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tv   Fareed Zakaria GPS  CNN  September 29, 2019 7:00am-8:00am PDT

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this is gps, global public square. welcome to all of you in the united states and around the world. i'm fareed zakaria. we'll begin today's show where this wild week began, with brittain's supreme court finding boris johnson's actions
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unlawful. and with the u.s. house of representatives launching impeachment inquiry into the actions of president trump. >> impeachment for that? >> i'll discuss both in an exclusive interview with brittain's former prime minister, david cameron. then we'll dig deeper into the other nation of the center of the impeachment inquiry, ukraine. pam applebaum will explain the connection between ukraine and america. also, iran. secretary pompeo said that this week at the u.n. the u.s. made real progress uniting the world to get tough on the islamic republic. will this bring tehran to the table to negotiate or provoke it even further? and israel's inconclusive election results. will beebe netanyahu be able to
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form another government? i'll talk to the "new york times'" tom freedman. but first here's my take. whether you think it rises to the level of an impeachable offense, can we all agreed that what president trump did was profoundly wrong? he pressured a foreign government to dig up dirt on his political opponent. this is very different from the russia investigation, which was at its core about whether the candidate trump had colluded. in the case of the ukraine, the president is accused of using the awesome power of the united states. how they could make a life or death difference for ukraine, preserve his personal political gain. sadly, it's part of a pattern of political violations. the mueller report shows that he actively tried to curtail the
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special investigation. trump has allegedly dangled pardons for officials who might break the law in carrying out his immigration agenda. he has repeatedly lambasted the investigative agencies or even worse, pressured them to investigate his political opponents. he has ignored congressional subpoenas and refused to turn over documents. trump is a particularly egregious example, but his misbehavior fits a global trend. after all, boris johnson engaged in a political maneuver suspending parliament that brittain's supreme court unanimously ruled was unlawful. india's norendra modi have terrified his minorities and ee roses the secular culture. duterte has done the same. they have managed to change the constitution to assist in one party or one man rule.
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many scholars and writers have chronicled the democratic recession. roberto stefan fuoi has compiled data showing that enthusiasm for autocrats has grown. between 1995 and 2014 there were large increases in the share of people who would like to see a strong leader who does not have to bother with parliament and elections growing by nearly 10 points in the u.s., almost 20 points in spain and south korea, and about 25 points in russia and south africa. why is this? the best i can guess is that we're living in times of great change and this world people feel insecure and anxious. they don't believe that existing institutions are serving them well. of 27 democracies surveyed by pew, a majority in 21 countries say they see little change regardless of who wins an election. so people are open to supporting
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populus leaders who play on their fears, seize on scapegoats and promise to take decisive action. add to this the rising reality of tribal politics, the sense that each of us is on a team and our team is always in the right. tribalism is the enemy of institutions, norms and the rule of law. in a recent book milan vischnov shows that politicians charged with a crime are more likely to win elections in india. in tribal politics people actually celebrate leaders who break the law because they are supposedly doing so to help their tribe. political parties used to act as gate keepers and norm seters keeping out populists and demo goi demagogues. they can raise money outside the party using social media to exploit the very anger that
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parties used to moderate. in his 1960 study of american politics, clinton rossiter declared no america without america, no democracy without politics, no politics without parties, no parties without compromise in moderation. american democracy today desperately needs the republican party to play a role that upholds democracy rather than feasting on its destruction. for more go to and read my washington post column this week. and let's get started. ♪ ♪ anglo american institutions this week pushed back against actions by their nation's populist leaders. first, the british supreme court found prime minister boris johnson's suspension of parliament to have been
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unlawful. then the u.s. house of representatives launched an impeachment inquiry into president trump. i want to talk about both events with my first guest, david cameron. this is the first u.s. television interview for the former british prime minister, the man who called the brexit referendum. his new book is "for the record." david, pleasure to have you on. >> great to be with you. >> first question which you must always be asked is do you not regret putting your country through the nightmare of this brexit drama? should you not just have ever had this brexit? >> i feel huge sadness about the situation we're in now, the difficulties we face. i mean, they will come to an end. we will solve this. when i look back, as i do in the book, lots of regrets of things i could have done differently. perhaps a better negotiation. perhaps a better timing. i felt then and i still feel now that a referendum was
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inevitable. there was not just growing political pressure because we had treaty after treaty and power after power. there was a genuine problem with the development of the euro, the organization we were in was changing in front of our eyes. i felt it was inevitable. i wanted for us to have a renegotiation and referendum to deal with them and they clearly have failed in that endeavor. >> tony blaire, your predecessor says the country is clearly divided and confused about what exactly it means to do brexit. is it hard? is it soft? that's why there should be a second referendum. do you agree? >> i think the first thing that ought to happen is for the prime minister to go back to brussels, to negotiate a deal for us to carry out the outcome of the referendum which is to leave and become as i put it friends and neighbors and partners with the european union but not members. i threw everything into the campaign for us to stay. but the result went another way.
