tv Cuomo Prime Time CNN September 15, 2020 10:00pm-11:00pm PDT
job. what made you do that? >> a conclusion based on overwhelming evidence. i -- i looked -- i was typing along and -- the epilog, and out it came. and i realized and consulted people that that was actually my obligation. i got as close as an outsider might get to the inner trump and what -- how the white house works and functions. and i -- can i tell a quick -- do i have a moment to tell a story about katherine graham who was the owner and the publisher of "the washington post." >> i would love to hear. we've got, like, two minutes. >> okay. i'm going to do it quick. >> okay. >> after nixon resigned, so this is 197, she wrote carl bernstein
and myself a letter on a yellow legal pad. she had more stationary than any 500 people in washington, but she -- dear bob and carl, you wrote some of the stories and nixon is gone. do not start thinking -- do not think too highly of yourselves. i want to give you some advice. beware the demon pompocity. >> that's good advice. >> that's really important advice for us in our business and all other businesses. so i pondered that. i consulted with elsa, john carp, the publisher and the top person at simon & schuster with my assistants and i said, is this pompous or is this true? and the answer was from
everyone, it's true. you can't -- the whole business of trump is about running away from the truth. you cannot run away from the truth here because you've seen it. >> i was stunned by the quote that kushner gave to you, saying that if you want to understand the president, you should look at the chesire cat. if you don't know where you're going, any path will get you there. the fact that one of the president's closest advisers intimating he doesn't know where he's going and, you know, willing to take any path to get there is scary. >> it's only one of the scary truths in -- in this book. >> yeah. >> but i, you know, it's -- it was very -- and it has been very unsettling to me to travel this
road and stare down what i heard and saw and verified and went back. and my wife elsa, who edited this book six times, and is my counselor and would come to me and say, well, this is a good section, but you're not saying what you mean. >> mm-hmm. >> which, of course, is the -- the dreaded verdict to any reader. >> yeah. >> but she was right and she helped me. and so we're struggling, the two of us, with this not just peering into the white house and trump and so forth -- >> yeah. >> peering into perk. >> and i think a lot of people across the country are wrestling with that as well, peering into the country and themselves. and this president. bob woodward, thank you very much. the news continues. want to hand it over to chris
for "cuomo prime time." so, anderson, to hear bob woodward go through the agonising of whether or not he should have written what he did at the end of the book, is a little bit of a metaphor for just what a trying time this is. for journalists and everybody processing our politics and, frankly, our culture. all that he told you tonight, i listened to every moment. what shocks you most about this dynamic of this book and what was said and what was heard? >> i'm not sure that, you know, to -- to me, the -- just it confirms a lot of stuff that we have been covering for a great deal of time in a very -- to hear the president's own voice sort of confirming all this stuff that we have been -- been covering. you know, the -- the downplaying of the virus and then tonight to have him, you know, on a town hall at abc i think it was saying, oh, no, i, you know, i never downplayed the virus. if anything, i up-played it.
i mean, these are things we've all reported on and seen in real time, but, you know, to have the kind of level of detail that bob has in the book from all these different people, but from the president himself, you know, i think it's -- it's -- that, to me, is what was most compelling. >> compelling is a good word. i wonder how compelling woodward's book is. two questions. one is, can anybody be compelled? if you have people have open minds, is what they heard come out of the president's own mouth going to be suggestive of something different than they thought going into it? >> i don't know the answer to that. i mean, i, you know, i think, you know, the lines seem pretty clearly drawn for a lot of people in this country, so i'm not sure how many people there are on a fence to be swayed one way or another, but i think it's, you know, it's fascinating to have the information out there and, you know, look we're
in this business. we believe in getting as much -- as many facts out there. and, you know, on all sides of an issue and letting viewers make up their own minds about, you know, what they want to do with those facts. >> yeah, you know, he mentioned carl bernstein, obviously, his famous reporting partner. we were going through our own reporting exercise here once. i was saying to him, you know, we have all the facts, carl, but i don't know whether or not this is going to be enough for people when they're hearing this. he said, it's not the job. you can tell people what's true, you cannot make them believe what is true. people will believe what they want to believe, and that's exactly what this president is banking on. i got to tell you, anderson, this was helpful tonight. you did your job. in beautiful fashion for our audience. and i appreciate it. it was helpful to me. thank you, brother. >> sorry i ran over a minute into your show. >> please. you should have taken the whole show. what matters more than this? i can't get enough of you. get home to wyatt.
