tv Anderson Cooper 360 CNN December 3, 2019 5:00pm-6:00pm PST
sometimes he doesn't. >> reporter: they both have the ear of the president. >> i'm candid in my opinions, and i share them, solicited or otherwise. >> reporter: kate bennett, cnn washington. >> be certain to check out kate bennett's new book, "free melania." thanks for joining us. ac 360 starts now. good evening, the house intelligence committee's impeachment report is out, and if you thought you already knew everything that would be in it, well, there's more. the committee voted to adopt it tonight as expected along party lines. the bottom line of the report is this, quote, the impeachment inquiry has found that president trump personally and acting through agents within and outside the u.s. government solicited the interference of a foreign government, ukraine, to benefit his election or his re-election, i should say. that's the part that we expected. what we didn't know was that the report would cite newly revealed hard evidence, phone records making it clear that this is not merely about that phone call the president made on july 25th during which he asked ukraine's
president to investigate the bidens and that conspiracy theory absolving russia in the 2016 election, nor is it only about withholding military aid and a white house meeting as pressure. instead these new phone records put all of that into a time frame, and potentially expose a plan or a scheme, call it what you will, stretching back months involving many of the president's closest allies, including none other than congressman devin nunes who is the ranking republican on the intelligence committee who for months has attacked the investigation, and as you know, spent much of the hearings trash talking them. so as you listen to this, him trash talking the very hearings he's overseeing or partly overseeing, remember that. >> this is a carefully orchestrated media smear campaign. what you're seeing in this room over the past two weeks is a show trial. the witnesses deemed suitable for television by the democrats
were put through a closed door audition process in a cult-like atmosphere in the basement of the capitol. >> while it is a partisan venture and it's not a real impeachment the way that impeachment processes worked the other times it's been used. >> what have they delivered? the impeachment version of three card monte, notorious short con card trick where the mark, in this case president trump and the american public, stands no chance of winning. >> congressman nunes all over this report, and not in a good way. instead, according to democrats call records obtained by the committee from our parent company at&t link congressman nunes to a, quote, coordinated effort by associates of are president trump to push false narratives publicly about the ambassador to ukraine at the time and the bidens. that alleged effort, according to the report's time line included nunes, a former reporter for the hill named john solomon, the president's lawyer rudy giuliani and his contact
lev parnas. the call records, which, again, we didn't know about until this afternoon, are important because they anchor the time line at certain key points, including the smear campaign against marie yovanovitch. records cited in the report show that in the 48 hours before a march 20th opinion piece by solomon attacking the ambassador, solomon and parnas spoke at least half a dozen times as well again for 11 minutes on the 20th. shortly thereafter, president trump plugged that story in a tweet. rudy giuliani also turnsz up i early may as plans to a dirt gathering trip to ukraine became known. phone records show him speaking on may 8th to someone in the white house, also to solomon, parnas and a staffer per congressman nunes. that evening he went on fox to peddle the biden smear. >> the big story, it's a
dramatic story, and i guarantee you joe biden will not get to election day without this being investigated. not because i want to see him investigated. this is collateral to what i was doing. >> phone records also show giuliani speaking to someone at the office of management and budget, which testimony has tied to the hold on military assistance to ukraine. now, as for congressman nunes himself, phone records cited in the report show contacts between him, giuliani, parnas, and solomon after a solomon article on april 7th. again, this is the ranking member on a committee overseeing the executive branch, the president's personal attorney his now indicted alleged bag man and a journalist pushing smears, and this is months before the president's call with the ukraine president. as today's impeachment report states, it's all part of the same alleged plan or scheme to squeeze political favors out of ukraine, and now we know there are these phone records. we of course asked congressman nunes to come on the broadcast.
