Skip to main content

tv   Anderson Cooper 360  CNN  September 18, 2017 9:00pm-10:00pm PDT

9:00 pm
what should i watch? show me sports. it's so fluffy! look at that fluffy unicorn! he's so fluffy i'm gonna die! your voice is awesome. the x1 voice remote. xfinity. the future of awesome. good evening. on top of the new category 5 hurricane now heading straight for u.s. territory in the caribbean, we have a cnn exclusive. sources say that u.s. investigators wire-tapped paul manafort under a warrant from a secret court before and after the election. joining us now with the latest is cnn's evan perez. pamela brown who broke the story
9:01 pm
and had the details about why someone was listening to someone so close to the president. >> sources tell us that the fbi got perms from the secretive surveillance court to monday tar paul manafort, the former trump campaign chairman before and after the election of the this is an extraordinary step for the fbi to do surveillance on a high-ranking campaign official. and of course, manafort is now at the center of the russia meddling investigation. we're told that there are intercepted communications that raise concern about whether manafort was encouraging russians to help with the campaign. now, other sources tell us that this intelligence was not conclusive enough. special counsel robert mueller's team has been provided all of these communications, anderson. >> and evan, what do you mean by encouraging? >> well, there's a lot we don't know about exactly what was said. but what we're told is that the fbi has communications between suspected russian operatives relaying what they claimed were discussions with manafort, as well as communications involving manafort. now, none of this has amounted to what people consider a
9:02 pm
smoking gun in this investigation. there's still more work to be done to determine whether there's a criminal violation here. we didn't get a comment from paul manafort spokesman, but he has previously denied that he ever knowingly communicated with russian intelligence operatives during the election. and he's also denied helping russia undermine u.s. interests. >> they monitored him two separate occasions or two separate times, correct. >> that's right. so the secret order began after manner fort became the subject of an fbi investigation back in 2014. now, that centered on work done by a group of washington consulting firms for ukraine's former ruling party. the surveillance was discontinued at some point last year due to lack of evidence. and then the fbi at some point restarted this surveillance after obtaining a new fisa warrant that extended at least into early this year, we're told. now, the sources say the second warrant was part of the fbi's efforts to investigate ties between trump campaign associates and suspected russian
9:03 pm
operatives. it's unclear when that new warrant started, but, anderson, as part of the fisa warrant we have learned that earlier this year the fbi conducted a search of a storage facility belonging to paul manafort. it's unclear what was taken after that search. and of course, then fast-forward several months later and then there was a raid on his home this past july by the fbi under robert mueller. >> do we know whether president trump spoke to manafort while he was under surveillance? is the president being recorded? >> well, we don't know exact, but what we've been told is the president and manafort were still talking into early this year, well after the campaign was over. and during that time the fbi was listening to paul manafort's phone so it's possible that those conversations were collected. >> evan, was the president right when he asserted in that tweet he said that. >> right. >> that i don't have the exact wording on me that obama tapped his phone. >> right. that his wires were tapped. well, the justice department has denied that the president's own
9:04 pm
lines were wire-tapped, but as we said, it is possible that he was picked up on manafort's surveillance. and he should with note that manafort does have a residence in trump tower. it's not clear whether the fbi was doing actual surveillance on him in there, but i can -- you can see the president's supporters coming out and saying that the president was right all along. >> appreciate it. a lot to dig into with his uniquely qualified panel tonight. our panel tonight, so, jeff, how significant is this and how tough is it to get a fisa warrant? >> it's -- it's very significant. first of all, you know, just to get a warrant like this, you have to persuade the court that there is probable cause to believe that this was the agent of a foreign government.
