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tv   Fareed Zakaria GPS  CNN  January 27, 2019 7:00am-8:00am PST

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we're working to make things simple, easy and awesome. this is gps, the global public square. i'm fareed zakaria, coming to you from paris. today, the crisis from venezuela. who is running that country? after calling maduro's election illegitimate, president trump recognized a different head of state. so what's happening now? we'll tell you. and what can warring chimps tell us about warring humans?
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i was delighted to have a wide-ranging conversation with that great observer of both species, jane goodall. at this point in the program, i know that you are expecting my take, and i have that. we have a whole show coming to you from davos, but before that, i want to get to the breaking news, which comes out of venezuela. right now, the united states is recognizing a different head of state than nicolas maduro, who has called this a coup. the united states is trying to get countries like britain to stop any kind of financial activity with the country of venezuela. maduro threatened to expel all
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u.s. diplomats, then backed down from that. where do things stand now? we have from caracas a fellow. michael benfold what is the status right now? as far as i can tell you, you have growing international pressure on maduro. you have one important military person, the who has said maduro should step down and the army should not protect him but the rest of the army still seems to be backing the maduro regime. >> well, the international pressure is certainly increasing tremendously, particularly yesterday. the eu has already said within eight days maduro does not accept the need to call for free and fair elections, they'll
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recognize also formally just like the u.s. and other latin american countries, they'll recognize the head of the national assembly, juan guaido as the interim president to lead a transition that takes a country to those elections. at the same time, the top brass of the military remains loyal to maduro. it's a very difficult time for the government that seems cornered in many ways, but they have been able to get that kind of support. but i have to say also that the military, even though they remain loyal, have not come down exactly the path that the government would have liked them to go. so it's a gridlock in many ways, but one where i would say that the great surprise here is people marching, people in the streets really claiming and wanting the constitutional order to be restored and to --
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democracy to be alive again in venezuela. >> ian bremer, looking at this, we've seen many coups and changes of regime. this is an unusual one where, of course, guaido, the person who has assumed the powers of the presidency is acting on behalf of the constitution and in response to what is claimed to be a fraudulent election. the pressure seems to be mounting. the united states buys 40% of venezuela's fuel, the chief source of revenue for the government. britain does not allow it to withdrawal money, as it appears to be the case. can the international pressure break the regime and force regime change? >> it's crumbling. i'm not surprised that you have a military attache breaking from the regime in washington where it's safe to do so. you really don't want to be the
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first major general who comes out against maduro. you want to be late rather than early on that front in caracas, because life gets that much more dangerous for you. the turks, the iranians, north koreans are all still supporting mr. maduro but behind the scenes the russians in the last couple of days have been calling for talks. they're trying to find a way to de-escalate. they know that a multilateral approach is better, very different from syria, where they didn't want any of that because their military on the ground could determine outcomes. here they understand that they are increasingly losing influence. so i do believe this, for the first time in the trump administration where he is actually out in front and all of the american democratic allies pretty much have gotten in step behind him, all the latin american governments, europeans, canadians and the rest, that pressure will lead to more economic pressure, to a lot of the members of the venezuelan
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military to start questioning, is this for the long term? should they be sticking with this government or will they be going down a dangerous path? and the likelihood of a peaceful transition orchestrated wi ed b americans with the russians is more likely today than it was a week ago. >> guaido is a young, charismatic leader of the opposition, which controls the legislature. is he very popular? what should we make of this power play? >> i think he is really a surprise for many. before he was appointed as head of the national assembly, people hardly had heard about him. and all of a sudden, people are starting to talk about him almost on a daily basis, not only through social networks but being able to mobilize people in different cities throughout the country.
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he is very young. he is a moderate within a party that has been very up front about how to challenge the regime and set a strategy to lead the country towards a democratic transition. he has been able to bring together people that a month ago were not talking to each other and that's his biggest success. i think he still needs to do more. he needs to keep talking to the key actors in the domestic arena, particularly the top brass of the military that are the key actors in this whole process. he needs to make sure that a transition in venezuela will not be uncertain. he is trying to put the country the a point where that transition becomes irreversible. the government is fighting back.