i'm chris cuomo. welcome to "prime time." we now have two truths to deal with. the first, we just heard anderson with bob woodward. he made it clear the president is aware and has always been aware of what is going on with this pandemic. the dangers. how quickly it could spread. and he is only really concerned with his own political fate. not yours. he wants credit for a situation that was made worse by his inaction. he up-played it. he just said. he didn't downplay it. it matters that he screwed up even the language. there is no up-playing. there is playing it up. also what? he can't even make up an answer that makes sense. that's why i point out the distinction. stopping travel to china, still allowed over 40,000 people into this country from china. and the point is, the virus had already moved to europe by then. and was coming here by then. okay?
by the time he made the move. now, look, if you need to hear this, hear it. doing the restriction with china, doing the restriction with europe, by most metrics and most people involved made sense. they were good moves. some on the left didn't like it. saw it as xenophobia. now, i don't believe that's fair criticism of biden. i don't think he was speaking specifically of the moves when you look at the record, but he'll have to explain for himself. so they were good moves but they were not enough and they did not mean he didn't have to do what was needed here, specifically with testing. it's the only way we know what's happening with the virus. it did not make it okay that china and europe move for him to tell people forget the masks. go out, eat, live your life, reject your governors. all their pleas to stay home for a while, forget it. he knew better. his inaction and his action
helped make cases increase. his job is to protect us. he's protecting himself. how? how does that protect him? because he didn't want the pandemic to be a reality that would push down the economy. that's why he said to bob woodward, you really think the pandemic supercedes the economy? that's your answer. he will play down a pandemic because he wants to keep what is good for him in your mind. even though it had already been brought down by it. they're connected. well, a little bit. no, more than a little bit. yeah, you're right. that's trump. yeah, you're right. he knows it's right. he wants 200,000 dead to be seen as a success filipino my simple suggestion is the same every time he says that. tell the victims' families that 200,000 dead is a success. here's our second hard truth. we got to see the real picture
of what's happening and where this virus is and where it isn't. you know, i mean, we all talk about the virus all the time. you probably have a pretty decent sense of how many cases there are. maybe even a good ballpark on deaths. i just told you it's about 200,000. but you don't really know where it is and where it is isn't and who it is and where and why. this matters. we don't deal with the reality. you want the reality? here it is. look, look at the map. it's not all red anymore. what does that mean? it means that only a handful of states are getting worse. good. reality is good. no. no, it's not good. and here's why. and this is what isn't told to you enough. it's not burning around because it has mostly levelled out. but think about what that means. plateauing at a certain case flow. if water is still coming into a boat but it is slowing down at the rate it's coming in, are you
not sinking anymore? we're still sinking. you'll notice on this map -- keep it up, please. only a few states are actually coming down. i mean, that's what has to happen. cases have to come down for us to be able to live the way we want to. how much? i'll get to that in a second. the idea that almost 35,000 people testing positive since yesterday -- like, when you hear that, huh, that's pretty good news. it's less than it was. i'm telling you, that's more about us getting tired of the reality than the reality getting better. in late july we were up around 60,000 a day. so is that better? yeah, but we're still sinking. would we ever say that about death? 772 american deaths a day. well, that's better. better than it was. tell the families.
