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tv   Fareed Zakaria GPS  CNN  December 8, 2019 10:00am-11:00am PST

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this is gps the global public square. welcome to all of you in the united states and around the world. i'm fareed zakaria today coming to you from london. on the show today, nato. the western alliance celebrated 70 years at the summit this week. but is the sis u organization suffering from brain damage. is it obsolete as president trump said during the 2016 campaign? i'll talk to nato's secretary general. and as britain heads to the polls, brexit is now a real possibility.
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>> i sat down with the man who started it all, nigel farage. >> utter complete, total rubbage. >> also, unrest in iran. people are rising up again and the regime is reacting with deadly violence. i'll talk to the iranian journalist maziar bahari, who was arrested in the crackdown in the 2009 green revolution. >> but first, here's my take. republicans have rallied to donald trump's president with a vigor and ferocity that might have even surprised the president. it was only a few years ago that many suggested he was not only a republican, but certainly not a conservative. but now, all republicans love trump and they're mobilizing
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their millions of supporters to fight for the president. why? the answer given most often is when you look past the circus and the histrionics, the president has been a reliable and staunch conservative. and while this is undeniably true in some areas, it's mostly in the realm of social and cultural policy, appointing judges, tightening rules relating to abortion, immigration, and asylum. in what republicans used to call the core of their agenda, limited government, trump has been profoundly unconservative. take the issue that produced the tea party. america's runaway debt. in 2012, future house speaker paul ryan said -- >> in this generation, a defining responsibility of government is to steer our nation clear of a debt crisis while there is still time. >> in his first year in office, trump with the eager assistance of a republican house and senate blew up the american budget with a tax cut that ballooned the
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deficit this year to almost $1 trillion and will add nearly $2 trillion to the national debt over ten years. now, the hypocrisy of republicans of offer deficits has often been noted, but what is most striking is that this abandonment of limited government and fiscal conservatism is part of a larger remake of conservatism itself. trump has now added more than $88 billion in taxes in the form of tariffs, according to the tax foundation. despite what the president says, please remember, tariffs are taxes on foreign goods paid for by american consumers. this has had the effect of reducing gdp and denting the wages of americans, even the administration acknowledges the pain caused by its trade wars, responding to one bad policy with another. massive subsidies to favored victims. for example, farmers. the bailout of farmers just under $30 billion now, dwarfs the $12 billion that the 2009 auto bailout cost the federal
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government. more even than free trade, conservatives have believed in the idea that governments should not pick winners and losers in the economy. an idea so fundamental to republicanism that trump tweeted it out in 2015 soon after announcing his candidacy. yet the trump administration has behaved like a central planning agency, granting waivers on tariffs to favored companies while refusing them to others. salmon, cod, bibles, and fracking chemicals are among the products that have escaped being taxed for now. in true soeft style, lobbyists, lawyers, and corporate executives now line up to petition government officials for these treasured waivers, which are granted in a totally opaque process. all of this favoritism fits very well with trump's desire to engage in industrial policy, but shaped to fulfill his own personal agenda, not some national economic one. hep consistently helps companies and workers in key battleground states he hopes to win in 2020.
