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tv   New Day With John Berman and Brianna Keilar  CNN  January 18, 2022 5:00am-6:00am PST

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some of the reasons why nasa is so concerned about the potential of not just this steroid, this steroid is something that has been watched and monitored and detected for decades now. what nasa astronomers are particularly worried about are those asteroids that sneak up on earth and this happened back in 2019, two years ago an asteroid got within 40,000 miles of e earth. that is nothing. this was a big asteroid, and the craziest part, john, is that nasa and astronomers around the world only noticed it less than 24 hours before it made its closest encounter to earth. and we now know it's a combination of things. i won't get into the fphysics right now but that is what nasa is most concerned about, not this one that you see that we've been monitored fobut those asteroids that go undetected until right at the last moment. >> you can't have asteroids sneaking up on you. that's unacceptable, right? >> that's when you need to start
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calling in bruce willis or what nasa is doing with this dart mission where they're trying to crash this spacecraft into an asteroid. they called bruce willis and said hey, do you want to come down for the launch and he said no. so we're on our own, john >> he'll be surprised by the asteroid that sneaks up on us but nasa, hopefully will not be. >> come on, bruce. we need you. america needs you. >> things to do. i think he's free. "new day" continues right now. >> good morning to viewers here in the united states and all around the world and perhaps on asteroids flying near earth. >> who knows? >> it is tuesday, january 18th. i'm john bedrrman.
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brian is on at 9:00 p.m. to tonight. casey hunt waking up early. >> and i am will be li a morning person. >> a huge hometown in washington today. the formal process of voting on voting rights legislation begins in the senate because of unanimous opposition from republicans and the unwi unwillingness of two democrats to change the rules. this is going to fail today likely. and that is a tough blow to the white house. the president two days away from marking one year in office and democrats are feeling the pressure of what some of them seize a stalled agenda. >> senator bernie sanders says quote, it is no great secret that the republican party is winning more and more support from people because the d democratic party has turned its back on the working class. --durbin says quote, i'm sure they're frustrated. i am. it depends on who they blame for
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it. and as democratic congressman kim ryan says, it seems like the democrats can't get out of their own way. and joining us now is that congressman. tim ryan. democrat from ohio and u.s. senate candidate. great to see you again as a always. we really appreciate it and i'd like to start on this note here. there is so much frustration right now. the president's approval rating, according to some polls, down around 33%. that is a death nel if you're the party trying to run for re-election. who is responsible for that? >> well, i think there is plenty of blame to go around, casey, but we've got to get this thing back on track. even if it means taking smaller bites. i've been traveling around ohio now for months, and there is a good deal of frustration that things aren't getting done. and we've got -- even if we pick. let's get this tax cut done, right?
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let's get that done. let's get some momentum. let's get some money in people's pockets. and we just got to get our focus back. and i think we can and there is a lot out there that we need to do, but we've got get focused and hit the reset button here i was reading a "washington post" story about this this morning. you're saying that the strategy should change on build back better and instead trying to do something big on the economic agenda, you think you should try to get some small pieces done? >> yeah, they're not small. tax cuts for working people, for families who have been str struggling for 30 or 40 years, working longer hours, six, seven days a week, many times single parents out there sloging away, a tax cut for them is not an insignificant thing. and so let's get that done. and then move on to the next thing and we build a consensus around something else. we've got veterans out there who are getting sick and have been sick because of the burn pits.
