense and prosecution, we thought maybe during that dinner break that the jurors would then more define the question and send it back into the courtroom so we all gathered outside courtroom 5d at around 8:15 only to have a deputy come out and say, no, the judge is not opening up the courtroom, instead you go back down to the first floor in what is the waiting area and that's where we are. so we've gone from high anticipation back to the general sort of background level of waiting. and i think like many people, you know, there may be about two dozen, three dozen of us inside the courthouse. we know there are many more outside the courthouse and of course across this country, there people waiting to find out what this jury is going to either decide or come back with on a question, and we don't know. so right now it's just empty
hallways and a lot of coin-machine operated coffee and a lot of waiting. >> a lot of waiting. martin, you've been doing this for a long time. i don't want you to speculate here, but just talk to me about your instinct. do you get the feeling that something is happening? not in a sense that there is a verdict coming, but a sense that there is is is an anticipation of something, either an answer to the jury's question or something is imminent at this point? >> well, i mean, i would love to tell you that i've got some marvelous insight. i think at this particular point it's just too risky to try to really get too deep in the weeds of speculation. i think that what we do know is this, and it's obvious. they worked through lunch. they had a working dinner. they've gone now into the evening hours, well beyond what would have been the normal cutoff time.
so clearly they're making progress, or they believe thereat they've reached such a critical juncture they need to keep working. they are. the judge said she will let them drive the train, in other words, it's the jury that decides their hours, how late they want to go, if they want to go all night or call it quits. right now they're going as late as they want to go. will they respond to that question i think is what many people want to know. in other words, are they just going to let it lie and figure it out on their own? has something else developed inside their deliberation room? are they at some sort of point where maybe a majority, or they have one holdout and the critical question of manslaughter is what's hanging in the balance? there are so many things when you wait inside of this building that you can speculate, you can fantasize, you can wonder, but the truth is only those six jurors know for sure, and until we get another question or some sort of reaction from them and when we hear it from the judge,
it is just really trying to guess. >> well said, martin savidge. thank you very much. martin savidge is inside the courthouse. the picture on the left is actually inside the specific courtroom where that jury will return with the fate of george zimmerman. could be at any moment now. on the right is, that's the outside shot of the seminole county courthouse and just in front of that, where you see the thing that says zimmerman jury deliberating just to the right of thereat, that's where people are starting to gather. just so you know. here is what that jury can decide. put it up on the screen so i can read it off the screen. the jury has to decide on several things here. they could decide on several things here. guilty of second-degree murder. that's a possible outcome. or guilty of manslaughter. or they could find him not guilty which means an acquittal or there could be a hung jury which would, of course, mean a mistrial. and so where we are now is a
jury, we have a jury who has some question, has some concern or possibly some confusion about manslaughter. let's put the information about manslaughter up, and i want to bring in our paul callan who has been really breaking down what the jury should know and how they should decide on manslaughter, and manslaughter, the prosecutors must prove, paul callan, that trayvon martin is dead. that is an obvious. that's a given. number two, that zimmerman intentionally committed an act or acts that caused the death of martin, and you go on to say to make it even simpler than that, how so? >> well, there's only one thing left. i mean, we know those two things are true, don't we? there's no dispute about it. there's only one thing left, and that is without justification. in other words, that self-defense was not a justifiable defense.
so they would only get to -- that's really only that third question, the self-defense question, and it's manslaughter. but you know, don, i just want to back up for a minute and talk about lawyers and what these lawyers now, the defense lawyers and prosecutors, they're pacing around wondering, analyzing the jury questions and they're saying the same things that we are, but there's an alternative theory here that could be going on, and it's why lawyers are so often wrong when they analyze jury questions. this could be, for instance, that the jury has decided to acquit george zimmerman but one or two jurors are holding out and are saying, hey, we think it's manslaughter. and the other jurors are saying, all right, well, we're going to have the judge read it back to you and explain it to you, it's not manslaughter. and so they submit the question to the judge, the judge says it's not specific enough, and now you're going to have a readback. that happens quite frequently, and a lot of times a question is asked and you focused on it, you think the jury is going one way, and they surprise you with
something completely different. one other thing i want to say about the question, what really happens in a courtroom. when if they come back to the judge now and they have cleaned up the question and gotten specific, we're going to have a big delay because what's going to happen next is the judge is going to call the attorneys up and they're all going to have to agree on what she should say in the jury in response to the more specific question, and that's a very carefully craft answer because it has to be consistent with florida law so an appellate court won't throw out the conviction if it happens. now, maybe the jury abandons the question. maybe the four jurors go back to the two jurors and the two jurors say, okay, forget about it, let's just continue with deliberation. and i've seen questions abandoned by juries sometimes in jury deliberations. so you're dealing with six complicated human beings. a lot of very, very smart jurors
who are looking at this fact pattern. they're asking good questions. and we're trying to probe their minds, but it's real tough to be accurate in this area. >> all right. paul callan, thank you very much. standby. i have a question that i want to pose to my legal panel here, and specifically to holly hughes. as we get later into the evening, whose favor does this play into? the prosecution or the defense? the answer on the other side of the break.
