tv At This Hour With Berman and Bolduan CNN July 13, 2015 8:00am-9:01am PDT
expected to speak around 6:15 eastern. thank you so much for joining me today. i'm carol costello. "at this hour with berman and bolduan" starts now. one of the world's most notorious drug lords is right now on the run after a daring escape from a maximum security prison. one expert says if el chapo isn't caught in the next 24 hours, kiss him good-bye. and we could be minutes away from history. we're expecting an announcement soon about a nuclear deal with iran you a about what sin siis this deal and who gave more? and in a new book atticus finch is portrayed as racist. what is behind harper lee's stunning twist? hello, ern. i'm john berman. >> i'm kate bald wynn.
happening right now, the world's most powerful and dangerous drug lord is on the loose after an escape from a maximum security prison in mexico. watt keen guzman nicknamed el chapo or shorty, he slipped through a hole in his prison cell shower into a mile-long underground tunnel apparently built just for him. and it wasn't just a tunnel. it was sophisticated with lighting and ventilation, even motorcycle on a track. >> a motorcycle. no run of the mill escape and no run of the mill dangerous fugitive. he is believed to have ordered the murders of more than 10,000 people. he's the kingpin of a global drug empire that supplies much of the cocaine, heroin, and marijuana sold in the united states. joining us now outside the prison just west of mexico city, a prison with a giant tunnel underneath it, polo sandoval. good morning, polo. what's the latest?
>> reporter: guys, good morning. very difficult to see that tunnel as it is underground, but it basically stretches from the prison facility that you see behind me and i'll show it to you as federal police continue on their patrols around the perimeter, and then extends just past really this road here up to a brick home that was under construction and that is where authorities say this very powerful, very dangerous, and very ruthful individual emerged saturday into sunday. this is an individual that authorities want to get their hands on and not just here in mexico but also in the united states. he's got several outstanding charges and there's several indictments as well for other states there. he is believed to have been responsible for the smuggling of what can only be estimated as tons of drugs not to mention the deaths of rival cartel members and innocent men, women, and children. so right now the search is on. i can tell you that there's a partial perimeter that's been set up in and around the prison. we're only an hour's drive from
the country's capital of mexico city, west of there. we're also seeing certain perimeters set up around some of the smaller towns. what's interesting though, guys, is that life seems to be moving forward for so many residents, particularly the people who live in this maximum security prison, the businesses are open, some of the simple cinder block homes, families are still going about their business. but, again, the main priority is to find out how he was able to escape and most importantly exactly where is this very, very dangerous man. guys? >> he was able to dig a tunnel with ventilation and a motorcycle underneath. not the kind of thing that generally happens without swoun kn someone know being it. >> let's discuss much more about this, much more about the kingpin and that elaborate escape. joining us is malcolm vooet, the author of "the last narco: inside the hunt for el chapo." . 's drug lord and he's overseeing an enterprise estimated to be
worth more than $1 billion but how dangerous is this man? >> it's a very tough question to answer. i'd love to portray him as the evil villain. right now i think he is probably a man on the run. how dangerous is he? time will tell. we'll be able to see what his agenda is now that he's escaped. is he trying to just flee into the mountains to retire, to live with his family happily ever after? or is he trying to retake control of the sinaloa cartel which has taken a big beating by law enforcement over the last six years, especially the last three. i think it's worth mentioning that the dea and mexican law enforcement have really punctured holes in his network, and so the question is, you know, what's his goal now? will he try and consolidate power or will he just go quietly and live out his days?
