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tv   At This Hour With Kate Bolduan  CNN  February 14, 2019 8:00am-9:00am PST

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the kids and our communities and our schools and why was this not done after columbine? why was this not done after sandy hook or after what happened here or virginia tech? i'm tired of people just saying here is our thoughts and prayers, we care. stop talking the talk and start walking the walk. words can only take you so far. we want to start seeing some actions. >> take care of yourself. we are thinking of you. we are proud of you, too. >> thank you, spencer. >> thank you. thanks to all of you for being with us. i'm poppy harlow. >> and i'm jim sciutto. at this hour starts right now. hello everyone. the former and fired acting director of the fbi andrew mccabe goes on the record for the first time confirming that he and other justice department officials seriously considered the possibility of invoking the 25th amendment to remove
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president trump from office, this is in the chaotic days after president trump fired fbi director james comey. what we don't know yet is why. mccabe laying this out in a new book and a new interview with cbs listen here. >> i was speaking to the man who had just run for the presidency and won the election for the presidency and who might have done so with the aid of the government of russia, our mosta world stage and that was something that troubled me greatly. >> how long was it after that that you decided to start the obstruction of justice and counter intelligence investigations involving the president? >> i think the next day i met with the team investigating the russia cases and i asked the
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team to go back and conduct an assessment to determine where are we with these efforts and what steps do we need to take going forward. i was very concerned that i was able to put the russia case on absolutely solid ground in an indelible fashion that were i removed quickly or reassigned or fired that the case could not be closed or vanish in the night without a trace. i wanted to make sure that our case was on solid ground and that somebody came in behind me and closed it they would not be able to do that without creating a record of why they made that decision. >> you wanted a documentary record that those investigations had begun because you feared that they would be made to go away. >> that's exactly right. >> there is that and apparently much more to come. in the least shocking response to this news, president trump going after mccabe on twitter
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calling him a disgrace to the fbi and pointing to the fact that an internal investigation had found that mccabe had lied about contacts with the media. let's get to the justice department. andrew mccabe putting his book out there. confirming a lot of what your reporting had seen over the past months going on behind the scenes. >> confirming it for the first time on the record. the interview is stunningly candid. one of the most eyebrow raising parts hasn't aired yet. confirming mccabe will say that there were discussions about potentially recruiting cabinet members to invoke the 25th amendment to try to oust president trump from office and that rod rosenstein had discussed wearing a require to potentially record conversations with the president. the justice department is pushing back hard on these
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characterizations calling them inaccurate i want to read to you a new statement this morning. they say the deputy attorney general again rejects the events as inaccurate. the deputy attorney general never authorized any recording that mccabe references. based on personal dealings there was no basis to nor was the d.a.g. in a position to consider invoking the 25th amendment. a war of words between mccabe and the deputy attorney general. rosenstein not denying that he said these things. he says he never had the intention of recruiting cabinet members. >> so i want to get to much more of that in just a second. let me add to the conversation. cnn law enforcement analyst, a
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former fbi supervisory special agent. and shan wu, a former federal prosecutor. josh, in your view, what do you think it means, what does it mean that we have andrew mccabe according to cbs on the record saying that yes there was talk of the 25th amendment to remove the president from office and yes the discussion was a serious one about having hilary rosros r a wire. >> i have a personal connection to this story. i want the viewers to know out of transparency that i'm biassed about andrew mccabe because i know he is a good man. this is a career public servant who spent over two decades inside the fbi working to catch bad guys and mitigate threats from terrorists. i think it is important to say that because he is obviously the subject of this political smear