9:05 pm
thanks to the patriot act, the law passed after 9/11, that information can be shared with criminal investigators. the wall between counterintelligence and criminal has been broken down. so that's why this information can be passed to mueller. obviously what we don't know is what was the basis for the warrant. you know, what went into the statement that the fbi made to the judge to grant the warrant. and most importantly, you don't know what was said. we don't know what manafort said, we don't know who he was speaking to. but the fact that they got two warrants suggests that the first wasn't totally useless because it allowed them to get a second one. >> two fisa warrants? >> absolutely. based on evan and pamela's reporting, there were two separate warpts, one after the other. >> what do you make of that? >> so when you get a fisa order on a u.s. person, the standard is slightly higher than for a
9:06 pm
nonu.s. person. so you have to show a court not only that the person is an agent of a foreign power but they're pgel engaging in clandestine intelligence activities, knowingly being a spy. and once you get that order, you have to go back to the court every 90 days and show the court that you are in fact getting foreign intelligence information. if in that 90 day period you have not gotten that information just in that last 90 days, the surveillance has to cease. so as jeffrey says there could have been a gap where it seesed and if they find there's other information they're getting about his potential intelligence keks, they can use some of the intelligence they've gotten before, the new stuff -- >> how rare is it that they would have surveillance back to 2014 and then stop it because they didn't think they were getting anything and then restart it? >> i don't think it's necessarily unusual. again, this 90-day period there is to provide a check so that
9:07 pm
the government can't just sit there and listen and wait until something happens. if they're not getting it for 90 days, they have to stop and until they can get something else, that can corroborate or beef up and in this case it sounds like what started off as his contacts with the ukraine yans turned into additional contacts with the russians and that was able to restart the surveillance. >> if i can add just one point. the fisa court has often been accused of being a rubber stamp for prosecutors. this is the wheel word here. this judge, and we don't know who the judge was, had to know that paul manafort was likely speaking to the president-elect or president of the united states and they were not going to just nilly nilly give any sort of warrant. >> that's absolutely right. >> so i think the fbi must have had something of considerable interest to grant -- to get the judge to grant this order. >> it really seems like the big outstanding questions here are what exactly manafort did that
9:08 pm
encouraged the russians to help with the campaign according to the reporting and when exactly this second round of wiretapping began and then ended. >> we don't know yet who the person is or persons, plural, who talked to manafort, who were russians or ethno russians. what we do see here is that the fisa court found reasonable cause to have this surveillance under extraordinary circumstances. and it's part of a much larger pattern that we're seeing of events closing in on the president of the united states on his campaign, on his businesses, on his family. and we're also watching with the people around him, their interaction with a raging president about all of this happening at this time. and what we know now is because manafort has been heard on these wire taps that this gives prosecutors a great tool to ask manafort and others about these
9:09 pm
discussions, why were you having them? now, manafort has a fifth amendment right. he doesn't have to answer those questions. but why were you on the telephone with this gentleman or people in the first place. it's a huge investigative tool. the fact that there have been raids on his house, on his storage facility -- look, manafort has been in the cross-hairs of this from the beginning, and at the same time he has not even, i'm told, fully talked to his lawyers about many aspects of what he knows and what he might not know. there also is the whole question of so far no one in this investigation among the principles who are being looked at by mueller, mr. flynn, mr. manafort, others, have so-called flipped and are talking to mueller and spilling their guts about anything. the one person that's being looked at is perhaps more favorable to get some information from, i'm told, is rick dearborn, who is the white
9:10 pm
house assistant to the president for legislative affairs. that's not to say he's done anything wrong, but he was witness to some of the discussions that went into the airplane discussion in which the president drafted a statement defending his son donald trump that now is the heart of part of mueller's obstruction investigation. so what i'm getting at here in this roundabout way is things closing in. and when you have a fisa court enabling this, that makes the pressure on the president and those all around him even greater. >> john, i mean, how do you see this as somebody who has seen this from the pointy end of the spear? >> i see unusual aggressiveness by this prosecutor. i must -- one of the things, first reactions i had, i recall when i was cooperating with the prosecutors, they asked me to wear a wire and to go meet with my colleagues. i refused to do that.
