tv CNN Newsroom With John Berman and Poppy Harlow CNN March 13, 2018 6:00am-7:00am PDT
wanted to sort of move ahead with this other big headline of the day by making public this desire to shake up his national security team. >> abby, thank you very much. we know you'll be reporting all morning on this. david chalian, thank you. tony blinken, thank you for calling in. appreciate the perspective. never a dull morning. >> nope. cnn's breaking news coverage will continue right now. stay tuned. cnn "newsroom" with john berman starts now. >> there is major breaking news this morning from the trump administration. just moments ago the president announced that rex tillerson is out as secretary of state. ousted would be more accurate here, to be replaced by the current head of the cia mike pompeo. the president says gina haspel, the deputy director of the cia will secede him as director. there might be some issues which we'll get into in a moment.
cnn's abby phillip at the white house. we understand, abby, the secretary of state was informed of this on friday. >> reporter: that's right, tillerson was informed while he was traveling in africa according to sources. he was told by the president that the president wanted him gone. that coincided around the same time we were learning there were going to be negotiations, potentially a meeting with north korea. senior administration official telling cnn's boris sanchez that the president felt like with the north korea negotiations on the horizon it was a good time for a transition. this tillerson departure is something that we have been waiting for and perhaps expecting for several weeks now. tillerson told people he might be only staying in the administration for about a year, and we were coming well up on that timeline. beyond that we know there were persistent tensions between the president and his secretary of state. they didn't see eye to eye on issues both of temperament and
policy. tillerson as recently as the last 24 hours was contradicting the white house when it comes to the issue of russia. we're seeing the president replace him with mike pompeo, the current cia director, someone we know briefed the president in person virtually every day, in part because the president likes the way he's briefed by pompeo. there's a lot of trust in that raip. in turn, pompeo has a lot of respect on the hill. i think this partnership between the president and pompeo is one that has only grown in the last several months. it seems a very natural transition. the president announcing he's going to be promoting the current deputy director gina haspel, a 0-year veteran of the cia. there are some reports about her time as a clandestined agent in
that agency during the bush administration when she was part of the sort of -- the torture programs that existed at that time. so it will be an interesting confirmation hearing for her, of course. this is as close to an orderly transition as i think we will get here in this white house. pompeo moving over from the cia and the president moving someone up from already within the ranks of that agency. >> abby phillip, stand by. i'm joined now by cnn diplomatic and military analyst, retired rear admiral john kirby, a former state department spokesman among other things. admiral kirby, this comes 24 hours after the secretary of state made a statement directly in opposition to what the white house was saying. this was in response to the british prime minister condemning russia for poisoning a spy on british grounds. the white house would not go as far as to say russia did it.
rex tillerson says we're outraged that it appears russia engaged in such behavior and now he's out. >> now we know he knew he was being fired on friday. he felt probably lessen cumbered to be anything less than completely honest about what we know russia's role was in this attack in great britain. as abby said, this is a long time coming. he probably felt free to speak a little more since he knew he was getting fired. now we know why he cut his trip short. they said it was to return for urgent business. obviously this is the urgent business. this is a relationship fraught with difficulty since almost the very beginning. what i found really interesting about abby's opening with you, john, the bit about north korea. it seems to me, even if you don't like your secretary of state, this is a horrible time to be swapping out your chief diplomat when you're about to enter probably the most high stakes political diplomatic channels that we've seen in recent years, and especially
when the secretary of defense and secretary of state have such a close relationship. they all most do nothing without checking with one another. it's a very functional relationship inside the administration. at this critical time in north korea, i would be very concerned about that. >> that's exactly the time to do it, the white house says. our reporting from boris sanchez at the white house is that the president wanted new blood heading into the north korea talks. >> obviously it's his choice. he's the president and he gets to have the secretary of state he wants. i don't want to begrudge him that. it seems to me because tillerson has been such a part of this pressure campaign, he has been such an integral piece of it -- in fact, even at their most boisterous and bellicose, they were still pushing diplomacy. it's been mattis and tillerson working in tandem to increase the pressure on north korea. it seems now that they've gotten to a level of success, this seems to be an unfortunate business of timing for me. i guess he gets who he wants.