>> you know, you have this book about life on the run for this man. that's because he was on the run once before before they caught him again. you would think he is the last person you would ever allow to escape from a prison, and it wasn't just any escape, it was an elaborate escape with a tunnel and ventilation and a motorcycle underneath. how connected is he? if he had help, you know, would it be unthinkable to think he had help within the prison or perhaps even higher? >> i'm not going to speculate on corruption in mexican prisons. there have been plenty of cases in the past, and in the first instance of his, you know, his escape in 1993, there was certainly corruption involved. the levels of corruption, one thing i think is very important, a more serious thing that has to be considered right now is, for instance, if you're a guard, a security guard at one of these prisons guarding these top
criminals who do have connections and money, vast amounts of power and influence among the criminal world, do you -- these guards don't necessarily -- they're not very well paid, and they don't really -- do they have mechanisms for whistle blowing, for instance? if they hear rumors about tunnel building -- i mean, someone had to talk, right? do they have anyone they can tell? i think that's the important thing looking forward on a more serious note rather than just pointing fingers, et cetera, which will be done, is looking at how these places are policed and how -- whether guards have the right mechanisms to report w what they see as criminal activity. human rights sometimes visits the prisons, but not all the time. they're not always allowed access. that's an important thing to consider. >> malcolm, you write about life on the run, the hunt for el
chapo. you wonder and we all do what is his goal now that he's out, but where do you think he could be? where do you think he's going? >> i think that there are basically two options. and that's always been the option in mexico is stay in your home turf, the mountains, which is where he's from, the mountains of sinaloa where he's safe. it takes a few hours to get there for the military. by the time they get there, he's long gone, and then there are the big cities are actually great hiding places for these guys. you know, it takes a lot of guts to report a sighting of chapo guzman when there's no reward. the rumors can circulate but you have to have real intelligence to go after these guys. it is not as easy to catch them as i think we like to think.
>> well, this guy has made a tunnel system before to escape from places when he's been hunted and clearly he knows how to tunnel so catching him is not easy. malcolm, we have to go -- go ahead. >> okay. one of the things i wrote about in my book was that it was a hunt, but it's not this sort of dogged persistent hunt. these guys move and they're always going to be faster than the law i think unfortunately because they think like they do. they don't -- law enforcement -- the good law enforcement of this world follows procedures, hasbro si they have to deal with. these guys don't do that. they do what they want. >> right. >> and most of the time they're going to be one step ahead of the game. >> well, let's hope the mexican authorities can catch up to this man, one of the more powerful drug kingpins the world has seen. thought to be responsible for
the death of maybe 10,000 people. malcolm vieth, thanks very much. so negotiations over iran's nuclear program down to the wire. any minute now we could get a final agreement out of vienna. joining us to discuss these talks our senior correspondent nic robertson. nick, what's the latest? >> reporter: that's been the mood in the early part of the day, that everything was really close and it could be wrapped up this morning and that a deal with be done and announced. where we stand this afternoon, it's looking a little different from that. the briefings that we're getting at the moment both from iranian side and from western diplomats here tend to indicate this is slipping deep into the evening today and possibly may slip even into tomorrow. the sticking points as we've discussed so many times, the possible military dimensions, that is as iran uses nuclear technology to develop a weapon, that's an outstanding issue and one iran has raised fairly
recently, the lifting of an arms embargo that was put in place as part of a u.n. security council resolution. that's still in question. what weapons of mass destruction once you get a deal done here, it would go to up security council for a new resolution and the iranians would look for wording in that on the arms embargo that would give them some comfort. that seems to be one of the sticking points as well. so i think as everyone has seen, so many deadlines here come and go. june 30th, july 7th, july 10th, now july 13th. this deadline, too, may come and go. it's certainly, certainly going down to the wire, john. >> the deadlines in and of themselves don't seem to matter very much in this negotiation. the question is are they close to a deal or not? or is it slipping further away? nic robertson for us on the scene. let us know if you hear anything. thanks, nic. a drug lord so powerful he ordered the murders of 10,000 people. he breaks out of prison a second time. not just any breakout, through a tunnel so big you could drive a
motorcycle through it. who helped him? how high up does this go? and speaking of el chapo, donald trump tells america i told you so. next, a republican who supports trump, another who can't stand him takes on trump's momentum. and it's like finding out santa claus hates kids. the image of one of america's iconic heroes, a pillar of decency shattered. the new release that says atticus finch is a racist. say it ain't so, harper. say it ain't so. (wat(birds chirping)
but guess what? he came out of retirement for a moment at least to read a special top ten list dedicated to donald trump. >> number ten, that thing on his head was the gopher in "caddy shack." number nine, during sex donald trump calls out his own name. number eight, donald trump looks like the guy in the litsch boat b -- lifeboat with the women and children. number seven, he wants to build a wall. how about building a ball around that thing on his head. number six, trump walked away from a moderately successful television show for some delusional [ bleep ]. oh, wait that's me. number five, donald trump weighs 240 pounds, 250 with cologne. number four, trump would like all americans to know that that thing on his head is free range number three, if president, instead of pardoning a turkey on