he declined. ma na ra ja also gave him a chance to comment. >> is there a reaction to being named in the report sir? so that happened. rudy giuliani who's seldom at a loss for words declined to comment. president trump who's in london for nato meetings spoke shortly before the report came out saying this about chairman schiff when asked about republican plans to call him as an impeachment witness. >> i think he's a maniac. >> what would you want to learn? >> adam schiff is a deranged human being. i think he grew up with a complex for lots of reasons that are obvious. i think he's a very sick man, and he lies. >> those are the actual words of a president of the united states. that is now how presidents talk, not like nixon drunk late at night ranting on a tape recorder, in broad daylight. chairman schiff joins us on the
broadcast. the report also makes a case that the president obstructed the inquiry itself, both potentially impeachable offenses, something the judiciary committee takes up in public hearings tomorrow. right now we're joined by intelligence committee member sean patrick maloney, democrat of new york. these phone records that show ranking member devin nunes speaking with indicted giuliani associate lev parnas several times, and i'm going to be speaking with chairman schiff in just a few minutes, what was your reaction to those calls? i mean, do you see congressman nunes as a participant in all of this? should he have somehow recused himself? >> well, look, i think the important thing is that we stay focused on the president's conduct and the president's misconduct. i think we have known for some time that there was an organized effort to smear our ambassador marie yovanovitch, and that part of that involved planting stories in right wing outlets and seeding this false narrative around ukraine and this is really fleshing out some of the details of that. obviously devin nunes has some difficult questions to answer.
you know, it's never a good thing when you're paling around with people who have been indicted. he should answer those questions, but my focus and the focus of the committee's report is on the president, and the president's misconduct. >> and it is, i mean, it's a damning report for your committee, much of it was obviously discussed during the public hearings. now for the first time, though, democrats are saying that the president did three to obstruct a congressional investigation, which is obviously a grave accusation. i'm wondering, i mean, were the facts simply glaring was? was that a difficult decision to come to? is there a political calculation in that about whether it should have just been limited to the actions themselves? >> well, i just think it's the only plain way to say it. you're talking about a situation where as we sit here the white house, including the national security council, the office of management and budget agencies like the department of defense, the state department have not produced a single document under subpoena to the committee. all of the work that we have done, all of the facts we have
put out into the public domain have been done despite this obstructive conduct by the white house, instructing people not to testify, withholding people like the chief of staff. obviously people who have important stories to tell, so i just think it's the plain truth that the president has sought to obstruct this investigation at every turn, and i think that's something he needs to be held accountable for along with everything else. >> so this report now goes to the judiciary committee. it holds its first hearing tomorrow. there are, as you know, democrats who want to bring issues related to the mueller investigation into any articles of impeachment. would you be in favor of that? >> look, i'm going to defer to the judiciary committee and let them do their work. what we've done on the intel committee is pursuant to the house resolution rapidly, and i think very productively uncovered the evidence, the clear and convincing evidence of the president's misconduct with respect to ukraine. now, look, there's a long list of other areas where the president has behaved improperly, and i understand the
desire to hold him accountable in those areas, and it's important that there be congressional oversight of things like -- well, it's a long list -- of the emoluments clause and always other areas where the president has perhaps violated the constitution, and remember, those investigations have been obstructed, too. and we're only now getting to the point where the courts are going to hopefully provide greater access to the documents and the witnesses. my two cents at this stage, there is clear and convincing evidence of the president's misconduct on ukraine, and we should focus first and foremost on that. >> appreciate your time, thank you. >> thank you. >> joining us now is cnn chief legal analyst, jeffrey toobin, usa today columnist, and john dean. jeff, now that this shifts to judiciary, what is your reaction to the case that the democrats on intel have laid out? >> well, i think it's a very strong case because the issue in impeachment is not was a crime committed. the issue is was there an abuse
of power. i mean, if you look at the history, the federalist papers, the constitution itself, what the framers were concerned about is misuse of the power of the presidency, and if you read these 300 pages, what you see is there is absolutely no doubt that the president used his power of the president, his power to hold an oval office meeting, his power to withhold $390 million in aid in return for something that did no good for the country but was only for his political benefit. that is abuse of power, and i think the case is completely made by what the intelligence committee has put forward. >> john, as we just showed, congressman nunes was talking on the phone to one of giuliani's since indicted associates lev parnas who seems to want to speak as well. what does it say about nunes's potential involvement? >> well, it was a surprise to find him in there. the first thing i did after discovering his name outside of
