tv State of the Union With Jake Tapper and Dana Bash CNN April 10, 2022 9:00am-10:00am PDT
gone. >> who will get the first interview with will smith and chris rock? >> you can. tonight is the premiere of an extraordinary film about anthony bourdain. "roadrunner" premieres tonight. state of the union starts right now. barbaric tax. discriminate attacks on ukraine as demands for justice grow. >> we're going to keep ratcheting up the pain for putin. >> as russia brings its top general in for strategy. i'll talk to liz cheney and former cia director david petraeus, next. and refugee crisis. as millions flee the violence in
ukraine, the world comes together to help. an ambitious new pledge for refugees. new chief ursula von der leyen and hugh evans. plus, why they fight. across ukraine, reminders of old russian oppression are fueling today's fight. >> we understand the danger that may happen with this if putin continues. >> what ukrainians remember and how it's drooiving their fight. my special report from ukraine, ahead. ukranians on the ground are bracing for more war. after the defeat in the battle of kyiv, russian president putin
has brought in a new general to help, dvornikov. you can see it to the east of kyiv. it's a new prospect that even more brutality after the attack on bucha and the train station, which targeted 50 people trying to leave the region, including children, yesterday president zelenskyy met with u.k. prime minister boris johnson to help. prime minister johnson pledged more ukranian equipment for ukraine, including 800 next generation anti-tank weapons and javelin anti-missiles, and other aides such as body armor,
helmets and night fishing goggles. joining us now, security adviser jake sullivan. jake, thank you for joining us. at least 50 civilians were killed friday at that railroad station packed with evacuees trying to flee, trying to get here to where i am in lviv. they used a bn attack on a clusr of people. does that constitute war crimes? >> it absolutely constitutes war crimes. in fact, president biden was well out in front of most of the world in declaring that what russia was doing and what vladimir putin was authorizing here were war crimes.
we have seen the target, the murder of people, the depravity. that's why we are working so hard, not just on long-term accountability, but in the short term, russupplies to ukraine an liberate themselves from the russian brutality. >> in addition to slaughtering in bucha, we're seeing entire neighborhoods wiped off the face of the earth. the united nations defines genocide as, quote, any of the following acts intended to destroy in whole or in part a national, ethical or religious group including, quote, killing members of the group, end quote, causing serious and bodily mental harm to members of the group. i understand this is up to authorities and there is a process in place. but in your opinion, how is this not genocide?
>> look, in my opinion, the label is less important than the fact that these acts are cruel and criminal and wrong and evil and need to be responded to decisively, and that is what we're doing. we're doing that not just by supporting international organizations and gathering evidence to hold the perpetrators to the highest levels accountable. we're doing it by providing sophisticated weapons to the ukrainians that are making a major difference on the battlefield. you mentioned in your opening comments that ukraine won the battle of kyiv, russia lost the battle of kyiv. russia retreated. they did so because they faced a brave and stiff ukranian resistance, but that resistance was armed with american weapons and western weapons that the united states of america delivered. and we are proud of that, we will continue to do that, we will continue to take every step we possibly can to help the ukrainians succeed on the battlefield and to improve their
position at the negotiating table and to make the russians pay also through increasing costs of sanctions for what they are doing to the people of ukraine. >> let me ask you a more theoretical question here, jake, because i'm not advocating for any specific action one way or another, but i do have to wonder how the international community, including the u.s., decides what kind of wholesale killing necessitates direct military intervention and what kind doesn't. because every year on international holocaust remembrance day, i read these statements from world leaders that say never again. what exactly are they saying never again to? >> well, the united states and the international community are not going to stand by while russia does what it does. and we haven't stood by. in fact, before this war even began, we indicated that russia was planning to engage in acts of brutality against stocivilia.
