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soil. we're awaiting a conference with police commissioner bill bratton in. three new yorkers accused of trying to join the vicious terror group, isis. according to the court documents released a short time ago, one of the suspects said the plan was to travel today, to hijack a plane and deliver it to isis. one suspect even offered to kill president obama if isis ordered him to do so. and yet another suspect was arrested just this morning at new york's jfk airport trying to board a flight to turkey. court documents show that he considered getting a machine gun and shooting fbi agents and police officers if his plan to join isis in syria was thwarted. this all comes just hours after the fbi chief revealed his agency is investigating possible homegrown violent extremists in all 50 states. lots to discuss. joining me now, justice correspondent evan perez and former analyst, evans.

any time now, any moment now we expect that two of the suspects will be making their appearance here in court in brooklyn. they'll be read the charges. this investigation is far from over. the fbi started wlooklooking at these guys last year when they noticed at least one of them making threats, what appeared to be threats online in an uzbek language website where people discussed isis ideology and propaganda. that's when the fbi decided to investigate further. they introduced him to an undercover informant who was able to record some conversations with the suspects. that's one of the scary things here. if this guy hadn't gone online and said something, frankly, really supervisedtupid, his desire of carrying out an attack to assassinate president obama, this probably would not have gotten any notice. when these guys go online and talk like this is when they typically get the attention of

the fbi. sometimes without that, they have no idea. >> and talk is cheap, you could say. it's when they're actually showing they have a plan in mind of how they're going to carry out their threats that the fbi or intelligence officials can move in right? >> that would trigger the material support charge here the material support to terrorism. that's what they're about to be charged with. it's a -- my former unit. this is how these operations tend to go down. you have a long-term surveillance. it seemed like there was more operational activity that was being planned in the last few weeks. that's why they probably decided to move now. to evan's point the ones who are sloppy tend to caught this way. they're so open about their plans and discussing and talking to informants about them. those who have good operational security make it to isis. that's happened to thousands and thousands of fighters around the world, including from here in the homeland.

>> was it just an idea to kill president obama or was there specific planning in mind? >> it doesn't look like they had -- they went very far with it. this is something that one much them was ruminating about online. thank goodness that's as far as it got. that's what the fbi was very concerned about and they're -- that's what the fbi director was talking to this morning. he was speaking to a group of attorneys general from around the country. because the fbi needs all of these law enforcement people back in the states to be their eyes and ears. they sent out an intelligence bulletin just in the last hour or so because of this case. i'll read you a short little bit of what they told law enforcement officials around the country, which is that these individuals highlight the continued interest of u.s.-based violent extremists to support designated terrorist organizations, isil in this case. urges vigilance and cooperation with local businesses and law enforcement partners. frankly, the -- as we said you know, we've discussed a lot

about the flow of fighters from european countries, which is a much bigger number. this is a reminder that this is as much a problem in this country as well. >> we have 60 coalitions fighting in syria and iraq. it seems like isis tentacles continue to spread. now we have the arrests here in new york. how is isis still having such a stronghold? >> isis is approaching the expansion in a few different ways. there's the fight in iraq and syria, which is a ground war, ground campaign and there have been some halts to that. they also continue to expand in some areas. depends where you're put in the frontline in syria and iraq. then there's idea of affiliates in sinai and egypt and libya. this is essentially isis creating entities that are isis-like in other countries. that's outside the cordon much u.s. forces and u.s. air strikes. the third level would be the sort of self-radicalized

jihadists from the u.s. and everywhere else who will try to join in one of the other fights or engage in a jihad here at home. these are the different levels and you can't defeat them all at the same time. >> what does isis have that other terrorist groups haven't had for it to stretch so for and wide? >> they have control of territory. they have the largest jihadist army that we've seen in certainly decades and they have a social media campaign that's been pointed out that is more slick and more sort of directly targeted at their audience and having more efficacy than previous efforts like this. when you add that together control of territory, large fighting force and an ability to spread the message effectively. >> are they outsmarting the rest of the -- >> they've developed a brand is really what they are. they've been able to not only control territory, but they're encouraging young people this is the cool thing we're doing. these slick videos that surface online. that's the way they're reaching