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we've got a fentanyl poisoning ep idemic. there should be some really significant issues that we should be able to come around and coal ase around and get it done and we need the president, and we need the administration to lead the way. they're in charge. the buck stops there. there is no doubt about and we're not doing good enough. >> so you mentioned both the pandemic and the president, and of course, president biden ran on the idea that he could come in, govern in a competent manner and fight back against the pandemic. and so many americans have been so confused about the guidance coming out of the cdc. there is testing shortages. apparently you're going to be able to get a test from the government but weeks late for those people who had been dealing with the omicron surge early. do you think the biden administration, do you think president biden is fighting the
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pandemic in a competent manner? >> i think there is a great deal of frustration on the ground, with families, in ohio and across the country because of the mixed signals that are coming from the cdc, from the administration, ais it 10 days, is it five days? i was running around the gr groceries stores trying to find tests and we're not sure about masks that are coming from c china. we are two years into this, and i think the frustration in families is well beyond what politicians think it is. it is at a very, very fever pitch. there is anxioety. as i said, there is all of these other issues that are still out there, too. people are working six or seven days a week. now we're doing virtual school, not virtual school. masks, no masks and i think the lack of clarity is contributing to the level of frustration. and we've got to get this right
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because these families deserve it. they're already struggling, and that's why i think you got the inflation piece. that's why we need the tax cut and got to show people in ohio and across the country that we're getting the job done. we're two years into this thing, and i think that the frustration level is getting to people here. >> and do you blame president biden for that frustration? >> well, i mean, the president is the president, and there is no question that he bears some responsibility for it, but you know, there is also congress and the senate and the republicans are my mia. they're worthless. the republican party right now is worthless. they do nothing. they make matters completely worse than they need to be. if we had some cooperation from them, whether it's voting r rights, whether it's a tax cut. now we have the republican party that was supposedly built on tax cuts, which means they support
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tax cuts for the top 1% and the amazons of the world. but for the small businesses and the working-class people that are out there, they're not for those tax cuts. so let me be very, very clear while i'm frustrated with the administration, i'm really ripped over what the republicans are doing because they're wo worthless and they're not contributing to try to solve these big problems. but the president needs to lead us. let's get these tax cuts done. we'for working people and let'st momentum and start moving forward again. >> your point is well taken about republicans, but on the other hand, it seems like if voters -- what are the voters that you're talking to going to do? are they going to stay home or but have no choice but to vote republican because they're so unhappy with what's going on? >> they know the republicans are mia, which is why i'm frustrated because there is this huge void for asdvocating for the work class and it got caught up in
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this whole build back better argument that we had late last year. we've got to get back on track, and casey, let's be very clear here. if we pass a tax cut for these families again, we will then re-establish ourselves as the party of the working class, the republicans aren't going to vote for it, so let's take this one big step for them and then let them know who is fighting for them. and then the fentanyl poisoning and the burn pits issue with vets. let's get some momentum going and maybe we can do a universal preschool something with the medicare and the hearing aids and the glasses for people. we should be asdvocating for getting money in the pockets of working class people, whether they're seniors or single moms or teachers, nurses. let's go. let's get this thing done because the world's not waiting and here is the issue, too. real quick. like, china's running circles around us right now. they're shooting hypersonic
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missiles all the way around the world and we're sitting here having fights about big bird and zm dr. zeus and crazy snuff and meanwhile they're eating our lunch in technology and other things and we've got to stop didling around, and let's win back these working-class people and reset the agenda. and we can do it. we can do it, and we need the president to lead the way. >> congressman, very briefly. do you think that democrats are wasting ptime on voting rights? from what we can tell, it's going nowhere. spending their time doing something else instead? >> i think we need to have the vote. i think we need to call the question and have the vote. you can't move the needle for working class people if they don't have access to the ballot box. white, black, brown people. whatever. we need to get to the ballot box and right now that is not there intentional movement in states to disenfranchise people. one drop box in a whole county.