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if we can't get that deal, we are then still after three years stuck. one of the ways of getting unstuck is to have a general election or to have a second referendum. my view is we shouldn't rule them out. they may be necessary to get us out of the situation but the first priority of prime minister boris johnson, he has my support, is getting a deal in brussels in order for us to leave as friends, neighbors and partners. >> you say in the book boris johnson didn't really believe in brexit, that he actually adopted this position purely for his political advantage. >> all i explain in the book is when i called around and wanted boris johnson on my side i said to him, you've never previously supported leaving. you've been a euro skeptic. you wanted reform. you think my deal of changes, important though i thought they were, were not enough. that's not a reason for leaving. he made his choice and i talk about that in the book but now he's prime minister, he has this
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huge responsibility. i want him to succeed in getting a sensible deal with the european union and taking that to the house of commons and passing it. i think the one thing we ought to avoid is leaving without a deal. i think that would be bad for our economy, bad for the united kingdom, bad actually for the european union, too. if we can't get that deal we will have to find another way of getting out of the situation to which we've become stuck. >> you took the conservative party and tried to modernize it. you came out very strongly in favor of more inclusive party, gay marriage, it reminds me of george w. bush who tried to create a compassionate conservatism. both of those parties have been taken over essentially by populists. why? >> i don't completely accept that comparison. yes, the conservative party has been running a government that wants to deliver brexit, which is not my approach, but actually it still is a conservative party
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that reflects the changes that i made over 11 years of leaving it. it has women in peace and it has people of black and ethnics variety. and it continues to spread and it bans equal marriage. >> it's banning foreigners, immigration. in that sense it is more xenophobic. >> i don't think it's more true if you want to deliver brexit doesn't mean you can't be a compassionate conservative. i don't think those things have to go together. if you're asking me what lies behind what is happening in our politics, i would go back to 2008 and the financial crash and the deep recessions we suffered and the sense that people have that while globalization has had many successes, we have seen in recent years a sense of economic insecurity. people at the bottom feeling they're not getting a fair
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break. the wages have been too stagnant and a sense of cultural insecurity. that immigration levels have been very high, in my country or across the european union and in the united states. people feel not enough has been done to address these issues. you add into that mix the modern way the media works. where people can create their own television channels, facts, and that's made the rise in populism take place. my view as conservatism is there's no sense in raging about it. you have to deal with the causes. let's have better control of immigration. higher wages, tax code and let's make sure that we can have media truthful that's a reasonable umpire for our debates. stay with us. next on "gps," prime minister cameron on america's problems when we come back.