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when he decides that he doesn't like a company or its chief executive, like jeff bezos, he attacks them by name. on the core issue that used to define the gop, economics, the party's agenda today is state planning and crony capitalism. and this is what so-called conservatives are doubling down to defend. for more, go to and read my "washington post" column this week. and let's get started. the leaders of the western world gathered on the outskirts of london this week to celebrate the 70th anniversary of nato. and to continue a debate that has been raging recently about its future. the north atlantic treaty organization was founded in 1949 with 12 original members. the big four at the time was the soviet union. today, nato has 29 members who
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face threats as varied as russia, islamic terror, and cyber and space war. president trump has shaken the membership of the organization by waffling on its most important reason for being the collective defense of its members. article v states that an armed attack against one or more member nation should be considered an attack against them all. now president of france also believes that nato is in very bad shape. so i sat down with the head of nato, secretary general en stoltenberg at the summit this week. mr. secretary general, pleasure to have you on. >> thank you very much for having me. >> so i've heard some of your defenses about many of the things that have been said this summit. you know, president trump, as a candidate, said nato was obsolete. now the french president says that nato is brain-dead. and you point out there have been disagreements in the past. but this time, in the past, it was over policies or, you know,
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suez or the iraq war. this is almost a disagreement about the existential nature of nato itself. should it exist. is it functioning? >> well, the clear message from this meeting, the leader's meeting this week has been that all allies, also those who have expressed some critical concerns, they are committed to nato and to the idea of a one for all, all for one, because we are safer when we stand together. and they're not only committed in words, but the reality is that north america and europe, do more together now than they have for many, many years. for the first time in our history, we have troops in the ae eastern part of the alliance. we are more organized command structure. and for the first time in our history, we're investing, for instance, the consequences of for nato, for the rise of china. so nato is adapting. nato is changing. that's what we've done for decades and that's what we
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continue to do. >> let me ask you about the points macron made. one was that if you listen to president trump, he is saying, i do not take responsibility for european -- the security. i do not think the threats to europe are threats to the united states. when he talks about terrorism in europe, those are your problems. in a sense, he's saying that the united states under trump is detaching itself from european concerns and president trump this week said we benefit the least from nato, of all countries. do you worry that without the anchor of the u.s., nato will not be what it used to be? >> i am confident that the u.s. will remain committed to nato for several reasons. first of all, that is something the president has expressed, meeting the 28 other nato leaders in london this week. second, the u.s. congress this spring, and it was very strong
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bipartisan support to nato in the congress. thirdly, if you look, the united states actually record high support for nato. and on top of that, the united states is actually now not decreasing, but increasing its military presence in europe and the u.s. is leading one of the battle groups in the eastern part of the alliance. so the fact that there are more u.s. soldiers in europe, i can hardly think about a stronger commitment to european security than that. >> so president trump was asked about nato's purpose and he said, well, you know, it used to be that we were allied against a foe, a so-called foe, he said, who may not be a foe anymore. do you think russia is no longer a foe of nato? >> we don't list foes. we don't define russia as an enemy. what we see is a more assertive russia, which has used military force against neighbor ukraine. we see a more unpredictable
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security landscape with the rise of terrorism of isis. and we see cyber threats. we see global balance of power shifting with the rise of china. and in uncertain times, we need strong international institutions like nato. >> but is russia a foe? or a friend? >> we don't define -- we don't divide the world into either foes or friends. >> well, it used to be said, you know the famous line, that the purpose of nato is to keep the russians out, the americans in, and the germans down. what's left? just to keep the americans in, then? >> to be honest, that doesn't apply today. first of all, nato is to keep all of us in. it's good for u.s., it's good for canada, it's good for europe that we stand together. russia, well, we strive for a better relationship. russia is not the same as the soviet union was, during the cold war.
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germany is now playing a more and more important role in nato. they haven't reached 2% of defense spending, but have increased significantly. so now germany is the second largest defend spender in europe just after the united kingdom. so we welcome the germans playing a more and more important role in nato. >> mr. secretary general, pleasure to have you on. >> thank you so much. next on gps, the other big buzz in britain this week has been anticipation of the nation's elections this coming thursday. will boris johnson win and remain prime minister? will he be able to pull britain out of the eu three and a half years after voters chose to leave it? i'll talk to a man who was one of the few original advocates who in many ways gave birth to brexit, the always outspoken and controversial nigel farage. the new $3 little john from jimmy john's