we declassified intelligence that this is not just the random acts of soldiers or units, this is a plot by the kremlin. we floated hundreds of dollars of military equipment just last year to the ukrainians so they could fight back. and we continue to do that. the speed and scope and effort to arm and equip the ukrainians is unprecedented in recent memory, and it is something that the united states has led the effort to do. and the size and impact of the sanctions on a major economy like russia is likewise unprecedented. so this is not a story of anyone standing by. we are taking aggressive action in an effort to both help the ukrainians succeed on the battlefield and help the ukrainians have the best possible position at the negotiating table. we will continue to do that, we will continue to rally the world in that regard, and the united
states will play the key role it has played thus far in the days and weeks ahead. >> cnn has learned that putin has appointed a new military commander to oversee this russian attack and invasion on ukraine, director aleksandr dvornikov. he is known for his brutality when he led the invasion in syria. what does this tell you about putin's strategy moving forward? >> first, no appointment of any general can erase the fact that russia has already faced a strategic failure in ukraine. they thought they were going to be able to conquer the capitol city and take other major cities with little resistance, that they would in fact be welcomed with open arms. what we've learned in the several weeks of this war is ukraine will never be subjugated to russia. it doesn't matter when general president putin tries to
recruit. but this particular general has a resume that includes a brutality against civilians in other theaters in syria, and we can expect more of the same in this theater. but it's not something we need to anticipate looking forward. as you've noted, we've already seen it and we can expect more of it. this general will just be another author of crimes and brutality against ukranian civilians, and the united states, as i said before, is determined to do all that we can to support the ukrainians as they resist him and they resist the forces that he commands. >> so this week the european union announced a ban on all russian coal imports. some countries such as poland just a few miles away and lithuania have restricted not just coal but natural gas. germany, of course, says it's going to take time to phase out their reliance on russian energy. can the sanctions campaign
against russia ever truly be effective, ever truly deter putin as long as putin is making hundreds of billions of dollars from its energy sector? >> well, first, jake, as you know, president biden issued an executive order banning all russian oil, gas and coal from the united states. the united states will not contribute one dollar from those three imports to the russian war machine. when he did so, he also noted that we are in a privileged position. we are a net energy exporter. we can absorb the cost of that. it is a different fact for the europeans who are far more reliant on russian energy than the united states is. so we're working overtime to wean europe off of russian energy. we are surging exports of u.s. liquefied natural gas to europe so they can reduce their reliance on russian gas, and
we're taking steps to work with them to turn down russian oil as well. we are looking to continue to make progress on it, but in the meantime, we should not underestimate the impact of the sanctions that have already been imposed to include a double-digit hit to russian gdp this year and to include russia falling out of the ranks of the world's major economies by the end of this year. the pain is real, the impact is real, but yes, there is always more that we can do, and as we announced this past week, we are continuing to try to ratchet up the pressure on the russian economy. >> jake, a lot of us covering this war are keeping the eye on the black sea. a week ago the british minister of defense sounded the alarm about russian mines that are drifting in the black sea, ones that nato countries, romania and turkey had to detonate to make sure those mines didn't kill
romanians or turks. what would nato do if one of those mines killed people from russian countries? >> president biden has been absolutely clear since before this conflict began that the united states is prepared to work with its allies to defend every inch of nato territory, that means every inch, including if a mine ended up in a turkish area and there was loss of life. we are committed to taking action to ensure that russia is held accountable for it. in addition, i might point out that we have been working with our partners to try to provide the ukrainians with coastal defense systems that they can use to neutralize the threat from the russians in the black sea, and you've just heard from the british who have a particular version of a coastal defense system, that they intend to supply that to the ukrainians. that's something that we, the united states, work closely with the british on, and it will help
the ukrainians in their fight. >> jake sullivan, thank you so much for your time. i really appreciate it. coming up, could the u.s. be doing something differently to end the war in ukraine? we're going to talk to republican congresswoman liz cheney, a member of the house armed services committee about that. plus on the january 6 committee in which she serves. plus, prime minister justin trudeau will be here on brutality and the russian crisis. stay with us. . ...then we got to work. we replaced his windshield and installed new wipers to protect his new glass, while he finished his meeting. let safelite come to you. >> man: looks great. thank you. >> tech: my pleasure. that's service on your time. schedule now. >> singers: ♪ safelite repair, safelite replace. ♪
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torture of civilians. what can be done to stop vladimir putin's forces. joining me is republican congresswoman liz cheney, member of the house armed services committee. congresswoman, thanks for joining us. you just heard my conversation with national security adviser jake sullivan. were you satisfied with what you heard? what might you be doing differently? >> thanks for having me. no, i wasn't satisfied with what i heard. i think it's crucially important that the united states be clear that we are absolutely committed to zelenskyy's victory. we should not be talking about, as jake sullivan did just now, improving zelenskyy's position at the negotiating table. this is about defeating russian forces in ukraine. it's about much more than ukraine. we've got to be moving much faster, much more quickly, recognizing that the ukrainians now, given what they've been able to do and how long they've been able to fight and what they've been able to inflict upon the russian forces, they need advanced weaponry. we need to be thinking about providing them with tanks, with artillery, with armored vehicles.