the committee was to look to see if they listed him amongst the key persons where they have an appendix afterwards. they didn't do that. obviously in deference to his position on the committee because he comes out to be a key person in telling this story. as jeff knows, this has the scent also of an operation that could be a criminal conspiracy going on here to somehow defraud the federal government, and that could involve the congressman and the congressional privilege is very narrow. it's a debate and functioning provision, and it doesn't work very well when you get outside the hall of congress and start doing activities. >> and we reached out to lev parnas's attorney bondi who told us that the phone records were not obtained via his client but that they corroborate mr. parnas in key respects and if called as
a witness, he's prepared to explain himself. i mean, the irony here is that the republicans continue to call this a very unfair process, criticize the democrats in their handling of the inquiry, while at the same time congressman nunes, the ranking member in the process for the republicans is potentially involved here and has said nothing about that while being, you know, listening to testimony. >> right, i mean, i think at a minimum he should have disclosed this. he should have recused himself, right? he is not a disinterested party in this, and for him to not have disclosed this publicly so people understand where he's coming from i think is a major problem, and lev parnas's attorney had stated -- has stated publicly that he's, you know, according to lev parnas, that he was looking into biden. he was looking into getting dirt on biden, and so this is the same person who constantly complaining about the steele
dossi dossier, right, because this was done by a foreign person and meanwhile looks like was involved in something -- and certainly has been defending something where you had the administration going to a foreign government seeking campaign -- dirt against a campaign opponent. >> can i just say who cares about devin nunes? what i care about is donald trump. i mean, this whole story was orchestrated by the president, and the remarkable thing about this document is that it doesn't have the voices of some of the key players, john bolton, mulvaney, the chief of staff. i mean, it would almost certainly be a worse story if they were involved, and the key focus it seems to me here is did the president misuse his power, and that's what's so important, and that's what's proved to my satisfaction in this document. >> joe, how important are the phone records? i mean, you look -- i just want
to put some of them for giuliani on the screen here from the report, april 24th, the very day the ambassador to ukraine, the american ambassador marie yovanovitch was pulled from her post, you've got giuliani on the phone with the white house eight times, you know, again, we don't know what was discussed because there's no records coming from the white house. >> right, but i mean, yes, that's important, but it's not as a fraction as important as the president of the united states saying to the president of ukraine saying talk to rudy giuliani. i mean, rudy giuliani obviously was the key person here. i mean, the fact that devin nunes, who has been a total, toady, and someone who has done nothing but carry the white house's water since the president was elected, you know, that's not a surprise, but what's so important here is that the president outsourced this whole operation to rudy giuliani whose interests are not those of the american people.
they're only those of donald trump. >> yeah. >> and potentially rudy giuliani who clearly has business interests in ukraine -- sorry, go ahead. >> i was going to say, i agree that the main story is what donald trump did, there's no question, but i think that we can also care about what devin nunes did, and i agree he's been a stooge for trump, and that's not particularly surprising, but to sit there and to be leading the republican side of this investigation basically of the hearings, and to not disclose this relationship to what he's actually investigating, i still think that matters. it may not be as important as trump, but it still matters. >> and i do think it's important to point out, again, and just reiterate that these are details democrats were able to get despite the white house refusing to cooperate with any part of in investigation, the state department, the office of management and budget. they also lay out their attempts to get more information in the report saying, quote, it's hard to imagine a more complete case of obstruction. do you agree with that?
congress hasn't heard from bolton as jeff pointed out. >> very strong point. here's what the second thing they have done is to point out that the abuse of congress here and the obstruction of congress is much more compelling than it was in the nixon case. they have built that in this report as they take it to -- >> it's more compelling. >> -- judiciary where they already have that report. it's more compelling than the case they made against nixon. >> you're saying this white house went farther in terms of obstruction of justice than nick sob. >> yes, did and that's noted in the report. >> i think that's a really important point. the other two impeachments of the 20th century, bill clinton, and richard nixon, they were both much more forthcoming and cooperative, with documents on witnesses, than the president was, and it would be very surprising to me in light of all of this that obstruction of
congress isn't a separate article of impeachment in addition to the abuse of power on the whole ukraine relationship. >> jeff too been, kristen powers, john dean. >> and much more difficult for the senate to vote against. a lawmaker who was in camp days before aid to ukraine finally began flowing, and who may be called on to be a juror if the president's impeached. the man behind tonight's report, adam schiff joins us live. donald trump failed as a businessman. he borrowed billions
and left a trail of bankruptcy and broken promises. he hasn't changed. i started a tiny investment business, and over 27 years, grew it successfully to 36 billion dollars. i'm tom steyer and i approve this message. i'm running for president because unlike other candidates, i can go head to head with donald trump on the economy, and expose him fo what he is: a fraud and a failure.