they died of a virus that you can control by staying home and with a mask? all these other countries that have none of our resources, none of our supposed national resolve, our strength, our character, they did it better? the reality is we've just hit another plateau. we're not actually bringing cases down. that's the reality. and why? trump. no. this not going to be settled by left and right, it's going to be about what's reasonable. the real -- look, here's the hard truth. the reason we've plateaued is you. and me. depending on where we live. depending on what we've been asked. too many of us are not doing what we were asked as long as we were asked to to it. we're still around, look, 60% of those asked to mask up
complying. so if you're only at 60%, what do you think's going to happen? you're only going to get, at best, 60% of what you wanted, right? now, it's not apples to apples like that. it's more complicated. in fact, you'd have to be up at 100% to really help yourself in any real way for cases to go down. and none of these moves were ever meant to be permanent. nobody would stand for that. if communities stepped up. cases came down. they got to start doing things again. in the places where restrictions have lingered it's because the percentage of positive cases has stayed up. that's what i want you to think about. i used to tell you hospitalizations, hospitalizations. yes, obviously. you're in the hospital, i mean, you're sick. how sick do you have to be to get to the hospital? i was pretty sick. i never even had to go to the hospital, thank god. the percentage of positive cases, that's what you have to pay attention to because that's the main metric that's going to control our future. so i said earlier, but how low does it have to be? we're never going to get to zero, right? what makes sense? that's the right question.
and we don't really know. the w.h.o. sets the threshold at 5%. can you do that slower? can that move slower or do it again? all right. move it at warp speed. these are the rates for positive test percentages. we're at 8%. all those other countries were much lower. right? percentage of the tests that you do that are positive. so what will they do? they play with the testing. that's why they've always messed with the testing. that's why i've always been all over the testing because that's the way to keep the truth from you. that's the way to control the reality. on a state by state basis, only half of our country is below the mark we need to meet. four states are triple that benchmark. i'm telling you they are lying to you about the reality in this country and they're doing it for political advantage. the whole way we talk about where this disease is needs to change.
we used to do it in an easy and obvious way. regions, right? because they were on fire one by one. the northwest, california, oregon, washington. then it flew to the northeast. new york, new jersey. it was easy. then the summer, the midwest, oh, now it's hitting the south. and that makes you think that once it bounces around everywhere, good. no. no. now that the virus has done what it does, which is spread, right? anywhere, any way. it's less about regions. it's more about specific communities or events that are going to exacerbate a situation and cause problems for a community. like what? like sturgis. i mean, come on. look, i love it. i love the cultural event of it. i love everything about it. not everything, but i love most things about it. but what do you think's going to happen when you have something like this? and, look, look how they celebrate trump at a place like that. he is the mascot for disobeying what you're told to do about this virus. large indoor campaign rally.
i mean, masks, socially distance, wash your hands, don't do anything you don't need to. trump. college campuses. kids will be kids. if you put them therefo, they'r going to do what they do. that's why we call them minors. but the reality is from ohio state to south carolina, iowa, texas tech, university of wisconsin, we're talking about 60,000 new cases since august, and that's only looking at about a quarter of all colleges and who knows how honest they're going to be. we rely on, but, look, institutions protect themselves. power protects itself. so let's look at just kids, okay? because this is another one that i think we're getting played on and it wound up with a school situation that i personally find unacceptable. okay? kids, what's the good news?
they do not die like the rest of us from this virus. thankfully. we don't know why but it's not happening. we know of 377 deaths for those 24 and younger. look, my heart goes out in ways i can't even tell you for any family who has had a kid suffer with this, let alone pass from it. i am so sorry. i am in no way trying to minimize your pain. one is absolutely too many. any parent who sees a child go is something that i don't even know how you survive. but we take way too much solace in that number. death is not the measure of the problem. a lot of kids are getting sick. kids can be asymptomatic and still transfer. be contiguous to other people who are in danger. i was never near death. thank god. nor my wife. for real, thank god. or my son. but i tell you what, he was really sick on and off for a long time. weird days of sleeping. we thought, all right, it's just