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the ability to be able to purge voter lists at random. the ability to move precinct locations or voting locations will yiy-nilly in black c communities, for example. that's nonsense. and that should be stopped. and we need to call a question and have a vote on it and i think get back to the economic agenda that working people are dying for us to pass. because those tax cuts, they apply to white people, black people, brown worpeople, workin class. let's go. we have to call the question and make shure we know where everybody stands on that issue and then continue to fight. and then maybe we take smaller chunks of the voting right p piece. maybe we make election day a holiday. let's get that done and then we start moving forward. but let's maybe take smaller chunks but in the right direction. i think the american people would like to see that. >> congressman tim ryan. we really appreciate you being
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here. i think there was a lot in there. >> there was a lot in there. >> i think that was a really interesting, important discussion. when a guy like tim ryan, who speaks his mind, but says unreservedly that the voters are frustrated with the white house and president biden is partly to blame because he's in charge, that's a thing. >> it's pretty significant. this is, i think, a turning point for democrats because this frustration has been building for the last few months. i've been talking privately with very loyal democrats in congress who have been watching what is happening across the country. and this is always how it happens, right? it builds out in the country first. it takes often us a while to realize what's going on. but people like tim ryan are out in their communities and hearing people say hey, things are not going well for me and maybe they don't want to vote republican, like ang ie, who is upset about her children in school. now she's got nowhere to go. i think that's what you're
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hearing tim ryan say there and to hear them start to say hey, in public, the biden administration's part of this problem, that is not a good place to be. >> they were trying to do big things. the build back better agenda and the voting rights acts are big things and i think there was this notion that they wanted to get caught trying to do it. however, what tim ryan seems to be saying is you need to get caught doing something even if it's not as big. >> we need to do stuff that we can run for re-election on and right now he's acknowledging that hey, it's been a while since we've done anything and let's not forget what he said about testing the cdc and messaging and how rough that's been. >> totally. again, he was fkind and he clearly likes joe biden there, but he also clearly was trying to send a message right there. that was an interesting discussion. all right, we have brand new reporting from jake tapper. three dozen former trump officials held a conference call last monday to discuss efforts
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to fend off trump's efforts to, in their view, erode the d democratic process. participants included former white house chief of staff and fara griffin, anthony sca scaramucci. ideas ranged from shining a light on trump's contributors to directly targeting each election candidate he endorses. jake reports quote, the only item they seemed to agree upon, however, they're not sure what their way forward should be in that they are way behind the efforts of former president donald trump and his allies to set the stage for 2022-2024 and beyond. kelly, apparently had a previous engagement. he stayed on the line for 10 minutes. there were a lot of people that we don't know the name of everyone there. the cast was interesting but there didn't appear to be any jiend resolution. >> and the fact that they seemed to be behind where the potential trump campaign is is also telling because that's sort of
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where the never trump movement has found itself throughout the last four years and perhaps heading into the next ones. one year after leaving the oval office, donald trump has, of course, not retired. his staffers are building his political machine amassing money and getting the rnc to pay for some of his personal legal b bills. cnn's gabby orr joins us now with her new reporting. gabby, it's good to see you. and we were obviously, talking about this from several different angles, but i know you've been digging into how the operation that the former president is running has changed since he first headed back to marrow largo. what have you learned? >> a lot has changed since trump left office. nearly one year ago to the date. he didn't know if he would have a future in republican politics athat the time and did not have a plan for sure. he was isolated down at marrow largo. he was doling out endorsements to whichever candidate got to him first. he was really flying by the seat
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of his pants. and i spent the past two weeks asking trump aides and trump advisers what's changed over the last year? and there are two things that stood out to me. number one, that vetting process for determining which candidates he's going to endorse anin a number of these republican p primaries has seen a lot of organization brought to it since he added suzie wiles, this veteran republican campaign operative to his team down in florida. instead of speaking with wh whichever candidate, he's now sitting for a presentation on the latest polling and the latest field research in different races before he meets with these candidates. that is a significant change from what he was doing last spring, when he almost blew up the ohio primary with a very early endorsement of jim tinken. number two, he's starting to listen to allies who say former president trump, you need to focus on 2022 if you want to have any chance at a successful
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comeback bid in 2024. he has obviously spent a great deal of time focusing on voting reform but his focus has slowly begun to shift to 2022 and what he can do to use that as a lunch pad for a potential presidential campaign down the road who are the people around him? same cast of characters or different folks? >> he's surrounded himself by the same people who were with him at the white house and t talking regularly to kelly ann coni and steven miller. household names who we came to know very well during the tr trutrump era. but there are some new faces who have made it into his inner circle well. i'm told that carlos true hia, the embambassador to the organization of american states during the trump administration, has become a pretty regular adviser, somebody who trump regularly bounces ideas off of,