9:11 pm
so prosecutors like wire-tapped information or somebody who will go out and gather it for them. this is long before they knew nixon had a taping system. so that doesn't surprise me totally. but we now have a much higher standard with the fisa court, and that shows the seriousness with which they're treating this investigation, and that's what i find most striking at this point -- >> so, john, when the president tweeted out before, terrible, just found out that obama had my wires tapped in trump tower just before the victory. nothing found. this isn't mccarthyism. then he went on to say how long has -- this is nixon, watergate, bad or sick guy. does he now get to say that he was right? >> well, it's a little closer, but it's not exactly right. i understand from the cnn's reporting that there was no evidence that trump himself was wire-tapped or that manafort's apartment in the trump towers
9:12 pm
was wire-tapped. so there is no evidence that the trump towers as the president claimed, had been wire-tapped. also, the justice department and fbi i believe formally denied that charge. so it's a little closer, but not a horseshoe at this point. >> it's significant that the fbi and the department of justice said that trump -- >> meaning that he was not a target. and even if trump were picked up in this kind of fisa surveillance, he would normally be minimized, which means that they would screen out what he was saying and his name -- or his identity would be masked in the communication. and the only way that they would reveal to anyone looking at it who it was that manafort was talking to is if they needed to know the identity of the person in order to make sense of the communication or it gave additional information. >> well w it would be minimized if he was not involved in the
9:13 pm
investigation. >> absolutely. that's right. >> but if he was involved. >> that's right. >> i mean -- >> if he was just talking to manafort about campaign strategy or about nothing to do with collusion or anything like that. >> right. it would be minimized. but if they were talking about russia. >> that's right. >> trump would be -- >> so if it's relevant to getting the foreign intelligence information and the investigation, then they would. but he still wouldn't be considered a target. that's an ins dental communication. >> so we've got to take a break. coming up next, the aggressive nls that we were talking about. also fb, hurricane maria. we are following closely now a category # 5 storm. tracking toward puerto rico. hard to believe. we'll tell you where it is and where it's heading. the so i've asked chase sapphire reserve cardmembers to scout the world to find my next vacation. dija, where is that? i'm on a rickshaw in japan. he's so fast! this is delicious.
9:14 pm
i'm sorry. do you guys know who james corden is? don't ask them that, it's embarrassing. no. okay, that is embarrassing. sapphire reserve, from chase. make more of what's yours.
9:15 pm
steve chooses to walk over the26.2 miles,9 days... that's a marathon. and he does it with dr. scholl's. only dr. scholl's has massaging gel insoles that provide all-day comfort to keep him feeling more energized. dr. scholl's. born to move. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ sfx: t-mobile mnemonic sfx: t-mobile mnemonic sfx: t-mobile mnemonic t-mobile's unlimited now includes netflix on us. that's right, netflix on us.
9:16 pm
get four unlimited lines for just forty bucks each. taxes and fees included. and now, netflix included. so go ahead, binge on us. another reason why t-mobile is america's best unlimited network. sfx: t-mobile mnemonic u.s. investigators wire-tapped paul manafort under secret court every court orders before and after the election.
9:17 pm
there's new reporting tonight in "the new york times" on details including how investigators executed the search warrant on manafort's home. the time's headline mueller inquiry sets tone with shock and awe approach. the piece describes federal agents picking the lock on his home as he slept, taking binders full of documents and copying computer files. after special counsel mueller issued him a warning through his prosecutors saying we are planning to indict you. quite a wake-up call. steve, first of all, i'm just wondering what you make of this because part of the reporting is that part of what the fbi is going on or what mueller's team is going on are conversations among some russians about what they had gotten from mueller or basically conversations among russians. those, i imagined, would be kind of precarious to put a lot of faith in because people can be bragging about their access to
9:18 pm
an incoming president. >> well, first, anderson, it's quite remarkable that the fbi, which is a group of patriotic, very professional and very nonpartisan folks had sufficient evidence to get not one but two fisa warrants to collect information, counterintelligence information on mr. manafort. so that in and of itself, who is the campaign manager at the time, of course, and that's quite remarkable. what was going on in those conversations, there has been reporting that these were perhaps conversations with russian operatives. that would be something that if they had a relationship with mr. manafort, they would have not wanted to have had on the telephone. they would have preferred to have been as discrete as possible unless they were trying to bring him along and not cross that bridge into a more discrete type of investigation. it is quite remarkable that they had the level of information needed to conduct this kind of surveillance to try to find
9:19 pm