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campaign and people have to understand that this is a good man. it is true that the inspector general at the department of justice said that he lied. this is an inspector general whose integrity is unimpeachable. we believe that he lied. what it comes down to with the bo book, we know that what the president and the white house are going to do is say because andy mccabe lied to investigators everything that he said must be a lie. >> you can see that in the tweets. >> i ask people to try to look at all of this through the lens of what an fbi agent would. if you know that person's credibility may be in question, ask yourself this. does what this person, is what they are saying, does it track with everything else that i know and other things i have seen. he talks about the president as a bully and liar and this ora of criminality around him whmpt you see the claims, ask yourself
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does that fit with what i know to be true? and if it squares with what you know to also be true you should also credit what they are saying. >> when it comes to the 25th amendment it's not just how we haven't heard a bit of that interview yet. it's not just what he is saying or how he is describing the conversations, it is also about what we have not heard him say or describe him say that i think was important. what was it that was so bad that had justice department officials discussing the 25th amendment? do you think it was just the fact that it was just in the days of the chalk time period in the days after comey had been fired? >> yes. i think that was a big part of the atmosphere. i don't think this was the valentine's day gift that president trump was expecting. here i think what is
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extraordinary is you get a sense of the crisis atmosphere that was perminating the top echelons of the fbi and the justice department. we all know that law enforcement is used to calling the shots, to making decisions. they are the ones who will decide when we go in and kick down the doors. here you get the sense they were worried about the doors being kicked in on them. these are career dedicated civil servants who were so concerned about this situation where they might be shut down and could not trust leadership that they didn't make a political decision. they weren't slamming some politician or the new president. they were trying to make the record to be in a preserved state so that nothing could be done to it later. they are obviously deeply concerned about the integrity of the investigation, the work that had been done as well as the safety of the country. >> and the pushback coming from rosenstein and the justice department today, when you look
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at the statement, he is denying it as factually inaccurate and not correct. he does the same again today. do these statements hold up with what mccabe is laying out? can both of these things, both of these statements be accurate? >> i think they can be true at the same time. it could be the case as mccabe says that these discussions happened and it could be the case as rosenstein says but they were never actually carried out. they were kind of sitting around counting noses. we have no reporting to suggest that they made phone calls to general kelly or any other cabinet member to try to get this plan in motion. it sounds like it was more banded about internally. i think one thing to keep in mind here is just to highlight the level of mistrust that is going on between d.o.j. and the
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fbi partly because of rosenstein's role in firing james comey. as we reported before, mccabe was looking at rosenstein very skeptically because he just had a role in the firing of comey. the two of them actually fought in front of who has now become the special counsel, robert mueller. so the mistrust sort of is permeating these discussions. i think we are seeing the output of that. >> shan, let me ask you about that. mccabe writes about this in the book. there is an excerpt that the atlantic has. he says rosenstein confided in
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him after the firing. he says he was shocked. he was grasping for a way to describe the nature of his situation. one remark stands out. he said there is no one that i can talk to about this. there is no one here i can trust. >> that's an extraordinary admission for the deputy attorney general of the united states. i think that really illustrates just what a sense of urgency, how chaotic and really how they were at that point. they are just trying to make the best decisions they can in that situation. when you have somebody in rod rosenstein's position feeling that way, that is a genuine crisis. to go back to joshua's point, when you weigh what kind of
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corroborating evidence we have here, i think you can toss the political attacks to the side here because there was obviously evidence of concern and they already had opened and begun looking at this from the counter intelligence investigation. it's not just something mccabe invented to throw at the president. that was ongoing. he was taking steps to preserve it. rosenstein is concerned about how his words are being used. >> you were with fbi director comey on the day he wuz fired. mccabe writes that after a phone call he had with the president, president trump was really upset that comey was allowed to fly back to l.a. to washington on a government plane and this is what mccabe writes.