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as ian was saying, russia remains loyal. china, turkey has become a key ally. mexico also playing an important role, trying to also support a negotiated outcome that seems, i think in the short term, unlikely unless maduro recognizes. >> i need to interrupt you. michael, let me interrupt you. because i want to get ian's perspective on the other big player that you didn't mention, which is the united states. ian, it's fair to say that while donald trump has had a pretty disastrous week domestically, he and his administration, mostly mike pompeo, have handled this pretty well in that they've made sure this doesn't turn into america versus venezuela, and have been trying to rally the international community. that seems to be the key going forward. do you agree so far it's been handled quite well? >> i think that's right.
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you saw at home in the united states, the big cave was trump to pelosi on the shutdown, but internationally the big cave was maduro to trump, in backing away from saying you've got to take all of your diplomats out of the embassy within 72 hours after the americans recognized the option as a legitimate government. he's not prepared to accept new elections, as has been demanded by the eu, brits and others in eight days but he is willing to engage in talks. in fact, he even said he's potentially willing to talk to president trump himself. his economy is in freefall. millions of refugees. i think the next step the americans should take while they have most of the international community, the democracies together, they need to take the lead on humanitarian aid. not a lot of people have been reaching in their pockets to write checks.
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a desperate need for food to be delivered to the border with colombia and get across the border with the u.n., put pressure on maduro to make that happen. his people are starving, they're in extraordinary poverty. the americans should take the lead not only in supporting the venezuelan people publicly but get away from this economic deprivation, 10 million inflation in one year. >> ian bremer, michael penfold, pleasure to have you on. we'll, of course, be following this story closely. when we come back from davos, my take. christa freeland on human rights and jane goodall, on champion a -- chimpanzees and humans. which i used to offer health insurance to my employees. what's in your wallet?
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here is my take. the atmosphere at this year's world economic forum, the painting was not very pretty. the mood was subdued, cautious, apprehensive. there wasn't much talk of a global slowdown, but no one was confident about a growth story either. there is no great global political crisis yet people spoke in worried tones about the state of democracy, open societies and the international order itself. the white house scrapped the official american delegation trip to this year's conference and the president's spat with congress providing a perfect metaphor for the broader outlook. america has withdrawn from the world. meanwhile, europe is distracted, divided and despondent.
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germany's lame duck chancellor angel merkel was the only one to show up. theresa may could not attend because of the turmoil over brexit. french president macron chose not to come. in this environment there was a gaping absence of leadership in davos from the usual defenders of liberal democracy and the rules-based international system. that doesn't mean any new global leaders have stepped into the void. contrary to some speculation, china played a more muted role at the forum than in the past, sent a respected statesman with a message aiming to reassure the world that beijing seeks win/win solutions and global cooperation. this probably reflects the reality that politically and economically, china faces its own problems at home with president xi trying to tighten his grip over china's vast society. it's not really the dawn of dictators, few of whom came,
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perhaps a reflection that global norms still do not celebrate strongmen. putin and erdogan hold a much weaker hand than people realize. they, too, along with the saudi crown prince, stayed home. the one area of consistent optimism among the attendees remained technology and the next greater opportunity, leveraging artificial intelligence to make companies far more efficient and productive. business executives were more openly pessimistic about trade. they worried that a u.s./china trade war could spill over the entire world. whether or not it happens, it seems clear the great expansion of global expansion is over. there has been no significant forward movement on trade and many minor setbacks. this hasn't translated in large-scale protectionism or tariff wars but there is a new stag nancy. if the west is divided so are