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and we are back with david cameron, the former british prime minister and the author of "for the record." david, you've seen a lot of politicians in action. what do you make of donald trump? >> well, there are not many areas where we agree on the face of things. i'm a believer in action to tackle climate change, i'm not sure he is. i'm a staunch defender in nato. he says it's obsolete. i'm a believer in free trade and he's taken protectionist steps. i believe in the relationship between brittain and the united states that we have to find ways to work together. let's start where we agree, the fight against islamists and terrorism. donald trump has not been quite the same as the candidate we
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heard. he has actually been more positive about nato. that is very important. the economy and tax changes have been positive. british prime ministers, we should try and find things where we can agree and where we can work together rather than emphasizing a lot of the differences we might have. >> he's done something extraordinary into waiting into british politics. when boris johnson was not prime minister he openly and loudly supported him, kept talking about how he would be good. why do you think he finds that commonality? >> i think interestingly both of them are quite establishment figures and yet sort of raging against the establishment. they obviously have some commonality and there are some similarities in what happened with the brexit vote and what happened with the election of donald trump in 2016. but, look, i want the relationship to work whoever is the prime minister, whoever is the president and so i think --
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i mean, donald trump does go about politics in a totally different way. people like me who are perhaps a bit more traditional about things you'd say about other people's election campaigns and all the rest of it, we have to recognize maybe some of the rules are changing. >> let me ask you about ukraine. i know you're going to be careful, but i want to ask you something that i think you have both knowledge and authority on and can speak about which is the charge that donald trump makes about joe biden is that biden was trying to get the ukrainians to fire the chief prosecutor. a lot of experts and media reports say that was a demand being made by the europeans, the united states. it was all part of an effort to rid ukraine of corruption and the argument was this guy was himself thoroughly corrupt and therefore he had to go. do you recall that process? do you think it's fair to say that what biden was doing was
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asking for something that essentially the world was asking in firing this prosecutor? >> i don't recall all of the specifics about the specific individuals, but it's certainly true to say that the british view i think in common with the american view was that ukraine needed to do more to tackle corruption. ukraine actually is a country with a huge potential to success. it's a big country. big population. it could be as wealthy and successful of a country like poland, its neighbor, which is many times richer than ukraine. our view is we are helping you in terms of your defense and helping you in terms of standing up to the russian aggression but you need to help us by standing up to it in ukraine. >> many people told me at the time that you and angela merkel were the two staunchest defenders of the idea that you
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had to be tough on the russians for the invasion of ukraine, for the annexation of crimea. you had to keep sanctions in place. other people were more comfortable getting rid of the sanctions. do you worry that the european union and the west will not stay firm, particularly with all of this complexity of what's happened in ukraine and that the russians will be able to get away with it? >> i do worry about it. my view was simple that when it came to the russian incursion into georgia, which happened some years before in ukraine, they were weak. we made a fuss and there were no proper sanctions and measures when russia took advantage of the situation in the ukraine, stole a peace of territory, we knew there would be consequences. we knew we couldn't militarily reverse it but we put in place sanctions and we linked the e.u.
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and put in place sanctions at the same time and the same way. i think it's very important we keep that up. i think it's the only language that putin understands on this issue of what he considers his near abroad but what i consider to be countries that want a free, democratic, european future. >> final thoughts on iran. you were there when the iran deal was negotiated. do you think that the americans made a mistake by pulling out of it? >> well, i do because it's certainly right to say the deal had its imperfections but all deals have their imperfections. fundamentally what we managed to negotiate, i give a great credit to president obama, all the work he did, what we managed to negotiate was keep iran permanently away from having a nuclear weapon with the right to inspect and verify that that was the case. and the trouble with getting out of it is you're replacing something with huge uncertainty. by all means try and improve on
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the deal, try and make sure it runs on for longer but actually walking away from it without a real answer i think actually makes the world less safe than more safe. >> are you worried there might be actual conflict in the middle east? >> i worry it's a very dangerous situation and of course i share all the concerns of those in congress and the president who say that iran has a terrible record, that it supports terrorist groups, i share all of those arguments, but often in politics and international affairs, we're not dealing with perfection and we're not dealing with a choice that is brilliant against a choice that is terrible, we're dealing with a set of often poor choices but you pick the best one you can and that's what i think our deal did in getting rid of that deal makes the situation more unsafe. >> david cameron, pleasure to have you on. the pulitzer prize winning
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anna applebaum, why this sounded familiar to the people of ukraine when we come back. we're woven together by the moments we share. everything you need, all in one place. expedia. they're america's bpursuing life-changing cures. in a country that fosters innovation here, they find breakthroughs... like a way to fight cancer by arming a patient's own t-cells... because it's not just about the next breakthrough... it's all the ones after that.