ground. self-defense. profiling. racial profiling. racism. and other words that we can't repeat on television. and it's all playing out right now at the seminole county courthouse in sanford, florida. where on the fifth floor of this courthouse, the fate of george zimmerman, the neighborhood watchman, could be made at any moment now as the jury is deliberating. they have been deliberating now for 12 hours and 15 minutes. they started at 9:00 a.m. eastern time and they are still at it. working through lunch, working through dinner, and i am told by one of my colleagues here, sunny hostin, they could go as late as 3:00 a.m. and cnn will be on the air until the deliberation is done or until there is a verdict, so make sure you stay tuned. now, to the question before the break, which side does this favor as they go longer and longer and deeper and deeper into the evening here?
the defense, or the prosecution? prosecutor, holly hughes? >> don, there is absolutely no way to tell. the reason we flow that, let's look at high-profile verdicts that came in. o.j. simpson, 4 1/2 hours to acquit. but on the other hand, casey anthony, 15 hours to acquit. jodi arias, ten hours to convict. so you think, okay, ten hours, conviction, should be done by now. look at scott peterson. seven days to convict. so there's no way to know what side it favors, but i do want to let you guys know that if sunny hostin's 3:00 a.m. intel is right, i need some of that coffee you guys in sanford are all bragging about having, okay? >> yeah, well, you know, we said caffeine, because some of it, you know, you're down in atlanta. i don't want to be -- this isn't a commercial, but you know how we do in atlanta here. >> oh, yeah.
marty was talking about coin-co. i'm looking for star fw bucks. >> this appears to be the ever ready jury. as we've been saying. they got the case yesterday, went to work immediately, and until about 6:00 in the evening, then they sent a note to the judge saying, okay, we're done. we're ready to go home. before we talk about that, let's look at this. because we have been talking about the anticipation building. take us outside in front of this courthouse. let's look, there it is. it says end racism and oppression. justice for trayvon. we've been seeing this happening and building throughout the days here. there were a handful, as we started. and then it would pick up then it would die down. and we have also seen supporters for george zimmerman. i ran into some supporters this
morning who said george zimmerman was hit, you must acquit. we love you, george. and on and on. they said, we are america. we're not color. and so these are the -- we shouldn't call them -- i don't call them protesters. they're not protesting anything. they're demonstrating. >> sure. >> and that's what america is about. these are peaceful demonstrators. they have been koocordoned off front of this courthouse and they're exercising their right to demonstrate. it's peaceful. >> there's certainly more than we've seen. i've been here a couple weeks. we've seen every day maybe two or three. it has been building up. i think both perspectives are certainly represented. you do have people that are supportive of george zimmerman and you do have people that are supportive of trayvon martin and his family. and so i would agree, it's been very peaceful. very peaceful. there are no, you know, protesters in a sense. i do think there are demonstrators. when we were talking about this jury, i think what's fascinating is they sent out that question asking for clarification on manslaughter, and then we never heard anything else.
