tv The Seventies CNN December 23, 2018 7:00pm-8:00pm PST
♪ we're not computers and know that that ain't allowed ♪ tonight, television takes a look at itself. >> what's on the idiot box? >> it's only an idiot box if an idiot is watching. >> this period of time is looked upon as the platinum age. >> our obligation is to entertain. if we left something to think about, so much the better. >> television should not be just entertainment. >> charges were leveled at the commercial television networks. >> congress has no right to interfere with the media. >> excuse me! >> we have a responsibility to give the audience what it tuned in to see.
but tv and other news coverage is better, not worse, we simply required more demanding standards. >> when i think of tv i think of the '70s. >> what is this world coming to? >> the american public was hungry for more. >> more was allowed that hasn't been before. >> it was the last decade where it was a campfire television, where there was one in the living room. >> i want to watch an all black show for a change. >> where are you going to find one? >> here's one. los angeles lakers against the milwaukee bucks. >> young people were interested in relevant things, so television began to reflect that. this is cbs. >> really, it was very simple. you had three channels plus pbs. when the decade turned over into the '70s, television was very rural. >> the beverly hillbillies. >> cbs had beverly hillbilly, green acres.
>> patty coat junction and these rural fantasies of mayberry. >> hillbilly shows were everywhere and then they weren't. >> they said they will get rid of the shows most highly rated and replace them with that more appealing to the younger audience. >> they changed the face of television. >> my name is norman lear. >> until 1971, he was a very successful largely unheralded producer in hollywood, then he took on bigotry with "all in the family." >> norman lear created iconic shows. >> he revolutionized all of the country. >> our world is crumbling down. the -- are coming. >> to use language like that on tv was unheard of. >> 12% of the population is black. there should be a lot of black
families living here. >> this is only a beginning but i think it is wonderful. >> we will see how wonderful it is when the watermelon rinds come flying out the window. >> what scared me, they better be careful. there was no doubt the american people would accept it. >> do you have a quick answer to people who say the show reinforces bigotry? >> my quick answer is no. >> everybody would see something they new damn well was going on but not surprising. >> we're out of toilet paper. no, we're not. i bought some yesterday. it's in the closet in the kitchen. >> i ain't in the kitchen. >> hearing a toilet flush for the first time was a big deal and made headlines. >> what's this country coming to anyhow. >> what is it, archie? bad news? >> what else? >> we get out of vietnam or something? >> don't be a wise guy. >> i wasn't going to play around
with mom dented the car and how are we going to keep dad from finding out about it, not when we see what's going on in our country. >> just because a guy is sensitive and intellectual and wears glasses you make him out as a queer. >> i never said a guy who wears glasses is a queer. a guy who wears glass is a four eyes, a guy who -- is a queer. >> it put forth archie's friend who is very masculine and happened to be gay. >> how long you known me? 10, 12 years. >> yeah. >> in all that time, did i ever mention a woman? >> come on. >> i do not think that you glorify on public television homosexuality. >> nixon objecting to the show, that was a badge of honor. >> it was really culturally on point every time.
for a sitcom, that was unheard of. >> 1, 2, 3. >> i wanted an episode where somebody could give archie what he earned. >> shut-up all of yous! >> we created a character that could really let him have it. maude! >> i'm only here because of edith. the fact that you happen to be here with her is beyond my control, like any other freak of nature. >> before that show was off the air, fred was on the telephone with me saying, there's a show with that woman. >> hello. no, this is not mr. finley, mrs. finley. mr. finley has a much higher voice. >> get your coat and come on! >> what makes you think you can order me around like that, heavenry. >> you're my wife, that gives me the right. >> when he says wife, he means possession. >> so what, maude? you told me 100 times you wanted
to be possessed. >> walter finley, i never said that standing up. >> norman lear it has to hear it called "the leer factory." all of his series come out of this building. >> "good times" was like holy smokes, there's black people on tv. >> there had never been a complete black family on before with the father. >> it was a household and we do not live in the projects in chicago. >> dynamite! >> you want to worry your head, do it. i have $36 in the shoe box and then another -- >> you worked all day and all they paid was $6? >> the black panthers were upset. when huey newton came to see me, their big complaint was, why can't we see a black man doing
better than that. the jeffersons started as neighbors of archie bunker. >> don't call me honky. why are you so sensitive all of a sudden. >> how would you like it if i called you n -- >> it's worse than being called honky. >> nothing's worse than honky other than being married to one. >> what are you staring at? >> i was just thinking, i ought to bring my neighbor's kids over here. this place is better than the zoo.