russian operations that touched paul manafort. >> he was campaign chairman was his official title. if it was 2014, that was before he was on the campaign. >> that's right. >> it was really on the second time that he was deeply involved. >> the timing of these warrants is very tricky and it does not establish that this was done at the time that he was the campaign chairman, from what i could see. >> yeah. it seems unclear exactly when, because apparently that meeting in that donald trump jr. had which has also clearly been of interest, that apparently according to the reporting was not on there, the fbi was not monitoring that or listening in on that. jeff, what do you make of according to "the new york times" that prosecutors have told paul manafort he's going to be dietindicted? >> i think it means he's going to be indicted. >> it's not a threat. >> no. my experience with federal prosecutors is they don't
9:20 pm
threaten indictments unless they're really prepared to do it. there's actually a formal process where if you were being investigated, you can ask for what's called a target letter asking for your status. are you a witness, which means you're not going to be dietindi, are you a subject which is someone they're looking at or are you a target. when you get a target letter, it's a virtual certainty that you're going to be indicted. it sounds like they either gave manafort a target letter or told him orally that he is a target. and it's just not -- i mean, obviously it's not out of the realm of possibility, but if in a high-profile environment like this prosecutors told paul manafort that he's going to be indicted, he's going to be indicted. >> do you agree? >> i think that's -- >> let's be clear -- >> hold on. >> i think that's especially true for robert mueller. he's no nonsense and going after everything he can. but i don't think he's going to gra tu we tusel try to
9:21 pm
intimidate anybody in the office. i don't think he needs to. he's going to get the evidence that he needs to actually bring charges. >> carl. >> can i be a little clear about what he may or may not be indicted for because it's no surprise that he is going to be indicted. that it is very likely that the indictment will have to do with failure to renalster and follow procedures for failing to register as a foreign agent under the foreign agent registration act and that the idea behind an indictment is to try, as might happen with flynn also, under the same provisions of the foreign agent registration act, is to try and get manafort or flynn and others in this position to talk. it's not at all clear that these indictments that might be forthcoming would have anything directly to do with clugsz with the russians or even with a cover-up in regard to what's happened in the election with supposed events related to
9:22 pm
russia. this too can be a tool to try and get more information. so i think we need to not jump too far ahead. >> let me just add one point that i think is -- we sometimes miss is, you know, collusion is a word we throw around a lot about this investigation. >> yeah. >> was the government of russia colluding with the trump campaign. there is no federal crime called collusion. it's not even clear that it's illegal for there to be some sort of coordination. it would be outrageous. it would be improper, it would be a violation of our traditions, but it is not clear that that's a federal crime. and i think that's one of the peculiar arts of this federal investigation that is every it is aimed at disclosing something that may itself not be a federal crime. >> and i think it might be a little bit more than -- i think there might be a little bit more than the foreign registration act because we know that when manafort's home was searched,
9:23 pm
they took out boxes of documents, financial documents. you mention that had they had taken photos of his expensive suits. they looked in the storage facility. if the only indictment that mueller potentially had was for the foreign agent registration act, that would be incredibly surprising. it wouldn't match up with what they're looking for. and it is very weak. it only has a five year penalty. so i think there's got to be more on the table. >> john dean, when you look at the tactics that mueller and his team are using, i'm wondering what you make of them. do you see them as being -- the times referred to it as kind of a shock and awe, kientd of an aggressive approach in some cases with some people, not ns well those in the white house now. >> well, i've looked at most of the post watergate investigations, anderson, and i must say this is much more aggressive than the norm. these are all high-profile investigations where the special counsel or the independent counsel under the former act knew they were in the spotlight during their investigation, that
9:24 pm
they were under certain scrutiny themselves and they proceeded accordingly given a lot of courtesies to the targets of their investigation. that's not happening here. it appears in this investigation they're worried about maybe we have a spy in our midst is what i'm struck -- the fact that they've used the fisa court twice, and they're trying to root it out and not prevent any damage that sitting on their hands might cause. >> he makes a really good point here. search warrants are unusual in white collar cases. not unprecedented, but the fact that they would go search someone's house at 6:00 in the morning, it's unusual. >> all right. when we come back, more on paul manafort, the wiretapping, a member of the house intelligence community weighs in on our exclusive reporting ahead. are taught you're not supposed to do. you seal it and send it back and then you wait for your results. it's that simple.
9:25 pm
it can seem like triggers pop up everywhere. luckily there's powerful, 24-hour, non-drowsy claritin. it provides relief of symptoms that can be triggered by over 200 different allergens. live claritin clear. if you have moderate to severe plaque psoriasis,... ...isn't it time to let the real you shine through? maybe it's time for otezla (apremilast). otezla is not an injection or a cream. it's a pill that treats plaque psoriasis differently. with otezla, 75% clearer skin is achievable after just 4 months,... ...with reduced redness,... ...thickness, and scaliness of plaques. and the otezla prescribing information has... requirement for routine lab monitoring. don't use if you're allergic to otezla.