people. they're going beyond -- around us and they're going directly to those young people with this very slick brand that is intended to portray some kind of adventure and encouraging people to come and join them. that's what being successful is. >> i talked to the parent of one of the isis recruits shannon conley. 19-year-old woman who just was sentenced in colorado for pleading guilty for conspiracy to provide material support to isis. her mom said she didn't know what she was getting herself into. now the world knows what isis is all about. yet, isis continues to bring more people into their world, buck. >> because of the way they do their messaging, they tend to exploit people who may be more subject to the kinds of calls that they're making. we'll give you a righteous cause, we'll give you something that will give you adventure and that does have some resonance. they also go deep into theology and to the creation of this caliphate which they take

seriously. they're using terminology for the different isis provinces. they're trying to recreate something historically that captures the imagine sflagsations who are tending to this ideology and have personal reasons why they'd be able to be essentially brainwashed. >> fascinating. thank you both for being here. we'll talk to you after the nypd news conference as we continue to monitor that. the news out of new york comes on the heels of reports that three young women from the u.k. have fled to syria, apparently to join isis. in fact, they are believed to be inside syria now. cnn senior international correspondent has been tracking the global reach of this terror group and the arrests in the u.s. comes a day after the four people we mentioned were arrested in spain trying to recruit isis fighters allegedly. they were actually doing that recruitment from spain. they weren't even in syria or iraq which we've seen most of the time. they're targeting recruits in

latin america, not just -- they seem to be spreading, the tentacles. >> the message has gone viral. they're making themselves attractive and attractive because they make what they're doing look exciting. they've got people if you take example of these three young girls from britain in the past week they've got people who left britain, who get there to syria and send a message and explain how you can do it what you need to bring, what you should be prepared for. what sort of clothing. even sort of how to fool border guards. there is a lot of education coming from isis as well to educate people how to do it. they need those people joining the fight. why do they need them? because on the ground at least in iraq and syria, they're having a tough fight. they're getting hit by the coalition. they're fighting the iraqi kurds. they'll be facing off it would seem just today in the west of iraq against an improving iraqi

force around al baghdadi. they need to funnel the people in. that's a machine for them. they know they have to keep the recruitment going and keep it attractive. they've got to make the message as we talked about here slick. they've got to make the message one that people can grasp on to. it's the best tool for them. they're ahead of us in many ways in using it. >> we understand that these three british teenagers apparently were in contact with a scottish woman who is believed to be in syria known to have her isis ties and that they exchanged some messages and communication over social media. so u.k. has been criticized for not -- is the u.k. making any adjustments in terms much how they track online communications? >> that field is improving. it's expanding. they're taking the fight, if you

will to isis using -- and against them. the problem for the british intelligence authority, as it is all the way across europe they are absolutely stretched. you know if you have an individual you want to have a 24-hour surveillance on it can take as many as 20 people to keep that surveillance on them. if you've got thousands of people and it's more than that who are using social media, who are just sort of passive supporters you're trying to sift through all of that and focus on the people you need to target on. the intelligence services here in britain have been recruiting more and more people to take on that precise threat. but it's an evolving science. they still don't have enough people to do it. you talk to the families of some of these kids who have gone they're distraught. they go to any length to try to stop their kids taking passports, trying to talk their kids down. but oftentimes it's beyond their control. the kids get together like these

three girls. find a way to do it. >> nic robertson, thanks for that insight. any moment now, the nypd expected to give that press conference with more on the three new york men arrested one allegedly on the way to join isis. police commissioner bill bratton should be speaking soon. we keep hearing it's going to be at 3:00 of the we'll bring it live as soon as it happens. we're back in a moment. also though, a guilty verdict in the american sniper murder trial. that's another big story we're following. we're just now getting our first look at some of the powerful evidence that was used in court. the judge finally lifted the squash, the kibosh he put on during the trial itself. new questions about how the v.a. treated this suspect, eddie ray routh. plus more trouble for bill o'reilly. another story from his time as a reporter is being questioned. how o'reilly is responding to this coming up. it's a full day for me, and i love it.