because he's a teen. doctors couldn't give us any answers. no medicine. there's nothing to do for him. he didn't feel right. he was an odd color. with time he's gotten better. so how do you look at these things? that's not -- that's not the way you want to see your kid. you saw that parent last night with his little son eli. the genius. that kid has 100 fever for weeks? so now where do we get? because we're all afraid for our kids, right? you and i would go back to work -- i came back to work. i have been sick. i have the antibodies. i don't believe the antibodies mean i can't get sick again. i italy people that all the time. i don't believe it. the science is not completely there. it's suggestive but not dispositive. i come and do the job. why? the job matters. the job matters. i'm an adult. i'll make my own decisions. my kids, you got me with my kids. i'm not letting my kids do anything that i think is risky. so now we got messed up with school. because i can't in good
conscience have my kids go to school when i know they don't know what the hell they're doing. they don't have enough cases to test. they can't really monitor. they can't really control and i don't trust them to be honest. we can't trust anybody to be honest in this situation, it seems. they keep lying to us. so because we didn't jump on testing, we didn't do what we needed to do, now our kids are screwed. some of the kids are back in school but not enough. a single case of covid in a school is going to set this ripple effect of disruption. why? because they don't really know how to measure it in real time. k-12, i can't even give you accurate numbers about everything -- about what's going on. how? with our kids. it's all about the kids. kids are our future. we care about them the most. we do everything we can. no, we didn't. here's one thing everybody agrees with. >> i'd like to see the schools open. they have to open. yeah, i think schools have to open. >> every time our president said this i said the same thing, one
word, "how?" show them how. give them the help with the testing. you have the cdc. you have the defense production act emergency power. you have the pocket. you have the power. no, school's a local thing. this is an emergency. but they don't know how to track how many schools are having to close because of kids or teachers testing positive. we don't even know how to measure the failure. how did we -- how did we get to here? this isn't two weeks. all of these big shots, all this money, all this talking, all this media, we can't even get our kids back in school. i don't even know as a matter of science that the kids shouldn't all be back in school. i could show you data and research from people around the world who say, look, you know what? based on this study and this and this, the kids are in there.
they'll get sick but it's not that bad. be careful about who's at home. but you can figure it out. it's not going to be that much worse. i don't know that i believe that. but they're not giving us anything better here and you know it. there's no way our kids can get back in school and we can get back to anything close to normal if we can't tell who has this damn thing in any kind of small window of time. even when you account for population differences and the real-time infection rates in each state. as a nation, we're only doing a little over 60% of the number of tests that we need. and we both know you're never going to be able to test everybody all the time. you got to test smart, but we're not doing that either. only 11 states meet the target for how many tests they need to be doing, 11. most of them are in the northeast. you got michigan, new mexico, and alaska in there. that's the other states. just so happens to line up pretty neatly with the places where the harvard global health institute says it's safe to start reopening schools, okay?
now, when you compare the united states to the rest of the world, the best we can say -- and this is so embarrassing -- we're not the worst. yeah, we got the most cases. yeah, we got the most deaths. but when you adjust that number for population, there are ten countries in worse shape than us. you see them there? is that who you see yourself being in company with when you talk about american excellence? america first. is that the group you want to be in? a lot are in better shape than we are. and, by the way, no disrespect to those countries. i'm talking about resources. i'm talking about capabilities. we have the best health care system capabilities in the world. not how much we charge for it. not how much you get for your buck. not access. but our mortality rate is around middle of the pack in large part because we have extraordinary ability with our first responders to keep people alive here who would die somewhere else. our positivity rate is at 14.
that's the response. we're not all-in. the next part of the equation is medicine. look, let's bring in chief dr. sanjay gupta with us. the president said something tonight, brother, that is correct. he has pushed the vaccine at a rate of acceleration we have never seen. you and i both have sources on operation warp speed. they say -- this is the all-star team. we couldn't ask for better than this. getting everything we want. they threw money at us to go into production with this and we feel pretty good about it. now, that's all a fair assessment, is it not? >> yeah, no, no question. i think the pace of medical innovation around this has been faster than anything i've seen before. >> now, he is probably wrong, according to my sources, about when the people working on the vaccine will feel good about it getting out of phase iii, especially with this little setback they just had.
