tv Anderson Cooper 360 CNN December 8, 2021 5:00pm-6:00pm PST
and we also heard from that rookie officer potter was training that day, anthony lucky. some of his testimony focused on why service weapons are on the opposite side of their duty belt. when he testified, he said it's so officers don't confuse their firearms with their tasers. erin. >> aidery yen, thank you very much. and thanks very much to all of you for being with us. "ac 360" starts now. good evening. i'm wolf blitzer sitting in for andersonment tonight, the former public servant and memoir writer who will no longer tell the public about january 6th, unless it's the book-buying public, has just raised the legal ante against lawmakers wanting to know. former trump white house chief of staff, mark meadows, fresh from blowing off the deposition today before the house select committee and facing criminal contempt proceedings is now suing the members of the kb
committee and the house speaker nancy pelosi. quoting from the filing. mr. meadows, a witness, has been put in the untenable position of choosing between conflicting privilege claims of constitutional origin and dimension. in an interview with me in the situation room, committee member zoe lofgren noting his prior cooperation in turning over thousands of documents is not buying meadows' privilege claim. >> he's sent this information over. obviously, he did not believe it was privileged. or he wouldn't have sent it. and so, to refuse to answer questions about it is really -- it's not the way things work. you assert privilege on a question-by-question basis. and he is just trying to escape telling the truth to the committee. >> tonight, the committee chairman bennie thompson says lawsuit or not, they plan to move ahead next week with a criminal contempt referral.
joining us now, the california democratic congressman, house intelligence committee chairman, and select committee member, congressman adam schiff. he is the author of the best-selling book "midnight in washington, how we almost lost our democracy and still could." congressman, thanks so much for joining us. what's your reaction politically and legally to mark meadows' lawsuit against the committee and the speaker nancy pelosi? >> well legally, i think -- by the fact that he produced thousands of documents to our committee which he acknowledges are not privileged. and now, he's saying well i can't come in and testify because it would be privileged? um, he can't have it both ways. and so, i think it's a very superficial filing, meant to try to obstruct and stall. but it won't be successful. we intend to move forward and hold him in criminal contempt and -- and expect and hope that
justice department will move with equal -- >> were you surprised by his latest legal move? >> i was surprised by it in the sense i wasn't expecting a lawsuit. i don't think it's going to do him any good. interestingly, he claims what accounts for his about face is purported desire to cooperate. and then, his change of heart, um, was a committee decision to subpoena phone records. um, that suggests that perhaps he was concerned that the phone records might contradict what he was telling the committee. um, or maybe it was the president got upset with his book or upset with the former president was upset that he was cooperating. i don't know. but the reality is something led him to abandon cooperation with the committee. um, but i think he's really in a compromised legal position because he's provided information to committee which he acknowledges is not privileged. and yet, he's refused to appear to answer questions about those very documents.
>> the committee has reportedly sent out subpoenas to multiple phone and telecom companies, asking for records. what can those records, congressman, possibly tell you about the calls and messages that mark meadows and others have, thus far, refused to hand over? and how much have you learned from the records that meadows actually did turn over before ceasing cooperation, some 6,000 documents we're told? >> well, you know, the answer to your question about what we have learned from when he did turn over, i can only refer to some of the documents that the chairman made public in his letter to meadows' counsel. but they go right to the heart of the matter. the communications that he had, um, about january 6th, as well as a body of information he provides in his book. so it's not just the documents that we got from him. um, but very pertinent about the planning that went into challenging the certification process. about what the expectations might have been for violence and perhaps the need for the
national guard on january 6th. so, a lot of questions that are deeply relevant. in terms of what value phone records can add, without getting into any specifics about what particular phone records we might be interested in, phone records allow you to make contacts between different individuals at key moments in the chronology. who was talking to whom at what time? it doesn't give you content of the communications but if a witness tells you no, i never had a conversation with this person or that person and you have phone records that show otherwise, then it gives you a basis to make sure that you are getting the full truth. >> does it seem to you that steve bannon has actually set the playbook for how people in former-president trump's orbit should deal with your committee if they want to stay in -- in his good graces, for that matter? does your committee have the ability to conduct a full investigation in the face of that kind of stonewalling? >> we do and we will.