9:26 pm
otezla may cause severe diarrhea, nausea, or vomiting. tell your doctor if these occur. otezla is associated with an increased... ...risk of depression. tell your doctor if you have... ...a history of depression... ...or suicidal thoughts,... ...or if these feelings develop. some people taking otezla... ...reported weight loss. your doctor should monitor your weight and may stop treatment. other side effects include upper... ...respiratory tract infection and headache. tell your doctor about all the medicines you take... ...and if you're pregnant or planning to be. ask your dermatologist about otezla today. otezla. show more of you. 83% try to eat healthy, yet up to 90% fall short on getting key nutrients. let's do more. one-a-day men's. complete with key nutrients we may need, plus heart health support with b vitamins. one-a-day men's.
9:27 pm
9:28 pm
throughout history, the one meal when we come together, break bread, share our day and connect as a family. [ bloop, clicking ] and connect, as a family. just, uh one second voice guy. [ bloop ] huh? hey? i paused it. bam, family time. so how is everyone? find your awesome with xfinity xfi and change the way you wifi. weapon don't yet fully know how tonight's cnn exclusive reporting on the investigation of paul manafort ties or fits the larger puzzle, only that it seems to be a significant piece of it. to better weigh how important it could be we're joined now by a member of the house intelligence committee. thanks for being with us. first of all, what is your
9:29 pm
reaction to news that paul manafort had been wire-tapped under secret court orders out of concern that he had encouraged the russians to help with the campaign? >> good evening, anderson. the russians were determined and sophisticated in the way that they interfered with our elections and we want our investigators to be just as determined and sophisticated in the way that they unravel what the russians did. if they are not, the russians will get away with it. so if this is in fact true, that's encouraging. they're using every legal means available to understand what the relationships were between donald trump's campaign chairman and other associates and even perhaps candidate trump at the time himself and the russians. >> did you or anyone on the intel committee know that he had been wire-tapped? >> anderson,as yes or no to that, but, you know, we are also seeking to bring in mr. manafort as well as roger stone, carter page, everyone who was included on the june 9th e-mail, and we've already as you know had
9:30 pm
our first round of interviews with jared kushner and expect to bring him back. >> so robert mueller and his team of investigators have provided details of the wire tap with the intel committee. will they try to get that information as well? >> again, anderson, can't go into the class fight nature of our investigation, but i'll tell you that manafort is important because he presided over a time of intense activity by the russians, the summer of 2016. you know, that's when the june 9th meeting took place. that's when the convention occurred, when the platform change happened in the republican party was pro russia. that's when carter page traveled over to moscow with permission of the campaign. all a good chunk of the time that manafort was there. so he was a central figure when russia's interference in the campaign was at peak performance. >> there is this reporting in "the new york times" that when the fbi raided his home they
9:31 pm
picked his lock and that mueller's team told manafort they are planning to indict him. i'm wondering what your reaction to that is, if you believe there is a pending indictment against manafort? >> you know, that would be -- if it's happened, it would be under seal. if it hasn't, you know, of course the grand jury and the investigators would know. you hope that he would for the sake of the country cooperate and if he knows something about other u.s. persons who worked with the russians that he would be forthcoming about that. that's something we haven't seen yet. and what's so frustrating is we've seen so many denials from the president and his family and the campaign about their prior personal political and financial ties to russia and have only acknowledged them when thief been yonltd by either the press or house and senate investigation. and so it's time to be straight with the american people and we would get to the bottom of this much faster. >> thank you so much. >> david, as a long time washington veteran i'm wondering
9:32 pm
how big a deal is this, is the news that manafort was wire-tapped? >> listen, it's a significant story. we're still in the preliminary stages of understanding it, but when you -- you do need the top justice department officials to sign off on this. and it was -- started before mueller got there. i think both those facts are very significant. it does raise the question of whether they're trying to flip manafort or not. this certainly indicates that he's in grave legal jeopardy. you know, they had the wire tap and basically they weren't able to come up with evidence, but then they were able to get a second time around, get it approved. that suggests there's something here, incriminating and he's going to be under a lot of pressure now to flip. and he may well face indictment or he may face some combination thereof. >> do you think that they could be using -- i mean, as was
9:33 pm
suggested before, the charge of him, you know, working as a foreign agent without registering, use that as a method to get him to flip if he has other information? >> yes. absolutely. i mean, the more they can pile up on him, the multiple charges, then the incentive to cooperate goes way up as you well know. i do emphasize we're still in the early stage. there's a lot we don't know about this. it's breaking. it's yet another dark cloud and i think they get darker with regard to manafort. he and general flynn appear to be two of the principle players. when you raid somebody's home that signals, a, you're serious and b, you're going to take him down unless he cooperates. >> i'm wondering as someone who has worked in white houses what president trump must be thinking about this or reacting to this?