(vo) when you share the love, you change lives. over twenty-two hundred wishes granted. more than fifty seven thousand pets supported. over one hundred national parks protected. over two million meals provided. through the subaru share the love event, subaru will have proudly donated over one hundred seventy million dollars to national and hometown charities over twelve years. (shelter attendant) thank you. (grandfather) thank you. (senior) thank you. (make-a-wish child) thank you. we're talking tonight about the house intelligence committee report adopted tonight along party lines and the revelation that there are phone records oaf key players at pivotal moments in the affair, including the ranking member of the intelligence committee devin nunes. joining us is senator chris murphy of connecticut, he and his republican counter part traveled to kyiv in september with u.s. aid to ukraine still frozen. senator murphy, first of all, just your reaction to the house intelligence committee report accusing the president of misconduct and obstruction. is there -- i mean, what's your
biggest takeaway? >> i think it just confirms what we've known for a long time, the president was using the massive power of the oval office and taxpayer dollars to try to get a foreign government to interfere in american politics. what we have learned over the course of the last several months is that the scope of this corruption was massive involving high ranking officials in the white house and the department of state and was directly connected back to the president himself. i don't know why you have the power of impeachment in mt. constituti -- in the constitution if not to be used for a scheme of this magnitu magnitude. if the president gets away with this, i'm not sure what will ever stop a president from using all of the powers of the executive branch to try to destroy their political opponents or win an election. i think it's a very impressive report, and it speaks to the gravity of the crimes. >> and should devin nunes have said something? i mean, you know, you have the
ranking member of the house intelligence committee who i don't know if he was a key player, but he was certainly i guess, you know, they were having phone calls with lev parnas and giuliani and solomon and parnas is indicted. should he have said something, even evif he didn't recuse himself? >> i mean, certainly representative nunes should have let folks know that he had been coordinating and communicating with rudy giuliani going all the way back to the spring, but you know, ultimately this isn't really a trial of the ranking member of the intelligence committee. it's about what trump did, and you know, it's a reminder, though, that this didn't just get discovered in the late summer and early fall. rudy giuliani was openly crowing about his attempts to try to get the ukrainians to do trump's dirty work back in that april time frame when he was having calls with ranking member nunes, and many of us were raising
those concerns to our senate colleagues at the time. so this has been an open secret for a long, long time whe. we're finally getting to the point that there are some consequences for what trump and his allies have been doing. >> and your republican colleagues have said the only question is whether president trump's conduct is impeachable, not whether it's appropriate, and therein lies potentially a lot of cover for the president's allies. >> yeah, again, i think that my republican colleagues in the senate, you know, have to really think about the precedent that gets set if they endorse the president's actions. i mean, to me, the one sacred covenants that a president makes with the people who elect him is that he's going to use the power of the oval office to protect the nation and to advance the common interests, not to advance his personal political or financial swrinterests. and when you break that coven t covenant, i just don't think you can stay in office because it
simgs that we're on our way to becoming much more like a tin pot dictatorship than a democracy. so if republicans don't vote to render some consequences to president trump for the way that he's abused the office, i think they are just inviting future presidents to do the same. so i'm not letting them off the hook yet. i hope they take the time to read this reports read the articles that get sent over. i'm not giving up on my republican colleagues. >> you know, some of your republican colleagues, i mean, senator john kennedy for one continue to peddle a debunked conspiracy theory that ukraine meddled in the 2016 election. i mean, several current and former trump administration officials themselves have said on the record that just doesn't hold water. you tweeted -- >> yeah. >> -- that the republican party is becoming the most important global asset of russian intelligence. that is scary. >> yeah, it's really scary. what the russians want is for more chum to be thrown in the water regarding what happened in 2016. they love the idea that now