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brexit. and i would say that outcome might have been impossible without my next guest, nigel farage, aka, mr. brexit. farage has been one of the earliest, loudest, and longest proponents of britain's withdrawal from the europe union. he is the head of its upstart, brexit party. nigel farage, pleasure to have you on. >> thank you. >> so this has been a tough week for you in a sense that the party that you lead has four members of the europe parliament who have quit the matter and urged people who were thinking of voting for the brexit party to vote conservative. the theory being boris johnson is the guy who's going to deliver brexit. isn't it fair to say that this is now the role you have been cast in in history, that is, you were one of the earliest, loudest proponents of brexit, but your very success is that the conservative party has adopted your agenda. >> to some extent, yes,
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absolutely. in february of this year, brexit was stuck in the weeds. we had half a million people marching through the streets of london. a second referendum was the cry. we had, i think, the worst prime minister in theresa may since lord north lost north america, as she was pretty hopeless. >> we thought he was pretty good. >> well, i know. and johnny well done you. but this is the battle for our independence, you see, from the european union. and i just, having spent 25 years building a fringe movement called ukip to a level where it posed an existential threat to the conservatives. they gave us a referendum, we won the referendum. i was happy in 2016 to take a backseat, but here's the thing. the brexit that boris has been offering doesn't actually take us out fully of europe law, of the european institutions, and potentially makes doing a trade deal with america very
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difficult. so, yes, i accept the point i've shifted the agenda. we are now going to get brexit. it's going to happen. we're going to leave at the end of january. i've got no doubt about that. the debate now isn't whether we get brexit, whether it's brexit in name only or something meaningful. >> when you look back, what do you think turned your movement for brexit from a fringe to something broader. i look at it and it seems as though immigration is the central issue that seems to make it more mainstream. >> i think all the while eu membership, and let's remember, particularly for americans watching this, this is not nafta. this is -- you know, this is not a free trade club with rules. this is actually the growth of a new state based in brussels, where the guys with the real power are the unelected european commissioners. and sector by sector, we saw eu
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rule affecting different industries. but you're right. the real mass effect was in 2004, when eight, then ten former communist countries joined the european union with complete rights of free movement. now, if you say to people in poor countries, you can move to a rich country, what do you think's going to happen? there are clearly going to be massive transfers of people. for 60 years after world war ii, net migration to our country ran at roughly $20,000 to $30,000 a year. it worked and we had integration assimilation within our society. we open the doors to former communist countries and that number bake ten times that number. we have had an 8 million increase in our population since 1997 and 80% of that is directly as a result of migration policies. and what ordinary decent -- not -- and by the way, these
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aren't knuckle-dragging, racist, horrendous -- normal people who saw their quality of life diminishing, their access to public services diminishing, so, yes, opening up doors made a lot more people realize that being involved with europe is not what mom and dad voted for. my mom and dad voted to be friends with our neighbors. to do more business with them. not to be run from brussels and have open borders. >> let me ask you about britain's role. what i notice is that brexit seems to be part of a larger british kind of withdrawal from the world. and this has become -- >> utter -- utter rubbish. >> it feels like -- you're not interested in the world that much? >> utter, complete, total rubbish. now, look -- >> look at the size of your army, look at the size of your navy. everything is being hollowed out. foreign services is being -- i mean -- >> oh -- >> every indication --
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>> i am appalled by that. >> open a british newspaper. there's almost no foreign news anymore. >> the existing establishment have virtually, since the soviets crisis of 1956, with a brief ten-year aberration called mrs. thatcher. >> mrs. thatcher, to be fair. >> but no, our principle has been managed decline. managed decline. and that is the defeatism of the british establishment. the thought that we're not good enough to run ourselves number. i want to tell you this, as a brexitier. and i'm the father of brexit in many ways. i view brexit far from being insular, far from pulling our homes in from the world. i view brexit as the opportunity to reach out to the world. brexit is about us reasserting our place in the world. do you know, as members of the european union, we don't even have a seat on the world trade organization. you know, we've become nothing. we're becoming a province of a
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united states of europe. i think we're better than that. >> next on "gps," i will ask nigel farage, who greatly admires donald trump, why the president is just so unpopular in britain. t-mobile is lighting up 5g nationwide. while some 5g signals go only blocks, t-mobile 5g goes miles... beyond the big cities to the small towns... to the people. now, millions of americans can have access to 5g on t-mobile. and this is just the beginning. t-mobile, the first and only nationwide 5g network.