it's a head-scratcher. >> admiral, stand by if you will. lest we forget, this relationship has never been close. rex tillerson never denied the reports that he called the president a moron. so that happened. on top of it all, they never really saw eye to eye on key foreign policy issues. we're joined by our national security correspondent jim sciutto. jim, the secretary of state was a different type of voice inside this administration. >> this is a big deal, john. i don't think you can underestimate that. he was a moderating voice on a number of major national security issues, much more forward leaning on russia, willing to point the finger at russia for this poisoning in the uk to a degree that the president would not. also on other issues with russia, meddling in the election, et cetera, a moderating voice on north korea, on other issues as well.
an ally of defense secretary mattis, this kind of balancing force that you have in the administration. every administration has factions or groups, et cetera. one is one seen as one that moderated the president's strongest impulses and directions away from mainstream u.s. foreign policy. in that sense it's a big deal. in the other sense, in terms of the, for lack of a better word, insult to the secretary of state, he was let go while he was traveling. no face-to-face, come into the oval office, sit down, let's discuss this. he was on a trip, foreign trip representing the united states when he was let know he would be let go and more substantively, the president made a major decision on north korea it appears without consulting the secretary of state, deciding to have a face-to-face sit-down with the north korean leader at a time when his secretary of state was out of the country, does not demonstrate confidence
in him. now, on the flip side, it's been rumored for weeks that this was in the works, questions about how long tillerson's tenure was. and mike pompeo, a trusted adviser to the president had always been the leading candidate to replace him. this is a secretary of state who has had to operate under that environment for a number of months. if you're sitting down with foreign leaders and they know you might not -- you might be a short timer, doesn't necessarily give you the strongest influence with those foreign leaders, beyond the fact that he's had open and public disagreements with his own president, just in terms of the different ways that they've made public comments on statements like russia. >> when you call someone a moron that is, in fact, a public disagreement. jim, stand by. this is a major shakeup in the national security leadership of this country. so let's go to the pentagon. our barbara starr is there.
we know that the secretary of state and james mattis had a close relationship. >> they did and do, john. i think what you said is exactly the point. this is a shakeup in the national security leadership in the country. mattis and tillerson spoke several times a week many times. they would meet and discuss. mass tis, w mattis who doesn't like to talk about how he operates would openly tell the press corps that he would work things out with rex tillerson before they went to the president, before they went to the national security council on issues like north korea or russia or fighting isis. when they had something to discuss, they'd have lunch, have breakfast, they'd work it out and present a very unified front. secretary mattis for months now saying that north korea was led by the diplomatic process at the
state department, that while military options were always on the table, it was state department diplomacy leading the way. so now what happens? mattis is going to have to find a new route. he's going to find a path for working with pompeo and trying to reconstruct that, but it also comes, as we know, there is growing chatter that the national security adviser, general h.r. mcmaster also is making plans to leave. he may return to the private sector in the coming months. there will be a shakeup there. there's constant talk about the chief of staff john kelly, someone who is also very close to mattis. at minimum what you do see is a quite significant change in the process by which all of this works. why is that so important to americans? the bureaucracy is the bureaucracy. it's the people who give the advice to the president about these crucial issues just as he's about to potentially sit
down with the north koreans as the russians are reportedly poise sonning people in the uk, this is the time that muss car diplomacy would be the preferred option of course to military action. it's going to be a shakeup in how that kind of advice is formulated and given to the president and whether the president will continue to listen to it, john. >> more diplomatic and political minefields than we have seen in some, some time. barbara starr, thank you very much. do we have kaitlan collins with us? i misheard that. let me get bob baer on with us. we're talking about the diplomatic and security challenges facing this administration right now. unique there is this meeting with north korea, still dealing with russia. what do you make of the timing
of this move? >> john, this couldn't be a worse time, especially in britain. britain was attacked with a weapon of mass destruction which came from russia. europe is in crisis. this is the news there. rex tillerson simply stated the facts, the russians were behind this and this couldn't stand. now the president of the united states fires him in the middle of a crisis. you don't fire a secretary of state in the middle of a crisis ever. now syria is getting worse by the minute, and you've got north korea. very risky diplomacy. you need somebody who has been around and is fact-based in making changes like this, manging horses in the middle of crossing the river is the last thing you want to do. it shows the administration in crisis and i think this is very unfortunate, john. >> bob, stand by, if you will. admiral kirby is with us. we got fresh reporting from our kaitlan collins from inside the white house where is word is
that the president felt the outgoing secretary of state rex tillerson did not have his back. there was the moron issue, apparent policy splits on some issues, what we've seen in the last 4 hours, taking a harder stance on russia over the last 24 hours, did not think the secretary of state had his back. he clearly thinks the cia director mike pompeo does. mike pompeo, i do want to remind people is someone who has spoken in interesting terms about the russia investigation, misspeaking, saying that the intelligence community found that no votes were changed by russian meddling when, in fact, they did not make that declaratory statement. what does this "did not have his back" notion mean to you, admiral? i think i've lost admiral john kirby. bob, i don't know if you heard that. bob baer, are you still with me? >> i did hear that. pompeo has gone out of his way not to bring up russia when he briefs the president.