i don't know that it's a little setback, but they had people who are getting sick in a way that they have to figure out why. so let's say he's wrong about when it comes out because he wants to time it to the election. of course he does. he wants everything about this to be geared to his advantage. a vaccine doesn't stop this virus for us. even if we got the vaccine today, sanjay. give me a hypothetical. we all have access to the vaccine today. all of us. have access. what's the timeline look like? >> well, first of all, you know, that hypothetical is not -- that's not going to happen. you know, there's -- >> that's why it's called a hypothetical. >> there would be tens of millions -- i understand. but tens of millions of doses maybe by the end of the year. >> but i'm giving him the best case. >> the -- if you -- if you had a single shot that you were given today and then probably needed another shot in a month, you would probably start to develop, you know, significant immunity a few months after that. we don't know, as you pointed out earlier, how long that
immunity lasts. so it's not going to be the flip of a switch when people get this vaccine. it's, you know, for a period of time, people are still going to need to probably wear masks, physically distance. there may be some sense of being able to open up things that you wouldn't have otherwise opened up, bunt it's not the flip of a switch. and i get that it's a hypothetical but, again, i just really want to be clear, you know, the idea -- people say the vaccine's ready this fall. but i think what i've learned just talking to people over the last few weeks is that the general public really is not gonna have access to this vaccine until the middle of next year. i just think it's important to set expectations clearly on this because so many people just keep -- it's like the purple pill ad you see on television. i'll just take the purple pill. that will take care of all of my problems. this not the purple pill. this is something that we should understandably wait for to make sure it's safe and effective. even then it may take time.
there may be more than one shot. we may need to get it seasonally. 600 syringes, two shots, that's 600 million syringes. we got stymied by nasal swabs in this country. we've got to make sure all those various components actually work as well. >> now, here's the point. everything sanjay says is right. i'm giving him a hard time because i want to make this point crystal clear to you. the vaccine is not the answer. it does not end the virus. the pandemic will not just go away. this is not a movie so it is not acceptable as an answer for the president because at the end of the day, i got the biggest thing right, we got the vaccine. it's not the biggest thing. but now where i'm confused is this, doc. masks. i just told people we're at about 60% of those asked stepping up and doing it. that's a problem. we have been told by fauci several times that a national mask mandate would help. the ihme says that we flat-lined
at about that 60%. we need to be at 95%. but now fauci says i don't know that a national mask mandate would work. what's going on here? >> well, you know, i think what he's saying is that -- it's not questioning the efficacy of masks. he's basically saying that unless the will of the people is in lockstep with, you know, the authorities, it's just not going to work. i mean, how do you -- how are you going to enforce this? >> right. >> how much are you going to fine them? what are you going to do? i think that's ultimately what he was saying, you know, there was the belief going back to july, and even more recently, when you say, hey, look, you get to be a part of a movement that saves 100,000 lives. all you do is put a couple of ear loops on and you get to save lives. and i think -- i think people were surprised, including fauci, that a significant percentage of people said i ain't gonna do it. i'm still not gonna do it.
i don't want to be a part of that movement that saves lives. >> right. >> so i think his point is you got to have the will of the people and the authoritative action in lockstep here. >> sanjay, i love you. thank you for helping us understand the reality. appreciate it. >> back at you. >> all right. wanted to wait for sanjay to leave. here's why. we know why people are resistant to masks in this country. it makes no sense for people to be resistant to masks if they think it could help them and help them help other people. there's one reason and it's the president telling them it was a joke. it's a hoax. this is the left. this what they're trying to do. do you remember how it started? him saying they're putting a mask on you to control your freedom of speech. think how stupid an idea that is. and yet that's what he was pushing. and now all of a sudden we have a country like no other that is fighting masks on the basis of political principle. and you think he has nothing to do with that? he's the only one that has something to do with it.
why do you think he makes fun of joe biden's mask? look, the vaccine is not the answer. this show from now until november is not going to be your daily check of who's going to win and who isn't. a lot of that is bullshit, all right? it just it. it's prognostication based on numbers that are a snapshot of a suggestion of a moment in time. the person that's going to win this race is the one that gets more people to believe in their message to the polls. that's the answer. what i want to give you here is the reality of what we're dealing with every damn day. now, a big part of it's going to be testing. our kids are not going to get back into schools until we start to be able to read the right kinds of data. i have an expert who had to set up exactly that kind of system, who is looking at exactly what we need now and what isn't there and what the difference between the two things will mean for you and for me. . next. now is the time for a new bath from bath fitter.