we're engaging in this fantasy where ukraine, not russia, influenced the 2016 election. i will say, though, in the last 24 hours since i sent out had that twe -- out that tweet you referenced, the majority of the republicans in the senate who have commented on senator kennedy's claims have made it pretty clear that the intelligence says russia, not ukraine interfered in the elections, so senator kennedy is, i think, increasingly out on a limb here, and i'm glad that -- although i may not agree with the judgment that my senate republican colleagues render on the president's conduct, at least most of them are not engaged in this just wild trump driven conspiracy theory about what happened in 2016. >> and last i want to ask you about the aid to lebanon that was withheld by the administration and then lifted. you recently got back from a trip there. have you gotten any answers to why it was held up in the first place? obviously there's more attention being paid to this sort of thing. >> yeah, so i think it's really
important that, you know, we get to the bottom of why the trump administration was quietly and mysteriously holding up security aid to lebanon. it's very similar to ukraine. lebanon is at a very perilous moment right now. the military badly needed the aid, and the president held it up without any explanation to congress, exactly what happened in ukraine. now i'm not suggesting there's as nefarious a motive here, but i would hope my republican colleagues would start asking some questions. we have a hearing in the foreign relations committee coming up with state department officials who oversee ukraine. we're going to be asking those questions. the bottom line is the president doesn't have this power. he can't decide to hold aid or put conditions on aid that congress didn't. and all of us, republicans and democrats, have got to stop this behavior from the executive branch in its tracks before it gets out of control. >> senator chris murphy, i appreciate your time. thank you very much. >> thanks. >> up next, the chairman of the intelligence committee, adam schiff joins us live from
capitol hill. we'll talk about the impeachment report that came out today and the comments he made about members of congress who may have been complicit in the activities outlined in the report. anderson cooper 360 brought to you by the lincoln wish list sales event. (children playing) ♪ (music building) experience the power of sanctuary at the lincoln wish list sales event. sign and drive off in a new lincoln with zero down, zero due at signing, and a complimentary first month's payment.
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nunes to the efforts of rudy giuliani and others to dig up dirt on the bidens as well as the ouster of the former u.s. ambassador to ukraine. schiff today would only say there may be evidence that there were members of congress complicit. here's house minority leader kevin mccarthy a short time ago. >> devin nunes has a right to talk to anybody. >> but should he discuss what happened on those phone calls? >> that's a question for devin, but devin has the right to talk to people. there's nothing wrong that devin has done. congressman mccarthy said history will be very kind to those who oppose impeachment. i think adam schiff will have to answer for a great deal. joining me now is the intelligence committee chairman adam schiff. do you worry that you will have a lot the to answer for? this report for the first time lays out a case against the president accusing him of obstructing the impeachment investigation. >> all right well, i think the president is really the one who has a lot to answer for, and as
we laid out in this report, the evidence is quite overwhelming that the president of the united states used the power of his office, $400 million of taxpayer military assistance to help an ally fighting the russians as well as a desperately sought meeting in the white house to coerce an ally into doing his political dirty work, to doing these investigations that he thought would help his re-election. the president will have to answer for that, and we will have to decide here in congress whether this is what the founders had in mind when they provided a remedy to a president that is violating the public trust and endangering the national security. >> today in your press statement, you had a very stark message to your republican colleagues, essentially that if they're willing to let president trump stonewall congress like this, not giving documents from the white house, the office of management and budget or the state dmt, that would fundamentally alter the balance of power between the branches of government for the worse. basically in the future if there's a democratic president,
i mean, this could backfire on the republicans. >> well, without a doubt, and i think they need to think long and hard about this precedent that they would set if they're willing to say or do as mick mulvaney suggested, and just get used to it. just get used to a president saying i will not honor a single congressional subpoena, and i particularly won't honor them if they're investigating wrongdoing or misconduct, malfeasance, even impeachment worthy misconduct if the republicans are prepared to take that position, then they are inviting abuse from a president of either party, and this is a danger that the founding fathers warned us about, which is an excess of factionalism, factions of what they called the political parties and here if because of an allegiance to the party or the person of the president, they're going to betray their oath, they may very well rue the day they did. >> the phone records, which were