thax, plans to evict the family on thanksgiving. number two, donald trump has hissed off so many mexicans he's starring in a new movie entitled "no amigos." the number one interesting fact about donald trump, thanks to donald trump, the republican mascot is also an ass. there you go. >> so trump may be comedy gold for david letterman but he's also making some of his fellow republicans and fellow republican candidates cringe, but is trump just saying what others are thinking? let's talk about it with cnn political commentator and jeb bush shorrer anna navarro and jeffrey lord who worked in the reagan white house and now a contributing editor to the american spectator and a supporter of mr. trump. jeffrey thank you so much for coming back in. >> thanks for having me. >> of course. donald trump is drawing big crowds over the weekend. he's not backing down. he's sticking with his stance on
his comments on immigration. he's also using a new line. the silent majority. the silent majority is back, he says. we're going to take our country back. if you're advising his campaign, would you advise him to use that line? is that good for the party? >> well, the silent majority originally came from richard nixon and i actually think it came from a couple pollsters before that. so it's old, it's sort of dusted off, but i think it's an accurate reflection of what's going on here, and i do think there are a lot of people -- this issue was down somewhere around 4% in the polls until president bush 43 came out and i'm going from anne coulter's adios america here, she does a good bit of research on this. when president bush 43 came out with his comprehensive immigration policies in 2006, suddenly this shot to 60% in the polls that opposed this. it went basically from nowhere. so i think he's got a point
about all of this and i think it's -- you know, at this point it's a fairly old point. >> anna, is it though the current thinking in the republican party, the establishment at least, isn't what the republican autopsy after 2012, wasn't what that was about the idea that there is a new majority in this country, that you need to talk to latinos? you need to find new ways to discuss immigration? so do you believe that the silent majority is where donald trump says it is or do you believe there's a new majority somewhere else? >> i think there's definitely a segment of the party to whom donald trump is speaking. we see it in the numbers. we see it in his popularity. you know, this has gone on now for almost a month. i don't think you can chalk it up just to celebrity status and just to name i.d., though i do think those two things are large parts of his popularity now and his relevance and why we're still talking about him on cable tv three-plus weeks after the fact and after his announcement. i don't think he's
representative of the republican party, and we've seen people, candidates like jeb bush, like marco rubio, like lindsey graham, chris christie, and the list goes on distance themselves, condemn his comments, and just say his tenor is not something that is reflective of the republican party. the sad thing is he's actually bringing out and talking about some legitimate policy issues. i think we need to have a discussion on sanctuary cities. we cannot have a free for all in cities around america where the federal government procedures and requests are being ignored. he's bringing up the good point about the corruption in mexico, which is, by the way, not newsworthy. anybody who doesn't know that the government and law enforcement in mexico is corrupt and inept has been living under a rock for the last 50 years. but we're not having the policy discussion because it's all getting lost in his barking. >> ana, are you shifting in your views a little bit? are you starting to like donald
trump because you sure -- >> oh, hell no, darling. i don't know what you're listen in my tone of voice that makes you think i'm liking donald trump. i dislike donald trump before it was popular to dislike donald trump. let me just be clear about that. i think he's an entertainer. i think you watch him in the same way you watch a car crash. but i do think that the sanctuary cities is a real issue and i think the corruption in mexico is a real issue. are we having a real discussion about it? no, because he's nothing but sound bites and offensive comments. >> ana, you brought up the term car crash. jeffrey, lindsey graham this weekend said donald trump is taking a wrecking ball to the republican party. do you think he is hurting the brand or do you think he's hurting the brand that many republicans right now want to portray? >> well, as you noted, i worked for president reagan, and president reagan went through this kind of thing where he was repeatedly accused of being -- before he was elected president by establishment republicans of being an extremist and out of
touch and some people even said he was a racist. all of this kind of thing. there is nothing new with this. this has been going on with moderate republicans and conservatives for decades. so here comes donald trump. the very fact that ana as you noticed is sort of hedging a little bit on this and talking about sanctuary cities -- >> what exactly am i hedging on? i have said over and over now for weeks that sanctuary cities are a legitimate issue and that donald trump is not a legitimate candidate. which part am i hedging on? go ahead and do your entire trump thing but leave me the heck out of it. do me that favor, will you? >> okay. >> i am not hedging on donald trump. i condemn his comments. i think they're racist and bad for the republican party. how is that for hedging? >> well, let me tell you, i think the republican party has a tendency to paternalize latinos. all the latinos we have in the country who came here legally who did the right thing are
being insulted here by the republican party -- >> thank you for telling me what should be insulting but you see i'm one of those latinos that came here with a visa on a plane that went through the process and, no, i don't think that the republican party is too paternalistic. i don't find marco rubio or jeb bush to paternal. now would you like to make a point z point? >> i don't think you're latino. i think you're an american. >> what am i? >> you're an american just like me and everybody else in this country who is here legally. >> i am an american. america is my home, i'm an american who was born in nick w rag what. naturalized under ronald reagan's -- now you've lectured me on how i should feel as a republican. now you've lectured me on what i'm hedging me and lectured me about what i am, do you have an actual point? >> are you not an american, ana?