and i find that to be so very curious. >> sunny and i were just talking about that. before we get to that, though, i went and walked with the demonstrators. i wouldn't call them demonstrators because i think they're just -- they're activists. they couldn't have been nicer. pictures. everybodypictures. they were nice. both sides. >> do we have that picture? can we put it back up? >> there was a separation between them all. they would be crossing over. maybe one or two people looked to be troublesome. sunny and i were talking, i think one person was removed from the george zimmerman side. he was saying some inappropriate things. but for that, though, it couldn't be more peaceful. i think if there's an acquittal, i think there might be prayer rallies and i think that's the appropriate way to go. i think there will be some union with that. danger issue? no. in george zimmerman is convicted, i don't think from the other side there's going to be anything. i think that people understand the system has worked in this instance and -- >> how soon we forget, do you
remember the casey antfulhony tl where people were yelling and screaming and outside of -- really indignant. there was unrest, people who were protesting or demonstrating out -- this is no different than that. people come out and do things. >> it's like a love fest out there, though, with a lot of people. >> everyone has been very, very nice. >> it's amazing. you go out there, people are singing, people are talking. there's a civil exchange of ideas. people are passionate. but they're being respectful. you know, with all the rumors that were started about this, i just think it's just a shame because might there be some individual acts, whatever the verdict is, from miscreants who are going to do stupid things on their own, right, but that's not going to be -- people are going to accept it. half the people are going to be unhappy. we know this is split right down the middle. people are going to behave and going to be civil and know that the system worked even if they disafree with the verdict. >> i think that's what's so interesting about this case is that people really have staked their positions firmly in the ground and they have been really
following it, and many people, i think, have talked about, you know, cameras in the courtroom and how it's not a good thing, but i think it's a great thing because the system then becomes transparent. not just for lawyers, because we know what goes on in a courtroom, but not everyone knows what goes on in a courtroom and they feel like they are part of the processes. >> right. >> don't we want that kind of transparency? so that's what i have found so interesting about this. >> all right. all right. standby, guys. i want to tell you thereat it's coming up on 16 hours now that this jury has been deliberating today. so how long could it take? it's really anyone's guess here. i want you to take a look at the deliberation in other high-profile cases here. took jodi arias' jury 15 hours to convict her in the first-degree murder of her ex-boyfriend travis alexander. casey anthony's murder, in casey anthony's trial, i should say, jurors took 10 hours and 40 minutes to acquit her in the death of her daughter. then conrad murray, nine hours
to convict him of involuntary manslaughter in the death of michael jackson. scott peterson, jurors took a whopping seven days in convict him in the murder of his wife, and unborn child. and in the o.j. simpson murder trial, jurors took less than four hours to acquit him in 1995. one thing to remember here. all these juries had 12 members. there are just six in the george zimmerman trial. and they are all women. so, again, i'm don lemon in sanford, florida. we're going to have more coming up after a break. the jury, we could hear from them and the judge coming at any moment. we're right back. at farmers we make you smarter about insurance,
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there it is, the seminole county courthouse. upstairs, fifth floor where the lights are on. that's where george zimmerman's fate will be decided by a six-woman jury. they are still deliberating. almost 16 hours today they have been deliberating and they are still going strong. no indication that they plan on stopping any time soon. george zimmerman, of course, facing second-degree murder charges in the death of 17-year-old trayvon martin. the anticipation is building now that something could happen here soon as we have heard from the jury that they had a question about manslaughter. out front of the courthouse, in the parking lot, and in the courtyard, we are seeing demonstrators, people who are showing up in support of the teen who was killed in that apartment complex and also in support of the man who is
accused of killing him, george zimmerman. we had seen just a handful of protesters showing up as this trial started every day, and now they are starting to gather more. and we should call them demonstrators because they're really not protesting and it has been very peaceful here. we'll continue to update you on what's happening inside of the courthouse. as soon as we get more information. our martin savidge is in the courthouse and has been updating us on what's going on, telling us members of the media have been moved around indicating that something could be imminent soon. in the meantime, the george zimmerman murder trial began with a bang and a whimper with cursing in the opening statement and a joke that fell horribly flat. it turned into a riveting drama, one that forced america to take a hard look at itself. as we wait for a verdict, there is no doubt. it held our attention as soon as the gavel dropped. explosive moments in court, and it started on day one. right out of the gate in opening