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the president flew off the handle. that's not right. i don't approve of that. that's wrong. i said i'm sorry that you disagree, but it was my decision and that's how i decided. the president said i want you to look into that. i just told you i made that decision. you were with comey on that plane ride back. what is your reaction when you hear that the president that that made the president so upset? >> i have talked to a lot of people about this. the one reaction from the president that we understand is not just him thinking this is improper use of a government airplane but it was the optics. you had comey's motorcade. there were news helicopters following. they showed every moment from the time the airplane took off. when we rolled up to the airplane on the day that comey was fired, the security agent
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said we will pull you up, you will go right on to the airplane. he always stopped to thank the police officers that helped him with the visit. in this case it was california highway patrol. if you remember the scene as comey gets out of the car, his security agents go to the plane. he goes to talk to the police officers. i'm told that that infuriated the president. you have comey whose first goal was to talk to law enforcement officers. that infuriated him. comey was barred from any fbi space. the last thing i will say is that it is interesting hearing mccabe 's version because my version was -- i was getting calls from lawyers at
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headquarters saying we don't know if you can get on this airplane because we have all of these issues. i got pretty frustrated and switched off my phone. i knew that regardless of whether comey was getting home, i needed to get home. this was just political nonsense. this is the right thing to do regardless of how it looks politically. >> your two versions seem to be definitely in line when it comes to what seemed -- in the grand scheme it seems like an insignificant piece of this like the ride back. it seems to be symbolic of where the focus was. in the chaos of this aftermath that the president was so angry about him getting on the plane. >> i will add to that one point,
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after that comey was barred from fbi space. he wasn't allowed to pack up his office. it came down to the one view that you had the president watching television and seeing it play out and didn't like the optics. >> laura, great reporting as always. i really appreciate it. coming up for us, a judge rules that former trump campaign chairman paul manafort rules after a lot of discussion and debate and court filings that manafort lied to the special counsel when he was supposed to be cooperating with the special counsel. the big question now is why did he do so. congress finally set to vote today we think on a deal to avoid another government shutdown as vice president pence says president trump is still not happy with the deal. what does that mean in the end? the very latest. that's ahead. liberty mutual won't raise their rates because of their first accident. switch and you could save $782
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say good bye. paul manafort's deal is off and over with the special counsel after a judge ruled the former trump campaign chairman intentionally lied when he was supposed to be cooperating and working with bob mueller's team. here is a quick look at the lies the judge found and said the mueller team had proven, that it is all about his interactions with russian operative and the $125,000 he received for legal bills and about an unnamed separate justice department investigation. this has been going on and on and on. had he lied his team tried to make the case that he had not. the judge rules that he did lie and the plea deal is now no one has to be a part of it anymore.
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much of it gets back to this meeting. who is this guy? why is he so central or becoming so central to mueller's investigation. >> he is a long-time associate of paul manafort's. he is a russian and prosecutors alleged he has ties to russian intelligence. he knew paul manafort was in touch with him and that he was continuing to be in contact with him during the campaign. then we learn that he is actually someone that paul manafort was sharing polling data with during the campaign and that they continued to be in contact. they continued to meet even after manafort left the campaign and after donald trump was elected president. one thing that is interesting is the judge points out that the things lied about were material to the investigation. it is clear that he fits into a broader narrative. we might not get that full picture until we move forward to the sentencing.
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>> that is key. great to see you. back with me for a couple of questions is shan wu. he represented rick gates for a time. so why wouldtion lie on something this big after they have agreed to cooperate with federal officials? >> that is a really great question. i think just before i answer that i want to paint the context for manafort. it is more grave than we have heard about. people say how stupid. this kind of situation, he is completely at the mercy of the prosecutors. he only needs to prove a breach by a good faith standard. it is basically completely up to them. he knows he has to completely please them and be truthful despite that, despite how easy it is for them to put their
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thumb on him, he still chose to lie about these really material issue issues so to answer that question, he has to be very afraid of something. i don't know what. it could be that the consequences of those meetings really do go to the heart of the investigation which is was it about a trade on russian sanctions easing up on that? we know that the republican party's platform did soften on that afterwards. it could be something like that. he could have been trying to keep that hidden perhaps. i'm speculating because if that stayed hidden the white house would recognize or the president might recognize that stayed hidden and that ups his chances for a pardon. those are all very speculative issues. it really invites us to speculate because the stakes are so high for him. at his age to lose the benefits
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of this bargain, it's a life sentence for him. >> it seems so dumb. this gets us to why do so many people lie when it comes to russia? could this all just be personal self interest for manafort it could be one thing. could everyone who has lied about russia, could they all have their own separate reason for doing so? >> i think in white collar cases where you have smart people who are kind of clever and they have trusted their own instincts for a long time, there is always personal interest. they are not just lying to take the bullet for someone else. they lied because they thought it would help them, as well. the question is why do they think it would help them to lie about this? that is where the fascinating intrigue comes in. is it so valuable that they felt it would be beneficial to them to protect it? sometimes people make mistakes.