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press release which i'm sure you've all seen and has the details of the case that we're prepared to answer any questions you might have within the confines of what we can talk about relative to what is an ongoing investigation. newly appointed fbi assistant director in charge here in new york. new york division diego rodriguez is here as well as special agent in charge of the counterterrorism division of the new york field office mill sweeney. the nypd counterterrorism bureau chief that you're familiar with chief waters, john miller who is the deputy commissioner for counterterrorism intelligence and also deputy chief joseph you are bit who is our senior officer at the joint terrorism task force. as you're aware, that this morning that in a joint operation that arrests were made

of three individuals for actions directed against the united states and you are seeing that press release and we're prepared to respond to questions you might have. as i've referenced it's an ongoing investigation that there are certain areas we cannot touch upon. that myself and the head of the fbi office and others here will be prepared to answer your questions. with that -- >> [ inaudible question ] acts of terrorism in the new york area -- >> well i think what is alleged in the filing is that the efforts were to -- two of the individuals were seeking to fly to syria. one was arrested at the international airport, jfk international airport as he was getting ready to board that flight. a second individual had a later flight scheduled. he was arrested at home here in

brooklyn. a third individual who we believe helped to organize and finance the trip -- the other two individuals was arrested in jacksonville florida by fbi agents and is being detained in jacksonville. so the initial actions were to go to syria and attempt to join isil in syria. >> released today, talk about how they couldn't do they -- [ inaudible question ]. >> that's correct. >> we treat that very seriously as alleged in the filing. the idea that it was made quite plain based on the statements that if they were not able to go that they would seek to acquire weapons here. hand guns machine gun and seek to attack very specifically police officers.

and so that the -- those aspirations were made quite clear by their own statements. >> commissioner, there were two of them were residents. do we know -- >> i can't speak to that. anybody here know the specific -- >> i can't give that you at this particular point in time. [ inaudible question ]. >> legal permanent residents in new york and a third individual in florida was here legally and then overstayed. >> so the person in florida is being indicted in florida. the indictment that he's here as well [ inaudible question ]. >> what she's asking is the permanent residents here is where -- all three of them resided in brooklyn.

>> yes. >> two of them were uzbeki citizens and the other was a kazakhstan citizen. two were legal resident aliens here. [ inaudible question ]. >> just the way it worked out investigative investigatively. we were concentrating on the individual leaving new york city on his way out to syria. [ inaudible question ] the last couple of weeks, about homeland security. as we previously stated i think, yesterday made some comments that with all that's going on in washington at the moment the debate about the withholding of funding for homeland security this is not the time to engage in activities that would threaten our counterterrorism capabilities

such as the movement on this case and effectively to hold our counterterrorism agencies as hostage to political machinations in d.c. i think this case reinforces that contention on our part. this is not the time to be engaging in political rhetoric political grandstanding. >> lately about what is happening -- [ inaudible question ]. >> oh, certainly. that we have talked about this over an extensive period of time. i think our reference when john miller and i came in in january of 2014 and took on our new positions that threat at that time was principally that of al qaeda and al qaeda and the peninsula being charged with the mission of carrying out attacks against the united states. quickly within a short period of time after our appointment, the emergence of isis or isil as

it's known became very quickly apparent as was clearly seen with the events in syria that they were now a new significant addition to the terrorism threat that and that they're -- this past year they've been limited primarily to the mideast. that their ability through their social media propaganda skills to inspire those as these individuals were inspired to travel to syria to fight, but for those who cannot travel don't have the resources, in the outreach efforts in december i think, john -- >> september and december. >> september and december. encouraging attacks wherever you live, whether it's here in the united states europe. if you can't get a gun, if you can't make a bomb get a knife. we saw a sample of that, i think, of the attack on our police officers. that individual when we did the backtracking on his computer activity among the 150 some odd

different sites that he was visiting were some of those that were controlled by isis or isil. this is real. this is the concern about the lone wolf inspired to act without ever going to the mideast or the concern once they get to the mideast acquire fighting skills and capabilities and attempting to return to the country. >> is this the first time that you know of that you've seen isis or -- from new york city trying to make their way overseas and into syria? >> this is an ongoing investigation that -- and is among a number of investigations that we're engaged in. so this is the first public example of that that would be correct. >> commissioner the complaint specifies confidential informant being one of the suspects in a mosque. can you say where that mosque