statements. >> [ bleep ] punks. these [ bleep ], they always get away. those were the words in that man's chest when he got out of his car, armed with a fully loaded semiautomatic pistol and two flashlights to follow on foot trayvon benjamin martin who was walking home from a 7-eleven armed with 23 ounces of arizona brand fruit juice and a small bag of skittles candies. >> knock, knock. who's there? george zimmerman. george zimmerman who? all right. good. you're on the jury. nothing? that's funny. >> a lot of people didn't find it funny, and defense attorney don west ended up apologizing
later. other key moments, testimony from neighbors who witnessed part of the fight and called 911. we heard screaming in the background and the gunshot that ended trayvon martin's life. >> i can't see him. i don't want to go out there. i don't know what's going on. >> so you think he's yelling help? >> yes. >> all right. what is your -- [ gunshot ] >> there's gunshots. >> there's two guys in backyard with flashlights. >> okay. >> and there's a black guy down. it looks like he's been shot and he's dead. >> okay. >> he's laying and there's multiple people calling right now i'm thinking. >> and, of course, the star witness for the prosecution, rachel jeantel, trayvon martin's friend, who was defiant and later criticized for her attitude in court. we want to warn you, some of the language you're about to hear may be offensive. >> describe iing the person is t
made you think it was racial? >> yes. >> and that's because he described him as a creepy ass cracker? >> yes. >> so it was racial, but it was because trayvon martin put race in this? >> no. >> you don't think that's a racial comment? >> no. >> you don't think that creepy ass cracker is a racial comment? >> no. >> george zimmerman didn't testify on his own behalf, but perhaps he didn't need to. throughout the trial, we heard seven statements from zimmerman about the shooting and one of them was captured on video. a re-enactment he did with investigators, one day after he shot and killed trayvon martin. >> felt like my body was on the grass and my head was on the cement and just kept slamming and slamming, and i just -- i kept yelling help, help, help. put his hand on his nose, on my nose, and his other hand on my
mouth. he said shut the [ muted ] up. i started squirming again. all i could think about is when he was hitting my head against it it felt like my head was going to explode. >> john guy brought in a foam dummy straddling it to show the jury george zimmerman was inconsistent in his statements about trayvon martin going for his gun, then defense attorney mark o'mara decided he would borrow the mannequin for his own demonstration. >> yes, sir. >> okay. by the way, did you have the defendant do this? >> no, sir. >> when you talked to him, you didn't have him do that? >> no, sir. >> okay. if this person, this mannequin, were carrying a firearm on their waist, where would the gun be right now? in relation to me? >> would be at your left inner thigh. >> right here. right? >> yes. if he was right handed, it would be at your left inner thigh, yes, sir. >> underneath my leg. >> yes. >> were the injuries on mr.
zimmerman's back of his head consistent with someone doing this on cement? >> i don't think so. >> how about this? >> how about somebody resisting the attempt, the injuries, the two lacerations? could that come from cement? if somebody was resisting me pushing down like this? >> i believe so. >> whose theory will the jury believe? we may soon find out. second-degree murder? manslaughter? or simply not guilty? hello, everyone, i'm don lemon live leer in sanford, florida. it is the bottom of the hour. you're looking at the seminole county courthouse. it is dark in most places except for that top floor. that fifth floor where they are deciding the fate. that's where george zimmerman's fate will be decided on that fifth floor. that's whether it will be announced. a six-woman jury deliberating right now and you're looking at the state seal. and we haven't heard anything in
just about 2 1/2 or 3 hours, from the judge, from the jury, when they came out and said that they had a question concerning manslaughter. the judge said she would get back to us shortly. we haven't heard anything. they have taken their dinner break and worked right through it. still deliberating. they could do it until 3:00 in the morning. could we go out front and show those people who have been gathering here over the last couple of hours? at first, it was a handful of demonstrators over the last few days of the trial and now it is growing into more people. people who are in support of trayvon martin. people who are in support of george zimmerman. we have seen signs that say end racial oppression. justice for trayvon martin. also, george zimmerman was hit. you must acquit. back now live, where i am. i'm don lemon here in sanford, florida, with cnn's special coverage of the george zimmerman trial.
any minute now we may get a big clue to how close we could be to a possible verdict, and that's when court resumes in the six-woman jury must get specific about its question on manslaughter. or where we may get some new information from the judge, from judge debra nelson, as to how the jury responded to her note and her instructions on that question they had about manslaughter. she said that their question was apparently too vague. here she is. listen. >> answer that has been afreed upon by both your counsel and the state is as follows. court cannot engage in general discussions, but may be able to address a specific question regarding clarification of the instructions regarding manslaughter. if you have a specific question, please submit it. is that acceptable to you, sir? >> yes, your honor.