9:34 pm
on the one hand he had sent out those tweets long ago saying that he just learned that obama was tapping his wires in trump tower, something that justice department and fbi had said didn't happen, no evidence of. i assume he could now say well, look, you know, there was some wiretapping going on. >> there -- well, there was wiretapping under a federal court order. a federal court approval. and with top justice department officials in his own justice department, it appears. maybe it's just the obama team. we'll have to wait and see. but, you know, there's an additional question, anderson, which i just don't know the answer to and what i think would be driving the president nuts is how did he ever get past the screen to be made chairman of the campaign. if there was enough going on legally in the background that somebody should have gotten
9:35 pm
notice that there was something really questionable if not fishy about his background, why did they put him in there? president trump must be really angry at his hand lers for letting him have the reins because obviously the omt iks of having your campaign chairman -- >> but at the time it was a pretty bare bones campaign. it was sort of free wheeling. there would be lewandowski there and hope hicks and that was the inner circle. i'm wondering how much vetting there was done on anyone. >> well, that's a very, very good question, but typically, you know, a more establishment figure would pick up a lot of rumors and gossip and know that there's something out there and i think this is a vulnerability that trump had. he much didn't have the powerful inner circle that knew what was going on advising him.
9:36 pm
he's got a right to be frustrated about that. i'm sure he's very frustrated. just when he thinks he may be turning the corner working with the democrats. i think this is a blow to the president and it really dish it does send a signal that at least a couple of people in the inner circle, and paul manafort was in the inner circle as chairman for a period of time, they just can't deny that. >> yeah. >> that they brought in a guy who is under this much of investigation is sort of -- it's pretty stunning. i've never heard of anybody being hired in a major campaign or white house position who was under investigation in this way. and frankly, why the hell didn't manafort tell them? it was totally unfair of him to walk in there if it was not known. >> yeah. >> under the circumstances. >> a lot of dwe. there are also new details about how president trump's own attorney is reacting to the special counsel investigation. a new york times reporter overheard a conversation at a popular lunch spot. what he said in a moment. yeah, i got some financial guidance a while ago.
9:37 pm
how'd that go? he kept spelling my name with an 'i' but it's bryan with a 'y.' yeah, since birth. that drives me crazy. yes. it's on all your email. yes. they should know this? yeah. the guy was my brother-in-law. that's ridiculous. well, i happen to know some people. do they listen? what? they're amazing listeners. nice. guidance from professionals who take their time to get to know you. for tech advice. dell small business advisor with one phone call, i get products that suit my needs and i get back to business. ♪ whentrust the brand doctors trust for themselves. nexium 24hr is the number one choice of doctors and pharmacists for their own frequent heartburn. and all day all night protection. when it comes to frequent heartburn, trust nexium 24hr.
9:38 pm
stay with me, mr. parker. when a critical patient is far from the hospital, the hospital must come to the patient. stay with me, mr. parker. the at&t network is helping first responders connect with medical teams in near real time... stay with me, mr. parker. ...saving time when it matters most. stay with me, mrs. parker. that's the power of and. ♪ ♪ when does a business trip really start?