we'll do whatever is necessary to make sure that we get the information we need to legislate and protect the country. um, in terms of whether steve bannon's setting a template, he may be setting a template for going to jail. um, to martyr themselves to the former president. i don't think that's a -- a precedent many others are going to want to follow. um, but at the end of the day, the vast majority of people that we're reaching out to are cooperating. and many are reaching out to us. the outliers are the people like bannon and meadows and clark who are not willing to answer their lawful obligation to testify. we are taking appropriate action against them. >> the investigation, as you well know, congressman, is obviously not the only time that the congress has investigated donald trump. millions of americans know you as the lead democrat on virtually everything related to the former president and russia, for that matter. and as you know, according to cnn and other major news
organizations, a series of investigations and lawsuits have discredited many of the infamous so-called trump dossier central allegations, and exposed the unreliability of that so-called dossier's sources. do you worry, congressman, that your credibility, other democrats' credibility, could be hurt by that? and that it potentially could impact how some see this current investigation? >> no and understand the very limited role that the steel dossier played and also understand that while we may now know that one of his primary sources was lying to him, it doesn't change donald trump's corrupt behavior in 2016. it doesn't change the fact that donald trump's campaign chairman was secretly meeting with russian intelligence and providing russian intelligence internal campaign polling data and a strategy for key battleground states while the kremlin intelligence agency was running a covert campaign to
help donald trump win his election. it doesn't change the fact that the president's son was secretly meeting in trump tower with the russian delegation to get dirt on hillary clinton or that others in trump orbit were also seeking the gain of the russian hack of the democratic party. and so, the steel dossier is a nice talking point for kind of right-wing pundits but it's a distraction from what we did learn and what we did learn was very damning of the former president, of the russians, and his campaign. >> did you ever believe those -- those allegations in the steel dossier? >> well, some of those allegations proved to be all too accurate. in fact, steel did report -- and bear in mind, wolf, steel was a respected former member of british intelligence. someone who could not be immediately ruled out as a credible source. some of that reporting was among the first reporting that the russians were helping donald
trump in his campaign. and that, the orders to help the trump campaigning -- campaign were coming from the very top of the kremlin, indeed coming from vladimir putin. and so, some of that information proved to be all too accurate. devastatingly so. others proved to be quite wrong. and the reason you do investigation is to find out what's true and what's not. >> i know you're co-sponsoring, congressman, what's called the protect our democracy act which is being taken up in the house this week. its aim is to, among other things, curb executive power. what kind of abuses do you think could have been avoided if a law like this had been in place in recent years and frankly, even if it passes the house, do you think it really will ever clear the 60-vote threshold needed in the senate? >> well, it would certainly have helped protect our democracy against an abusive president. a president abusing their power. it would have, for example, expedited enforcement of
congressional subpoenas. so, it wouldn't have taken us two years to get former-white house counsel don mcgahn's incriminating testimony. um, it would protect inspector generals so they couldn't be fired as donald trump fired i think five inspector generals because they were revealing things of malfeasance or corruption within the executive. it would have better protected whistle-blowers that -- that faced death threats as a result of the president's actions. it would -- it would've helped congress prevent the former president or future president from enriching themselves by violating the emoluments clause and having gulf nations rent hotel rooms they didn't bother to occupy as a way of enriching the president and ingratiating themselves. it would have put teeth in the hatch act. so, kellyanne conway couldn't violate the hatch act and merely say, well, blah, blah, blah, you know, who is going to do anything about it? so, in those ways and many others, if we had a problem again with, for example, an
official at the office of management and budget refusing to ascertain who the winner of an election is, a cure for that too. so very important reforms. >> congressman schiff, thanks as usual for joining us. >> thank you, wolf. joining us now, cnn political analyst and "new york times" washington correspondent, maggie haberman, who's been reporting extensively on all of this. maggie, thanks for joining us. i know you have been reporting on how unhappy the former president has been with meadows. does this lawsuit appear to be, at least in part, an attempt from meadows to please the former president by emulating what he does, specifically sue people? >> it -- it's hard to say, wolf. it -- it's clear that this is something that is -- is a trump tactic and we have seen it time and again. we also did see it from a former deputy national security council aide during the impeachment trial, as well. where he was trying to delay having to be -- or oppose being called in as -- as a witness. and so, it's not completely, you