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this pattern is certainly self interest but it effects their calculus. >> to get to the core of the answers would be dependent on the people telling the truth about what is their self interest in all of this. great to see you. thank you so much. >> good to see you. happy valentine's day. coming up, congress is set to vote on the spending bill that would keep the government open, would avoid another disaster of a government shutdown. the president has signaled that he will sign it, but that won't be the end of the border wall debate, of course. stay with us. you've tried moisturizer after moisturizer
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and even movie tickets. just say get "dragon tickets". they're close but they are not there yet. congress is set to vote on a bill to avoid another government shutdown. there has already been plenty and there is plenty of time. barring that, the president is expected to sign it. he is not going to be getting the nearly $6 billion that he wanted for the border wall. he is getting some money for a physical barrier or whatever you want to call it. is that enough? listen to what the vice president told reporters while traveling in poland. >> the president is still evaluating the bill that the conference committee has produced. i think he has been very clear
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that he is not happy with it. >> cnn's kaitlan collins has the latest from the white house. phil, first to you. the votes are expected today. what are you hearing about how this is going to go down at least from capitol hill? >> i know what you want right now is a procedural break down of how the senate can go first on a spending bill before the house. i will go ahead and spare you of that. >> i'm sorry. i fell asleep. please continue. >> when you talk to members and leadership in both parties there is kind of a comfortable feeling that they will have the votes comfortably to pass the bill in the house and the senate. there is also anxiety when you play comments from mike pence. there hasn't been explicit word that the president will sign the bill. they are going through the hope and pray strategy of whether
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this will get a final signature. senator chuck grassley after the prayer to open the senate took to the mics and said he prayed that the president had the wisdom to sign the bill and avoid another government shutdown. >> he really did that today on the floor? >> i have never seen a president protempdo that before. >> they don't know. >> they don't know. that's true. members of both parties want to get this over with. it is understood anxiety about the idea of voting on the bill that was released shortly after midnight on the same day. this is an enormous package. a lot of things that a lot of people could find the reason to vote against it. because the shutdown and how the drama played out, members want it to end and will vote to pass it. i want to know where the president stands right now. >> that is how the procedure does work. if you give members enough time, they will read it and find
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something they don't like. give it to them at midnight. tell them to wake up and vote on it. there is the reality. where is the president on this today? what is your reporting on this? where the president is has changed day by day. >> phil can lay out that democrats and republicans can feel as confident as they want. everyone is waiting to see what president trump is going to say. as you can tell from vice president mike pence's comments no one is confident enough to say that. one of these the president has been complaining about republican negotiators saying he doesn't believe they did a good enough job. he wish he had been consulted more because he thinks he could have gotten himself a better deal out of all of this. he has been watching the coverage play out as some of his media allies have been dismissing it at a garbage compromise as sean hannity called it once the top lines came out on monday night.