>> acceptable to the state? >> your, your honor. >> acceptable to counsel for the defense? >> thank you. >> okay. so here we go. george zimmerman's entire future really is in the hands of that six jury, woman jury which has been deliberating for 15 hours now. i want to get to our panel of legal experts here. sunny hostin is joining me. she's here in sanford, florida. i don't even think i need to introduce all of the folks with us now because folks should know who they are. it's paul callan and also holly hughes. all former prosecutors. what if i put it that way? okay? i want to talk to you guys. we're going to talk about manslaughter and what the state has to prove and to the jury, in order for them to come to a manslaughter conclusion or for a second-degree murder conclusion. and since they have presented this question about manslaughter, the belief is that they may have moved beyond second-degree murder. so what's at stake here? what happens next? we'll get to that right after a
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of the family attorney, benjamin crump, and there is tracy martin, and the mother of trayvon martin, sybrina fulton there. these are faces that we have come to know over the past year, and really thereat we haat we h see testify on our screens in the courtroom over the past couple days on cnn. we have been telling you about the demonstrators who are gathering outside the seminole county courthouse here in sanford, florida. i want to get to cnn's david mattingly now who's among those demonstrators. david, what are you hearing, how many demonstrators out there now? >> reporter: well, don, we're looking at several dozen protesters out here. they have been gathering ever since word came down that the jury was deliberating. so the crowd has been getting larger and smaller throughout the last 24 hours. and now as we get later in the night, people are finding a little more energy, getting aly l more vocal, the chants are getting a little bit louder. the crowd here decidedly there favor of trayvon martin seeking a guilty verdict for george
zimmerman. if you look around the crowd here, a lot of people holding signs, we're seeing a lot of familiar themes here. covering this for over a year. the one thing that seems to resonate with people the most was trayvon martin's age. so in this crowd, we're seeing a lot of young adults. a lot of people who are personally affected by this and could relate to that situation. and we're also seeing some familiar faces in here. there are some young people, part of a group of college students, who marched from daytona to sanford last summer. they were well organized. they got a lot of attention. some of them are here tonight. and also making a great deal of noise. and as we go later into the evening, don, you can hear them getting just a little bit louder. there was a little bit of a problem earlier. there was a middle-aged white man, stood up in front of this crowd, and said some unkind things to the people here. there was a loud vocal reaction
to what he had to say. deputies came in, immediately removed that man. but all along, there's really been no discord here. absolutely no shred of any hint of any sort of violent overtones here. everything very peaceful, but, again, people making sure that their point of view is heard and this crowd decidedly in favor of a guilty verdict for george zimmerman. don? >> david, thank you very much. i think people have been very vigilant about making sure that all the demonstrations so far have been peaceful, no matter which sides you're on and that is a good thing. david mattingly, we'll get back to you throughout our live coverage here on cnn. legal experts here, our superpanel, so to speak. they're here to guide me through this and to guide our viewers through that. sunny hostin who is a cnn legal analyst. paul callan, a cnn legal analyst. l holly hughes, cnn legal
analyst. also los angeles attorney brian cabatek. do we have faith jenkins with us as well? no faith. we'll get to faith in just a little bit. listen, legal panel, i want to go to the judge's jury instructions when she read them on friday, specifically when she's talking about manslaughter, and then we'll talk about it. listen. >> we have a jury question. question reads as follows. may we please have clarification on the instructions regarding manslaughter? does counsel want to come up here and view it and propose a response? >> okay. that was today. that was today. that was a question that they had. let's listen to the jury instructions and then we'll talk. >> to prove the crime of manslaughter, the state must prove the following two elements beyond a reasonable doubt. one, trayvon martin is dead, two, george zimmerman
intentionally committed an act or acts that caused the death of trayvon martin. george zimmerman can not be guilty of manslaughter or committing a merely negligent act or if the killing was justifiable or excusable homicide. each of us has a duty to act reasonably toward others. if there is a violation of that duty without intention to harm, that violation is negligence. >> okay. paul callan, you and i have been talking about this all night. you've been saying it's very simple to you. did she lay it out simply in her instructions to the jury on friday? >> well, she did, and i got it tell you, the fact sunny was just saying it's odd about the jury not coming back with that question. they should have been back and hour ago resubmitting their question on manslaughter. they're not resubmitting it. i'm thinking, now, you've got one or two holdout jurors and we're close to a verdict, and you know something, it could be an acquittal because if, in
fact, they're not going to bother to resubmit for another instruction, they -- if they're going to convict a man for murder, they certainly would want another instruction on that. the fact that they're not resubmitting very, very odd. it sounds like a juror who had the question is abandoning it now and maybe going along with the majority view. so this, of course, remains speculation. but i think the judge's charge was very clear, don, and i think that this is a little bit of holdout jurors fighting over their position at the very end of jury deliberations. that's how i'm reading this. >> yeah. and there's really a page and half, almost two pages when it comes to manslaughter here because, and sunny, you're reading it. you have the same thing here with me. it goes on to say the killing of a human being is excusable and therefore lawful under any of the following three circumstances. when the killing is committed by accint and misfortune, and doing any lawful act by lawful means with usual, ordinary