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other regions. last weekend's arab league meeting, almost no arab leaders showed up, relegating the summit to even greater irrelevance than usual. latin america is split between the new leftist president of mexico. not marked by chinese dominance, not an outright anti-american one. one in which many yearn for a greater u.s. presence. one in which countries are freelansing, narrowly pursuing their own interests and hoping that the framework of international order remains reasonably stable. but with no one actively shoring up the international system, the great question remains, in a world without leaders will that system, over time, weaken and eventually crumble? for more go to
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and read my washington post column this week. coming up, much more from davos. i talk to canada's foreign minister christa freeland and i had the great pleasure of speaking to jane goodall about chi chimpanzees and humans. to make you everybody else... ♪ ♪ means to fight the hardest battle, which any human being can fight and never stop. does this sound dismal? it isn't. ♪ ♪ it's the most wonderful life on earth. ♪ ♪
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canada has been atop the news a lot lately. that's somewhat of a change for america's less assuming neighbor to the north. there's the free deal that ottawa signed with the u.s. and mexico. president trump said of the negotiations this has been a battle. then the spat with saudi arabia, which began after foreign minister christa freiland sent out an alarm. that simple tweet cause aid diplomatic firestorm. now canada's china problem which began when the daughter of the founder of huawei was arrested in vancouver on a u.s. extradition request. when a canadian man was ultimately sentenced to death on
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a drug charge in canada, many linked that to the friction between the two. i spoke with christa freiland earlier this week. thank you for being on. >> great to be here, fareed. >> values oriented, if donald trump is looking entirely at things transactionally, you have emphasized values and i'm thinking of two different countries, saudi arabia and china. let's first talk about saudi arabia. you made statements about saudi arabia, that the saudis took on and tried to retaliate against canada. has that worked? do you feel as though you can maintain your values and still get, you know, arms deals with the saudis and do business with them in the way that lots of people say we have to do because they're a rich country? >> let me start with the broader point. you're absolutely right, canada believes strongly that human
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rights need to be a very important part of our foreign policy. that certainly is the position of our government. and we believe that that is an approach which is broadly supported among canadians. i would disagree a little bit that a policy that is about speaking out about human rights is not necessarily a policy which will advance your core, hard interests as a country. i think that speaking out for human rights in the long run is the only way to guarantee the interest of your country. >> but in the short run, you took an economic hit. >> well, we are now finding -- it's interesting that you mention the china situation. we are now finding a very large number of countries, number of diplomats, academics -- this week 140 diplomats and academics
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signed a letter. the prime minister and i have been working hard to get countries to come out in support of the two canadians detained in china. what we are hearing from our allies, from diplomats, scholars around the world is if you stand silent as, say, in this case a couple of canadians are detained arbitrarily, you are actually not doing something prudent in your own self interest. you actually ultimately are jeopardizing your own longer term interest because you could be next. so i really think that that message, particularly today when, as you've written often, the rules based international order is under threat. multilateral institutions are being challenged. and canada is a vast country. we are the world's tenth largest economy. we're proud of that. but we're a middle power. we understand that, too.