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picks up large particles, gives floors a polished look, and fearlessly devours piles. duo clean technology, corded and cord-free. on saturday nights, the cbs lineup of the early 70s was amazing. 8:00, "automated the family," 8:30, "mash," 9:00, the bob newhart show and ended with carol burnett show. >> they had nothing with initials. people would stay home on saturday nights. they wouldn't go to the movies or restaurants. that may be the best night of television in all of television history. >> mary tyler moore was a single woman working as an associate
producer on a nightly tv show. >> you know what, you've got spunk. i hate spunk! >> there were a lot of young women entering the workplace then. for some of them, mary tyler moore was like a port of entry. >> i'm doing as good a job as he does. >> better. >> better. and i'm being paid less than he was because -- >> you're a woman. >> the television hero could be a woman. she could be the main event. >> all right? >> the first script written by al alan burns and jim had her being divorced. cbs says, no, no, no. >> at the beginning of the decade, divorce was considered somewhat scandalous. >> she went on dates with a lot of guys. the guys were really important. >> we seemed to be hitting it
off and i just thought -- >> you just thought -- >> she's not obsessed with finding a husband. >> don't forgot to take your pill. >> i won't. >> this is people coping with one another and the workplace was like a family. >> i told ted to close with the copy for sue ann. >> oh, my god! >> what's wrong? >> i told the projection it was the other way around. >> oh, my god! >> a local pig farmer served notice today rising corn prices are forcing them to find other means to feed their stock. here's one pig. look at her gobble up that slop. starting tomorrow we will be starting a new feature for sue ann, dining out with nibbins. >> i know they said there is a world of access in the female
purse, we have to access it. >> did you crash the show? >> no. i went as somebody's guest. >> why do you think it was successful? >> i think because of the casting and the writer. they don't sacrifice the character for the sake of a good joke. >> that effort to keep the female sensibility is what made it authentic and good. people would say, you're just like me and my girlfriends. >> how can you gorge yourself like that? you're so skinny. >> feed yourself? >> i can't, i have to lose 18 pounds by 10:30. >> they said, valerie, we're going to spin you off. i thought, my god, i'm fired. >> if we're going to start living together we have to tell each other everything. >> okay, joe, i want to be married. >> rhoda and joe's wedding became a huge national event. 52 million people tuned in to
see that. >> suddenly, rhoda is in a happy relationship and they didn't know what to do with that. they had to get her divorced to try to reoboot the show. >> why did you marry me? >> you made me marry you. >> i feel so funny. >> just a matter of trust. >> she's not going to do that. >> where does that leave us? where do we go from here? >> that, we have to discuss at future sessions. >> the '70s had a therapeutic overlay. >> hi, bob. >> hi, bob. >> hello. >> we decided to make him a psychologist. >> we seem to have run out of things to say. >> why don't we pray? >> let's pray until the end of this session. >> i didn't know anything about therapy prior to that. >> i'm from ne planet -- >> it's in the -- galaxy. >> how long are you going to be in town? >> i didn't want to do a show where we had children.