was and -- was it a -- >> for the purposes of this investigation, the mosques were relevant and we're not going to talk about where they worshipped specifically. if it's not in the complaint, we're not going to discuss it. but yeah, it was not relevant to this investigation where they worshipped. >> >>. [ inaudible question ] recording of the conversation -- >> at this point, i'm not going to discuss sources of methods. but as you know sources of methods are important to us. we'll use anything under our authorities to go ahead and the joint terrorism task force does that on a regular basis. >> sometime last year did they come as federal agents were they coming to just kind of investigate in general? there was an example, i can't remember the case where federal

agents came to say sort of like don't do this stop you're better than this. is that what was happening here? or was it just -- >> i'm not following exactly what specific example you're referring to. >> to answer the question they came as federal agents as members of the joint terrorism task force. they identified them as such. they interviewed both gentlemen and as is reflected in the complaints both gentlemen made statements at the time. so it was what it was. >> why were they not arrested? >> this is just normal protocol for us. we're always trying to identify these folks, their hierarchy. their network. as the commissioner mentioned, these folks are very very savvy with social media.

and that's one of the things that through our authorities, we are one of the few domestic law enforcement agencies that have that where we can use intel and seamlessly walk and transfer over and act operationally and quickly that we see something imminent happening. we make sure we do that. that's why it's played out as much as we could. [ inaudible question ]. >> when it happened -- >> we can't get into that at this stage because it is actually not contained in the complaint. because charges have been filed. we're limited to what's contained in the complaint. >> [ inaudible question ] . >> something that you're watching closely or is this --

[ inaudible question ]. >> to answer your first question no. second question we're not targeting anybody -- specifically looking at anybody. we look at everything across the board and where it kind of comes into that web, we start focusing based on the circumstances we have. we let the evidence take it wherever it goes. >> sort of -- [ inaudible question ]. >> i think it's reflected in the complaint exactly. the steps which were taken and some of the things that were said on their postings. so based on that they're seeking to be part of isil but obviously, potentially radicalized based on again, the manipulation of isil with social media. >> one additional question and we'll be done. >> yes. british authorities looking for

teenagers who left britain to go fight as well overseas can you give context as to where this case fits nationally and internationally with the continuing trouble to stop westerners from leaving to -- >> we're going to pull out of this. this is the very end of the press conference involving police commissioner bill bratton with the nypd also members of the fbi, members of the joint counterterrorism task force, some multiple agencies involved in the arrest of these three men from new york city who were just arrested accused of trying to join isis and to provide support for this terrorist organization. i want to bring in our justice correspondent as well as buck sexton. we learned two of the were legal residents of the u.s. even though they weren't from the u.s. originally. weren't born here. one was somebody born here

legally and overstayed. what else have we learned? >> we learned from the commissioner of policeh bill bratton, here in new york what he is now assessing is that this isis has now transformed itself into a real threat here in this country. until now, we've heard from law enforcement officials in washington and around the country that the view of isis was that they really weren't capable of doing anything here. that appears to still be the case. however, what he is signaling is he says this is real. because when he took office he said we came thinking that our main concern was al qaeda, al qaeda affiliated in yemen. what he's saying now is that because of the ability of isis to appeal to some of its recruits to people who are being radicalized at home, to really do anything whatever they can to help carry out attacks on this country that the isis threat has really transformed itself into something that is at the top of his list. >> right. the police commissioner talking about at least one of the

suspects with plans to buy weapons to kill or shoot or injure fbi agents, police officers here in the u.s. one of the suspects even saying he would try to kill the president if isis wanted him to do so. buck how big is the threat to america? >> the threat is very real and it's been around for a while. specifically from isis as well as al qaeda and affiliates. isis has been telling its adherence around the world even though it doesn't necessarily keep lists. it can reach out to people and assume those who are supporters may act on its proclamation. that is to engage in attacks against countries essentially where you are. anything outside of the islam, people in the islamic state, anything outside that of is going to be a place you can actually target. what we've seen generally is more recruits showing up to fight for isis than people engaged in attacks on home lands, whether australia, europe canada. but we're going to see more of in this country i think.