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a book that you're ready to share with the world? get published now, call for your free publisher kit today! in a survey conducted five years ago, 84% of americans could not locate ukraine on a map. given russia's invasion of crimea and this week's whistle-blower news, i hope that number has come down significantly. look at the map. it is here, by the way. anyway, this nation that is now on our front pages every day is still an enigma to many. let me bring in ann applebaum. she has just returned from kiev. she just wrote a book "red famine, stalin's war on ukraine." what has the backlash been for zelensky, the new president of ukraine, once particularly the transcript or the read out of
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this phone call between him and trump became public? >> it's important to take a step back and remember that for the past 30 years, almost 30 years, the united states and ukraine and the rest of the post soviet space has been advocating the rule of law, judicial independence. we've been arguing over and over again that ukraine should have independent prosecutors. that the legal system needs to be depot lit sized in order to end corruption and this scandal, this story which by the way of course people in kiev have known about for the last couple of months. the scandal has shown that the united states practices precisely the kinds of disportions of the law, precisely the politicization that they have been trying to get out for the last decade. first of all, the scandal and the distress is shock at what's happening to the united states. this looks to a lot of
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ukrainians like a very familiar activity. president of the country trying to use his -- use the legal system putting pressure on another country in order to achieve a political goal in order to get dirt or a fake story about one of his opponents. that's the main reaction. for zelensky himself, there's a lot of sympathy for him. he was in an impossible position. he was being asked to do something that was illegal. he knew there was no story about joe biden. on the other hand, he doesn't want to anger the president of the united states and he's trying to walk a line in between. as the story develops, i'm sure people will -- their views will begin to change. >> in the phone call it's clear that zelensky is walking this fine line as you say. he doesn't ever really agree to the demands that trump makes. he sort of obfuscates them and
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he stays at his hotel and things like that. later on denied he felt pressure. at some level he's in a no-win situation, right? >> oh, yeah, absolutely. it looks to me from looking at this transcript, this is just a guess, that he's been advised to say some of those things. there are other world leaders who had experience speaking to trump and there is certainly the perception that what you need to do when you talk to the american president now is flatter him, talk about his hotels, say that you stayed in one of them and it's clearly an attempt to -- clearly an attempt to try and get in with the united states president even though, as i said, of course he knows as he repeated in the last couple of days that there is no case to investigate, that the story about joe biden is phony and that the additional story, which is the trump -- trump on that call and also went on about -- something about a serve jer being in ukraine and some
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ukrainian involvement in the 2016 election, all of that. everybody knows that's not true. it's a conspiracy that trump has picked up. >> zelensky knows this and this is a profoundly corrupt situation that is weirdly familiar to ukrainians because it's the kind of thing they've been trying to get out of their system. in other words, they've been trying to -- this use of conspiracy theory in politics, the politization in the legal system, all of this is something ukrainians have been trying to persuade their leaders to change for a decade. >> what does this all look like from vladimir putin's perspective? so, look, this is exactly the kind of story that is wonderful for vladimir putin. putin's line -- if you wash rtc russian media over the last several years, you will see over
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and over again an implication, a story, russia might be corrupt. you know the country that's really corrupt? it's the united states. you might hear lines like, okay, the americans talk a lot about democracy, they talk a lot about independent judges, all of that, but really they're a country just like us. this scandal, this story fits perfectly into this particular russia narrative. the u.s. is corrupt, ukraine is corrupt, everybody is corrupt and we're all cynical and it's okay the russian state is profoundly corrupt as well. this is an ideal line. there are some indications that some. otder details that you heard on that call, again, mention of some kind of server in ukraine. some ukrainian responsible for the 2016 election. some of that may have come from russia. those are scandals -- sorry, those are conspiracy theories that have appeared in some of the more conspiratorial websites to the united states. some of it may even come from
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russia. >> ann applebaum, always a pleasure to talk to you. >> thanks. next on "gps," the u.s. keeps tightening the screws on iran. will it work or will it backfire? more towers. more coverage! it's a network that gives you ♪freedom from big cities, to small towns, we're with you. because life can take you almost anywhere, t-mobile is with you. no signal goes farther or is more reliable in keeping you connected. "have you lost weight?" of course i have- ever since i started renting from national. because national lets me lose the wait at the counter... ...and choose any car in the aisle. and i don't wait when i return, thanks to drop & go. at national, i can lose the wait...and keep it off.