i didn't want to be the dumb dad. >> howard, i don't care where we -- i just don't want to make any more decisions. >> people say, gee, my dad and i used to watch this show and it was great. you realize you're part of people's lives. >> the '70s was the era where a certain artistry developed. >> "mash" really changed many people's perception what a sitcom can be. a sitcom can be cinematic. >> "mash" was shot like a movie. it was the single most unique situation comedy ever. >> i have a headache, a tremendous headache. it goes all the way down to my waist. >> the television series, "mash" had one thing a movie in my estimation did not, which was heart. >> there's certain rules about war. number one is young men die and
number two is doctors can't change rule number one. >> we were talking and doing things that had to do with vietnam and everybody knew it. >> war is war and hell is hell and of the two, war is a lot worse. >> we had 32 million people a week watching mash. >> have you ever considered the foot? >> yeah. but i prefer girl. >> better not bump into -- >> i intend to bump into nurse baker repeatedly, if possible. >> these are people that would go through the script and say, we can't use this word. we felt we were in the midst of a battle. this is freedom of speech. >> at the hearing today, strong charges were leveled at the television networks. the broadcasting industry now stands charged with having molested the minds of our nation's children to serve the causes of corporate profits. >> the family hour was
established in response to complaints of too much sex and violence on early evening television. >> the family hour, two hours from 7:00 to 9:00 p.m., during which parents and children are supposed to be able to watch television without being made to feel uncomfortable. >> it's topless, edith. >> it seemed all together unfair and we sued. >> family hour is under attack from producers and others in the industry and filed a lawsuit to have it abolished. >> as those scheduled to testify arrived, they passed through a picket line protesting the hearing. >> congress has no right whatsoever to interfere in the content of the media. >> if you can sensor a joke today and tomorrow you can sensor the expression of any thought if you can sensor a joke. it just becomes easier the next day. >> a federal judge in los angeles ruled the so-called family hour from 7:00 to 9:00 p.m. is unconstitutional, a
violation of the first amendment guarantee of free speech. the first amendment was upheld in a most important decision and it's really truly a victory for everybody. yeah, it's an incredible deal. last chance to join t-mobile and get the awesome iphone xr, on us. it has an amazing camera. and it comes in all those colors! so when they join t-mobile, give them the iphone xr? it's the holidays, we've gotta go big. it's too much, i can't bear it! tell me you went with the bear head just for the pun. maybe. it's your last chance this holiday season to join t-mobile and get the iphone xr on us. opportunity is everywhere. like here. where you can explore the world knowing you can always find your way home. ♪
look at itself. we are looking at what you watch most of the time, entertainment programming on the three commercial networks. what are you looking at and is it good for you? >> somewhere around the middle to late '70s, people got tired of talking about real stuff. there was a longing for a simpler time when there didn't seem like there was so much anger and contentiousness and people weren't so angry at each other. >> during the last season, "the waltons" caught on. >> now that dinner is over, let's try out the piano. i am taking requests. ♪ sunday monday happy days >> i created happy days not where the family really was, i thought it was good if some families didn't get divorced. it wasn't by accident everybody on "happy days" hugged each other. it wasn't by accident everybody
at the family ate at the same time at the same table. >> it was a sweet tender show in the era of "american graffiti" with affection. >> abc wanted fonzie's eh to compete directly with jimmie j.j. walker's dynamite. >> i'm the fonz, eh! >> sit on it howard. >> does anyone say, take you, howard? you know what they say? >> sit on it, arnold. >> that's what they say. >> you watch fonzie and you just want to be fonz. >> knock yourselves out. i'm sorry. it was a slip of the finger. >> it's a fantasy of what teen life could be. >> defazio, they're here. all right. laverne. this is laverne defazio. she's mine.
this is shirley feeney, she's yours, as you can see. >> nice to meet you, richey. >> when they said they needed a series, they said, look at these two, that a series. >> tuesday night, between 8:00 and 9:00 is called the death shot, death to any program that dares to go on against ""laverne & shirley."" >> ""laverne & shirley"" were the first one to debut as number one. >> a seemingly harmless but brainless exercise in adolescent silliness. >> you have to go back to "i love lucy" to get the same slapstick physical comedy. >> we never thought of the importance except it was two girls trying and the value of friendship. it must have something going for it. >> i don't video do do.
>> you do vodeo do do. >> they couldn't say sex so they said vodeo do do. >> you video. >> everyone knew what they were talking about. >> my son didn't watch "laverne & shirley" or "happy days." i said, you don't like it? >> i like it but i like space men. >> that's when i created space man. the writers wanted an alien. i had to make up a story. fonzie is running out of adversaries. >> fonzie has never lost an attack yet and we have him on our own home advantage. >> "morning&mindy" was the hit show. >> the audience, talking about a willing suspension of disbelief, is willing to buy the premise just so they can watch robin
williams. >> nano nano. >> excuse me! >> that was an interesting part of the balance, i think, of the television diet, there was an attempt to explore deeper into the psyche what makes us tick. there was also a need to escape. >> i'm going to a beach barbecue. >> uh-huh. >> i can see what's going to heat up the coals. >> if there's any single thing that brought up the direction it's t&a. >> and they talked about how they were concocted. 92 they take their clothes off three times so they jiggle and all are well endowed. >> now, let's get three undresses and three jiggles and write a script around it. >> some will tell you t&a has peeked is on its way out but there is "the love boat" and
""three's company."" >> they refer to the fact these were women who were -- you know, who were -- >> good morning, angels. >> "charlie's angels" became an enduring trademark of the '70s. >> i already made arrangements for you three to go to prison. >> i'll be standing as erect as ever. >> i did that "network stars" a couple of times. i hated it. >> i think i made up good time on billy crystal. >> networks would loan out their tv stars to compete in a series of quasi--like events. >> erin gray with that live supple body. >> i think we have a lot to apologize for with the worst of television. >> my only defense was, it was the '70s. >> did i jiggle much? live and learn.