we need to be doing much more and more quickly. there should be no question that this is about getting to a negotiation or pressuring zelenskyy to negotiate. this is about defeating russian forces in ukraine. >> so you would like to see more offensive weapons, tanks and planes, as opposed to missile defense systems, antitank missiles, antiaircraft missiles which is what the uk has focused on. >> i think we need to do both. we need to do everything that zelenskyy says he needs at this point given the just unbelievable battle that they have put up, the extent to which the ukrainians have demonstrated that they are not going to be in a position where they allow the russian forces to make the kinds of gains putin thought he would be making. i think it's really important for us to be very clear with respect both to the kinds of advanced weaponry, the kinds of
offensive weaponry we need to be providing them, also in terms of what's happening in the black sea, the sea of azov. the united states has a right to be there. it's international waters. we ought to be doing much more to help keep the shipping lanes open, to ensure that the ukrainians are not continuing to suffer from the kind of economic blockade that the russians are attempting to impose now. i think there are a whole range of additional things we could be doing and should be doing immediately. >> let's turn to that horrific missile strike on the ukrainian train station. more than 50 people, including five children, killed. they were just trying to flee, they're trying to flee the war and come here to lviv where i am. they were trying to escape and they were targeted and killed. what was your reaction when you saw the new images? are they war crimes? do you consider this all genocide? >> i think this clearly is genocide. you asked exactly the right questions. i think that europe needs to understand and grapple with the
fact that you've got a genocidal campaign, the first kind of horrific kind of genocidal campaign that we have seen certainly in recent decades. i think that also europeans need to understand that they're funding that genocidal campaign. i understand the economic consequences to countries in western europe if they were to impose a kind of oil and gas embargo that the u.s. has imposed against russian oil and gas, but they need to do it. we need to do everything we can to increase our own domestic production to help make sure we can supply them with as much as possible. they need to understand, every single time, every single day they're continuing to import russian oil and gas, they're funding putin's genocide in ukraine. >> do you think that there is a point at which the united states and nato countries, seeing what's happened here, need to consider direct military intervention?
>> i think that the ukrainians have demonstrated an incredible ability and courage and bravery and that what we need to be doing right now is doing much more, much faster to provide them with the equipment that they need. i think, though, we also have to understand and recognize this isn't just about ukraine. putin has made clear his desire to go farther. he's made clear that he's got ambitions with respect to the baltics, with respect to countries like moldova. i think the west and nato has got to understand that putin's defeat in ukraine is a fundamental national security interest for us. that does not mean in the near term, it does not mean for calling for u.s. forces on the ground in ukraine. but it does mean ensuring that we're providing the ukrainians every single think they need, everything they ask for. we shouldn't be in a position, for example, where we say we
don't believe -- oz our pentagon has said, they don't believe the ukrainians need the migs. if the ukrainians are asking us for weaponry, we need to make sure we're doing everything possible to get it to them. >> president zelenskyy has posed some baffling and challenging existential questions about the existence of the united nations, united nations security council, even nato. these organizations established, many in the wake of world war ii, to make sure what happened in world war ii doesn't happen again and he's been questioning whether or not they actually are effective in any way. what have been your thoughts on that? >> i think you have to make a very clear distinction between nato, which i think is the most effective and successful military alliance in history, period, and the united nations which i think has caused real questions about whether or not it can accomplish or is accomplishing any of the objectives for which it was created.