he's taken over the counterintelligence center at the cia which is in charge of the russia investigation. he personally controlled it. any russian stuff was put in footnotes which the president didn't see. mike pompeo did not drive this issue into the ground as tillerson has in other people. so i can see one reason that trump would feel more comfortable with him because this russian issue has bugged him since the election. pompeo is going to come in and try to smooth this over. i think it's more than a coincidence in the timing of tillerson being fired. >> we're getting new information in just now about what precipitated this move. the president firing frankly rex tillerson has secretary of state. the cia director mike pompeo will be nominated to fill that john. gina haspel, the deputy director of the cia, nominated to take over the director, who is she? what a morning here. new developments straight ahead.
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to see how your joint damage could be progressing. ask about enbrel. enbrel. fda approved for over 14 years. the breaking news this morning, we just learned that president trump has fired secretary of state rex tillerson. he will nominate the director of the cia mike pompeo to replace him. you're looking at live pictures of air force one, the
president ready to depart for a trip to california. the president at this moment is speaking to reporters outside the white house. we do not yet have a read on what he is saying. he is speaking to reporters, this is being taped right now. as soon as we do have the video tape of what he says, we will play it for you. no doubt we are waiting his comments to find out exactly why he made the move, how he informed the secretary of state and what his plans are going forward. in the meantime, our abby phillip on the other side of the
white house. what's the latest from there? >> reporter: good morning, john. we're learning a little more about what happened with rex tillerson, and some of this reporting seems to indicate that the president made this decision while tillerson was travel iingn after ka. tillerson arrived back in the united states at 4:00 a.m. this morning. he cut the trip short the state department said because he had meetings in washington. clearly according to our sources the president believed tillerson was not sufficiently loyal to him, especially when it comes to his agenda. they were not seeing eye to eye on policy, especially with the new meetings with north korea on the horizon, to make a transition in that job. you have to remember, john, all the way back, months ago, tillerson reportedly called the president a moron. that issue has never sat well with president trump. he has always resented it and never gotten over that moment of defiance on tillerson's part.
tillerson also to this day has not denied explicitly that he said it. he simply refuses to discuss that issue. this has really come to a head after months and months of tension, months and months of tillerson seeming to be on the outside of the policy making in this administration. remember the president last week agreed to meet with kim jong-un in north korea and tillerson was nowhere near the white house. in the meeting were other senior officials who seemed to be closer to the decision-making process on this key issue. we're seeing the president finally taking steps to move him out and move in someone who he sees as much more compatible with him on policy. >> abby, stand by. we're getting more information just in. this is fascinating, from our michelle kosinski who receives the state department. she received a stramt attributable to steve goldstein,
the undersecretary, an official state department employee who said the secretary had every intention of staying because of critical progress being made in national security. he will miss his colleagues at the department of state and the foreign ministers he's worked with throughout the world. the secretary did not speak to the president and is unaware of the reason, but he's grateful for the opportunity to serve and believes public service is a noble calling. he wishes the secretary designate pompeo well. let me read the critical line. the secretary did not speak to the president and is unaware of the reason. again, president donald trump who spent a career on tv firing people, apparently unwilling, unable to fire rex tillerson himself, had someone else do it. we're joined by cnn political analyst rachel bade and alex burns. bob baer still with us. alex, that is fascinating to hear again, from a government