know, new ground here. but it certainly is the donald trump playbook is to sue, to either try to delay or stall or just completely undo what's happening. i don't know exactly when meadows started engaging with the committee or disengaging with the committee, i should say. so it's impossible to say sitting here whether it's directly related to his book but the timing is -- is inevitable yay going to raise questions about the fact that meadows has this book coming out this week. there were early excerpts last week in which he revealed all kinds of things about trump's bout with coronavirus that upset the former president to have out there. so, it -- it -- it certainly, on the surface, looks as if these might be related. >> despite all the noise, maggie, that meadows is now making. how much damage has potentially already been done with everything he's handed over to the committee? some-6,000 documents, we are told. >> uh, look. i think that there is clearly a huge amount of information that they have in these texts. it's hard for me to know what he
turned over, versus, you know, what he is still hanging onto. we know from a letter that bennie thompson sent meadows, that -- that -- that, you know, there were some texts suggesting that meadows was in touch with lawmakers three to four days after the election talking about alte alternate slates of electors. that's far earlier than i think f any of us realized at least externally that they had been talk about this idea. so, you know, i think that there is probably a fair amount of information the committee has. exactly what it looks like and what he is withholding, only he knows but i do think the basic point that it's hard to write a book and then turn over a bunch of documents and say actually it's executive privilege. that is hard to swallow. >> good point. one of the former president's expectations, maggie, i know you are doing a lot of reporting on this. in terms of his inner circle, is anything short of steve bannon's level of defiance really acceptable to trump? >> uh, i think that trump
recognizes that some people are going to cooperate to some extent with the committee. i don't actually think he is saying to everybody go do what steve bannon is doing. i think steve bannon wants to do what steve bannon is doing. and i have said before, i will say again, i think steve bannon is having to some extent the time of his life. this is not a felony charge. it's a misdemeanor charge and i think that he -- he feels as if is this more faceable than when he was previously under indictment for a felony and he got a pardon from trump. so i don't know that this is actually trump saying to people, wolf, don't do this. but i do think that people know that they have ways to curry favor with trump and, you know, looking as if you are going to the far ends of the earth to try to support him or defend him is one of those ways. >> maggie haberman, thanks so much for joining us. >> thank you. up next. just a day after their video summit, there is breaking news on russia's military buildup on ukraine's border. also, what president biden is threatening if russia invades the former national security council and russia expert, fiona
hill, standing by to join us live. and later, our randi kaye asks the former vice president if he'd run for president even if it means taking on his old boss. as you will see, when you see what he said and how he said it, there is a lot going on right now. stay with us. we'll be right back. but when it comes to my insurance i don't. i use liberty mutual, they customize your car insurance, so you only pay for what you need. wooo, yeaa, woooooo and, by switching you could even save 665 dollars. hey tex, can someone else get a turn? yeah, hang on, i'm about to break my own record. yeah. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty. ♪
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from the very first touch, pampers, the #1 pediatrician recommended brand, helps keep baby's skin drier and healthier. so every touch will protect like the first. pampers there is breaking and rather ominous news tonight on the russian threat to ukraine. according to a new ukrainian security assessment, russia has now boosted troop numbers near the border to 120,000. also tonight, we learned that president biden will speak tomorrow with ukraine's president and eastern european nato allies. that, on top of news that the u.s. general mark milley spoke today by phone with his polish and french counterparts. earlier today, president biden ruled out a direct u.s. military
response if russia invades while explicitly, though, threatening to hammer russia's economy. watch this. >> we have a moral obligation and a legal obligation to our nato allies if they were to attack under article v, it's the sacred obligation. that obligation does not extend to nato. i mean, to ukraine. if, in fact, he invades ukraine, it will be severe consequences. severe consequences. economic consequences, like none he's ever seen or ever have been seen. >> ukraine as you might know is not a nato member. that said, the pentagon confirmed today that the final elements of an american military assistance package should be in ukraine by week's end. all this coming exactly 30 years, to the day, since the leaders of ukraine, russia, belarus -- they all signed the agreement dissolving the old
soviet union. i was in moscow and witnessed that historic moment. the question tonight. how to handle a russian president who seems to rue that day. joining us now, fiona hill. she served during the last administration as the national security council senior director for europe kwaan and russian affairs. but she is perhaps best known for her testimony during the first trump impeachment on his efforts to strong arm ukraine's president into helping him win re-election. fiona hill is also the author, by the way, of a very important book "there is nothing for you here, finding opportunity in the 21st century." fiona, thanks so much for joining us. you hear president biden's vow to unleash what he says would be unprecedented sanctions, economic sanctions, diplomatic sanctions against putin's government if russia invades ukraine. is that going to be enough to deter putin, in your view? because you also heard the president rule out, at least for now, direct u.s. military action.