caution and without unlawful intent when the killing occurs in misfortune. heat of passion, upon any sudden or sufficient provocation. or when the killing is committed by accident and misfortune resulting from a sudden combat, if a dangerous weapon is not used and the killing is not done in a cruel or unusual manner. then it goes on. >> that's the excusable homicide part of it. so the manslaughter part is trayvon martin is dead, george zimmerman intentionally committed an act resulting in that death. it caused that death. and then it does describe ways in which he may not be -- >> i like to go slowly. says the killing of a human being is excusable and, therefore, therefore lawful under any one of the following three circumstances. and you said that is what? >> that is about the excusability, possibility, of manslaughter. >> meaning in layman's terms? >> in layman's terms you may not be guilty of manslaughter if what you did, there's an excuse
for it, right? in it's justified or there's an excuse for it. that's what's interesting about this, because if they've gotten past second-degree murder, in my view, that means they may have already gotten past the excusability or whether or not it was justified but maybe not. >> here's the weird thing. when we're saying -- i'm not -- when you guys are saying they have gotten past second-degree murder, that means in the jury instructions that could mean acquittal. they could be going down to acquittal. >> it could very well mean that. >> we shouldn't read anything into that. >> at this point, i suppose that's right. i mean, my experience tells me the jurors generally go right down the verdict form. they consider one thing then they consider the next. so, you know, not determining and deciding that second-degree murder isn't appropriate here, they would have had to also decided that self-defense didn't apply. >> i don't want to get into the weeds. we're getting a little wonky
here. we're on the air. okay. so we're getting some information now from mark nejame who just returned. he was in front of the courthouse. standby, mark. we don't want to get that. we want to make sure it is accurate before we report it here on cnn. with that said, there may be a development. we're back in a moment. i asked my husband to pay our bill, and he forgot. you have the it card and it's your first time missing a payment, so there's no late fee. really? yep! so is your husband off the hook? no. he went out for milk last week and came back with a puppy. hold it. hold it. hold it. at discover, we treat you like you'd treat you. get the it card with late payment forgiveness. thshe makes a nifty livingn sleeping on mattresses pioneered by engineers whose singluar devotion is not stopping until they have given her the best sleep of her life.
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zimmerman trial. and that is the latest information that we have coming from the public information officer at and wear getting that via tweet and via text and we are working on getting our martin savidge who is in the courtroom and my legal panel who's here joining me now is, martin knee jam who came back before the break and also joining us now is sunny hostin. so this is -- we said that there was anticipation building. you thought there would be a verdict now. this live pictures inside of the court. there you see george zimmerman in the courtroom now. they are convening in the courtroom and there you see his defense team joining him in the courtroom. again, there is a verdict in the george zimmerman trial. and obviously, there is some movement because we are seeing live pictures now from inside the court, and we are also
seeing george zimmerman and others starting to gather in the courtroom in sanford is, florida. the six-woman jury working yesterday till about 6:00 in the evening, 6:30 in the evening eastern time and then going home and then coming back at 9:00 a.m. and then deliberating all day today through lunch and then through dinner and deliberating for almost 13 hours. 16 hours and 20 minutes total deliberation time. those are the live pictures inside the courtroom, and you can see that members of the prosecution have also gathered. they are awaiting now the judge to come in and probably the jury, as well. this is a moment that will people have been waiting for for over a year now since february 26th, 2012 when this all went
down at an apartment complex in sanford, florida and george zimmerman and trayvon martin got into the some sort of confrontation and then it became national news, the culmination of this we're going to find out what happens in moments and find out george zimmerman's fate in moments. is he going to go to jail for the rest of his life? is he going to go to jail for a very long time? is he going to be acquitted and walk free? we is find out. there's his wife. there's his mother and his father sitting next to her. and there is george zimmerman sitting in the courtroom. dan -- sorry? who is joining us? martin savage and jeffrey toobin joining us now as we see people coming into the courtroom. i want to go to martin savidge because martin has been following all of this. martin, take us inside the
courtroom. martin? martin, let me know when we have martin. martin, can you hear me? i can tell that you there is not great reception inside of that courthouse as i was in there this morning. martin, i'm going to try you one more time before i try jeffrey toobin. are you there, martin savidge? no marty. jeffrey toobin -- 16 hours, 20 minutes. >> don? >> yes. >> yeah. you know, this is actually about average for a trial of this, at least a high profile trial. our colleagues have done some research, 14, 15, 16 hours.