when you have russia sitting on the security council, when you have nations on the human rights council -- and i know russia has been recently removed, but i think the united nations, i think it has demonstrated it is not the kind of effective entity people hoped it would be when it was created. i think nato is very different. nato has now been unified. nato has now worked to make sure that we are coming to the defense of our nato allies and we're doing everything that we can do. we need to do more, as i said, to help to support ukraine and help support the ukrainian people. >> there are many ways that one can fight to protect democracy. let's turn from the military way it's being fought here to the efforts to protect democracy in the united states. you're the vice chair of the january 6th committee. "the new york times" reporting this morning that your committee has concluded that you have
enough evidence to make a criminal referral for president trump to the justice department for obstructing an official proceeding and for conspiracy to defraud the united states. is that true? do you have enough evidence to refer trump for criminal charges? >> well, we have not made a decision about referrals on the committee. i think it is absolutely the case, it's absolutely clear that what president trump was doing, what a number of people around him were doing, that they knew it was unlawful and they did it anyway. i think you certainly saw that in the decision issued by judge carter a few weeks ago where he concluded that it was more likely than not that the president of the united states was engaged in criminal activity. i think what we have seen is a massive and well-organized and well-planned effort that used multiple tools to try to overturn an election. you've seen just in the last few days a plea agreement from one
of the leaders of the proud boys which lays out in really chilling detail the extent to which violence was planned, the extent to which the message that went out on december 19th about the planning -- about the rally in washington -- and don't forget donald trump tweeted out that message, be there, be wild, that the day after that message the organization and the planning started, and that they understood, that they knew they were going to attempt to use violence to try to stop the transfer of power. that is the definition of an insurrection and it is absolutely chilling. >> just to be clear, you've seen this evidence and you believe president trump committed these two crimes? >> what i've just quoted to you is a public document. it is the plea agreement in the donohoe case. everybody can look at it. i would highly recommend everybody does look at it. it's the statement of offense in that plea agreement.
the committee has obviously been focused very much, has gotten a tremendous amount of testimony and documents that i think very, very clearly demonstrate the extent of the planning and the organization and the objective and the objective was absolutely to try to stop the count of electoral votes, to try to interfere with that official proceeding. it's absolutely clear that they knew what they were doing was wrong, they knew it was unlawful and they did it anyway. >> there is a dispute on your committee, as i don't need to tell you, some people feel like a referral, which actually has no legal weight, would only taint the process under which attorney general merrick garland might act. some feel that that's the wrong argument, that right is right and the committee has the evidence it has. where do you come down? >> there's not really a dispute on the committee. the committee is working in a really collaborative way to
discuss these issues as we are with all of the issues we're addressing and we'll continue to work together to do so. i wouldn't characterize there being a dispute on the committee. i think it is the single-most collaborative committee on which i've ever served. i'm very proud of the bipartisan way in which we're operating. i'm confident that we will work to come to agreement on all of the issues that we're facing. i wouldn't say it's accurate right now to say there's a dispute on this issue. >> former president trump's daughter and senior adviser ivanka trump testified in front of your committee for eight hours this week. was her testimony helpful? did she shed any new light on the crucial hours while the attack was under way? >> certainly her testimony was helpful as has been the testimony of many hundreds of others who have appeared in front of the committee. i would just note that it really tells you why the fact that dan scavino and peter navarro have completely refused to cooperate
with the committee, why that was so clearly contemptuous, why we were right to move to contempt charges against both of them. there's absolutely no privilege in this country that is an absolute blanket immunity from having to come and testify, having to come and talk to a congressional committee, particularly under these circumstances. so the committee is going to continue to work to get evidence and testimony. again, we're incredibly grateful. i've been incredibly grateful and frankly moved by the many, many people who have come before us because they know it's their patriotic responsibility and duty to tell us about what happened and to make sure it never happens again. >> house republican leader kevin mccarthy is in the region, i think he's in poland. he just issued a statement in support of democracy and the
individuals fighting for a free and democratic ukraine. i'm wondering if you feel there's any disconnect there given the fact he has not exactly been supportive of your efforts to get to the bottom of the attempt to overturn the election in the united states. >> well, what i would say is that what's happening today in ukraine is a reminder that democracy is fragile, that democracy must be defended and that each one of us in a position to do so has an obligation to do so. clearly, i think leader mccarthy failed to do that, failed to put his oath to the constitution ahead of his own personal political gains, and i think that at the end of the day, each one of us is responsible for our own actions and activity. but if we don't stand for our constitution, if we don't stand for democracy, if we don't stand for freedom, if we forget that our oath to our constitution is an oath to a document, it's not an oath to an individual, we've got to always remember that or
our democracy is in peril. >> all right. congresswoman liz cheney, always good to have you on the show, appreciate it. >> thanks, jake. good to be with you. thank you. millions of refugees have escaped ukraine this week in a new effort to help meet the needs they have both outside ukraine and inside. the head of the eu and canadian prime minister justin trudeau will meet us next.