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uniting the world on pressuring iran. then on thursday iranian president rouhani confirmed that iran had started enriching uranium with advanced centrifuges breaking another stipulation of the nuclear deal it signed in 2015. so is iran going to be pressured into compliance or will tightening the screws provoke it even further? joining me is dina asfiandi. dina, welcome. the crucial question is, is it possible to pressure the iranians into either further concessions once they get to the negotiating table or even just to get to the negotiating table or are they going to stay -- stand firm with their decision which is until sanctions are lifted we don't come back to the negotiating table? >> well, from iran's perspective it's really difficult to give in to the kind of pressure the u.s. is putting on it right now. why is that?
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it sets a press department for the future. if iran folds now and comes to the negotiating table after it's been squeezed, the signal it sends to the rest of the world is every time you want something from us, squeeze us and we'll give in. from their perspective it's absolutely untenable to do that. >> one thing i've noticed is saudi arabia has actually been very quiet even though it was the one attack. it seems very wary of a provocation, of a war. it did not call this an act of war. mike pompeo did. the saudis have not called for retaliation and they themselves are not retaliating even though they have a very large, substantial, modern military. >> that's right. the saudis have called for the international community to stand strong in the face of the iranian threat. they haven't called for any kind of military action. the reason for that is the saudis, much like the emirates know that if war were to break out, they would be the first ones in the line of fire.
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they would be the first ones to suffer, which is why they're calling for caution. >> could the iranians lash out? the place that i worry the most about is iraq, which is remarkably stable right now but, of course, iran has lots of influence there. it could very easily up end the rest. >> iraq is an area iran could lash out. the persian gulf is an easy area. iran has threatened the gulf arab states. it's threatened dubai directly in case it was attacked first. there's a range of areas that they could use. >> rouhani when he signed the deal was extremely popular. zarif had 80%. what is going to happen in the next election? will the next president likely be a hard liner?
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>> it's very difficult to say because iranian elections are notoriously difficult to predict, but it's certain that the rouhani administration placed all their bets in one basket, the jcpoa basket. as a result they kind of put aside some of the social and political issues they to deal with t. now that it's failing and the economy isn't doing so well, they're facing a very difficult situation. the hard liners, however, on the other side of the spectrum have been consistently criticizing them for giving in to the americans and the europeans. it's likely that the battle grounds for the next election are going to be quite vicious, quite aggressive and the hard liners do have a leg up. ultimately it turns out they were right. >> dena, thank you. thank you. up next, who will be the next prime minister of israel? is it all up in the air? i will ask thomas freedman when
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we come back.
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president gave current prime minister benjamin netanyahu the first chance to try to form a government. netanyahu's party finished the mid-september elections essentially in a dead heat with the rival blue and white party. that is headed by benny gantz. it's unclear that either netanyahu or gantz can gather enough support from other parties to form a government. let's bring in the former jerusalem bureau chief, tom freedman. tom, everyone was writing political obituaries about beebe netanyahu. is he going to be able to come back again? >> fareed, i would not take the fact that israel's president gave him the first crack at forming a government because he had technically one more potential seat than his opponent, benny gantz. it's going to be very difficult for netanyahu to form a majority government because his coalition basically is his liqud party and
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then a collection of far right nationalists. blue and white is a much more centrist party and is allied with some others to the left. the key swing vote carrier is mr. lieberman and his party and lieberman has said, i will never sit in a government with the ultra orthodox and super nationalists. beebe needs to find a break in the blue and white party, find a few people to defect. i think it's going to be very hard. it's likely he'll have to give back that mandate, that chance to form a government to gantz. in between when beebe gives up and gantz takes over, beebe faces a day in court. he is possibly, almost likely going to be indicted on some counts of corruption and malfeasance in government and what i think gantz is hoping for, fareed, if beebe is indicted, that some members of his party might say, you know what, we've got to move on
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without him. because gantz will not go into a government that bibi leaves. netanyahu fails to put a government together. he has his day in court and gantz comes along and tries to woo them to join with him without bibi. >> since i have you, tom, i have to ask you about this impeachment inquiry. do you think this time it's different, that the mueller report came out, didn't seem to get as much traction as perhaps some people thought. this one seems to be, you know, certainly the house of representatives, moderate democrats seem to have felt that this is different? >> fareed, i think it's different from the muller report in one key and overwhelmingly important point. mueller was a guy who sat behind a screen for two years. donald trump could delegitimize him for two years. he had no voice. and all of us didn't really know what was going on there and it involved a bunch of russians in
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far off places. this is very clear, very easy to understand. it's right before your eyes. a conscientious objecting civil servant working in the white house saw and heard reports that the president called a foreign leader, the president of ukraine, and asked him to take out a political rival of his, joe biden, by opening an investigation into him. that's very, very clear. very easy to understand. a second point i would make. a friend of mine has been saying to me for a while, the democrats are never going to take down donald trump. only trump can take down donald trump. he said, trump reminds me of the heavy weight boxer mike tyson. no one could beat mike tyson. only mike tyson could beat mike tyson. he did it one day when he bit off evander holifield's ear. one day donald trump is going to bite off somebody's ear. i think he might have done it right here. he's bitten off a lot more than he can chew here. i'd make a third point, fareed.