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asks political advice from. somebody who has made his way into that inner circle. >> you mentioned 20 22. i'm curious what the interest is senate races republicans in washington have increasingly been optimistic about their chances of not necessarily definitively taking back the senate but about it being much more in playi, considering the president's approval rating. but a lot of that has to do with the candidates that they pick somin some of these primaries. where is the former president's head in terms of that particular piece of -- is he willing to listen to republicans and say hey, you need to back candidates who don't necessarily agree with your big lie or aren't out there talking about it every day or is he not open to that argument at all? >> i would point to alabama as a great example of a candidate who has a trump endorsement. mel brooks is running there and
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he's been out on the campaign trail regularly, telling alabama voters we need to look beyond the 202 it election and he has not lost trump's dormant. the former president isn't necessarily happy with that message but he hasn't withdrawn his endorsement and he hasn't gone out there and issued a statement critical of brooks. so there are instances where trump is willing to bend a little bit to allow these c candidates some flexibility and to tailor their message in such a way that will help them in a p primary and you mentioned georgia, casey. that's one castate where i spok with a lot of advisers who said they really feel confident that walker can run a successful campaign against warnock but they don't want trump to go to georgia to campaign for walker and focus exclusively on 20 20. that did not work in those r runoff elections last january, and they're really hoping that he doesn't do that again. >> thank you very much for being with us and sharing your reporting.
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we really appreciate it. >> thank you. >> coming up next, new york city's new mayor eric adams gets heckled at the garden. don lemon joins us live. and just revealed, the fienal photo taken of the beloved betty white. look at her. a legend. >> investigators make a breakthrough in an historic mystery. closer to answering the question "who betrayed ann frank?" b why does walgreens offer prescription copays as low as zero dollars? ♪ so you won't have a medicacare in the world. ♪ fill your medicare prescriptions with walgreens and save. some of my best memories growing up were cooking with mom. so when she moved in with us, a new kitchen became part of our financial plan. ♪ ♪ find a northwestern mutual advisor at it's my 4:05, the-show-must-go-on,
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>> as the senate prepares to begin a contentious debate over two voting rights bills today, republican leaders, including kevin mccarthy and mitch mcconnell, are among many republicans receiving backlash for their tributes to dr. martin luther king, jr while also blocking the new voting rights legislation. democratic senator kirs skirs, who says she will not vote to change the filibuster in order to pass those voting bills, also taking heat for her tweet commemorating dr. king. joining us now is host of don lemon tonight and what i say to my friends about racism. don, this is casey hunt. >> great to meet new person. >> great to meet you. welcome to cnn. >> it's great to be on with you. >> are you okay with each other? >> big fan. >> fantastic. i'm so glad that we're all here together. so don? >> yes. >> everyone likes to quote dr.
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king? >> always. when it's convenient for them and that's a problem. that was what i struggled with yesterday and i struggled with every year, especially this year cause everyone -- listen. we all want to pay tribute to dr. king especially on the date that we celebrate his legislegacy, right? and so we put things on social immemedia and i struggle with t and everyone puts him when he's standing there in the orator and doing the march orn washington and i said i didn't want to do that this yaear. what i wanted to show that i could do was show him in the trenches, being arrested, having ahis head bashed, right? being threatened, going to jail and those things. and inefvitably you get the politicians, especially the ones in washington now who are blocking the people 's access t the bvoting booth. they're the biggest hypocrites on the plan et because if they
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want to honor the legislacy of king and all the people who fought for civil rights, what they would do is do a carveout for voting rights with the filling buffer. but for some reason, they are mired in tradition and stuck with these rules that are b backwards. and as a former president said, he's a relic. the filibuster has been used to block civil rights legislation forever. and so we need to stop that. just because there is a rule doesn't mean that that rule can't change. the constitution is amended so it's time to amend the rules and protect the most sacred right that we have as americans, and that is the right to vote. >> democrats are going to force them to, it seems, vote on that rule change and as of now they've said no, we're not going to do it. does it mean anything to you that they have to be on the record as saying that? >> it does and it's a quote from
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dr. king from a birmingham jail and he says, i have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the negroes' great stumbling block in the strive to freedom is not the white citizens council or the cku klux claner but the white m moderate who is devoted to order than to justice, who prefers a negative piece, which is the absence of tension, to a positive piece, press the presence of justice, which c constantly says i agree with you but i cannot agree with your actions who believes that he can set the timetable for another man's freedom who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises a ne hegro to wait for a more convenient season. that sounds like the moderates. not now, we can't change the rules because the rules are t tradition. but we're going to block people from the voting and you're supposed to be a democrat who espouses to the ideals of dr. king.