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back now with more of my interview with nigel farage. >> you know president trump pretty well. >> i do, yeah. >> do you think that there are real similarities between the kind of what is called populism that you have, you know, sparked, and what's going on in america? i ask this, because on the central issue of immigration, it's quite different. the united states actually has at this point, for example, net migration from mexico is essentially zero. there is no europe union type freedom of movement. we don't have vast numbers of people coming in. what's going on -- when you look
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at it, what's going on in america? >> there are similarities. between the brexit movement and the trump movement and big differences, too. the similarity is the belief that the nation state is the essential building block. there is nothing wrong or shameful about flying the flag and being patriotic and that you are naturally suspicious of organizations like the european union, with its supernatural structures or even the united nations, if it goes in the wrong direction. the basic belief that immigration should be managed sensibly to the benefit of a country, again, those are strong similarities. the idea that you should actually pull your own people first, just as we all put our own families first and not our next-door neighbors, those are strong similarities. >> so explain to me why is donald trump so unpopular in britain? i mean, he is -- he's toxic, right? obama's approval rating in
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britain was 70-odd percent. he's at 18%. i mean, it would literally be wall-to-wall anti-trump, anti-trump media. anti-trump pc storm. nobody -- i mean, literally nobody with the exception of myself prepared -- and i would say, look, this guy is a new yorker. he's from queens. he's a bit out there. he's a bit what we would call in this country a rough diamond. you know, rough around the edges. >> i think many would not call him a diamond at all. >> well, it's just -- it's an english expression, so excuse me for using it. from our perspective, the point i want to keep making to british people is that when it comes to defense, our most important partner in the world is the usa. when it comes to intelligence sharing, dealing with potential global jihadi threats or whatever else it may be, our most important partner in the world is the usa. when it comes to money and investment, we are the biggest
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investor, foreign investor in america and america is the biggest investor here. just think if we broke down some of the other trade barriers, how much closer that relationship could be. and culturally, do our teenagers -- do my kids look to europe for their culture? no, they look to america. so we are, you know, we are very, very close. >> let me ask you something. trump did not interfere in the british elections this last week. when many people thought he can't stop himself from opining on issues. you tried to get him to on your radio program and he didn't. were you surprised by the kind of discipline? >> do you know something? if he wants to be disciplined, he can. but generally -- he doesn't generally think that's very important. you know, he's, in a way, in a way, he's been a gift, of course, to cnn. he's been a gift to "the new york times" and many of his opponents.
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but there is a certain openness about trump, which as whether you like him as a person or not is rather endearing. >> if you were asked about what trudeau said -- >> yeah, he's pretty two-faced, isn't he? we're so used to these robots bho leave the best universities in north america, in the united kingdom, who go into political research, become congressmen or members of parliament, you know, we're so used to the career politician, not wanting to make any mistakes. never really telling the world what they actually think, but more what they think the world wants to hear. i think it's good to have people who have got passion. >> and do you think that's part of his appeal? >> absolutely. i think plain speaking, you've got middle america, the flyover states, we've got middle england. and these are people who couldn't really give a damned about what our westminster village or the washington swamp
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thinks important. they know what they think -- and they like people, even if they disagree with their views, they like a certain frankness, a certain honesty. >> well, that's what we get from you, nigel farage, a pleasure to have you on. >> thank you. next on "gps," what to make of the nato summit, the state of transatlantic relations and the upcoming british elections. i have a terrific panel to talk about it all. it's time to make mopping history. introducing the new braava jet m6 robot mop. with an adjustable precision jet spray and advanced pad system braava jet breaks up messes and gets deep in corners.
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there's a lot to talk about in britain and the world with today's great panel.
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alastair campbell was prime minister tony blair's spokesman and director of strategy, zanny mintons beddoes is the editor of the economist, the current cover story is "britain's nightmare before christmas," referring to the elections. zanny, what's the big picture here in terms of, what are we seeing in terms of the tory par party, the labor party. if you pull back, what's the story? >> i think the big story is that both of britain's two major parties have moved more towards the extreme. the torys have moved very clearly towards a harder brexit, get brexit done is boris johnson's slogan. the labor party has moved to a radical manifesto. the reason we gave the cover the title we did, the they have no home in the major parties. it's the choice between two incredibly options, hard brexit and radical socialism. >> and the torys seem to have
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been remade in the image of brexit, suspicious of europe, in much the same way that the republicans have been remade into the party of trump. >> i think there are real parallels there, actually. the torys who under david cameron for much of the last 15, 20 years had modernized themselves, as they put it, into being a kind of outward looking liberal internationalist party are shifting, thanks to brexit, to becoming a much more nationalist populist party. and their electoral strategy is to win the election and it looks likely that they will with a majority, by grabbing seats from labor, traditionally working class seats in the north of england. >> and labor. why has labor moved so far left? >> well, because jeremy corbyn, that's what he believes. and it's true that i think it's not just the parallels in terms of what might britain -- might become a britain. i think we've seen parallels president nature of the campaign as well. a bit like donald trump. boris johnson doesn't really care whether what he says is true or not. he cares about the impact that he makes.