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the only kind of world in which canada will thrive, in which individual canadians will be safe and secure are ones where there are rules, where there are laws that are followed. that's where we believe having support for human rights as a core part of our foreign policy is not only the principle thing to do, ultimately it's the practical thing to do. >> canada, the chinese ambassador to canada accuses canada of white supremacy. explain to us what's going on. the background is that you have arrested a prominent chinese businessman essentially at the request of the united states and likely extradite her at the request of the united states. what's going on? >> so if i may, it's a little bit -- if i can offer a little bit of nuance on the situation, canada and the united states have an extradition treaty. we share the world's longest unmilitarized border, something we're very proud of. and part of that -- and we're
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very close allies. and part of that relationship means we have an extradition treaty. that extradition treaty is used often between our two countries, something we're very experienced with. the u.s. made an extradition request for ms. ming, the cfo of huawei. so in line with the treaty, she was detained. there was a hearing and she has now been released on bail and is living in vancouver, where she happens to own a home. so that's the situation with her. the extradition case has not yet gone through the canadian legal system, and i will not prejudge what the decision of the courts about it will be. it is before the courts right now. we're proud of our objective legal system. on behalf of the canadian
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ministers i'm going to say we have the best judicial system in the world and that is where ms. ming's case is being handled. >> the chinese seem to be very angry. chinese ambassador is talking about canada believing in white supremacy. they have sentenced people to death, canadian citizens being held in china. what is going on there? >> well, that is a question that i hope you will put to the chinese authorities and certainly we have heard the chinese concerns. i've spoken with the chinese ambassador to canada twice and we've had a lot of contact with the chinese authorities in china. and what we're saying in these conversations is really two things. first of all that when it comes to ms. ming, this is not a political decision canada has taken. in fact, she is not accused of
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any crime in canada. our government has made no case against her, but we are a rule of law country and we have an extradition treaty with the united states and when asked to act according to that treaty, we do. we honor our treaty commitments. now as you point out, fareed, two condition aidians have been detained in china. we have looked into those detentions and we believe them to be arbitrary and we're calling for their release. a third canadian, who had been convicted of a drug-related crime in china, has now been sentenced to the death penalty. in that case, the case of robert shellenberg, canada has a lo longstanding and consistent policy. we do not apply the death penalty in canada. we think it is cruel and inhumane and have made that case clear when it comes to mr.
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shellenberg and asked for clemency for him. what has actually been encouraging for me and i think is something relevant for us here in the conversations that people are having in davos is that we have found in these cases our international allies really rallying and coming out in support, speaking out in support of the rules-based international order. >> chrystia freeland, pleasure to have you on as always. >> great to be with you, fareed. next on gps, almost 60 years ago, jane goodall began her work that change houd we all think about animals. suddenly the animal kingdom was more human and we, perhaps, were more animalistic. i was lucky enough to talk to her this week. she's still teaching us about animals and ourselves.
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a man can talk to the animals. >> dr. doolittle may have talked to the animals but he, of course, is fictional. jane goodall on the other hand is real and does speak chimpanzee. she begins many of her talks by offering a greeting in that primate's native tongue. me jane. >> almost 60 years ago, she travelled to tanzania and ended up living among the species that is the closest relative to us humans. what she learned will change our
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perception of animals and ourselves. i have the great honor of talking with her this week. i started by asking her how her amazing career began. >> well, i was 10 years old when i met tarzan of the apes in a little book and fell in love with him and i read jane. everybody laughed at me. how would you do that? we don't have any money. world war ii was raging. i was just a girl. ja jane, dream of something you can achieve. but my amazing mother said if you really want something, you'll have to work extremely hard, take advantage of all opportunity but don't give up. and i've taken that message to young people, particularly in deprived communities. and i wish mom was alive to know
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how many people have come up to me and said jane, thank you. you've taught me that because you did it, i can do it, too. but the opportunity came when i had a boring job in london, was invited to kenya. i was about 23, very naive. it was after the war. and i was given the opportunity to go and live not with any animal but the one most like us, the chimpanzee. >> was the opportunity designed from the start that you would live with chimpanzee? how did that part happen? >> i watched animals all my life. and i knew there was nobody out there doing anything. so what i knew was i've got to get the chimpanzees to trust me so i can learn about them. the big problem was there was
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only money for six months. the chimps were very shy and they took one look at this weird, white ape and ran away. as weeks became months i became increasingly nervous because i knew if i didn't see something exciting, that would be the end and i would have let him down and that would be the end of my dream. through my binoculars, i was beginning to learn about aspects of their behavior and one chimpanzee with a beautiful white beard -- i don't know why but david gray beard is the one i saw using and making tools to fish for termites and that enabled leeke to go to national geographic society. not only did they agree to continue to fund the research but sent out a filmmaker, who became my husband. and it was his early footage that took the story of jane and the chimps around the world. >> and why was that so important?