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that's bull bl[beep]. that's bs. and you should be ashamed of yourself. you are a hypocrite. >> i'm glad you read that quote because again, everyone wants to quote dr. king and i don't doubt that everyone admires but they're not giving you the full f picture of what he really stood for and fought for unless you're including that quote right t there. which they conveniently forget. >> and the quote which we have a video of him in 1963 when he was against the filibuster. when he talked about the f filibusters and that the minority use to block the rights of the majority and to keep people from the voting booth and to block civil rights legislation. he talked about the filibuster then and that it was a ridiculous mechanism to keep the minority in charge and to block progress in this country. so you use those quotes, if you want to use a dr. king quote. >> one tweet i did say yesterday
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was not a quote from mlk. it was from senator from hawaii and he said it's important to remember that at the time that while 94% of americans right now see dr. martin luther king, jr as a hero, at the time he wasn't what we would consider popular. he was -- >> not even among african americans. >> and that said so much about how we think about it today. >> because prem -- you look at what happens now with protests, right? when the people who want -- with the people who want to fight for changes in our criminal justice system and people are a little bit nervous about it. are they going too far? are they making us look bad? are they causing trouble? are they causing unrust on the streets? that's similar to what dr. king was doing in that day and the establishment even among african american establishments were uncomfortable with it. they weren't comfortable with a rable rouseer.
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it's good to have rable rouseers and it's good to people push the envelope and for us to evolve and that's what dr. king did. >> good truchblt. >> and people like to quote john liewis as well. >> don, we touch on weighty subjects and it's about a w weighty subject but i'm curious whether or not it makes you smile a bit. so watch this. this is a tv host talking about vaccines. >> bl[beep]. [ speaking foreign language ] >> that was not on don lemon tonight by way. >> i was going to say it could have been. i've gotten criticized for
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saying we should stop listening to the people and they should not be part of polite society. you cannot expect -- by the way, he is all of us. i want to say you -- i'm mad at hell and i'm not taking it anymore. he's right. he's right. listen. the unvaccinated people in the u.s. are key to the reason that coronavirus, the variants are emerging, and that the reason i'm looking at the stats from the cdc and the reason why it's reprelicating and mutating. it's because of unvaccinated people who are doing their own research online. i can't do my own research better than experts who devoted their lives to medical and scientific research. when i theyell people they s well, i've been doing my own research and last week i was in miami. i said how did iyou get to miam? i flew. that's science. so if you don't believe in science, why didn't you walk? right? because i can't always follow
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the science. that's the reason that you don't have polio and the reason we don't see polio cases and why we don't see small pox cases is because your parents had the wherewithal and the sense to get you vaccinated as a child. >> told or they had to? >> that you had to because what? we had to start doing things for the greater good of society and not for i diots who think that they can do their own research or that they've above the law and they can break the rules. australia. novak djokovic. australia said no, no, no, no. we're going to look at the greater good of everyone in our society and you're not part of that. we don't care that you're the number one tennis player in the world and good on them because they are keeping their population and their citizens, people who want to be good citizens, they're keeping them healthy and safe and alive and not for someone who thinks that they can come in, do their own research, get covid, spread it to other people, not wear masks, like the guy, the tv presenter
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said. and then infect all of us and keep all of us in the house. or from going to work or from being able to do what they want to do. has it. i'm done. >> i doubt that's true. i doubt you're off of your soap box. >> you have a show tonight. >> i'm flying to washington today. i'm going to yell "that's science." >> it's true and hopefully, everybody on the plane is wearing one of these. >> they have to. by law. >> so great to see you. >> by the way, we should not be surprised that the mayor of new york gets heckled. that's what new york city is. i walked out in new york and someone said don lemon, you. and the next person says don lemon. i love you. >> that's science. >> and they're right. >> thanks for coming in. >> thank you. it's always good to see you >> you can watch don's show tonight and every night at 10:00 p.m. north korea pulling off multiple