>> respond? >> are you not an american? >> did i not just say i'm an american citizen? i'm a proud naturalized american. >> there are no latinos in this country. there are no african-american -- >> you're the one that brought up the term but go right ahead. >> we are all americans. >> uh-huh. >> and that's what we're talking about here. and we've got a lot of people who believe very strongly and you saw those people with donald trump over the weekend whose family members have been killed and they weren't getting any attention to this fact because they were killed by illegal immigrants. this is wrong. this is morally wrong. the republican party should never, ever be on the side of taking the civil rights of american citizens, having them lose their children because somebody is in this country illegally. that is wrong. >> the point you are -- >> ana and jeffrey, you both touched on points that i think this debate is now ignited. >> -- it does not call for
weeding out and immediately deporting criminal aliens. that's in every responsible comprehensive immigration reform that's been proposed in the last 10, 15 years, and i as somebody that came here legally, i as somebody that naturalized as an american, i am absolutely supportive of the first thing we do is get rid of those bad apples that came to this country and that did things wrong. they have no place in this country. >> jeffrey, if you had to enunciate what donald trump's plan is on immigration, immigration reform or change other than building a wall on the border, what's his actual policy proposal to fix the immigration problem that he talks about? >> the thing is that's the first step and we can't get people to agree on that first step. president obama won't agree to that first step. as a standalone, that's first thing. you know, again, anne coulter uses the analogy if your bathroom is being flooded with the water running, the very
first thing you do is turn off the water. that's where we have to start. then we go from there. but everybody wants to go down the road here, and we can't go down the road until this is accomplished, and there's nothing wrong with this. there is nothing wrong, and suggesting that millions of americans are somehow, you know, little david dukes because of this, that is a terrible thing to say about people. good people like jamil shaw, sr., an african-american who lost his son and felt he couldn't get any attention to this fact because the killer was an illegal immigrant. this is just morally wrong. we have to change this. >> and jeffrey, quick question, this has been raised a couple times and i want to get your take. i want to get ana's take on this as well. obviously you think donald trump has sparked a conversation. i think we can all agree on that because i don't think we'd be talking about immigration in these terms if he hadn't, do you think he is actually making a legitimate run for president? as ana points out, he's a celebrity. people know about him because of his show. he goes on these -- his speeches
are rambling and kind of nonlinear in where they are. do you think as a supporter of him he is making a serious run for president or he's just doing what donald trump has in the past always done? >> the only thing i'd say is we don't endorse candidates, so i'm not a trump supporter. but absolutely, and i would point out that we had all kinds of people saying he's not going to run and now he's running, and then they said he's not going to get anywhere and now he's at the top of the polls. i absolutely -- i mean, i have gotten to know him a little bit. i absolutely think he's serious. he's been talking about this kind of thing for a number of years. he really does believe this. he's quite sincere in this and i would also add, this business of being an entertainer, this is a guy who built this entire global trump organization from scratch. i mean, this is a serious businessman. this is a serious -- he >> he inherited --
>> i would take the inheritance he had any day. >> ana, i want to ask you a question here. when this all started, i guess it was 3 1/2 weeks ago with trump getting in the race or two weeks ago. i know you were hoping to dismiss this. you were laughing it off like a lot of people were saying this is a joke, let's just not pay attention to him and hope he goes away. but at this point it seems to me you are at least saying he's not going away. he's here, and you've got to deal with him as being a force at some level in this election. >> i have absolutely no idea, john, what's in his head. fortunately, i don't speak his language and i don't think like he does. i don't know how long he's going to stay. you know, there's some legal requirements to him staying in the race. he's going to have to file a financial disclosure. he has said repeatedly now that he plans to do so this week. it's got to be a complete financial disclosure under penalty of perjury. it's not like that one sheet of