>> well, it really, wolf, depends on how this is structured. it certainly won't be enough if it is just the united states taking action. so i think what's significant here is all of the talk we have heard between the president and other european leaders. as you mentioned, there are talks underway with some of the eastern european nato allies, including poland, which obviously are going to be incredibly concerned about what is happening. ukraine is right next door to poland. the polls have been extraordinary recently about developments in belarus right next door there as well. but president biden has also been talking to the leaders of united kingdom, france, germany, and also italy. that's in the so-called quint, the five kind of key allies in the united states. and if we have collective action on this range of issues that president biden is sketching out there, then that might be sufficient at least to push
russia in the direction of where we're headed at the moment of a diplomatic approach to this. clearly, president biden's been very direct and not raising expectations of any kind of u.s. military assistance here to ukraine. beyond what we are already providing in terms of material and equipment to ukraine on an ongoing basis. but clearly, a very concerted, diplomatic effort is necessary here and we're starting to see the shape of this. >> what about, fiona, energy sanctions in particular, which cmn is reporting are seen as a last report within the biden administration because of the potential impact on the global economy? do you think it will come down to that? >> well, look. this is something that's been discussed before on many occasions. i mean, there is obviously the question about the nord stream 2 pipeline that flows directly from russia to germany and the
united hasstates has put a lot pressure to stop the development of that pipeline and of course it's in its very last phases now. but absolutely, the larger implications of going after the russian energy sector at a time where we're having problems in the energy space, altogether, because of supplies and distribution and the way that we have been trying to ramp the economy back up again after covid. you know, we've seen massive shocks around the globe from other interruptions of supply thinking back to the 1970s and the aftermath for example. and there were discussions about doing something similar during the standoff in venezuela a couple years ago when russia intervened there, as well. to prop up nicolas maduro in the -- in the midst of an international effort. and people pulled back from that because of the ramifications because this would have international reverberations. so i think this is something we would have to approach with caution. and again, collectively. there has to be support from europeans and others for more drastic action and sanctions.
it's no good if the united states just does this alone. >> as we all know, vladimir putin prides himself on maneuvering and manipulating situations in terms of next steps, though, what should we be looking for, fiona, for an indication of where this is all heading? >> well, we're already seeing it. you, yourself, mentioned at the top of this, wolf, the way that the -- the reports now that the russians have increased the number of troops. i mean, putin intends to keep the pressure on. this is, um, his way of gunboat diplomacy, getting us all to the table to talk about the things that he is concerned about. vladimir putin wants his security dilemmas addressed. this isn't just an issue of our security, ukraine's security, or europe's security. he is trying to kind of force a whole set of discussions as he wanted right from the very beginning. you said we are talking today on the 30th anniversary of the dissolution of the soviet union. for putin and for russia, this marked an enormous loss.
the loss of a state the ekd second time in the 20th century after the russian revolution. ukraine is part of that. but really, what putin wants to do is thrash out russia's place in europe. so he is going to keep the pressure on himself. he wants to get us towards the negotiating table. and we are going to have to figure out, along with our european allies, about how we manage this. >> fiona hill, thanks so much for joining us and thanks for all your service. appreciate it very much. >> thanks, wolf. the ceo of instagram in the hot seat on capitol hill today as senators demand the popular social media app do better to protect children. senator blumenthal, who faced off with the ceo during today's hearing, is standing by to join us live.