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last month alone. the latest provocative move happened monday. poyongyang claims the precise targ was hit after tirest firin two short-range ballistic missiles. what is the biden administration going to do about these la launches? they're in violation of multiple security councils resolutions. ivan, what do we know? >> well, casey, launches of missiles, clearly north korea showing its displeasure to the rest of the world. we may be going back into one of those periods again where it uses missile launches to demonstrate that. the state department has c
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condemned this, saying it's a violation of u.n. security council resolutions but no expert i've talked to expect that that kind of condemnation will stop north korea from its missile-launching spree. >> patriotic declarations, announcements of fresh missile launches. north korea has launched six ballistic missiles in less than two weeks. on january 5th, what poyongyang calls a hypersonic missile, another on january 11th, two ballistic missiles fired from a train on january 14th, and two tactical guided missiles fired early monday morning. weapons tests that appear to be part of a plan laid out by north korean leader kim yungun more than a year ago. >> he basically ordered his people to make the type of
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weapons that he thinks will make north korea become a very advanced nuclear power. >> reporter: weapons experts say some of this month's launches didn't break any new ground. but north korea also fired this new hypersonic missile, which at first revealed to the public last year and the south korean military confirmed it flew at 10 times the speed of sound. >> what north korea is calling a hypersonic missile is really a ballistic missile at the base when it launches and then on the top it has a maneuverable war head, which means it can move in a way that is unkpexpected. >> reporter: this type of missile poses a new potential threat to the u.s. and its allies in asia. >> they're able to launch a missile in one direction and essentially turn a corner, which makes it very difficult for radar systems and interceptors to track it.
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>> reporter: the latest missile launches, a reminder of the flurry of missile tests north korea conducted back in 2017. they sparked a war of words between poyongyang and th then-president donald trump. >> rocket man should have been handled a long time ago. >> reporter: eventually trump and kim staged three historic face-to-face meetings, and a lot of letter-writing. >> we've had, what? during trump administration by my count 27 letters exchanged between kim youngun and donald trump. kim, wants that kind of attention. >> reporter: former diplomat advises the biden administration to try harder to engage with the north korean regime. >> otherwise, we are going to return to the bad, old days of 2017, which is really a crisis atmosphere. >> reporter: so far, poyongyang has rejected multiple u.s.
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requests for talks. in the mean time, the biden administration imposed sanctios for the first time last week in response to north korean missile launches. targeting north korean and russian nationals, as well as a russian company accused of helping poyongyang's weapons program. north korea accused washington of gangster-like lodgic and launched two missiles the very same day. clearly, the north korean government does not want to be ignored. >> a final piece here. north korea never wealthy, has been going through tough economic times because it's shut its boarder almost completely throughout the covid pandemic and it's had low crop yields with this terrible flooding and the government has even admitted that it's having food shortages. but that has not stopped it from investing scarce money and resources into its weapons programs. back to you. >> ivan watson.
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thanks very much for that r report. here is what else to watch t today. >> i've seen this bemustovie be. >> you have? >> sure. this is the part where all the lost and the hero searches for hope and a reminder that she has the replacement costs and that her home will be rebuilt regardless of her limits or if the cost of materials has gone up. didn't ruin the eng, did i? >> yeah, you did. b >> this morning, devastating images from tonga after the catastrophic volcano eruption. the latest on the damage and the search for survivors. plus, betty white's final pictures revealed. b althier starts when excuses end. what? it's too windy. right now at cvs, get $10 in extrabucks rewards when you spend $30 on select wellness support products.