official by name on the record, alex, saying that the president did not speak to the secretary of state and is simply unaware of why he was fired. alex having a hard time hearing me apparently. rachel, i think you heard the question. go ahead. >> not surprising. trump, he likes to fire people on "the apprentice." when it comes to doing people in the white house, he gives the job to someone else. think about priebus sitting alone on the tarmac when he was fired by the president over the summer. this is something we've seen before. again, this was not surprising, weave heard rumors about this for a really long time. tillerson and the president didn't get along, didn't see eye to eye on policy. i'm reminded of a time when the president tweeted that rirks, it's not time for talks with north korea, got to show strong action, clearly rebuking him on twitter when tillerson suggested that perhaps they needed to
engage more with north korea. now we're seeing the president move forward with that in the coming weeks and months, potentially talking to the leaders of north korea and he wants a fresh start it looks like. he never had a good relationship with this guy. i want to say one more thing. mike pompeo should have a relatively smooth transition and be confirmed as the secretary of state here. he is pretty well liked by republicans on the hill that control majorities of both houses. he's got to be confirmed by the senate, of course. he is a west point graduate, went to harvard law and is pretty well respected on the ill. it should be a smooth transition there. >> alex burns, we're waiting to hear from the president of the united states. i looked down on my computer, and his taped comments will play back any second right now. in fact, i'm getting a readout on some of the things he said. he said he wishes rex tillerson well even though we just learned he never spoke to rex tillerson and calls mike pompeo a man of tremendous energy and says they
are always on the same wave length. politically there is no question that mike pompeo, the cia director has ingratiated himself to this president, alex. >> that's absolutely true, and he's also somebody who folks on the hill basically feel comfortable with, a former colleague. a couple important exceptions that could come up, rand paul has made no secret of his basically hostile view of mike pompeo. john, i think taking a step back, the fact mike pompeo is seen as essentially a credible person on national security shouldn't obscure the bigger picture that folks in washington and outside of washington, the business community, the donor community, certainly the international community see this as an administration really in flux in a significant way. the fact you have one name, two names today plugged into roles that are obviously very important and appear to be credible people, i think doesn't entirely take away this broader sense of unease about where are
we really headed here? we have new foreign policy leadership, new economic leadership that has not been announced yet. where is this story really headed? let me add two things to this. we're also learning that the president's personal assistant, a man named john mcintee has been pushed out of the white house. the wall stre"wall street journ it's for security reasons. we're getting more information on that. we just learned that rex tillerson hadn't spoken to the president. rex tillerson doesn't know why he was pushed out. he wasn't given a reason. it comes to this word we were hearing about for the last couple weeks, chaos. it certainly doesn't detract from the notion that this white house is a currently chaotic place. bob baer, since we have you, let's talk about the one person involved in this massive transition that we haven't spoken about yet, and that's gina haspel, the current deputy director of the cia.
this is someone you know. tell us about her. >> she used to work for me. very capable, very smart, well respected for the agency. she's going to be an excellent choice. she's been in 30 years, been in operations. she's good, very good. that's going to be an easy transition. >> there is some controversy, and i think you were about to get to it before i cut you off. she was involved in what some people consider to be torture of some of the people held in the program. that is controversial. >> it is controversial. she wasn't really the driving force behind it. this was a department of justice decision. the cia went along with it. it was a mistake. she probably realizes it was a mistake. she'll be called on the carpet for that for hearings. she wasn't the architect of it. so i think she'll get through congress approval pretty fast. >> apolitical relatively
speaking? >> apolitical. she's not a neocon, not to the right. she's a professional. it's a good choice. >> all right. as we speak right now, we are reracking the video tape of the president as he spoke on the south lawn getting ready to depart on marine one to head to california right now. he did speak about rex tillerson and mike pompeo. he also spoke about the house intelligence committee, saying there is no evidence of collusi collusion. let's play this right now. >> mr. president -- >> i've worked with mike pompeo now for quite some time. tremendous energy, tremendous intellect. we're always on the same wave leng length. the relationship has always been very good. that's what i need as secretary of state. i wish rex tillerson well.