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programming in the '70s became the platinum standard on the planet for how you use this medium to educate kids. ♪ would you be mine could you be mine won't you be my neighbor ♪ >> it was fred rogers who made it okay to speak to an audience of kids like they were human beings. >> there's some things that are very difficult to understand in a newspaper. >> every now and then i think back to "mr. rogers" and think he would say, don't be scared, everybody is special. >> everybody is so special because everybody is different. >> just go and do the thing that you love. that always stuck with me. >> see you tomorrow. ♪ how to get to sesame street >> "sesame street" introduced my children to the interaction of children with different backgrounds. >> it's not easy being green.
>> "sesame street" was aggressive in not only learning concepts of reading but concepts of interacting. >> i may be small but i am somebody. >> "sesame street" was as big as it got in terms of celebrity. everybody wanted to hang with the muppets. >> aren't you johnny trash? >> cash. >> cash. >> education really matured in the '70s. >> i'm leaving. >> i love you. >> i love you, too. >> now, for something completely different. >> when i was 13, the show from england came on, pbs, which before that was only the realm of my parents. >> what do you mean? >> suddenly, they're doing the most outlandish racy non-sequitur type of humor and
killing me, the 13-year-old. >> it's extraordinary what you can't do on american television, i think you can do it on pbs and why i hope you will watch it. >> don't attack me with it! >> this generation of comedy nerds who don't even know their comedy nerds. this is no more. it has ceased to be. >> "monte python" turned out to break so many rules. it changes everything. just like with the beatles, they came after the beatles. like after monte python. >> saturday night we will open up a whole new live adventure in new york city. we just happen to have members of the program. what should we look for? >> loren michaels was given free reign. >> hi, i'm loren michaels
producer of saturday night. >> he hire as bunch of comics. >> make it hurt. >> george carlin was the first host and wanted to be a permanent host. >> glad to see you. welcome, and thanks for joining us live. >> there were a lot of names bandied about in terms of permanent hosts. >> that's one of those tv rules you mu must not break until you do and why don't you have a different host every week? >> come on, who is this? >> andy graham. >> come on, we give you the sock. >> i'm barbara wah-wah. >> thank you very much. >> you were drawn to the tv set because you knew something insane might happen. >> live, live. >> partly because it was live and because television was now in the hands of the television generation. ♪ >> these were kids in quotes who
just might do anything. >> having sex with the president within these very walls. that never happened when kick nixon was in the white house. >> it was comedy television and that's part of what made it attractive. >> no problem. >> every one of their episodes became worthy of telemudic study, if that's the word. >> loren had me in his office and said the kids were the stars and the kids weren't nearly as impactful because the thing was all the rage. 92 they called themselves the not ready for primetime players not because they felt they weren't good enough but because they felt they were too good. >> good evening, i'm chevy chase and you're not. >> chevy chase became an instant star. >> our top story tonight -- >> chevy chase was on the show for one year. >> are you sorry you left
saturday night live? >> i'm deeply deeply sorry. >> chevy decided he was too big for the show and so he left. in some ways, chevy leaving after the first year was a blessing because it showed saturday night live was going to much more than survive. >> there's some things that just aren't explainable. >> hello, i'm bill murray. you can call me billy. around here everybody calls me the new guy. >> when chevy chase leaves, bill murray comes in. >> come on. >> makeup, can we get in here? sorry. >> that opened up other doors and saturday night live was taking a -- >> super 76, you'll never have to scale, cut or gut again. >> roseanne roseanne ban. >> where do we come from? >> france. >> it was the show for us.