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get brexit done just another lie. they're not going to get brexit done very quickly as all, because we're now into the next stage of a very difficult process. >> this is, i think unlike any election i can think of in the recent past in the uk, where there is kind of outright lying on both sides and people are completely unembarrassed about it. >> and that sense of the system is corrupt, so getting a disrupter is fine, they all lie, so what difference does it make if he lies more, right? >> i'm afraid that he has done that, and he has played on that. and actually, my experience in politics is that most politicians do most of the time try to tell the truth. but when you have something like trump, who becomes president and he's elected knowing that he's a liar, knowing that he's a racist, knowing that he's a misogynist, and i'm fearing we're doing the same thing here. that's really, really dangerous for democracy. i think it's why the russians are very, very happy with the way it's going. and i think for the public, yes, i can see why lots and lots of people in some of these more working class areas of the uk, they're thinking, you know, well they've all let us down, but
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actually, the guy that they looked like they might be rewarding for that, he's going to be the one who's really going to make their lives difficult, because a hard brexit is going to hit those places hardest of al. >> what did we learn about johnson and trump this week? he seemed, you know, very, very reluctant to embrace donald trump. is donald trump that toxic? >> yes, he is toxic. and that was frankly a sensible thing to do, to keep as far away from donald trump as he possibly could a week before an election in a country where donald trump is not at all possible. >> hold on a minute, though. on brexit, his big strategy is we can get rid of europe and do this great trade deal with the americans. he will pay a price. >> had you been advising boris johnson, you would have said, keep away and get nowhere near him. >> i would haven't said, be rude to him. >> the real problem with the u.s. trade deal, which is clearly something that many in fact tory party are hoping for, we're going to get brexit done,
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leave very fast. alastair's right, that's not going to be at all easy. but their great hope is a trade deal with the u.s. i can't see that happening and i can't see it happening for two reasons. firstly, it is very clear that two priorities for the americans are one, greater access for u.s. pharmaceutical products or two, greater access for u.s. agricultural products. and for good or ill, in this country, there is an allergy to any sense of any access to the nhs, and an absolute allergy to having american chlorinated chicken. people really don't want it. so that makes the politics of giving away on either of those really, really difficult. so from the uk side, i can't see how a deal gets done. and on the u.s. side, as you know, the notion that you're going to have congress approve a trade deal rapidly in the u.s. political environment. and frankly, whoever wins the u.s. election next year, i can't see this being very high. so i just don't see that happening. and that's a pillar of the sort of, if there was a logic to the brexit process, it is to, you know, have a great possibility for trade deals for the uk. the biggest one out there, i don't think, is going to happen.
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>> and which part of -- you know, which part of america first are we not listening to here? you know? i think we're going to be weakened with the europeans, weakened with the americans, and johnson, yes, he might win with his great brexit done slogan, but he'll find like a lot of people do, once they get into the truth, it gets hard. >> sounds like it's nightmare before christmas and nightmare after christmas. >> there's one silver lining. our nightmare process before elections doesn't take as long as the one in the u.s. at least we get some resolution, for good or ill. >> and it doesn't cost as much. i know the torys raised ten times as much as labor and it was like 3 million pounds. >> that's a congressional seat on the cheap here. next on "gps," some say iran is seeing its greatest unrest since the 1979 revolution that toppled the shah a. is this regime ready to topple?