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there's a word that i think is going to become very important in this story. it's a word that democrats should hug and trump should fear and that word is independence. for trump what is so dangerous about this story is that involves independent, i would say heroic u.s. civil servants. this cia analyst at the white house, the u.s. ambassador to ukraine, all the anonymous people who are feeding this analyst at the white house, who saw what the president did trying to enlist in a mafia-like style a foreign leader to help him rub out a political rival and these people stood up and they're going to have faces and they're going to have voices and for the first time donald trump is going to be up against an enemy, a challenger that won't be easy to delegitimize. independent, heroic u.s. government civil servant. that's one thing. for him -- for the democrats i would say to make hay on this
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issue, they need to hold tight to that word independent as well. they need to stop the hearings with 30 different knuckle head congressmen asking their uninformed questions. they need to hire as they did in watergate a professional prosecutor and they need to make this story the american constitution and its values against donald trump. if they go over board on this and make it the democratic party against donald trump not the independent constitution represented by professional lawyer, they'll be making a huge mistake. democrats need to hug independence and trump needs to fear it. >> tom friedman, always a pleasure. >> thank you, fareed. >> and we will be back. ♪ (music plays throughout) ♪
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our guest on last week's show, u.n. secretary general an attorney-client privilege yes gutierrez hosted a summit last week. it brings me to my question. which of the following goods or services has the largest carbon footprint? commercial aviation, dairy
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farming, cement or waste disposal? stay tuned and we'll tell you the correct answer. my book of the week is "education of an idealist" by samantha power. this is the story of an idealist who wrote movingly about america's inaction in the face of genocide, who joined the obama administration and grapples with its actions and inactions in the face of humanitarian disasters like syria. power writes about her father's alcoholism to the debates in the national security council and she delivers one of the best written political memoirs of recent years. the answer to my gps challenge this week is c, the cement industry accounts for 7% of the world's man-made carbon dioxide emissions but that may change. many big banks and acid owners
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agreed to align and making sure the planet doesn't warm more than 2.7 degrees fahrenheit this century. in fact, big investors have been leveraging their power over oil and gas companies, extracting commitments on climate action from companies like royal dutch shell. global investors have asked for commitments to reach carbon neutrality by 2050. altering the course of the climate crisis presents itself as a greatest for our ingenuity from the food we eat to the liberal building blocks of modern society. we have to find ways to reengineer the way we live. thanks to all of you for being part of my program this week. i will see you next week. full of- woo! full of good. so you can be too. try our new warm grain bowls today. panera. food as it should be.
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and the magic power of unlocking your room with your phone. i can read minds too. really? book at if you find a lower rate, we match it and give you 25% off that stay. expect better. expect hilton. hey, i'm brian stelter. breaking news as we begin this special edition "reliable sources" white house in crisis. we have some big names including nancy pelosi's daughter christine. plus president trump's confidante chris ruddy is here. we have a surprise visit from the one, the only robert deniro. what a difference a week makes. extraordinary developments in the ukraine scandal. it's moving fast and now the impeachment inquiry is moving quickly as well. it has a lot of people wondering, has president trump finally met a story that he can't control? now right now he is watching fox news and