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then recalibrated the camera attached to my glass so my safety systems still work. who knew that was a thing?! >> woman: safelite has service i can trust. >> singers: ♪ safelite repair, safelite replace. ♪ time now for the five things to know for your new day. >> bipartisan u.s. senators met in monday as russia amass t troops. it was just announced that the secretary of state is set to travel to the ukraine this week as well. >> the latest setback for abortion providers in texas. a federal appeals court sent a legal challenge posed by clinics back to the state supreme court for resolution.
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this could significantly delay any decision on the six-week abortion ban that went in effect on september 1st. >> former new york city mayor announcing he will not be running for governor of new york. instead, he says he'll devote every fiber of his being to fighting inequality in the state of new york. >> she's on top of the car. she's going in. heurry up. >> a woman whose car plunged into icy waters in ottawa, canada, rescued but what awould to pear to take a self ie. she's been charged with dangerous operation of a motor vehicle. and the assistant to beloved late actress betty white sharing one of white's final photos to commemorate what would have been her 100th birthday. she believes the photo of white looking vibrant and well was taken on december 20th, just 11
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days before she passed away. looks beautiful those those stories all day op cnn and and don't forget to download the five things podcast every morning. coming up next, who betrayed anne frank to the nazis? that question has lingered for more than 70 years and it may now have an answer. ♪ fill your medicare prescriptions with walgreens and save.
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who betrayed anne frank? this has been a lingering questions for decades since they were outed to the nazis in 1944. now a new cold case investigation using modern techniques has identified a surprise suspect, a jewish notary named arnold van den bergh. researchers say he probably gave them up to save his family. the book is by rosemary sullivan and she joins us now. this is fascinating. talk to us about the significance of this discovery. you don't say it was definitely van den bergh, but you talk about the evidence that points to it and the significance of that discovery. >> well, as you say, it's been 77 years since the arrest, and
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so to be absolutely definite is very difficult. we have circumstantial evidence, but it indicates that an anonymous note that was given to otto frank after he returned from the auschwitz camp, having lost his entire family, the anonymous note identified van den bergh as the person who had given over addresses of jews in hiding. i think that's important. van den bergh did not know who might be at those addresses, indeed even if people were still in hiding at those addresses. but he used that list, it would seem, to gain his freedom and the freedom of his family. and one of the significant points is there was never any indication that van den bergh was in a concentration camp. >> so the sense is that essentially he decided to do this in order to avoid that fate? i mean, what more do we know about him as a person and the situation he was in?
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>> well, you know, he was a prominent jewish notary. that's a very distinguished position. he was a collector of 17th and 18th century art, and as such, had friends among naturalized germans in holland. he was working for the refugees who were fleeing germany up to the war, and he used every means that was available to him from the nazi hierarchy, they had special spheres or stamps you could use to delay deportation. they had a status where you could prove that you weren't jewish and get the j taken off of your passport. in the end, when it finally came to being completely cornered, it would seem that addresses that he had obtained, either from the jewish council, from the resistance, or perhaps he had
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bought from as they call themselves jew hunters, he used those addresses to protect himself and his family. >> historically people should know he had been a member of a so-called jewish council, which were institutions that were used by the nazis to oppress the jews. they formed these councils of jews and say, unless you help us govern the jews in the city or country, we will kill you or your family. so it was a means of oppression, a diabolical means of oppression there. people need to take that into consideration when they look at the totality of this. i'm curious, why is it so important 77 years later to get these answers to what happened to anne frank? >> you know, because it's in a much larger context. first of all, anne frank's story, while it is a universal story, it is also a dutch story. and so the people who initiated this investigation wanted the
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dutch to face the complexity of the second world war. but furthermore, i think it's a kind of warning. you watch otto frank, who is such a remarkable human being, in '33, leaving germany after a dinner party in which a friend has heard that hitler has been elected chancellor, let's see what the man can do. then you see the constant use of propaganda and lies and rhetoric and national violence building to war. so war is looked at in this context as what it really is, not heroic, good against bad or whatever, but in fact the daily grind of fear and violence. >> and suffering. rose marry sullivan, it is fas sat s fascinating. thank you so much for joining us this morning.
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