we have to be prepared. the nypd counterterrorism division and other law enforcement agencies are going to do the best job they can. based on the sheer numbers of those who not only join isis but are supporters of isis someone is going to slip through the cracks at some point. they're talking about attacking, even with very little training or skill or operational security if they're going to get firearms and kill people in the name of isis, that's easy to do. the fbi realized they had to swoop in not just to get the individual flying. >> as you pointed out earlier, one frt men arrested in florida wasn't necessarily planning to travel to syria according to the fbi but was financing, was providing sort of support for a network of sorts. >> right. >> makes you wonder what others he's in contact with or has been in contact with. >> that's partly what the fbi and the nypd the members of the joint terrorism task force were doing overnight. they frankly, worked through the

night after they arrested the one person trying to fly out of jfk. they wanted to find others -- that's part of what's interesting about this case it appears to be something transformative here. it's something that the fbi has not noticed before which is any kind of real network. most of the guys tend to act alone. they're afraid of getting found out. >> this is a cell. not a lone wolf. that's the distinction. >> now they're looking for the cluster and terrorism analysis. we call that the people that are affiliates that may have known. that's a part of the follow-on investigation as well as the possibility of lone wolves in contact with the cell or additional cells. these are the moving pieces right now. >> hence the warning to law enforcement. because if the fact that they've now arrested these guys perhaps there are others they're in contact with. the fbi doesn't know about, they could be deciding to act and i'll tell you one other thing that's interesting from the press conference. the information that one of these overstayed his visa. that's going to be something

that the government has to answer for. it's a fear a big weakness in our system. if you have people who are overstaying their visa and could carry out attacks. >> it is an ongoing investigation as they said. evan perez, buck sexton thank you both for your insight and expertise. two of the terror suspects are expected to be in this brooklyn courtroom this afternoon. we have a cnn crew in court. we'll bring you the latest from there once we have it. up next after stories about isis spreading and kidnapping more people now it appears the effort to defeat the militants is working in some places. we'll take you to the frontlines of the fight, next. sfx: opening chimes sfx: ambient park noise, crane engine, music begins. we asked people a question how much money do you have in your pocket right now? i have $40 $53, $21, do you think the money in your pocket could make an impact on something as big as your retirement?

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thanks so much for staying with us as we have been following the breaking news out of new york where federal

authorities today charged three men with conspiracy to help isis. western nations might not be engaging in actual ground combat against the terror group. but they are fighting isis at ground level. how? by training forces who have already proven they can win against this terrorist group. the kurdish pesh mer ga in iraq is one of the groups. these fighters have kept isis at bay and a lot of the region here despite suffering serious losses. i am going to turn now to our senior international correspondent inner erbil, iraq. >> it's a base being training in some respects. in other respects more sophisticated weapons systems. this is a program that only began earlier this year, but it's already beginning to show results. kurdish fighters rushed to

battle stations crawling to take up positions behind sandbags. moments later, they opened fire. isis is a long way away. these men have left the front to participate in an expanding coalition training program for the peshmarga. the instructor are from the german army. for security reasons, they declined to be interviewed on camera and asked that we not show their faces. many of the peshmerga are no strangers to war. nonetheless, this sort of modern training makes a difference. >> translator: when we returned to the front he tells me i'm hoping we'll take fewer casualties and inflict more on the enemy. >> in iraqi kurdistan, training is conducted by dutch, italian and british troops. elsewhere in iraq u.s. troops are working to upgrade the

beleaguered iraqi army. dutch soldiers trained the fighters in the most basic of battlefield first aid, how to protect and evacuate the wounded. how to tie a sim will tourniquet. peshmerga units don't have medics. the wounded are simply thrown in the back of a car and, if they're lucky, they'll survive the drive to the nearest hospital. one aspect of training the peshmerga have asked for says the spokesman is urban warfare. foreshadowing perhaps a role in the battle for mosul. if that battle happens, the worry is that isis will sew the city with thousands of improvised explosive devices or i.e.d.s. here the troops are learning how to detect i.e.d.s. more than 50% of peshmerga