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welcome back to "state of the union." i'm jake tapper live in lviv, ukraine. this weekend world leaders, celebrities and artists came together to try to help millions of refugees from ukraine and in ukraine through global citizens stand up for ukraine summit. earlier i spoke with leaders of the summit. joining me, canadian prime
minister justin trudeau, european commission president ursula von der leyen and global citizen co-finder hugh evans. thanks one and all for being here. hugh, let me start with you. you organized this global campaign to help the millions of ukrainians forced to flee their homes because of this horrific war. how much money did this event raise and how is it going to be used? >> well, thank you, jake, so much for having us. we should start by saying this was truly a team effort. we had phenomenal people from around the world including leaders in the music industry that came together to really rally the world, to call on world leaders to commit billions of dollars for refugee relief. i'm so proud to say that the pledging event secured over $10.1 billion u.s. dollars including $4.6 million in cash grants that will support the people of ukraine as well as those who have to flee and become refugees in the surrounding areas. this is going to provide access to food security, clean drinking water, housing, education, and ultimately provisions that those who had to flee this devastating
conflict need most. >> i've met some of these displaced people, and they certainly can use that assistance. prime minister trudeau, canada, as i don't need to tell you, has the third largest ukrainian population in the world behind only ukraine and russia. do you think canada feels a special responsibility to resettle as many refugees as it can because of that, and how many have you taken in so far, how many do you expect total? >> canada has always been a country to welcome in refugees. i'm standing, jake, in front of -- a museum, but a church built in the canadian prairies over 100 years ago. we have deep connections to ukraine, and that's why we've created rapid pathways for people to come from europe or directly from ukraine to canada either permanently or for just a few years with work visas, student visas that are going to allow them to get their feet
back under them, to contribute to the rebuilding of ukraine once this war is over and won and that is our focus as well, making sure that putin loses this war that is completely irresponsible, completely mistaken and having an impact not just on ukraine but around the world. >> and how many refugees do you think you can take in from ukraine? >> we've already taken in over 14,000 and we're continuing to do many, many more. the number of canadians, of ukrainian canadians, canadians of all backgrounds opening their homes welcoming people fleeing the violence -- when i was in warsaw a few weeks ago, i heard from people who don't want to go too far from their husbands, their families back in ukraine but are also looking at, if this does go on as long as it might, they need solace and a secure
place to go and canada will always be there for as many as choose to come to canada. >> president von der leyen, europe, as you know, has already taken in more than 4 million ukrainian refugees. this crisis we know could potentially drag on for years. does the european union have a plan in place to house and care for all these people for how ever long might be necessary? >> yes, absolutely. it is amazing to see the open hearts and the open doors of the european people mainly in the front line countries like poland, hungary, czechoslovakia, rom romania, just to name a few. they are very willing to take these refugees in, more than 4 million. this pledging event today was so
important, but, of course, there are funds from the european union, structural funds, $17 billion, that are there to accommodate these more than 4 million refugees. yesterday i was in kyiv. i saw president zelenskyy and i promised to him that we're going to take good care of the refugees until they can return safely home. that is very important, to rebuild their country. but there is also 6.5 million internally displaced people in ukraine who urgently need help. i'm very grateful that the pledging event today was also organized for them because they need support through the ukrainian authorities. i'm very glad 1.8 billion euros will go to ukraine refugees in ukraine. this is very important for the ukrainian authorities, too. >> and president von der leyen, you made a point of visiting bucha this week to see the aftermath of the atrocities firsthand there. you also met with president zelenskyy in kyiv.