gina who i've worked with very closely will be the first woman director of the cia. she's an outstanding person who also i have gotten to know very well. i've gotten to know a lot of people very well over the last year. and i'm really at a point where we're getting very close to having and other things that i want. but i think mike pompeo will be a truly great secretary of state. i have total confidence in him. as far as rex tillerson is concerned, i very much appreciate his commitment and his service and i wish him well. he's a good man. >> [ inaudible question ]. >> rex and i have been talking about this for a long time. we got along actually quite well but we disagreed on things. when you look at the iran deal. i thought it was terrible. he thought it was okay. i wanted to either break it or
do something, he felt a little differently. so we were not really thinking the same. with mike pompeo, we have a very similar thought process. i think it's going to go very well. rex is a very good man. i like rex a lot. i appreciate his commitment and his service. i'll be speaking to rex over a long period of time. >> [ inaudible question ]. >> i can't hear you. >> [ inaudible question ]. >> no. i really didn't discuss it very much with him honestly. i made that decision by myself. rex wasn't, as you know, in this country. i made the north korea decision with consultation from many people, but i made that decision by myself. >> [ inaudible question ]. >> i actually got along well with rex. really it was a different mindset, a different thinking.
>> [ inaudible question ]. >> say it again. >> [ inaudible question ]. >> i respect his intellect. i respect the process that we've all gone through together. we have a very good relationship for whatever reason, chemistry, whatever it is. why do people get along? i've always right from the beginning, from day one, i've gotten along well with mike pompeo. frankly i get along well with rex, too. i wish rex a lot of good things. i think he's going to be very happy. i think rex will be much happier now. but i really appreciate his service. with mike, we've had a very good chemistry right from the beginning. >> [ inaudible question ]. >> it sounds to me -- i'm speaking to theresa may today. it sounds to me like it would be russia based on all of the evidence they have. i don't know if they've come to a conclusion, but she's calling
me today. as you know, now we're going to the wall. we're going out to the wall and looking at the prototype which is very important for our country. but theresa may is going to be speaking to me today. it sounds to me like they believe it was russia, and i would certainly take that finding as fact. >> [ inaudible ] question. >> as soon as we get the facts straight and we're going to be speaking with the british today. we're speaking with theresa may today. as soon as we get the facts straight, if we agree with them, we will condemn russia or whoever it may be. i have not spoken to her. i'll speak to her some time today. >> [ inaudible question ]. >> we're very happy with the decision by the house intelligence committee saying there was absolutely no collusion with respect to rus a
russia. it was a very proud decision, a strong decision backed up by -- i understand they're going to be releasing hundreds of pages of proof and evidence. we are very, very happy with that decision. it was a powerful decision that left no doubt. i want to thank the house intelligence committee and all the people involved. >> [ inaudible question ]. >> i'm looking at larry kudlow very strongly. i've known him a long time. we don't agree on everything. in this case i think it's good. i want a diverging opinion. he's come around to believing in tariffs. i'm renegotiating great deals. without tariffs we wouldn't do nearly as well. lar ri has been a friend of mine for a long time. he backed me very early in the campaign, i think the earliest. i think he was one of my original back eers, he's a very
very talented man. i'm also speaking to many others. but i think larry has a very good chance. thank you all. i'll see you at the wall. i'll see you at the wall. >> there goes the president. headed to marine one, headed to california today. i'll see you at the wall. he's going to tour prototypes for what he wants to be the border wall with mexico, speaking for the first time about his decision to oust secretary of state rex tillerson, a man whom he says he has always gotten along with well, the evidence to the contrary, and talking about mike pompeo, the cia director who will be nominated as secretary of state. a couple of questions the president was not asked, nothing about stormy daniels, the adult film actress suing the president, nor about the pennsylvania special election which could not go well for the president today. we have new developments on this major administration shakeup. stay with us. we'll be right back.
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gina haspel to become the new director of the krooi. i want to go to cnn's michelle co-sirn ski. you have remarkable on the record reporting about how the secretary of state was informed, frankly not informed about the fact that he's losing his job. >> it's still unclear whether somebody from the white house did call him or when he caught wind that today would be the day he was out. we do know he did not speak to the president at all about this. in a statement that the state department just put out -- in fact, they dictated it over the phone, you get a sense of the scramble going on inside this building and the fact that people were taken off guard, possibly even secretary tillerson himself. the statement says he had every intention of staying because of progress he feels he's helped make in national security. he said he'll miss his colleagues, this is according to an undersecretary of state. and he's unaware of the reason
the president wanted him out. the statement went on to say he's grateful for the opportunity to serve and wishes secretary designate mike pompeo well. this is something that has been rumored for months. today being the day. it seems the secretary found out only recently about this not from the president himself. it's possible he also found out just this morning, john. >> fascinating, again, the president firing the secretary of state, not doing it over the phone or in person, sort of the diplomatic equivalent of a break-up text. we're getting null information from the white house about how this went down, what the president's thinking is and other developments at the white house as well. more shakeups. we'll be right back.