were veeld revealed in this, ne details revealed showing devin nunes the ranking member on the house committee allegedly having phone conversations with lev parnas, when did you become aware of these phone calls? i mean, did you know during the hearings that these had occurred? >> you know, i can't go into specifics about when we acquired certain records, but we have known for some time of these contacts, and obviously they are concerning. we know that in the words of dr. hill the president was having people do a domestic political errand for him. that errand being chasing dirt on joe biden, using the power of his office and taxpayer resources to try to coerce ukraine into doing that. if there were members of congress that were also part of that domestic political errand for the president and using taxpayer resources to accomplish it, that's a problem. now, our focus is on the president's conduct and those
who were helping, assisting, and enabling the president in his office abuse of his office in violation of the public trust but if there are members of congress engaged in light conduct, that's a serious problem as well. >> the phone records, again, that were revealed today also show an apparently obscured dash one phone number that giuliani called. the "new york times" is now reporting that you're investigating if that number is the president himself. can you confirm that? >> well, we can't confirm yet who that dash 1 number belongs to, but certainly there was indications in the trial of roger stone that when he was communicating with the president, it would show up in phone records as a dash 1 number. but here you have rudy giuliani in communication with the office of management and budget, in communication with the white house, and you also have presidential conduct in the form of tweets and other actions around the timing of different communications, and so we still have a lot of work to do in
terms of identifying precisely who giuliani was talking with and about what at what times of this chronology, but even in the absence of that, the evidence is overwhelming that the president was using giuliani to coerce ukraine into these investigations. that's documented in text messages, witness testimony, but nonetheless, we continue to chase down other leads and these phone records provide other leads. >> so you are still investigating that particular phone call. you said you couldn't confirm that it was the president's number. i understand that, but that is -- can you confirm that you are investigating that? >> we certainly are investigating that, and look, rudy giuliani had only one client in the administration, and that was donald trump, so who is he talking to in the course of this smear campaign against yovanovitch? who is he talking to in the pursuit of these political investigations in ukraine?
there are certain circumstantial evidence as to who those numbers might belong to, obviously mick mulvaney deeply involved in this scheme, but also the president of the united states. >> vice president pence also comes up in the report, and i just want to read this for our viewers. it says ambassador sondland raised the issue of the hold on security assistance. he told vice president pence that he was concerned that the security assistance had become tied to the issue of investigations and that everything is being held up until these statements get made. vice president pence nodded in response, apparently expressing neither surprise nor dismay at the linkage between the two, end quote. now, vice president pence through his spokesman had said that the vice president, quote, never had a conversation with gordon sondland about investigating the bidens, burisma or the conditional release of financial aid to ukraine based upon potential investigations. i don't know if they were parsing words by saying the vice president never had a conversation. in your report it's saying that the vice president just nodded. i guess you could argue that's not a conversation if he's not
actually saying something, but is your committee's report alleging that the vice president is not telling the truth there? or do you think they're just being cute. >> we are reporting what ambassador sondland testified to, and this is an issue that we are also working on further evidence of, but this was the direct testimony of ambassador sondland that he raised this issue with the vice president, that everyone was in the loop and that includes the vice president. he raises this issue immediately before the vice president is going to talk to zelensky, sondland knows this issue is going to come up. it's already in the press about how the military aid is being held up. this is a primary concern of president zelensky, and of course vice president pence is already aware of this because it was in his briefing book, that july 25th call. he already knows about the president wanting these investigations, presuming he reads his own briefing books, which i think we can expect because he apparently is a diligent reader of those
briefing books. so that is the evidence that was presented but we continue to follow additional evidence along that line, which i'm not able to itemize, but obviously if the vice president is being told this by ambassador sondland and has no reaction to the information, it's clearly not coming as a surprise to him. and i do think you have to be very careful about how these administrations officials are parsing their words. after all the secretary of state pompeo parsed his words to give the misleading impression that he wasn't really aware of what was in the call between president trump and president zelensky, and we would soon find out he was actually listening in on the call. >> chairman schiff, i appreciate your time. thank you. >> thanks anderson. more to come, including the earful that president trump got from the french president in london today. we'll discuss the very public pushback the president really gets face-to-face. the 360 interview brought to