he told you what the europeans are doing is, quote, not enough. what did you say to him, and did what you saw in bucha drive home the need for europe to do more, to do everything in its power to help ukraine? >> yes. president zelenskyy was very grateful for what has happened already, what we have done already, but he's right, this war is going on, we have to do more, be it sanctions on russia. i'm very grateful that we have so many partners, canada, for example, strongly supporting us with the sanctions against russia to really dry out putin's war chest. we have to deliver arms, weapons so the ukrainian people can defend themselves. it's really urgent right now. a lot has been done but more has to be done. as i said, we have to support the refugees in ukraine, but also very important we have to financially support ukraine. yesterday i could deliver 1 billion euros directly for the ukrainian government, but more, of course, has to come there, too. whatever is necessary is being done, and we know we're in for a
long haul here to fight putin's aggression, to defend the integrity and sovereignty of ukraine. but also afterwards, after that war when ukraine will have won that war, to reconstruct ukraine and rebuild this country. >> prime minister trudeau, you've seen the horrific images coming out of bucha and other ukrainian towns. you know on friday a russian missile strike on that railway station in eastern ukraine killed dozens of civilians who were just trying to escape, trying to get to where i am in lviv. president zelenskyy says russia is committing genocide here in ukraine. do you agree? >> the images are horrific. the stories we're hearing, we have been hearing from ukraine canadians, but through social media as well of what's going on. it is clear putin is systemically targeting civilians, whether it's hospitals, train stations or
maternity wards. this is one of the reasons why canada was one of the first countries to call on the international criminal court to look into putin's war crimes. we're providing investigative support, we're building up the case for people to recognize that not only was this a terrible mistake to violate the sovereignty of another country and create massive global instability that's impacting energy and food prices around the world, but it is also a series of war crimes that putin is deliberately committing that he needs to be held to account for. >> is it genocide, though? >> those are the things that will be determined. obviously the messages we're seeing, the stories of what russian soldiers are doing, not just the murder of civilians, but the systematic use of sexual violence and rape to destabilize and have the greatest negative impact on the ukrainian people as possible is absolutely
unforgivable and unacceptable. that's why the global community is going to and is responding so strongly. >> president von der leyen, you gave zelenskyy a questionnaire to fill out in order to start the application process for ukraine to join the eu. that's a process that typically takes years, as you know. you told him you think it could be, quote, a matter of weeks. how important is membership as ukraine fights for its survival? could ukraine be part of the eu by the end of the year, and what would that do in terms of helping ukraine defend itself? >> for ukraine, the most important thing is to decide themselves what they want to do in the future and how they want to shape their country and they want to join the european union. this is normally a process over years indeed. and yesterday we did an important step forward, that is this questionnaire which forms the basis for the information we have to then form an opinion
whether i can, as a commission president, recommend the candidate status to the so-called council. so it sounds technical, but it's a very important step forward. yesterday somebody told me, you know, when our soldiers are dying, i want them to know that their children will be free and be part of the european union. so there's a lot of hope in ukraine that they belong to our european family without any question and, therefore, they are in an extraordinary situation where we have to take unusual steps. one thing is clear for me: after this war when ukraine will be rebuilt, when we support ukraine in reconstructing this country, this will be accompanied by reforms. it is an extraordinary way to reshape the country and to go down the path towards the urine
-- european union. we've done an important step yesterday. >> mr. evans, this does not obviously end with one big event. these refugees will need help for weeks and months, years to come. what can everyday people, our viewers right now, what can they do to help? >> well, i firstly want to thank everyone who contributed to the pledging event today. to secure over $10.1 billion in commitments was extraordinary, including over $4.6 billion in direct grants for the ukrainian people and for the refugees in the surrounding countries. right now we need citizens all around the world to use their voice and encourage world leaders to continue to step up. this is a marathon, not a sprint. if you can make a donation, go to forukraine.com today and start making a donation on behalf of your family, your friends, your community. all of us can do something to support the people of ukraine. all of us can stand up for ukraine. >> thanks to all three of you. really appreciate your efforts. congratulations on the successful fund-raiser.