casualties are caused by the ieds. the training program began last month and is already showing results. >> the two platoons, we trained them at the frontlines. we got the answer from the peshmerga, the generals that those platoons are much more efficient than before. >> and perhaps more deadly. here italian troops are training the peshmerga on an italian made tank weapon. it's likely to make an impact when they take it to the front. >> and the kurds are hoping that this training in combination with new and better weapons will definitely turn the tide when it comes to isis. ana. >> fascinating, ben wedeman, thank you so much. live in iraq for us. we just got a statement from new york senator charles schumer

releasing the statement after those three men were arrested for allegedly trying to join isis arrested here in new york and i want to read this to you. it says "this foiled isis plot sends shivers down the spine of new yorkers and clearly under scores that we must remain ever vigilant in the face of terror threats. that funding our national security must be a top priority of the federal government at all times. while details are emerging it's reassuring to know that the fbi and the joint terrorism task force has had eyes on these would-be terrorists for months. we have the best law enforcement community in the world protecting us each and every day." . note the mention that funding federal government should be a priority as we are still awaiting some kind of a vote on that dhs funding which runs out on friday should the senate and the house not be able to find a compromise here. much more on all of this just ahead. also more reports that anchor bill o'reilly may have

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i want to stop this now. those words from fox news host bill o'reilly after repeated allegations that he embellished his reporting, saying he witnessed deadly protests during the falk land's war in 1982 and new scrutiny of his reporting surrounding jfk's assassination. his former colleagues where he was once a reporter said o'reilly could not have witnessed the suicidal gunshot that killed a friend of lee harvey oswald. that account had been made by the fox news host on air and also in his book killing kennedy where he writes "as the reporter knocked on the door of the daughter's home he heard the gunshot blast, the shotgun blast

that marked the suicide of the russian assuring that his sheelgs rooelgs ship with lee harvey oswald would never be fully understood." by the way, that reporter's name is bill o'reilly. i want to bring in lloyd grove, the editor-at-large for the daily beast who has been following this story closely. lloyd, media reports local law enforcement did not put o'reilly in the place where that gunshot was fired. how damning are these accusation sns. >> i don't think they're accusations. i think they're facts. he wasn't there. there are phone audiotapes showing that he was in dallas trying to get to the site of the suicide. didn't get there until at least the day after. so they're not really accusations. the guy just made it up. how damning are they? if we expected to get our facts and our news from bill o'reilly like we did from brian williams they would be damning, but since we don't depend on bill for that we depend on him for his opinion, for his entertainment

value and for fighting for the folks, then they're not going to be a career ending thing >> yet these aren't the only accusations against him about him embellishing or lying about certain facts of where he was or what he experienced while reporting. in fact bill o'reilly just asked cbs to release the report on the faulklands. i want to play some of this from "the o'reilly factor" from monday night. then we'll discuss. >> as i reported accurately the violence was horrific. today, cbs news released the video. >> as words of the defeat leaked out, thousands of demonstrators began to gather outside the presidential palace but the demonstrators, as many as 5,000 of them began screaming traitor, traitor and this is the end of the military dictatorship. >> in my reporting, i told it exactly the way it was. >> now, that wasn't bill o'reilly, what he just showed, was it?

we don't put him at the scene even though he showed the clip of the video. >> no one's disputing that bill o'reilly was in buenos aries covering this riot. there were five cbs crews at least on the scene. it could have come from anyone. where the problem arose was bill saying i covered the faulklands war, or he kept sort of indicating or being imprecise or making it up that he was in the faulklands and that wasn't the case. >> so he covered it but you're saying that he embellished what he experienced? >> he covered the riot. he didn't cover the war. the war was over by the time that riot occurred. argentina had already surrendered to the british navy. you know bill is sort of a story teller. he's a teller of tall tales at times. this is not the only incident of bill sort of you know massaging the facts to suit his entertainment value.