paper that he brought out the day of announcement saying, hey, i'm very, very rich. i'm very rich. in case you haven't heard, i'm very rich. i'm worth $8 billion. he's going to have to put on paper where all of that is coming from and where exactly it is and, you know, what it is. whether he's going to do that or not, we don't know. it's a requirement to get into the debate. so, you know, we're going to see if he fills out the financial disclosures, the legal rirmen z requirements. if he goes through the hoops to get on the ballot in all of the 50 states. there's a lot of things that go into running for president. it ain't just saying i'm running for president. if you're going to mount a legitimate campaign, there's a lot of structure, a lot of requirements that have to be met. >> ana, jeffrey, thank you very much for the frank discussion. >> thank you, ana. >> let's do it again. ana, thanks. coming up for us, breaking news in the war against isis. we're getting record that iraq has launched a major offensive
against the terrorist organization in a key province. we'll talk about this very important assault in a moment. plus, the most powerful drug lord on earth, the last man you would ever want to escape from a prison, he escaped. we'll take you inside the secret tunnels with ventilation, lighting, and a motorcycle track. how did this happen? uthis isn't the mostne efficient way for people -or air to travel. awww! ducts produce uneven temperatures and energy loss. mitsubishi electric systems offer a better way with no new ductwork.... and lower energy bills. so everyone gets exactly what they want! mitsubishi electric cooling and heating. make comfort personal.
of prison. joaquin el chapo guzman is on the run again. he busted out of a maximum security prison in mexico city saturday night. >> el chapo cheped instepped in shower, crawled through a hole, and escaped through a tunnel. cnn went inside one of his escape tunnels from his last break out. just take a look at this. >> beneath this bathtub, a secret tunnel. so if you climb down the steps, you find yourself in the tunnel itself and you can see it's being quite carefully constructed out of wood. you have to crouch a little bit but you're quite mobile. and there's an electricity system running throughout it. the nearest other safe house from here is three kilometers in this direction. the constructed part of the tunnel ends here and if you go through this door, you find yourself in the sewage system, an ideal escape route. and the tunnel system comes out
right here in another safe house just down the road, and as you can see, it is a very similar setup to the previous one. >> this shows just how elaborate the escapes are and how it's been done before by this same man. joining us to discuss is alberto gonzalez, a former u.s. attorney general. it's great to see you. thank you so much for coming in. if you were sitting in the attorney general's seat right now, you hear that this notorious criminal has broken out yet again from a prison, what's your reaction? >> disappointment and a little bit of anger. obviously we have our own issues with people breaking out of prisons here in the united states so we can't be too hypocritical about it, but obviously the idea to have him extradited would have been an utmost priority and i remember back in 2007 mexico extradited 15 traffickers in january. we did that secretly. it required direct conversations between myself and the attorney
general of mexico. i didn't even tell the ambassador, the u.s. ambassador. i didn't tell the head of dea that we were doing this because it is such a controversial issue in mexico. we're worried about the level of corruption in mexico. therefore, we did it very, very secretly and we were able to extradite 15 top drug traffickers back in 2007. so there is a history of cooperation, and i'm sure that the attorney general of the united states is lamenting the fact that we weren't able to make that happen with respect to mr. guzman. >> you say you'd be disappointed and a little bit angry and you had a little grin on your face. i think you were speaking euphemistically. it sounds like you would have been a little bit furious. you know there's been some cooperation in the past, there's good cooperation between the nights and mexico on many issues, but one of the complicating factors in trying to catch drug lords down there, do you feel like you have 100% cooperation in mexico at all levels from the presidency all the way down to the streets? >> oh, i think you do have