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that you had suddenly seen the connection between the chimps and humans? because if they were able to make tools, they had some kind of intelligence? >> well, the point was that science back then believed that humans and only humans used and made tools. so i was showing that that wasn't true. >> what did it take, when you think about it, to get those chimps to trust you? because this is something that translates well beyond simply about chimps. how do we, as human beings, make others trust us and how do we trust other humans? >> well, i think the important thing for me was not to push too fast. i wore the same colored clothes every day, so there was nothing new. and patience. patience. when you serve the animals you must simply have patience. i was born with patience.
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i was born loving animals. >> did you feel as though there was a point at which something changed? you know, was there a moment or was it just a slow, incremental extending of their trust in you? >> there was one moment for me that was a very seminole moment. i was following david through the forest and i thought i lost him. and i came through this tangle of vegetation and he was sitting, looked as though he was waiting for me. maybe he was. i sat down near him and there was a nut and i held it out on my palm. he turned his face away. i put my hand closer. he turned, looked directly in my eyes, he reached out, took the nut and dropped it -- must have been something wrong, i don't know, but very gently squeezed
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my fingers and that's how chimpanzees reassure each other. so in that moment we communicated with each other perfectly in a gestural communication system that must have predated human words. and i think that was the moment when i thought, this is what i have to do. i just have to carry on. >> the thing that i was most struck by was in the first phase your experience with the chimpanzees is very benign. and then you see what happens when another tribe, as it were, comes in, and the savage war that takes place between the two groups. what did you learn from that? >> well, it was a big shocked. i already learned how like us they are in so many ways, like kissing, embracing, holding hands, patting one another,
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begging for food, the close bond between mothers and family members, the competition between males, the top rank. a lot of swaggering and posturing, reminding me of a lot of male politicians today, no names. but i thought they were like us, but nicer. and then came this war that you mentioned. they were killing individuals they had groomed with, played with, fed with. it was just like a civil war. and it took me a long time to make terms with it. but just as we, too, have this brutal side, we have a compassionate, loving, altruistic side and so do they. >> when you look at the way in which human beings go to war now, exactly as you said, they will sometimes go to war and kill the people they live with, their next door neighbors, their relatives. do you think that all of that is, at some level, very primal
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and this is a reflection of our ape-like tendencies? >> do we have some kind of instinctive aggressive tendencies? you can't look around the world and say no. we do. but we have the biggest difference. we've developed this intellect, an explosive development of the intellect. think what we can do. and so we actually are capable of monitoring our own behavior. and if you look around at the ordinary general population you may hear oh, i could kill him. we don't mean it. the trouble is that war today is not the simple kind of territorial behavior that it was with our early ancestors or some of the indigenous people. it all has to do with economic development, money and oil and things like that. so it's completely different in a way. >> when we come back, more with the indominable jane goodall.
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she is 84 years old and is on the road for more than three-quarters of a year. how does she do it? and what words of wisdom does she have for us mere mortals? rag meeting today. and 2 boxes of twizzlers... yeah, uh...for the team... the team? gooo team.... order online pickup in an hour. hurry and get 20% off with coupon at office depot officemax is it to carry cargo... greatness of an suv? or to carry on a legacy? its show of strength... or its sign of intelligence? in crossing harsh terrain... or breaking new ground? this is the mercedes-benz suv family. greatness comes in many forms. lease the glc 300 for $479 a month at your local mercedes-benz dealer. mercedes-benz. the best or nothing. at panera, we treat soup differently.