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he found out about it. i'm joined now by our state department reporter alice l labott. elise, he read it on twitter? >> as shocking for me to say as it is for me to hear it. undersecretary for public diplomacy, steve goldstein, the conduit between secretary tillerson's office and the press says he was not notified by anyone on the president's staff, learned this morning by a presidential tweet about mike pompeo. listen, it is possible that secretary tillerson did get a call from someone kind of giving him a heads up. he might have had an inkling that something was going on, but he was not officially notified by anyone in the administration and learned this morning of his firing. now, we know secretary tillerson came back about a half a day early from a week-long trip to
africa. his aide said he's been out two weeks. his father passed away about a week ago and then went on this long trip to africa. with all the news with north korea, we've been reporting on this crisis of tariffs with allies. the secretary felt he had a full schedule. did most of the things he needed to do in africa and came back early. that launched a lot of suspicion that maybe he knew something was out. several aides i've talked to this morning insist he was not notified by the white house that he lost his job. >> not notified. possible he learned about it on twitter, although, as you say, perhaps he got word of it as early as friday that something was up as he was brought home earlier than expected from his overseas trip. elise, thanks very much. let's go to kaitlan collins at the white house. >> reporter: a lot of stunning comments from the president just there on the south lawn. speaking about rex tillerson and his departure, the president repeatedly said he was a good guy but focused and emphasized
on how the two of them disagreed on many areas including the iran deal. what was the most striking was the president asserting that he left rex tillerson out of those diplomatic talks last week with north korea and his decision to meet with the north korean dictator kim jong-un. the president said he made that decision on his own and largely left the secretary of state out of those talks. that is why we saw tillerson last week saying comments like, we're a long ways off from negotiations with north korea. >> kaitlan, we understand there was another departure from the white house. >> reporter: rex tillerson was not so surprising. we saw that coming for months. we're now learning the president's personal aide, johnny mcintee has been fired and escorted from the white house grounds yesterday. there's not a lot of clarity on what exactly transpired, but we do know it had something to do with his background check that happened that led to him being fired and escorted out of the
white house. though he's certainly not a household name, i cannot over emphasize just how close to the president and the president's family that he truly was. people inside the west wing are stunned by his departure. >> kaitlan collins at the white house with more breaking us no. new developments about secretary of state rex tillerson fired, mike pompeo coming into the job. much more next.
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speaker paul ryan was informed of this move by telephone, which appears to be more than rex tillerson was given. we are are told that he found out about this on twitter, reading the president's tweet. joined again by bob bair to get a sense of what this all means, bigger picture. we keep hearing from inside the white house that north korea, the impending meeting between the president and kim jong-un was a big part of this. we're told it made the president realize he just wanted someone who was more on his wave length in that job. >> well, john, tillerson is right, meetings like this, summits like this with an enemy have to be carefully planned. nixon's trip to china was done by kissinger months in advance. you lay the groundwork. and this came as a surprise to tillerson. tillerson said don't do it until we're prepared and the president has decided on his own to go meet the north korean leader, very risky meeting, could make
things a lot worse. i got to say, the president's comments on iran alarmed me. tillerson clearly understands the agreement with iran was a good one, the iranians were living up to it but this president is determined to break it and confront iran with saudi arabia and the uae and israel and this is another very risky, dangerous policy. i just -- i can see why he had to get rid of tillerson fez bound and determined to make his own foreign policy. >> the president on the south lawn moments ago, what bob was referring to, said he feels differently than rex tillerson does on the iran deal. the president wants the u.s. to pull out or change it in a serious way. bob baer, thank you. we'll have much more to discuss. the secretary of state rex tillerson has been fired from his job. apparently the reporting is he found out about it on twitter. we'll have much more. stay with us.
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that's more speed than at&t's comparable bundle, for less. call today. this is cnn breaking news. >> good morning, everyone. i'm john berman. welcome to our viewers in the united states andeparture to dap administration. and thi was not voluntary. the president has firedpompeo. the president says that he and rex tillerson disagreed on things whilee and quite some ti intellect, we're always