cooperation certainly at the senior level but the closer you get down to the street, i think you have less confidence in the level of cooperation because there is a lot of corruption, a lot of money that changes hands. people live in fear not only for their own lives but the lives of their family, which results in greater cooperation with drug kingpins. so listen, it's clearly a challenge and it was certainly a challenge when i served as the attorney general and we try to work closely with mexican authorities but there are limits to what the united states can do in respecting the sovereignty of another nation and mexico is very, very jealous of its sovereignty. we always had to be very careful in trying to intrude too much into the sovereignty of mexico. as a result of that sovereignty, it presents limitations on our visibility in terms of what is going on in the law enforcement and in the prison community there in mexico. >> and there were conversations we're told when he was captured a year ago to have him
extradited to the united states because of these exact fears being one of them, is his ability to somehow miraculously get these amazing escape plans under way. i think you're kind of alluding to it. what is the resistance then if there's such a problem? what's the resistant in extraditing him to the united states states? how do those conversations go? >> first of all, it may occur attorney general to attorney general. it may occur deputy attorney general to the deputy there in mexico. so it's going to occur at a fairly high level for someone of this stature, but one of the things, one of the challenges we had with mexico for many years is that the resistance to extradite someone to a country that has a death penalty for example. you take that off the table in order to get them extradited into the united states. for some period of time in the early 2000s, the mexico supreme court held that extraditing someone to a country that had a life sentence, that wasn't allowed under the constitution. that changed after a period of time, so there's a different culture, a different legal
system that we have to maneuver around in order to be successful in getting an extradition from mexico. >> former attorney general alberto gonzalez. it's great to have you on this exact topic and that's exactly what we're thinking about, how well it worked in 2007 when you were able to get that kind of extradition of 15 drug criminals and how it clearly did not work the same this time. thank you so much for your time. >> good to be with you. >> thanks. all right. coming up for us, one of the great figures in all of american literature. the human so many of us wanted to be. the father so many of us wanted to be. atticus finch, is he a racist? a new book, a book out this week says yes. millions of american readers are going, no! this allergy season,
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we're learning this morning that iraq is making moves to take back important territory from isis. iraq's defense ministry has announced today it's launched a military operation to retake anbar province. >> so they claim the assault on the city of fallujah is under way. joining us to discuss this, what are we hearing on the ground? >> reporter: what we know is the iraqi ministry of defense announced saying they have launched an operation with joint iraqi forces, iraqi militias and security forces to regain
control of anbar province. we also heard from the shia militias, the iranian-backed and trained militias saying they have started this offensive. in the past week we have been hearing these moves, talk from these popular mobilization units saying that they have amassed troops, surrounded the city of falluj fallujah, they have 4,000 fighters involved in this fight, but we have heard, as you mentioned, john, we have heard such announcements in the past sshl aft especially after may with the fall of ramadi. a lot of concern what will happen. we have to wait and see how significant this is and if there's real movements on the ground that we haven't seen so far with previous announcement. a lot of concern about the civilians who remain in fallujah. witnesses we spoke to in the past week in the city say that
they're concerned isis will use them as human shields. >> people have been caught in the middle for nearly a year. thanks so much. coming up for us, we could be minutes away from history. we're expecting an announcement soon about a nuclear deal with iran. but who gave more in the end? that's a key question. plus, he was the moral compass for generations of americans. a towering literary hero. could it be that atticus finch is really a racist? the literary shake-up that's been nearly six decades in the making. the mercedes-benz summer event is here. now get the unmistakable thrill... and the incredible rush of the mercedes-benz you've always wanted. but you better get here fast... yay, daddy's here! here you go, honey. thank you. ...because a good thing like this won't last forever. see your authorized dealer for an incredible offer on the exhilarating c300 sport sedan. but hurry, offers end soon.