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on capitol hill today, the instagram ceo was grilled during a contentious hearing where lawmakers obt on both sides of the aisle argued for stricter government oversight of social media apps. asked the boss why the company didn't do anything about a set of accounts promoting eating disorders to kids until cnn reported those back in october. >> shouldn't children and parents have the right to report
dangerous material and get a response? get some action? because we've heard stories from parents who tried to report and have heard no response. my office made a report and got no response until cnn made the report to press relations. shouldn't there be an obligation that instagram will respond? >> senator, yes, i believe we try and respond to all reports. and if we ever fail to do so, that is a mistake that we should correct. >> senator blumenthal was referring to an experiment run by his office back in september where they set up an instagram account belonging to a 13-year-old girl. the account followed some pages about dieting and eating disorders, and quickly, instagram began promoting more accounts glorifying eating disorders to that 13-year-old girl's account. the instagram -- instagram failed to detect the accounts. did not -- did not do anything about them, until the company
was asked about them by cnn. senator blumenthal is joining us right now. senator, thanks so much for joining us. you told the head of instagram that there was a, quote, real lack of connection to the reality of what is there in the testimony you are giving today end quote. is it clear to you why it would take a report by cnn to have instagram shut down accounts that clearly violate their policies? >> there is no excuse for it. but it dramatically shows one of the key failings of instagram and a lot of these tech platforms, which is they have no responsiveness to parents or anyone else reporting this toxic addictive content that is driven to children by the black-box the 600-pound gorillas in the black box. these algorithmic formulas that
actually expand the profit of instagram at the expense of kids. and that's why i asked him about parental controls and means of intervention because parents have been saying to me how do we help our children? how do we protect our children who are going down these rabbit holes of eating disorders, bullying, self-harm, even suicide? and the lack of transparency and the refusal of this ceo of instagram to say he would make those algorithms transparent, that he would allow an independent expert to look at the algorithms, i think, speaks volumes and it was quite remarkable how the bipartisan outrage indicates that we are moving toward legislation. we are not going to rely on instagram to police itself. >> i know your office has not only examined eating disorders, senator, and their connection to instagram. but also, search terms related to suicide d-- suicides. what have you found? >> what we have found is that
a -- an account which indicated an interest in self-harm produced images so graphic, i couldn't produce them in a senate hearing room. and these kinds of images, again, are driven addictively to kids who may have anxieties, stresses, problems. now, social media didn't create the mental health crisis in this country. but it has fanned the flames of those anxieties. taking kids down those rabbit holes to dark places, and increases their suicidal ideations. >> i know you and senator ted cruz have agreed that instagram has to be more forthcoming with their own data and research into these issues. do you think they will actually make those documents, eventually, available to you, absent new laws or regulations? do you have much incentive -- do they have much incentive to actually cooperate with
congress? >> i have grown increasingly skeptical, wolf, about the level of cooperation from these tech companies. i hope i'm pleasantly surprised. but a number of them have said they are going to produce their research, and make their algorithms transparent. we have yet to see it in fact. and so, i think we need legislation on privacy to protect the enormous amounts of data that are collected on kidkids. on transparency to show what these algorithms are doing. they don't have to be this toxic. and of course, on parental controls so that mom and dad know what their kids are doing and can intervene. but also, a duty of care. you know, the united kingdom has a child protection code that includes a duty of care. a number of other provisions. why should kids in the uk be better protected than kids in the united states? and so, along with reform of
section 230 which grants these sites broad immunity that platforms have a legal shield that almost no other industry has. i think we need strong reforms. and the trust that would be required for self-policing or self-regulation just has been squandered. >> senator blumenthal, thanks so much for joining us. >> thank you. we will continue to this frgz conversation down the road. up next, chilling video and emotional testimony in the trial of a former police officer who claims she mistakenly pulled her gun instead of her taser when she shot and killed a black man. we will have the latest from the courtroom, when we come back.
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during opening statements today, the attorney for a suburban minneapolis police officer said kim potter believed that shedry a taser, not a hand when she shot and killed 20-year-old daunte wright. in body camera video shooting of the officer, potter is heard yelling taser, taser, taser, which says shows she was not aware she was holding a gun but the prosecutor argued officer potter -- a 26-year veteran of the force -- had been trained how to avoid such deadly mix-ups. more now from cnn security correspondent, josh campbell. >> this was the moment officer
kim potter says she made a fatal mistake which cost 20-year-old daunte wright his life. wright was pull over by police in brooklyn center, minnesota, last april for a traffic violation. during that stop, officers discovered an outstanding warrant for failure to appear on a gross misdemeanor weapons violation. wright was being handcuffed when he struggled and jumped back into his car. that's when officer potter pulled out her gun. >> i'll tase you! taser, taser, taser! [ bleep ]. i just shot him. i shot him, oh, my god. oh, my god. >> reporter: daunte wright was pronounced dead at the scene from a gunshot wound to his chest. >> there is no do-over when you take a young man's life. >> reporter: kim potter is now on trial for first and second-degree manslaughter.