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monday, monday, monday is the greatest day of the week! >> throughout high school there was one show that was religious broadcasting you had to watch because if you didn't see it you wouldn't have anything to talk about for all of tuesday and most of wednesday and a big part of thursday. >> why? because monday night is nfl football night, that's why. >> monday night football got its start on september 21st, 1970 with cleveland browns hosting the new york jets. >> welcome to primetime national television series. >> this game is under way on abc. >> frank was there for play-by-play and don for replays and provide humor to the telecast. howard was there to be the straw that stirred the drink. >> the pairing of howard cosell
with don meredith is a classic sitcom odd couple kind of pairing. you couldn't help but be swept up by what those guys were saying. the booth itself was almost like a variety show. >> i called it a traveling freak show. it really was. the head freak was howard, ain't no question about that. the tension between the two of them made for the kind of thing you want to see every week. >> professional football is rapidly growing into a very big business. >> you understand football, right? >> i understand but i don't understand too much. >> would you like to learn more about it? >> we were on a mission that took us very close to saying, screw the football fan, because he's going to come anyway. what we needed to do was appeal to women, we needed to appeal to the casual football fan. that's why we started playing stories that humanized the players. >> joe namath, unfortunately his legs did not go with that arm. >> the things people associate
with. >> recognize that player? >> what's been your view of this american professional scene? >> it's an american event and makes rock concerts look like tea parties. >> i'd like to have your job and be a sportscaster. >> that show became one of the highest rated shows in america. >> it showed football was an entertainment experience on par with any primetime show you could imagine. >> maybe it was better because you didn't know how it was going to end. >> "60 minutes" decided to peer into the electronic future to see what may be in store for television viewers in the '70s, television by cable that could alter our way of life. >> there is nothing distinctive about it, just a way for you to get what everybody else can get. that's the way it was until -- >> welcome to home box office
subscription television. >> it was not an overnight success. >> presenting the polka festival. >> the saying was getting people to pay for television was like getting them to pay for air. >> it was like slide band music. >> nobody knew what you could do or couldn't do but you were trying not to be commercial television. >> ladies and gentlemen, robber klein. >> you could warm up and take the stage and it was okay. >> the talk shows are okay. i have to be funny in a hurry. takes a little time. six minutes and boom boom boom boom. >> it wasn't as contrived, a full tloet performance. >> it's not regular television, it's subscription, you can say anything -- >> because you're not using public air waves the fcc can't
regulate your content. >> i understand you had two orgasms the other day. could you tell us about them? >> hbo was giving you something to sell, you were getting movies in your home, all the naughty bits in tact. >> in september, 1975, we viewed coast-to-coast with vanilla-illa, with muhammad-ali and that's when hbo explodes. before that, you're counting growth in tens of thousands of subscribers. after that, you're counting in millions. that's really day one for both businesses. hbo and the cable industry. >> if you're a fan, what you will see in the next minutes to follow may convince you you've gone to sports heaven. >> in the mid 'sfroen70s in thes
world there were these three giants, nbc, abc and -- then there was this giant. >> there is a sophisticated transmitting station. >> this guy, bill philip rasmussen fired from his job trying to figure out a way to deliver local cable sports. then when they found out about the satellite, they said, can you cover the whole state? >> for another 25 cents, we can send it all over the country. gee, why would anyone want to do that? they didn't quite know what they had. >> he wound up revolutionizing television sports. >> well, everyone, to the espn sports center. from this very desk in the coming weeks and months we'll be filling you in on the pulse of sporting activity, not only around the country, around the world as well. >> they didn't have the money to go out and buy baseball games or nfl games. but they took the leftovers out there. >> i'll be handling the
play-by-play for tonight's game between badgers and blue demons. >> it gave birth to arguably the greatest media success story of all time. >> at its best, cable television can provide a refreshing relief to bigness and centralization. at its worst, cable tv could invade our the question is, indeed, will the miracle be managed? ♪ incredible! yeah, it's an incredible deal. last chance to join t-mobile and get the awesome iphone xr, on us. it has an amazing camera. and it comes in all those colors! so when they join t-mobile, give them the iphone xr? it's the holidays, we've gotta go big. it's too much, i can't bear it! tell me you went with the bear head just for the pun. maybe. it's your last chance this holiday season to join t-mobile and get the iphone xr on us.