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fact, too many of our kids are not in school and too many of us are deal with this suck of home school zooming which gives you a chance to be back in school. the second largest school district in america says it has a plan to fix that. what's the plan? what do you think? regular testing and tracing for
all 700,000 students and 75,000 employees and their families. that's always been the only way we were gonna get back there. if we don't know, we can't trust. if we can't trust, we're not putting our kids in that situation. we both know it. not if we can avoid it. austin beutner is the l.a. superintendent. we have mr. beutner and we have andy slavitt hear to figure out how their approach can help other schools. gentlemen, thank you. superintendent, just quickly, i am not in any way trying to be disrespectful here, but we've always known that if you couldn't test the kids on a r l regular basis, you weren't going to be able to have any degree of confidence. why didn't that message resonate up to create an urgency to help you scale testing from the top down? >> well, chris, the member has been there since march. the head of the world heath organization gave us the answer, test, test, test, as you said so eloquently, and we've put together a plan with three parts. the first is health practices.
so the cleaning, the social distancing, keeping students in small cohorts and all of the state of the art health practices at schools, and we will test for the virus and we'll be able to trace and follow up in the school community, and to do that, we put together three research universities. stanford, john hopkins and ucla. three health partners, anthem, health net, cedar-sinai world-class hospital. tech giant microsoft, and a partridge in a pear tree. we brought together the best team possible to do this in schools, because as you said, we have to be able to provide information to people so that we can control and isolate the virus. that's the only way back to schools. we all want students and teachers back in schools in the safest way possible, and this is that way. >> andy, you've been saying this in one way or another the entire time we've been dealing with this every time the issue of schools, and, frankly, any community activity comes up. why is it taking so long?
>> well, we used the testing capacity that we have created that we should have been using for schools for people going to bars, for people getting sick, for people doing the activities they wanted to do over the summer. and we didn't make the sacrifice and the -- and the task force took about a month and a half off. so if we had actually decided, you know what, we're going to prioritize schools, do what the superintendent wants to do as the most important thing and we chose that, then -- we would have been able to have enough testing so that we would have been able to open on time much more safely. >> but that would have required us not allowing people to get back to places of business which would have forced a lot of economic pain. >> you know, and sometimes in a pandemic you have to choose the least bad option. no one ever promised us we could have everything we wanted. the debate we could have had are what are the things that can be open? i think we know that small businesses can be open.
we know that certain offices can be open. people can be outside. but certain things like bars create hot spots, and i think there was very much of a trade-off that we were unwilling to make or at least unwilling to discuss that if we had chosen differently, and we should choose differently now, we'd get better results from schools. >> or if we were all on the same page from the beginning, you're going to stay home, mask up when you go out, be hygiene crazy for this amount of weeks, we'd be in a different case flow situation. there is a lot of research out there to suggest just that. so, superintendent, what will it mean now for you, if you get all the testing capacity that you want, will kids be able to go back to school five days a week full-time? >> so what we're doing -- and we wish at the federal level the tools and resources were provided. we've had to provide for ourselves. we have secured testing capacity. we've brought in the experts. what this will do is get us back in the safest manner possible,
and as importantly, keep students in school because we have the ability to isolate, were it to occur. we've all seen the examples in indiana somewhere. a middle school, someone's identified with the virus. nobody knows who, where, how, where it came from our who else in the school might have it. by lunchtime, everyone goes home and the school becomes a haunted house. it's not just a question hoff how we get back, it's how we keep students and teachers and schools in the safest manner possible. this program allows to do that. >> superintendent, thank you very much. we'll follow up with you. find out what's working, what's not. frankly, we're lost on this. this is not a pocketed problem. you're going to have economic opportunity and you're going to have education opportunity gaps expand because of this, but slavitt, me, you, we're all in the same bucket in this. nobody's kids are where they want them to be. we're not with any degree of confidence. superintendent beutner, good luck. andy slavitt, i've got to hand it to you, you've been saying testing and tracing, if we don't expand the capacity, if the federal government doesn't do what it could do to coax these
companies into doing it, we're going to be stuck and here we are. gentlemen, thank you for helping us frame the reality. we'll be right back. ♪ take the good, with the bad ♪ live the life you want to have♪ ♪ send it off, with a bang ♪ ♪ whistling your cells. trillions of them. that's why centrum contains 24 key nutrients to support your energy. so you can take care of what matters most. and try new centrum minis today. look at that embarrassing you. that wall is your everest. but not any more.