9:39 pm
♪ ♪ the global lounge collection from american express offers you a place to prepare and recharge at over one thousand airport lounges worldwide. ♪ ♪ the world is yours, with platinum. backed by the service and security of american express. ♪ ♪
9:40 pm
we have yet another russia related headline tonight. white house lawyers are reportedly disagreeing over how much to cooperate with the
9:41 pm
russia probe but how we know this is almost as interesting as what we know. according to "the new york times" one of their reporters overheard president trump's lawyer ty cobb talking openly and casually about mcgahn to another lawyer in full earshot of anybody walking by. i mean, jeff, these are, you know, high-powered attorneys. does it make any sense -- you hear people in airports yacking on the phone. you hear doctors talking about patients, things you shouldn't hear. but a lawyer at this level talking in a restaurant like this. >> i ride the asell la a lot between new york and washington, the train. people are talking loud. you know, you often think to yourself, people couldn't do the did you mean things that they do, but they do. and he -- and apparently, you know, thoo he is are too very experienced lawyers. this is a very con inspire with us place. it's right by the offices of the new york times. ken veg yell is a reporter of
9:42 pm
the new york times. did he the good alert journalistic things. when people are loudly talking about news worthy topics he listened and he found out that what -- the controversy here is actually a familiar one for everyone -- for these white house investigations. the issue of how much you want to cooperate -- >> right because the president's own lawyer apparently wants to cooperate more, but the white house counsel, don mcgahn has concerns about protecting the presidency and ramifications long beyond the trump administration. >> that's right. and there's nothing sinister about that kind of debate. those are good faith debates that lawyers have. the question that is particularly compelling is a reference, apparently, that ken vogue yell overheard to documents that don mcgahn has in his safe that has not been disclosed. that certainly will be of interest to mueller
9:43 pm
investigators. >> don, does this seem crazy to you? >> well, you know, given the current rules of professional conduct, it raises some interesting questions. first of all, dowd, the outside lawyer, he represents the president personally. the special counsel, ty cobb, as well as mcgahn both represent the office of the president. that's who their client is. the only one who really has attorney-client privilege is dowd. so he is the one that apparently is asking for more to be withheld, as is. >> mcgahn. >> ty cobb and mcgahn is the one who is withholding. so it's a very interesting set of conflicts there given who their client is. >> so i mean, that's interesting, john, and jeff,
9:44 pm
this is right, then. ty cobb represents the presidency. >> he works for the government. >> so president trump doesn't have the same kind of attorney-client privilege with him. >> that's right. actually, one of the unresolved questions is what kind of attorney-client privilege government lawyers have with their clients within the government. it's quite clear that john dowd, who is an oud lawyer, has an attorney-client privilege with donald trump, the human being. but how much can be protected in conversations within the government between don mcgahn and the president, between ty cobb and the president, among those lawyers who work for the government, that's a complicated and unresolved question. and i think john dean is right that when the two lawyers speak, it's not exactly clear what the privilege is. what is clear is if you're talking loudly in a restaurant, anybody can listen. >> carl, would breaking watergate have been easier if john dean and other were
9:45 pm
blurting stuff out during lunch near the "washington post." >> well, it would have been nice if they were there for breakfast and we were right next to them. but i think there's something very important that's happened here and what we are seeing in this argument among lawyers and their concern about the vulnerability of the president of the united states. and what these lawyers know and incidentally dowd is the one who really counts because he is trump's lawyer. the others are not. trump also has a real estate lawyer who is absolutely central to this because the prosecutors are looking at trump's real estate and tax records, and they are closing in on that aspect of trump and his organization, despite the fact that trump has said this is a red line. what we're seeing here is, first of all, it is now definite, definitive, and i can say this with some authority, that what the intelligence community and
9:46 pm
under donald trump, not under obama, has found is that the evidence of russian interference on behalf of hillary clinton was. more effective and farther advanced than had been thought earlier. so that dynamic is driving an awful lot perform what we're seeing. >> carl, helping hillary clinton, you're saying? >> that the russians' interference was -- i'm sorry, pardon me. you're exactly right. was intended to hurt hillary clinton. i got it exactly backwards there. but yes, that that evidence is much stronger since donald trump has become president, developed by the intelligence community. and that's part of the dynamic here of the fact that they were trying to hurt her campaign here and get donald trump farther toward the white house. >> yeah. >> and then you also have one more element here, and that is
9:47 pm
this question of obstruction of justice and possible pardons, which is under discussion among people in the white house now. >> carl bernstein, john dean, thank you very much. up next, the last thing this part of the world needs, hurricane maria. what happens after that still a question mark. we've got the latest forecast and speak with someone who is riding out the hurricane in the caribbean.