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♪ (buzzer) ♪ olly. >> welcome back to the special edition of gps here in davos, switzerland. more now of my interview with the great primalist jane good l goodall. >> do you believe that humans have lost something in the way in which we are unconnected with nature and the animal world in general? you talked about being in a rain forest and being in a spiritual experience. what are we losing? >> we're losing an awful lot. we have a program now which
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began in tanzania with 12 high school students in 1991 and it's now in nearly 80 countries. i was meeting so many young people who didn't seem to have hope. and mostly they were just apathetic, didn't seem to care, but some were very depressed and some were very angry. and i began talking to them and they basically said the same thing. you've compromised our future and there's nothing we can do about it. so the saying, we haven't inherited the planet from our parents, we've borrowed it from our children. but we haven't, have we? we've stolen. are we still stealing the future of our children as we go on, destroying the environment? we depend on the environment. but when they said there's nothing we can do about it, i thought no, we've got a window of time. if we get together, we have time to start healing the harm that we've inflicted. so the main message is every single individual, that's you
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and me and everybody in the audience and everybody who is listening, each one of us make an impact on the planet every single day and we can choose what sort of impact we want to make. >> one final question. what is this prop doing between you and me? >> okay. i carry a piece called mr. h. he was given to me 28 years ago by a man called gary horne. gary horne was blinded age 21 in the u.s. marines. he decided to become a magician. everybody said gary, how can you be a magician if you're blind? he said well, i can try. he does shows for kids that don't know he's blind. at the end he will say something might go wrong in your life. you never know. but if it does, don't give up. there's always a way forward. he does scuba diving, skydiving. he has taught himself to paint, blind. never painted before. anyway, he thought he was giving
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me a stuffed chimpanzee for my birthday and i made him hold the tail. chimps don't have tails, gary. he said never mind. take him where you go and know my spirit is with you so he is my symbol for the indominable spirit, the people i meet who tackle what seems impossible and don't give up. nelson mandela emerged from 17 years of hard, physical labor and had the amazing ability to forgive so that with the clerk he could, you know, end the evil regime of apartheid. all around us, there are people tackling personal, environmental or whatever, big ones or small ones. and either succeeding or inspiring other people to join them in the battle. and i think the most important thing, every single one of us,
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every single one of this audience, every single person who is listening, we all have that indominable spirit but we don't always recognize it. we don't always feed it. we don't always grow it. we don't always let it out in the world to do good, to inspire, to take action. >> okay. one final thought on indominable human spirit. >> and the inspiration rubs off so you better hold him. >> i will. i will hold him. >> you also have -- i don't know whether it's spirit, whether it's mind, whether it's temperament or genetics, but you are 84 years old. you travel 300 days a year. what's the secret of not getting jet lag? >> it doesn't exist. i go by the sun. the sun rises, it's morning. the sun sets, it's night. >> through have it. the indominable human spirit.
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you may have heard that this american-born journalist, on a reporting trip to the u.s., was arrested earlier this month in missouri then released this wednesday after it turned out she had been held to testify before a grand jury, but that wasn't before the iranian government demand washington unhand her and since there are no diplomatic ties between iran and the u.s., authorities in tehran turned to an intermediary.
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it brings me to my question. whi which country did iran turn to as an intermediary? sweden, switzerland, france or germany? stay tuned and we'll tell you the correct answer. this week's book of the week is death by truth. we all see the truth and facts have become endangered species but we're not really aware of why and when it happened. it didn't start with trump, argues kakutani. she brilliantly explains the cultural and political forces that brought us to our current sorry condition. a must read. the answer to my gps challenge this week is b, iran asked the swiss ambassador to the islamic republic to protest the journalist's arrest which it called highly political. since the end of formal diplomatic relations between the u.s. and iran in 1980, switzerland has acted as the
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united states', quote, protecting power in iran and the two countries have turned to the swiss to convey messages to each other. it was also the protecting power of the u.s. in cuba from 1961 all the way to 2015. thanks to all of you for being part of my davos program this week. i will see you next week. i'm brian stelter. time for reliable sources. how the news gets made and how all of us can make it better. this hour we're talking about a lot of big stories including the democrat's television primary, what we're seeing from all the dems using television to launch their 2020 campaigns. we'll also be talking about two new books about life inside the trump white house and how these books are actually confirming two years worth of reporting. we'll get into that with the