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all right. reality. okay? that's what we're going through tonight about this. the testing isn't there, that's why our kids aren't in school. we got to stay on it. we got to do better because kids are going to lose too much time. i don't know how they get that back. this election, what matters to me is will it be a fair process? the president is hitting you with something that i can disprove to you right now, okay? he says 80 million unsolicited ballots are gonna be sent out. he has warned about it at least 20 times this month. that 80 million number is actually the number of voters across 41 states who must request their ballot by mail and
are expected to do so. in several of those states you still need an acceptable non-covid excuse. that's that number. not what he said. it is the opposite of unsolicited. it must be solicited. nine states plus washington, d.c. do send unsolicited ballots. that adds up to some 43 million voters. half the number potus claims. now, where could the president's campaign of disuasion lead you? who better to ask than top republican election lawyer ben ginsberg. sound familiar? represented george w. bush in the famous/infamous 2000 florida recount.
counselor, good to see you. >> good to see you, chris. >> you know this stuff. what's your concern of the rhetoric and the reality? >> the rhetoric is a problem. we've never had a president of the united states who has called our elections rigged and fraudulent. i've been working precincts and national election day operations for 38 years. and the evidence to back up a claim that our elections are rigged or fraudulent simply is not there. and that has a pernicious influence on people accepting the credibility of the results. popular acceptance of the results is a pillar, the bedrock of the democracy. so it's dangerous to make sweeping allegations like that without evidence. >> one step sideways and then i want to ask you about the concerns of the process specifically. do you think that we will have a prediction of a winner on november 3rd? i say a prediction because ben
knows this, but just to make you aware at home, we never know the winner on election night. that doesn't happen until a couple of weeks after when the elects go and make their count. we do a prediction based on what we know from the exit polls. do you think we will have that this election on november 3rd? >> only under some circumstances. the number of absentee ballots, the 80 million that are gonna come in means that the count will be delayed in most states, but there is some bellwether states who will get results, historically have gotten results pretty quickly on election night. if joe biden is winning florida, and florida is one of those states that does process its absentee ballots quickly, then you're going to have a pretty clear outcome on election night. if donald trump is winning new hampshire or minnesota or nevada, states that hillary clinton won narrowly then that's a pretty good indicator of what the final result is. >> it's going to be so tight,
ben, i don't think it's going to be good enough, but i take your counsel on it, obviously. that's why i asked you the question. the process. trump's main salvo and his supporters or surrogates is, man, mail-in ballot, how do you know who even sent it in? how do you even know? it's so easy to cheat. you can just show up at the ballot and vote a second time and maybe you'll even try that because the president told you to. but it's hard to secure it this way. >> yeah, it is, but the states have all worked out mechanisms on their votes. again, we republicans and the democrats as well have been looking for fraudulent and rigged elections for the last 40 years. and the evidence is simply not there that absentee ballotings aren't accurate. a number of the states that use universal ballots actually have minimal instances of -- of reported fraud. so, again, if you're gonna make this sweeping allegations, you
have to have the evidence, and the evidence isn't there. are you worried that republicans won't vote by mail-in ballot because just like with masks the president has kind of made them taboo? >> yeah, i -- it's sort of a self-defeating strategy, really. i mean, republican voters look to be about a third as likely to submit an absentee ballot. absentee ballots are a wylie political operative's dream. their vote's in the bank. in normal circumstances you want people to participate through absentee ballots because then there is less of a turnout operation on election day. it's why you see a number of republicans state parties and campaigns sort of countermanding the president's rhetoric and telling their supporters to actually vote by absentee. >> ben ginsberg, i'd love to have you back because this is becoming an issue to watch all the way through, if for no other reason than toxic suggestion
from the top. so we have to keep the facts and reality straight for people. i'd very much appreciate your help in doing so. >> thanks, chris. >> stay healthy. i'll see you soon. all right. let's take a quick break. with lush honey and propolis known to nourish and repair as a whole blend, it helps heal damage to the ends blended makes us better whole blends by garnier, naturally