>> you think that this may have no effect on his success in the future? >> i'm almost 100% confident that the number one personality on fox news whose program is churning in $1 million a year as a cable program, he won't have a penalty imposed on him. >> lloyd, thank you so much. we have to leave it there. still ahead, our top story. the three men from new york city arrested for trying to help and even join isis. you are looking now at the brooklyn courthouse where they are expected to appear this afternoon. stay with cnn special coverage. my goal was to finally get in shape. not to be focusing again, on my moderate to severe chronic plaque psoriasis. so i finally made a decision to talk to my dermatologist about humira. humira works inside my body to target and help block a specific source of inflammation that contributes to my symptoms.

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this sunday cnn begins a special series called finding jesus, faith, fact, forgery. the reports uncover fascinating new insights into jesus using the latest scientific techniques and archeological research. joining me now is the author of "walking the bible, a journey by land through the five books of moses." we are talking about science and faith coming together here oftentimes controversial. has new technology been useful in helping us to understand more about jesus? has it helped to sort of test fact versus theory?

>> i think it's relevant to this because the shroud was found 700 years ago but it wasn't until 100 years ago that imagery first showed what this depiction allow people to think is actually the face and body of jesus. but here's an example where science and faith in some ways are in conflict. the latest testing shows that the shroud is actually only 700, 800 years old so that seems to contradict the story. i think it's -- >> it couldn't go way back to jesus' time you're saying. >> i think it's important to remember the bible is not a work of history. there is this sort of idea particularly in this country that if you can prove that one screw existed, you can prove that the whole machine existed. the bible is a work of faith, a work of meaning, and that really is its primary function to offer guidance. look i have been doing this for many years. you mentioned walking the bible. i went looking for noah's ark, i crossed the red sea. we don't need to prove the bible to take meaning from the bible. >> the series we are talking about that we will start here on

sunday it will take a look at six ancient relics and whether science can prove their authenticity. you mentioned the shroud of turin. you also said there are other items that are under scrutiny. >> exactly. it's important, pilgrimage is a very big business. 300 million people will go on a pilgrimage every year a third of all tourists worldwide. for a very long time there has sort of been this internal competition. you have bones that are related to relics you have pieces of wood that are the cross, you have shrouds. a lot of people are going to turin. they are very invested in this. the catholic church even pope francis hasn't said that it's true the shroud of turin, but what he said was it invites us to contemplate jesus. i think that that really is the way to look at this. not as a piece of proof, because we are not going to find a digital recording of god like some lost beetles recording we can put on the internet. what this is a way to encounter. how i see these relics is like a

literary moon rock. i'm dating myself but the idea was you touch the moon rock you have a sense of what it was like on the moon. i think to see this allows you to again contemplate the screw -- >> helps you to grow spiritually as an individual. >> exactly. >> there's value in that. >> that's where there's value. as you said the bible is a work -- if you and i left this studio and walked through, out through central park said to anybody we meet what's going on in your life we could find a story in the bible, a 2,000 year old document in some cases stories go thousands of years before that that is relevant to them. that's what the bible can do. it can help us in our own lives. we don't need to prove it. what we need to is encounter it and take meaning from it. >> what i'm hearing you say doesn't sound like the bible, if you're not saying it's a work of fact it still can be an individual's truth because of religion. it's not black and white. it's about belief. >> these stories, if you took any of these stories and passed them your editors they would say

we need more information. they were not writing history. they were writing the story of a people and how they came to be and what meaning it imparts to the rest of us. >> thank you for joining me. appreciate it. want to send it to my colleague jake tapper. "the lead" starts right now. a terrorist cell in new york city. i'm jake tapper. this is "the lead." the national lead. we're still waiting for a first glimpse at two of the men the fbi says pledged their lives to isis and schemed all kinds of deadly mayhem. they allegedly wanted to hijack a jet and fly it to the terrorists in syria. the fbi even says it has one of them on tape talking about gunning down new york's finest with a machine gun. more on the national lead. one of them wrote on social media that he wanted to become a martyr. he wanted to assassinate president obama. plus we have seen this movie before. a nasty snarl of crackling