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because of that there have been a slew of phone calls from the white house to those people in the media trying to convince that this is a win for the president by making two points, one that house speaker nancy pelosi is taking a loss here. she said the president wasn't going to get more than one dollar in the funding bill and is getting over a billion and by saying the president could still take executive action and declare national emergency to get further funding for the wall. the question and the reason the aides are doing that because they don't want the president watching media coverage and that deterring him from signing the bill. they feel good that the president has indicated they will sign it. they are not confident. they are waiting for the president to publically say so before they do. >> absolutely. great to see you. thank you so much. we will stand by to stand by. great to see you. thanks so much. joining me now for more discussion on this, former republican congressman from pennsylvania charlie dent. congressman, what is your assessment of how this has
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shaken out? would you describe this as a good deal? >> let me say this. here we go again. the president of the united states is going to trash this bill. he is going to complain about it, whine about it and then he is going to sign it because if he doesn't sign it, what is going to happen, it will lead to a shutdown or congress would pass a continuing resolution funding the government at the current level. i believe he will sign it, pocket the gains he gets and then go on to the next step of likely either declaring an emergency or trying to figure out a way to through executive action moving moneys from the disaster relief accounts into the border security accounts which will create a crisis all by itself. >> i want to ask you about that in a second. in conversations the president has been griping that
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republicans are outplayed by democrats in this negotiation. he might very well believe that. would you describe this as republicans being outplayed by democrats? >> no. i think the republicans in the appropriations committees did their best. the president's people gave bad advice. so the administration put the appropriators in this very difficult spot. they did not have an easy negotiation here. everybody knew it. the people in the white house didn't know it then that's on them. >> as you were talking about
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this may be the next crisis that is coming, democrats i have talked to, they are split on this next step of if the president goes around congress to get more money for the wall. if you declare a national emergency to the side because that would face a legal challenge, if it was looking for pots of money through an executive order, some say it is something the legislative branch would have to deal with. i want you to listen to this threat levelled yesterday if the president went that route. >> ft president goes over and overrides the appropriation process by moving significant amounts of money from one program to another there is a thing called we'll see you tomorrow mr. president. you will have to come back here for all of your programs for everything. you saying you have to come to us for money later and that's where he will pay a price?
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>> absolutely he'll pay a price. >> what do you think that looks like? >> i think he is accurate. this is the way the process is supposed to work. if the president wants to reprogram money from the disaster relief fund to border security, that would require a sign off by the chair of the house appropriations committee and the subcommittee chair they would have to sign off on this. they are not going to sign off on it. i think that the president would be setting up a real crisis if he were to move this money without congressional approval. i was the one who wrote that military construction bill, taking money from a defense purpose for a nondefense purpose is a violation of the law. that money is firewalled. >> the department of defense has
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the authority to build a total of 37 miles of barriers on the southern border at the gold water range in southern arizona. it's an artillerary range. the pentagon didn't ask for additional barriers. i did a lot of research on this. they don't have that authority. the homeland security department would be responsible for building a barrier. that is not department of the defense. >> my general take away is if you think this is a mess, great, good to know. thank you so much for coming in. >> great being with you, kate. >> former acting director of the fbi breaks his silence on how the fbi's investigation into president trump began, a new report says house democrats are launching new investigations into the president and russia. we'll talk to a member of a key committee on that next.
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a bombshell interview with andrew mccabe . mccabe breaking his silence revealing why he launched the investigation that led to the mueller probe also for the first time confirming that there was talks about the justice department about bringing the president's cabinet together to possibly invoke the 25th amendment to remove trump from
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office. president trump calling mccabe a disgrace to the fbi. joining me right now is democratic congressman from new jersey. he was an assistant secretary of state under president obama. thanks for coming in. >> thank you. >> so mccabe in this book and in this interview with cbs says the talk on the 25th amendment was serious among justice officials. but also saying that they weren't to a place where they were asking cabinet members how they would vote. you were on president clinton's national security council. what would have had to have been going on for that kind of serious talk to have been taking place. >> having served in a normal administration it is hard for me to imagine any of this and visualize myself in the place of an fbi official having that kind of conversation. that happened almost two years ago. our focus right now is to try to make sure that we get our