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at one point trump was asked if he worked out a deal for france to take more captured isis fighters. here's what happened next. >> i have not spoken to the president about that. would you like some nice isis fighters? i can give them to you. you can take every one you want. >> let's be serious. fighters coming from europe, the minority of the overall -- and the whole destationizatibilizat >> it appears to be a criticism. the green light president trump effectively gave turkey in october to invade northern syria. joining us is max boot. were you surprised at this? it's sort of interesting to see president trump who's, you know, usually the sort of belligerent one being kind of politely just kind of sitting there quietly. >> macron certainly stood up for himself. one of the things that jumped
out at me, just in the big picture here, compare how testy and acrimonious this meeting was between trump and macron and how testy and acrimonious he has been in meetings with trudeau or other democratic allies compared with the way he acts with dictators. he gets along well with dictators like erdogan, kim jong-un, putin, and is very testy and unpleasant when he's meeting with these fellow democrats. the difference here i think is that normally trump is the aggressor and the other party, the other democratic leader is trying to basically placate him and to smooth over their differences, and macron was not doing that. he was basically giving as good as he got, and that's a change of strategy on his part and kind of a reversion to their earlier relationship, which remember in the spring of 2017 when they first met at their first nato summit, they kind of had the handshake of death to see who could be stronger, but then everything seemed to turn much nicer and, you know, macron
invited trump to a military parade in paris. trump loved that. they seemed to have a bromance going, but i think what macron has figured out is he doesn't get anywhere by being nice to trump, and i think other leaders have figured that out as well. you can kiss up to trump, but he'll still kick you in the shins, so you might as well stand up for yourself and your country. >> notoriously averse to face-to-face confrontation. he has people fired but he doesn't want to tell them they're fired. he tweets about it or sends a letter. i'm wondering if other leaders are starting to use that to their advantage. >> i'm sure that they will. i think that this -- you know, i'm sure that people in france appreciate macron standing up to trump who's intensely unpopular in europe, and i'm sure other countries will see that and see that you're better off confronting trump face-to-face rather than trying to be nice with him in person, then waiting for him to send a nasty tweet to you as he's flying back home. >> it is weird, though, that the u.s. is now pursuing relations from a friendlier way with
russia, with north korea, you know, erdogan is welcomed with open arms at, you know, at the white house, you know, duterte in the philippines, trump seems to admire him as well, and yet our actual allies, you know, get brusqueness. >> this is the world turned upside down. i think this is part of what macron was referring to with his infamous interview where he said nato was suffering brain death, and what he was really talking about are the actions of turkey and the united states, which are so at odds with what the other members of nato think, and of course you have this bizarre spectacle today where trump said that was a very nasty comment where trump himself had said nato is obsolete. in the way he behaves with our nato allies, trump is proving macron's point about nato being on life support. >> nasty he said, max, thanks very much. we'll be right back, more news ahead.
let's check in with chris and see what he's working on for "cuomo prime time." >> my one question to the committee tonight, why didn't they ask about these call logs? who was calling where and when leads to the big question, which is why. that takes you to the center theory of this 300-page report, which is all about intent. remember, it not a court of law, it's a court of political opinion. that's what we're getting into. >> we'll see you then. thank you very. up next, giving tuesday. how can you help the top ten cnn heros as we count down to this weekend's all-star tribute.
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and all of our top ten cnn heros will be honored at the 13th annual cnn heroes tributes. i want to hand it offer to chris for "cuomo prime time." >> thank you. i am chris cuomo. welcome to "primetime." phone logs are in here. look how thick this thing is, 300 pages. they show major players making calls to people that are hard to explain away, often at key times. the most important question in any investigation will drive us tonight -- why? you have to look at all the people around the president and all the way to him contacting players and places that were key to pressuring ukraine and what does it all