we appreciate it very much. >> thank you, jake. >> thank you. >> thank you so much. vladimir putin has a new general to oversee his barbaric invasion of ukraine. what can we learn from that. general david petraeus on the latest next. your shipping manager left to “find themself.” leaving you lost. you need to hire. i need indeed. indeed you do. indeed instant match instantly delivers quality candidates matching your job description. visit indeed.com/hire
as russian troops roll their tanks to eastern ukraine, ukraine's foreign minister says in just days that area will resemble the front lines of world war ii. retired four star general, former cia director david petraeus is here to help us understand this all. general, thanks for joining us. a top ukrainian military official says the russians are making final preparations for what he called a massive breakthrough in eastern ukraine. it seems from what we understand from what general milley said this land is more open, less wooded which i guess would
undermine the successful ukrainian tactics for the battle of kyiv which were more guerrilla in tactics. what are you expecting next? >> it will be quite a fight. let's review what happened over the course of this really quickly. what we've seen initially the main effort was kyiv and so you saw the column that came down from there and the other one that came over here, there were also cities up here, chernihiv and sumy and essentially the ukrainians stopped them cold and then started to counterattack and then the russians withdraw all these forces like that. so that campaign is over, the ukrainians won the battles of kyiv, chernihiv and sumy. they were also trying to get to odesa, that's the major port on the black sea, they got stopped cold at mykolalv. now the ukrainians are counterattacking down there. so the focus is the donbas and that is this area here. this is what was controlled originally by the separatists right here.
you still have the battle of mariupol going on, there's still three areas in which there is resistance that the russians have to deal with, but once they deal with that you will see these forces come like this and then you will see the ones that are being pushed in to the east of kharkiv and coming down here. these little salients that you can see. what they want to do is to encircle, if they can, the ukrainian forces that have been fighting along essentially the front lines of the donbas, which is almost a world war i kind of situation with trenches. i've been there. i was there several years ago, and you're right, this is much more open, although there are some cities and they are generally road hubs as well. by the way, this is where that terrible bombing of the train station took place that you discussed earlier. so that's what's coming. and we saw this convoy, this has been laid out for everyone, again, satellites picked this
up. they're moving south. so to come back to donbas. what they're doing, they're over here moving along like this and they're coming south and, again, they're going to be pushed in from here. of course, you have a new commander, you have general dvornikov, he is known as the butcher of syria for his brutal campaign that he prosecuted in syria when he was the commander there in 2016. >> and what does it tell you that putin put general aleksandr dvornikov in charge of the invasion now, not just obviously that the previous military efforts failed, but does this mean that it's going to get even worse, even more brutal, even more targeting of civilians? >> i fear that it may. again, the russians were known in syria basically for, quote, depopulating areas, that's what they did to aleppo and other areas. i think we can expect that. we saw, you know, the very first operation taken under him includes that terrible strike on the rail station.
so you're going to see the focus, again, the focus is the southeast. they have said, you know, phase one is over, achieved all our objectives, which actually they withdrew from, again, the main effort originally which was kyiv, they didn't topple the government, replace president zelenskyy with a pro-russian figure. so now they're putting it all into the southeast. what they'd like to do of course is by 9 may they'd like to have a success so that when they celebrate world war ii victory day they can also say that they have now denazified the southeast part of ukraine, that's all they really wanted to do all along. again, they would love to have an area that would be all of this right here plus this ground link to crimea. he could paint that as a success, president putin could and, again, you have this one general that will be in charge of all of this. so the first time you actually have one figure who is the overall commander. he has been involved here, but now everyone else is stepping aside, he is in charge. and, again, i think you can -- you can expect more of what we have seen.