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foreign policy, our national security policy right in the world right now. but we also need to know what was going on. there was some very strange things going on in the campaign of a president who we know continued to do business with russia all the ray way through the 2016 election while he continued to take positions that were very favorable to russian interest in the campaign. he is the only president in our modern history who continues to profit from business dealings with foreign countries, not just russia, the gulf states and saudi arabia. i think that is something we do need to know more about. >> and it is reporting that house democrats are planning what is described as a vast investigation across multiple committees of the president and russia. what do you want your committee and foreign affairs to focus on? >> i think it will be a very focussed investigation. remember, our primary goal is making sure that our policy is
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right going forward. we are not spending all of our time investigating. we have done hearings on saudi arabia and our policy towards venezuela. we do need to know, we do need to know whether there has been and whether there continues to be foreign influence on this president. >> from the foreign affairs committee, how do you tackle that? >> we look at the trump organization's business dealings with countries like russia, with the united arab emirates, saudi arabia and others. we look at whether there is any relationship between his dependence in the past on business relationships with these countries and the positions that he has taken which at least are very favorable. >> when you talk about the president's businesses reminds me you are one of a group asking the fbi to investigate the trump organization as a criminal enterprise as the post was
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documenting that immigrants have been fired from their jobs after working from the golf club. why do you want that investigated as a criminal enterprise? >> we want the trump organization to be treated like any other business in america. there are now over 20 former employees who have come forward to say that not only were they undocumented people working for the trump organization, but the trump organization helped arrange their fake papers. that's a crime. no question about that. it's president trump shutting down the government for over 30 days because he was railing against illegal immigration to this country. i think the american people are obviously divided on the immigration issue. we are not divided when it comes to hypocrisy. this is about as close as i can imagine to the height of hypocrisy. >> i could be mistaken, but you have it that the trump organization helped them falsify
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documents? >> yes. a number of these employees have come forward to say that their photos for their fake green cards were taken on trump properties, that they were directed to particular places where they can get these fake papers. the trump organization was completely complicit and knowledgeable in this whole process. i don't know if that's true, but it is certainly something that the fbi should investigate just as they would with any other business when so many witnesses have come forward. >> you haven't heard back from the fbi yet? no we didn't. >> you know that eric trump has denied that he knew about it. that part is part of the conversation. want to make sure we get that out there. very interesting to hear what comes of your letter to the fbi. >> thank you.
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some breaking news coming in right now. amazon is bailing on its plans to build its second head quarters in new york. let's get more details on this. there were rumors of it, concern of it, talk about it. now, it's confirmed. what are you hearing? >> we got a statement from amazon saying after thought and deliberation, we decided not to move forward with the plans to build a headquarters in long island. this is a huge blow for the mayor, mayor de blasio and mayor cuomo. they were selling the deal,
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telling constituents it would bring jobs and economic development. we had a host of local politicians oppose the deal, making the case to new yorkers, this would raise housing, make it unaffordable for people in queens to live. we had this dual playing out in the press over the last couple weeks and months. we thought something like this could happen. now, it actually is official and amazon is pulling out of long island city, which, again, is a huge blow to the governor and the mayor, who worked very hard to get this deal through and become one of the cities to host amazon and become an economic driver here in the city. >> this raises a whole host of questions, right off the bat. that was a yearlong search that amazon had been going about this before that big announcement. now, what does that mean for where they would put another headquarters. this was 25,000 jobs that were
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going to be brought into long island city, into the city and this was all over kind of the big subsidies all over the states that officials were up in arms about. >> that was the most controversial part of the deal, the subcities and they were arguing an amazon-like company didn't need subsidies and needed to do more with new york, help with the transportation system, housing. local politicians really wanted to see amazon do more for the citizens here in the city. it just didn't pan out. unfortunately, we don't have much in the way of where amazon will go, but, they will likely have to go back to the search and take a look at, like you said, an exhaustive search. i'm sure they have second and third, you know, choices to go to. >> i'm just looking down at the
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statement as it was handed to me. we do not intend to open the search at this time. it was planned in northern virginia and nashville and continue to hire and grow. a lot more to come and what the fallout from this very big decision from this massive company, what it means for new york, what it means for amazon and going forward. thank you so much. we're going to have so much more on this breaking news ahead. ve . which means we use less. three generations of clothes cleaned in one wash. anybody seen my pants? #1 stain and odor fighter, #1 trusted. it's got to be tide.
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welcome to inside politics, i'm john king. thank you for sharing your day with us. the fbi's former number two is worried about russian meddling and they delayed asking the president declared unfit for office. vice president pence rebuked three key american allies, accusing france, germany and the united kingdom of being soft on iran. the deal is printed. senate first, the house this evening, then the


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