she has pleaded not guilty and said she meant to use her taser which is holstered on her left side but mistakenly withdrew her firearm from her right side. in opening arguments, prosecutors showed the juror body camera footage of the shooting. and focused on the firearms training potter received which they say was extensive. >> she was trained not to shoot an unarmed driver. she was trained not to fire into a vehicle. and she was also trained not to use her taser on a fleeing suspect. we trust them to know wrong from right and left from right. >> the defense's opening statement laid out potter's history as a 26-year veteran of the brooklyn center police department and 49-year-old mother of two children. until daunte wright's death, she had never fired her gun or her taser according to the defense. >> she realizes what has happened. much to her ever-lasting and
unending regret. >> reporter: her attorney said potter was afraid her partner was in danger and pulled it trigger of her weapon thinking it was her taser. >> why else would she say it? she made a mistake. this was an accident. she is a human being. but she had to do what she had to do to prevent a death to a follow officer, too. >> reporter: daunte wright's mother was the first witness to take the stand. she was distraught as she told jurors about the day her son was killed. >> it was the worst day of my life. >> reporter: prosecutors showed body camera footage to the jury of the moment wright's mother arrived at the scene. >> i don't know anything. who are you? >> i am katie bryant, his mom. i want to see him now. please. >> reporter: now wolf, one other
witness jurors heard from today was a rookie officer who was in the patrol car with kim potter on that day as they pulled daunte wright over. he was asked by defense counsel about the neighborhood. he said this was a dangerous neighborhood. there are oftentimes where they would pull over drivers who had weapons. now, upon further questioning by the prosecutor, he conceded there was no weapon that they found inside that car. of course, one of the most compelling parts of his testimony was not anything that he said but what the jurors saw. his body-camera footage where you see that moment daunte wright is shot. afterwards, kim potter. she screams. she falls into the grass. clasping her head in her hands. saying i'm going to prison. of course, that decision, wolf, will be left up to the jury. finally, this just in, wolf, we are learning from tonight the office of the minnesota governor that he is preparing the state's national guard to potentially assist local law enforcement as this trial continues. in his words, to allow for peaceful demonstrations. keeping the peace and ensuring public safety. wolf. >> all right. josh, thanks very much. josh campbell reporting for us. so let's discuss this case with
the criminal defense attorney sara azari. sara, thanks for joining us. so what did you make of the opening arguments from both the defense and the prosecution? did one side seem to make their case better than the other? >> yeah, wolf. look, i am a criminal defense attorney but i -- but i side with the prosecution in this case, at least so far. i think they came out far stronger in opening. you know, they said look she is a police officer. she should know better. she's been an officer for 26 years. she failed her duties. she failed her badge and that's correct. you know, the defense got up and said she -- um -- made a mistake. she is a human being. now, wolf, if it's you and i making a mistake pulling a glock instead of a taser, that's one thing. but this is an officer. she's held to a higher standard. and uh, that mistake in this trial needs to be reasonable, as well. you know, did she make that mistake in good faith? was it reasonable that she pulled a glock that is yellow -- i'm sorry, a glock that's black, versus a taser that's yellow? one that weighs twice as much as the other.