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observers say that the islamic republic of iran is in the midst of the biggest protests since its foundfoundin. a massive fuel hike has brought iranians in some hundred cities into the streets and protests and the regime crackdown has been swift and violent. indeed, a u.s. official said as many as a thousand may have died. to put that into perspective,
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70,000 people were killed in iran's 2009 green revolution. let me bring in mazir bahari, an iranian canadian, a former colleague of mine at "newsweek." he was imprisoned for 119 days for his reporting during those 2009 protests. mazir, what are you hearing? you run a very important source of iranian news, iran wire. what are you hearing about what's going on right now? >> well, the country is in a security situation right now. basically a state of siege. we are receiving videos of police shooting at people. we've talked to doctors -- i've talked personally to doctors who have been telling me that they saw people were getting shot in the heart and in the head, even though their training says that you have to shoot people in the leg in order to disperse demonstrations. so the country is still in shock. they don't know what -- what happened during those two or three days after the protest,
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during the protest. and people -- many people in iran want regime change now. what they want to change the regime to, that is a big question. and there is no cohesive alternative to this regime. there are some people who support the son of the former that of of iran. there are some people who support different groups. even the leader of the green movement in iran, who is under house arrest, he has basically said that the islamic republic is dead. and that comanekhomeini is the now. so they are trying to crush people's protests. and on the other hand, people are facing a new reality. they knew that the regime was
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brutal. they knew that the regime was violent, but in the last two weeks, they have seen it with their own eyes. and many people in iran, it's difficult to say how many, what's the percentage, but many people in iran, they want a regime change. >> but as you say, it isn't clear what that would mean, because there isn't a clear opposition. in 1979, they said, death to the shah, long live kma kma kmanny. >> we don't know whether they're a minority, because it's very difficult to report in iran. it's difficult for the reporters to report. all foreign media, they have been banned. they've shut down the berninter.
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it's very difficult to communicate with people. people are still in shock. >> if you shut down the internet, in today's world, you can't do banking or -- >> right. they are using the chinese technology in order to shut down the internet. and in iranians are using the technology developed by chinese opposition in order to circumvent those. >> so both sides are using -- >> both sides are using -- and i think iranians -- they see themselves as part of this global movement, from chile to lebanon, to iraq, to hong kong. >> how does american pressure play into this? does the u.s. -- in the trump administration has put a lot of pressure, a lot of sanctions on the regime. >> when the american government sanctioned the revolutionary guards, that meant that many
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financial institutions that are owned by the revolutionary guards, they were subjected to sanctions, because right now, revolutionary guards is not just military force. it is the biggest industrial institution in iran. it has many universities, many hospitals. so all of those institutions within the revolutionary guards were subjected to sanctions. and as a result, iranian people are suffering. >> the u.s. people say they're going to deploy again, ratcheting up the pressure. do you think there is a likelihood that something explosive could happen in the next few months? >> i hope not, but in this very volatile, explosive situation, something could happen that could be counterproductive for the u.s. and for iran. a military confrontation with the u.s. frightens many iranians
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who still are scarred from years of war with iraq. they even support certain sanctions against certain human rights violators and iran's nuclear program. but a war with the u.s., that will result in many deaths and much destruction. it frightens iranian people. >> maziari, a pleasure to have you on. we will tell you what happens next and we will be back. feedback that helps you drive safer. and that can lower your cost now that you know the truth... are you in good hands? today's senior living communities have never been better, with amazing amenities like movie theaters, exercise rooms
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you heard my interview earlier with nato secretary general stoltenburg here in london where they were celebrating their 75th birthday. they have had one armed attack on an ally once in all that time after 9/11. but that wasn't the first time a
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member state was attacked. it brings me to my question. why didn't argentina's 1982 invasion of the british-controlled falkland islands trig gr natur -- trigge nato's article 5? britain declined help, the united states vetoed, south hemisphere attacks don't couth, or everyone forgot about it. my book of the week is called prisoners of geography. it explains russia, ukraine, kashmir, tibet, iraq all through the rich lands of the map. the answer to my question this week is c. while nato considers any armed attack to be an attack against all members, article 5 only says
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attacks outside the tropic of cancer count. so when they had more penguins than people way down beside antarctica, britain fought alone. but just because they didn't interfere in 1982 doesn't mean it wouldn't today. invoking article 5 is a political decision in the hands of nato's ruling body, meaning even unconventional threats to the alliance's overall security, like the attacks of september 11, 2001, can mobilize the combined land of 25 nations. that can only happen if the organization survives the remainder of the trump presidency. thank you for being part of my programming this week. i'll see you next week. whether you were borne for more dance-offs... more travels...
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finish quantum's three-chamber detergent works with bosch's precisionwash technology to clean, degrease and shine every dish, every load. for a sparkling clean, from bosch to finish. hello, everyone, and thank you so much for joining me this sunday. i'm fredricka whitfield. we begin with breaking news in several major developments today of the deadly shooting at the naval air base in pensacola, florida. authorities have not gone so far as to call the incident terrorism, but robert o'brien had this to say this morning. >> it appears this was someone who had been radicalized, whether it was here or -- it's unclear i