9:48 pm
sfx: t-mobile mnemonic sfx: t-mobile mnemonic sfx: t-mobile mnemonic
9:49 pm
t-mobile's unlimited now includes netflix on us. that's right, netflix on us. get four unlimited lines for just forty bucks each. taxes and fees included. and now, netflix included. so go ahead, binge on us. another reason why t-mobile is america's best unlimited network. sfx: t-mobile mnemonic this inot this john smith.smith. or this john smith. or any of the other hundreds of john smiths that are humana medicare advantage members. no, it's this john smith. who we paired with a humana team member to help address his own specific health needs. at humana, we take a personal approach to your health, to provide care that's just as unique as you are. no matter what your name is. ♪
9:50 pm
♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ steve chooses to walk over the26.2 miles,9 days... that's a marathon. and he does it with dr. scholl's. only dr. scholl's has massaging gel insoles that provide all-day comfort to keep him feeling more energized. dr. scholl's. born to move.
9:51 pm
9:52 pm
9:53 pm
>> but not in the same way that irma did. this high pressure here is what's steering maria. if it hold where is it is, it will wrap back around. the american model is banking, anderson, that that high begins to shift to the west. that's what would veer it to the u.s. you're talking seven days out and a lot can change in that time frame. >> we'll keep watching it, alison, thanks very much. >> dominique is about to get hit. i just spoke to a man who is riding it out on the island. john, where are you and what are conditions like right now? >> it is unsafe to walk out of
9:54 pm
the door. things are flying in the air, debris flying in the air. we lost power about 40 minutes ago. there are buildings that have backup generators but for most of the natives here, that's not an option. the winds are howling, i'm not sure if you can hear that in the background and heavy, heavy rain. >> are you in your own house? >> i'm in my own apartment, yes. we're all a bunch of almost 500 medical students attending the roth medical university here on the island, predominantly all of them are american or kca nad ya. >> do you have supplies for the next couple of days? >> we don't think we'll have power for the next couple of days. the campus will have power but
9:55 pm
the city, the rest of the island may not have power for the next couple of days. >> do you have food and water stored up? >> yes, the university warned us well in advance, so i've completely stocked up, everyone stocked up on water and nonperishable food items. >> in preparation for this have you seen people boarding up their houses, businesses boarding up? does it seem like the island is ready for this? >> yes, because they had a tough time two years ago when erika hit them. it was supposed to be a tropical storm, but it hit like a hurricane and they didn't have water for two weeks. so yes, they're boarded up and waiting to see what happens. >> how do you feel? >> i'm okay. i'm sitting at home, reading my lectures waiting for the winds to die down.
9:56 pm
>> you have a couple hours ahead of you. appreciate what you talking to us. >> no problem, have a good day. >> we're going to keep an eye on the track of hurricane maria. sources telling cnn they wiretapped paul manafort before and after the election. elton, what are you up to? i'm having breakfast in uganda. uganda be kidding me, elton! it's a... it's a joke. james, we're going to look for gorillas! hang on, what? that's a real silverback gorilla. look at it! no, don't look at it. shhhhh stay. okay. i'm freaking out! sapphire reserve, from chase. make more of what's yours. helping small businesses.ut, jamie -- damage your vehicle? we got you covered.
9:57 pm
[ glass shatters ] property damage? that's what general liability's for. what?! -injured employee? -ow. workers' comp helps you pay for a replacement. what's happening? this is carla. how's it going? and if anything comes up, our experts are standing by. ♪ boo! find fast relief behind the counter with claritin-d. strut past that aisle for the steroid free allergy relief that starts working in as little as 30 minutes. and contains the best oral decongestant. live claritin clear with claritin-d.
9:58 pm
9:59 pm
10:00 pm
breaking news tops the hours. it's a cnn exclusive, sources say u.s. officials wiretapped paul manafort from a secret court before and after the election. joining us is page la brown who broke the story and have the details about why the government was listening to someone so close to the president. pam, what have you learned? >> and rson, sources tell us that the fbi got permission to monitor paul manafort before and after the election. this is an extraordinary step for the fbi to do surveillance of a high-ranking campaign official. and, of course, manafort is at the center of the russia meddling probe. we're told that are intercepted