so, um, you know, this case is going to turn on whether the deadly force was justified, which it was not. and whether the mistake that she's claiming was reasonable, in and of itself. >> as -- as we mentioned, the prosecution's first witness was daunte wright's mother who was obviously and understandably very emotional. do you think that was an effective strategy to put her on the stand to try to show jurors who her son was? >> 100%, wolf. because, look, i have represented both police officers and civilians in use-of-force cases and the biggest mistake the defense can make is to blame a dead victim which is what they did in opening statement. they said had he complied, he would be living today. and so, the prosecutor went right to the spark of life witness, putting the mother on the hand to humanize daunte. to show that he was a family man, he was a father, he was going off to do laundry that day. you know, that he lived with his blended family. i mean, these are important facts to humanize a -- a -- a victim who is no longer in this
courtroom. is not before the jury. and what's going to happen on the defense side is potter's going to take the stand to humanize herself. and so, it's -- it's -- it's critically important with a victim who is no longer there, for the prosecution to really, you know, hammer in his humanity. and they did that also with photographs they showed. >> sara azari, thanks so much for joining us. >> thanks, wolf. former-vice president mike pence had a busy day today making stops across new hampshire to help republicans running in 2022. but his trip is sparking a lot more rumors that he will launch his own presidential bid in 2024 despite who he could be going up against. listen. >> if donald trump runs for president, will you still run? >> what he told cnn's randi kaye, we'll hear when we come back.
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former vice president mike pence made stops across new hampshire today as republicans gear up for next year's midterm elections, amid speculation he may be gearing up for a presidential run in 2024. what about the former president? he talked about 2024 when he called into the hugh hewitt show earlier today. >> if donald trump decides not to run in 2024, who out there will that base flock to? >> if i do decide that, i think my base is going to be very angry. >> and when asked about a possible presidential run and who he thought the front runners would be, the former president said he would make his decision after mid-terms. let's go back to new hampshire where "360"'s randi
kaye caught up with the former vice president earlier today. here is her report. >> reporter: in manchester, new hampshire, where we came to speak with voters about former vice president mike pence, we were surprised when we got the man himself. >> have you made any decisions about running for president? >> our focus is on 2022 and doing everything we can to turn back the big government agenda of the biden administration. >> reporter: we asked pence directly about his future plans just as he arrived to speak with voters at an event here. >> we'll let the future take care of itself. >> reporter: if donald trump runs for president, will you still run? >> our focus is on 2022. i can honestly tell you in 2023 my family will do what we've always done, we'll reflect, we'll pray, we'll determine where we might best serve and we'll go where we're called. >> reporter: no matter who else is in the race? thank you, sir. if mike pence finds he would best serve by running, would voters support his candidacy?
>> what do you think of mike pence as a candidate for president? >> i think mike pence as a very strong candidate for any office that he chooses to run for. >> do you think mike pence would be a good president? >> yes. yes, i do. >> reporter: but the picture for pence sounded a little less rosy when donald trump became part of the conversation. many voters suggesting pence should hang up his hopes for the oval and leave it to his former boss. >> could mike pence beat trump? >> i don't think so. because trump has already established quite a following. he's well-qualified. but, uh, trump had -- he had charisma and an aura. >> do you think pence should run if donald trump runs? >> no, i don't think so. >> why not? >> because we really want donald trump to win. >> reporter: based on these voters, it seems pence's biggest obstacle may be january 6th and
the fact that he defied trump's demands and certified the 2020 election results. >> the votes for president of the united states are as follows. >> will he be blamed for that? will people consider him disloyal to donald trump if he enters the race, will he be punished in some way? >> there are laws pence had to follow and legally he did the right thing. now, is it something -- who are hard core trump lovers that the president walks on water no matter what, they'll say he's terrible. >> conservatives are very aggressive and sometimes territorial. if you have a faction out there who believes he did desert the party, they're not likely to support him. >> reporter: beyond january 6th there is also the question of enthusiasm or lack thereof for pence. >> could pence fire up that maga crowd? >> no. >> what's exciting about mike
pence? >> umm, oh, gosh. what's exciting about mark -- mike pence? >> i've stumped you. >> yeah, yeah. >> reporter: for pence, that may mean he has more work to do and even more voters to reach. >> what about a message to voters? we see him here in new hampshire. you've been to iowa and south carolina. are you trying to tell the voters something? >> we're traveling all over the country and i've got a great sense of enthusiasm. >> reporter: wolf, as you know, other names have been floated as possible republican candidates for president. we've heard from many of them. they say if donald trump enters the race, they will not run. but we're not hearing that from mike pence. in fact i asked him that directly, you saw he had walked away from the camera and returned to the camera to make it very clear if he feels the need to run for president, it won't matter to him whether or not his former boss is also running in the same race, wolf. >> thanks very much, randi kaye,
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