sanctions against iran could be lifted. >> joining us now is joe, a member of secretary of state john kerry's international security advisory board, also a member of the council of foreign relations and the author of "nuclear nightmares: securing the world before it is too late." joe, i know you're connected to what's going on right now in vienna. we were expecting maybe an announcement yesterday, told it could be hours away. this morning we were told it could be minutes away. it keeps on drifting a little bit for us. what's the situation on the ground in vienna that you're hearing? >> yeah, these negotiations have been a long time in coming, and you said a historic deal. that's right. we have been trying since the presidency of ronald reagan to roll back and contain iran's nuclear program. four presidents have tried, four have failed. it looks like president obama may have found the correct formula. this international coalition that has slapped sanctions on iran, forced them to the table, and now a negotiated deal that
will be a win/win for both sides. we have solved most of the major problems, most of the issues on how to roll back the program, the inspection regime to go in, but we're hung up on a couple last-second details. what exactly is the sequencing of the sanctions relief? what exactly does iran have to do and when do we start releasing some of those frozen funds? do we release the arms embargo that has stopped arms from going into and out of iran and if so, what is the sequencing of that? and finally making sure that our inspectors can go to some of these sensitive military sites. all of that is being hammered out in these last few hours. >> joe, i think folks who haven't been following this closely, they can ends why it would be so important that inspections be in place and there be real inspections, that those will be taking place. they understand why that would be important. why though the sequence of the sanctions? why does that keep tripping up these negotiations? >> yeah, well, iran would like to have all the sanctions lifted
at once. so their bank accounts unfrozen. we have $100 billion of their oil money that has been frozen in banks. they would like all the trade restrictions stopped at once, but we obviously want to see them implementing the deal, doing what they say they were going to do before we start releasing this, and we don't want a flood of money going into iran and having iranian leaders use it to buy new arms they might be able to ship, for example, to hassad in syria whom they support. so that's what the sequence is all about. i think they've reached a formula on their side. i think they've got something that will stretch it out, that will tie the sanction relief to iranian implementation. to iranian good behavior. but the iranians are tough bargainers. i do expect a deal to be announced late tonight vienna
time. >> could be the end game late tonight or tomorrow. thank you so much for being with us. appreciate. >> thank you, john, thank you, kate. a stunning twist nearly 60 years in the making. could atticus finch generally the moral compass to millions of readers, could he be oh so different than we originally thought. could he be a racist? they would be top awarded.ust se yeah. there better be some awards behind what you are paying for right? the final answer. chevrolet is the most awarded car company of the year. really? i was just surprised. i'm interested to learn more about chevy. let's check out these 2015 chevy's. it's like a luxury car. i was shocked. i mean, this is chevy?
when the new release of harper lee's book, the book sitting in the dust for 60 years, when it comes out tomorrow, a lot of people are getting a much different view of atticus finch that they thought they knew. >> you never really understand a person until you consider things from his point of view. >> so? >> until you climb inside of his skin and walk around in it. >> that's really one of the famous lines that everyone remembers from "to kill a mockingbird." for atticus finch fans and fans of "to kill a mockingbird" that's the atticus finch they have known and loved for half a century. now harper lee's new book "go set a watchman" could challenge readers to reassess and rethink this great protagonist. maureen corgan is the brook
critic for npr's "fresh air." maureen, thank you for coming in. you're one of the few people who have had a chance to read the whole thing and you describe the novel as messy. what does that mean? >> it is messy. i mean, if we take the other gin story of this novel at face value, it's a first draft to kill a mockingbird and it's sort of all over the place. there are a lot of dead patches in this novel but, of course, it's morally messy, too. because atticus in this novel which takes place in the mid-1950s is spouting views about race that none of us could have ever anticipated. >> so what do we do with this? she's shattered, she says "atticus is a racist, what do we do now?" i said "this is an alternate series where atticus turns out to be a racist but we can keep the book we now and love." do we have to reassess this
figure? what do we do this? >> i don't think we can read "to kill a mockingbird" anymore without this book and without this vision of atticus in our head. it's not just that his views on race are more nuanced or complicated. he's a segregationist. he's spouting eugenics theory. i mean, he says things like "the blacks of macom are child like." scout accuses him of sounding like hitler and goebbels. it's a very extreme position that atticus is taking. >> what do -- we all read this in school. this is the basis of where we all started loving "to kill a mockingbird" so much and atticus finch. what do you think english teachers will do with this now? >> i think english teachers will have to teach "to kill a mockingbird" with at least portions of "go set a watchman" side by side. i think they're going to have to
use these two visions of atticus for useful discussion. also, since the novels are set at different times, "to kill a mockingbird" is set in the depression, this is in the thick of the civil rights movement as it's gathering force, it could be useful in order to talk about people's resistance. >> but isn't it possible harper lee changed her mind? she wrote this first draft of "go set a watchman" request where atticus is a racist ander editor said "try it again" and she thought "i'm going to write a version of where atticus isn't a racist." >> you're believing the official story. i find this novel suspicious. it reads like a failed sequel. it doesn't read like a first draft of the novel we know and love. >> maureen corrigan, we're waiting to read it. thank you so much. >> thanks for breaking my heart, maureen, come back again. >> thanks so much for joining us