the hallmark of the russian forces so far has been indiscipline, not discipline. it has been violation of the geneva convention and the law of land warfare and so forth. we have seen repeated evidence of that and that's what we're going to see more of i fear in the days and weeks that lie ahead. so we have to do everything we can to provide everything as quickly as possible. >> general david petraeus, thank you so much for helping us understand that better. really appreciate it. >> thanks, jake. some in the west are proposing that ukraine concede the donbas, the eastern territory to russia so as to bring an end to the bloodshed, bring an end to the war, but those experts may have lost sight of one key part of what motivates ukrainians. they know what and who they're fighting against. they know life under russian repression. i want to warn you, some of the images we are about to bring you are graphic and disturbing. >> reporter: only 25 years ago here in lviv, ukraine, this statue cast in bronze was
erected. a ukrainian breaking free of russian bondage. the inscription, to the victims of communist crimes. the statue was built under the initiative of a former soviet prisoner. and there are other such survivors still alive, still sharing their stories. >> they were that small? >> a little bit bigger. >> reporter: vice rector of ukrainian catholic university in ukraine and a former prisoner in a soviet gulag. we met up with him at ukraine's national musician memorial which highlights polish, nazi and soviet oppression. >> this is the place where the tragedy is concentrated, it's a very painful place.
>> reporter: tiny cement cells and tools of deliberate discomfort, even torture by the soviets used against critics and human rights activists such as marinovich who was held in a similar place. >> i was with one other prisoner. >> reporter: in the 1970s he and other activists dared to document and publish soviets humanitarian violations in ukraine. similar to what putin is trying to prevent news and human rights organizations from doing today. >> we were arrested and punished with maximum terms, as most dangerous state criminals. >> this is just because you detailed human rights abuses and wrote about it? that was your crime? >> yes. yes. it was the only crime of mine and, of course, the soviet union questioned everything we wrote. it denied any violations and we were treated as liars.
and for that punished. >> reporter: seven years of hard labor, followed by three more in exile in a small town in kazakhstan. for telling the truth about the brutality of the kremlin. >> mass killings, mass torturing, awful information war against local population. now we see the same technique in the eastern of ukraine. if putin prevails, then the whole ukraine will be intimidated with awful terror. so i'm very afraid of that. >> faulkner once said the past is never dead, it's not even past. the people of ukraine, they don't have to imagine what life would be like under russian rule, the oppression, the cruelty. they've already lived it. the cells that held dissidents
and human rights activists, those cells are still here. >> translator: since 2005 russia officially is the heir of the soviet union and views themselves as a continuation of the soviet union. >> reporter: the museum's historian who curates cruelty for a living has this warning for the world. >> translator: we know from ukrainian history about three genocides against the ukrainian people and history is repeating once again. >> do you think the fact that ukrainians like yourself have been through this, have survived it, have been strong enough to get here gives you -- does that give you any hope that you will be able to get through this? >> i am absolutely sure that ukraine will win this war because we understand the danger that may happen with us if putin wins. >> reporter: he warns he hears echos not only of stalin in what putin says but of past world
leaders who tried to appease stalin in the words that today seek to appease putin. >> he was victorious so the world decided, okay, for security reasons we better preserve peace, but for us it was like leaving seeds in the ground. and now we see that these seeds are blossoming again. seeds of crimes, seeds of communist ideology, communist visions. it's why i now say to the world, please, do not commit the same mistake in order to preserve security to leave putin's seeds in ground again. >> this is all real and this is
all present. at the museum a picture of our local producer's grandfather was on the wall. he had been imprisoned for two years before being sent to a soviet gulag for 25 years. thanks for spending your sunday morning with us. more reporting from ukraine over the next week. the news continues next. this is "gps," the "global public square." welcome to all of you in the united states and around the world, i'm fareed zakaria coming to you live from new york. today on the show, russia's brutal war shifts focus to the east. we will bring you the latest from cnn's team on the ground. then, the case for war crimes.