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in the wrongful death of breonna taylor. the 26-year-old emt was killed in march, you may remember, during a botched police raid at her apartment. so what's the settlement? settlement's about money, in one part. the city is going to pay her family $12 million. louisville will, also, launch sweeping police reforms. but the question becomes, what does this mean in terms of solved? listen. >> as significant as today is, it it's only the beginning of getting full justice for breonna. it's time to move forward with the criminal charges because she deserves that and much more. her beautiful spirit and
personality is working through all of us, on the ground. so, please, continue to say her name. >> ben crump, baker, the taylor family's attorneys. >> good to see you. >> counselor baker. what today -- does today mean -- tell the aud yepience that this civil settlement does not preclude criminal action. but what is your concern? >> yes. it's important that people know, while we resolved the wrongful death lawsuit, which included sweeping reform, that was very important to breonna taylor's family. it's also equally important the offices are held reliable. and i say nothing less because there may be evidence that i've not been privy to that warrants a high charge that there is a higher charge, we demand those. but at a minimum, what the
public has had access to, there is sufficient evidence for a grand jury to an indictment for second-degree manslaughter. >> counselor. counselor crump, as we both know, there is nothing in this settlement of any admission of wrongdoing, even though it's a wrongful death suit by the police. it is a settlementme meaning wee not going to say we did anything wrong but let's settle it. it is unusual for a civil settlement to come before a prosecution, of any kind. this is a little unusual, in terms of timing. what does this mean to you, counselor crump? >> chris, i think this was a landmark step toward getting justice for breonna taylor. it's not just about the $12 million historic settlement, which i believe is one of the highest, ever paid out for a
black woman and a wrongful death police shooting in america. and it to say that black women's live matter, too. but it's equally important about the reform because breonna taylor's mother really wanted this settlement to be about trying to prevent another breonna taylor from happening in the future because too much about this pandemic in black america where the police are killing black people unjustifiably. >> counsel baker, reforms. reform is a word that, on its face, means nothing. it's all about how it will be. there is a little bit of an irony here that police reform led to the type of targeting of different neighborhoods and targets that led police to target where breonna taylor was. so reform isn't always a remedy. what will be reformed, here? and do you believe it is a remedy?
>> it's definitely not sufficient. it's sufficient for what we wanted to do here, today. but we definitely recognize that additional reform for our criminal justice system is necessary, still needed, and we intend to continue to work towards that reform. but the reforms we were able to get, in this case included community policing initiatives, encouraging police officers to live in the community that they patrol. also, dispatch and social workers respond to mental health crisis so we don't have police officers responding to situations where mental health professionals are needed. we also have accountability reform measures. so looking at early-warning systems that will let the office of the inspector general, which is being created, be able to identify officers who may be a detriment to our community and take an action to those early warning systems. we also did a sweeping overhaul
of the way that search warrants are approved. they seek judicial approval as well. and the way that they're executed so that we don't have another situation that happened on march 13th. >> i'm not sure if you said it because i know you guys are in a restaurant. you're going to be with the taylor family. and i appreciate you taking time out, in that venue. and we're hearing you just fine so thank you very much. but one of them, of the reforms, is the city must track police use of force incidents and citizen complaints. it is mind boggling that we really don't even track this kind of activity, in so many different places, let alone the local level. that may prove to be very meaningful. thank you, very much, for taking the time. as benjamin crump points out, an historic occasion in terms of what this settlement may mean for women of color, who have found themselves at this end of policing. but it's not the end and it is
unusual to have a civil settlement come before you got resolution on the criminal side. what will that mean about what does or does not happen going forward? we'll stay on it. thank you to ben crump and lanita baker. we'll be right back. this is my body of proof. proof i can fight moderate to severe rheumatoid arthritis. proof i can fight psoriatic arthritis... ...with humira. proof of less joint pain... ...and clearer skin in psa. humira targets and blocks a source of inflammation
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