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the best thing pbs did for adults in the '70s was the miniseries. the idea of novels for television. >> good evening. i'm alastair cook here with the ninth episode of "i, claudius." we ought to put up a sign, "discretion is advised." >> i was not allowed to watch it because it had nudity in it. i very much wanted to. >> rather than try to come up with a show that would run for years and years, it was this idea that, here is a limited story, we're going to tell it in x number of episodes, and let's just do this one self-contained thing. >> we all did things during the reign of my mad brother that we might not otherwise have done. >> it looks cheap. it was the script and the performances that mattered. in other words, it could be good for you, but it was fun at the same time. the miniseries was such a huge success for public television. abc was the network that hit
gold with "rich man, poor man." >> how do you even tell a story that isn't controlled by the clock? characters that can grow and change and differ. >> i want to talk to you. >> about what? >> about making an honest man out of me. >> it's a subject i rarely discuss in the nude. >> what we saw in the '70s was big-event television, if it was done right and if it was compelling, the audience kept coming back and back. >> here you have topics that start to get serious and important and groundbreaking for television. >> there's no life left here. and i don't want harm to come to you because of me. >> i won't -- i won't listen to this. >> the majority reaction to the holocaust program has been positive, it has not been without debate. >> with "holocaust" the heat was you shouldn't even touch this subject, it's disrespectful. but finally the thinking was, no, to not talk about it would be disrespectful.
to not perpetuate the memory for another generation. so if you're too young to know, here's a depiction. >> not since the war have emotions been so high in germany. the "holocaust" telecast caused heated discussion. its most tangible political effect was shown when the german legislature debated the search for nazi war criminals. "holocaust" made it easier for lawmakers to vote to continue the hunt for nazis. >> "holocaust" brought it home. it made it real, even though it was a hollywood creation. >> sunday night, "roots" begins in eight parts on abc. if it sounds like i'm plugging it, i am. basically, television will never be the same again. >> there was really no bigger television event than "roots." it was based on a 1976 book by alex haley about his family in africa and coming to america as slaves and what happens to them as the centuries go on. >> i will go to my grave
believing that "roots" is america's story. it's not just black america's story. >> we might have come over in the bottom of the ship, but we all came over on ships. >> my name means stay put. but it don't mean stay a slave. >> as a 19-year-old kid, "roots" was my first job. >> we're not children. we're very close to being men. >> what's your name? >> kunta. kunta kintae. >> the character that i got to portray in "roots" was a dream role. >> it was really genius to cast all of america's favorite television dads in the roles of the white slave owners and the villains. >> i'll be by to fetch ya in the morning, captain. sleep well. >> it is difficult to explain in today's culture how unprecedented "roots" was. no one had ever seen the story
of slavery before told from the point of view of the africans. >> it may be the first time that television allowed an embracing of black pride. >> them is free. is free, honey. >> one of the reasons that "roots" was so incredibly popular is not because abc had so much faith in it, but because abc didn't. >> earlier miniseries were broadcast in weekly installments. and the abc executives determined that if "roots" were to fail, they could just be done with it in seven or eight nights. >> it was high risk, high reward. if it didn't work, you were out a lot of tv time and not many people watching. >> the television premiere on eight consecutive nights attracted the largest audience in the history of the medium. >> there's something about it that seems to touch all human beings. it transcends age and race. >> entertainment was meeting humanity. i think that's the primary value is to lead humanity forward. >> if there's a legacy of television in the '70s, it's that you matter. >> while there's a lot going on
in the world, television was a reminder of how much little things mean to us. the smallest of situations. >> no matter what the subject matter was, it wanted to include you. you're in the family. don't make fun of the outsider. include them. >> its legacy is, look how long it's lasted. >> those shows were about people who were kind and nice. they were not mean-spirited shows. >> there was a certain elegance to that. i kind of miss it. >> oh, it was so delicious. five different flavors. and archie was sitting at another table with jefferson pratt, remember him? anyway, archie was trying to get my attention. so first he put two straws up his nose. like a walrus.
did someone put up a lot of money to have the democratic headquarters infiltrated and, if so, who and why? >> justice will be pursued no matter who's involved. >> do you have information implicating president nixon? >> i have no comment. >> the president of the united states demanded the attorney general fire the special prosecutor. >> that is the definition of tyranny. people have got to know whether or not their president's a crook. well, i'm not a crook. >> i don't think there was ever any discussion that there