that's really a fairly average for these high profile cases. what's unusual is that 12 of those hours came in one day, but i don't think you can draw any particular conclusions one way or the other by the length of the deliberation. >> mark najime, you knew that something was going on and you came back and said as you took a break here, something's happening. people are scrambling in the parking lot. what do you make? jeffrey says this is par for the course of this time of case. >> we were getting to the outer limits. as we were talking about this, we realized if you run to that standard sunny and i have been talking about one hour for one day in trial, we're within an hour or two of that. so it runs true to form. yeah, this is consistent with what a trial of this time and
magnitude would bring in. i think if it had gone longer, we were starting to get to the place where we might not have an agreement. but we clearly have one and we're going to find out probably within the next hour. the judge gives notice. all the lawyers will be getting together right now. everybody will be contacting their families who are still available. the judge will keep order in the courtroom. i'm sure outside they're going to have the sheriff's deputies on high alert to make sure there's nothing going on. that's what will be happening. and then from there, we're going to be all waiting in anxious anticipation what the verdict will be. there will be a count 1 read and the judge will call it to order. there will be a count one for murder in the second degree. and then there will be a comment on that and then they'll go to the next one. sunny hostin, you said to me, and i have to be honest, sunny hostin said to me tonight,
there's going to be a verdict tonight. >> yell. >> yeah. >> why did you feel that? >> i mean, it's obvious when a jury decides to work through dinner that they believe that they are close. what will is strange to me, don,ing so i knew there was going to be a verdict tonight. what is strange to me is that they asked for clarification on manslaughter. is the judge sent back a note asking them to be more specific and they were never more specific. i think that that is a good sign for the defense actually. i think perhaps there could have been that sort of lone holdout that was saying yeah, i don't know. maybe this is manslaughter, maybe this is manslaughter. and then perhaps changed her mind. and so i think it's a good sign for the defense that they never asked for the clarification. >> and what we -- i just want to remind our viewers, you're watching cnn.
this is live coverage of the george zimmerman trial. we have a verdict in the george zimmerman trial and the pictures you're looking at now are live pictures inside the courtroom in sanford, florida. i'm joined now by a team of legal experts as we await the announcement of this verdict and we are awaiting the judge and the jury to come in and announce the verdict. what they could decide upon here, second degree murder, manslaughter, here comes the judge. we're going to listen in. >> please be seated. we're back on the record. >> yes, your honor. >> let's go ahead and bring them in. and i will remind everybody in the courtroom that there's to be no outbursts upon the reading of
reached a verdict? >> would you please fold the vert form and hand it to deputy jarvis? thank you. okay. if you'll please publish the verdict. >> in the circuit court confident 18th judicial circuit in and for seminole county florida, state of florida versus george zimmerman, verdict we the jury find george zimmerman not guilty. so say we all foreperson. >> does either side want to poll is the jury? we would is, your honor. >> okay, ladies and ladies and gentlemen is, i mean ladies as is your juror number is being called please answer whether this is is your verdict. >> judge b 29, is this your verdict? >> yet juror b 76 is in this your verdict.
>> yes. >> b 37, is this is your verdict? >> yes 1993 juror b 591, is this your verdict? yes. >> juror b 6 is this your verdict? yes. >> e 6, is this your verdict? yes. >> ladies is, i wish to thank you for your time and consideration on this case. i wish to advise you of very special privileges enjoyed by jurors. no juror could ever be required to talk about the discussions that occurred in the jury room except by court record. for system centuries our society has relied upon juries for consideration of difficulty cases. we have recognized for hundreds of years that a jury as a deliberations, discussions, and votes should remain their private affair as long as they wish it. therefore, the law gives you a unique privilege not to speak about the jury's work. although you are at liberty to speak with anyone about your deliberations, be you are also at liberty be to refuse to speak to anyone.