tv Fareed Zakaria GPS CNN July 31, 2022 10:00am-11:00am PDT
planet. my priority is getting that constitutional change done first. >> prime minister albanese, thanks for being with us and congratulations on your victory. >> thank you, jake. >> fareed zakaria, gps, starts right now. this is gps, the global public square. welcome to all of you in the united states and around the world. i'm fareed zakaria coming to you live from new york. today on the program, those who play with fire perrish by it. that was chinese president xi's warning by it this week to president biden over taiwan. the big question, will speaker pelosi travel to the island after all and risk china's ire. if she does, how might china respond? i will talk to the former chairman of the former joint chiefs of staff, admiral mike mullen about that. the latest efforts in
ukraine's war trying to take back territory from russia. also, one of the biggest business fears about a potential for tsmc. it makes many of the chips in many of your high tech devices. i get a rather interview with the company's chairman and ask him about those fears. but first, here's my take. is it possible that despite all the partisan noise and exploit disbelief, joe biden is actually managing to do something that he promised during his campaign? govern from the center. the evidence is piling up. if the compromise hammered out on tuesday, it will be the largest investment in fighting climate change made by the
federal government while also being the largest deficit reduction package in a decade. it comes on top of the chips and science act which makes research in critical technology. that followed the biggest gun referrals. governing from the center in today's world looks a lot different than it did in the past. when congress came together in the 1980s and '90s to pass big bipartisan bills saving social security, reforming taxes, helping americans with disabilities, reducing air pollution, the authors of the bills were often lie oonized. today they are never to compromise holding out as the other party which is not the
opposition, but the energy as a badge of honor. that's what allows you to fund raise from the most radical side. it was viciously attacked by both parties. the dream act was supported by two of the most ideologically opposed senators. ted kennedy and/or en hatch. the diminution of the 1990s had changed the republican party and soon washington itself. compromise was considered a sellout, even tres son news. trying to revive that, they see he's winning.
if more bipartisan bills get passed and if republicans don't get punished for working across party lines, you can get rewarded for it, that might shift some of the incentives and reduce the toxicity in washington. for the democrats there is a potential up side. they have better position for republicans to become a big ten party. in 2020 biden's victory came from the suburbs and they're more moderate and centrist than the democrats' primary base. they seem to be increasingly turned off on issues such as abortion and guns. in the wake of the supreme court's overturning of roe v. wade, the congressional genetic ballot has moved. being the big party is hard. it means holding coalitions
together, including holding together with people you profoundly disagree. in a country with 330 million people, it is the only way to gain working majorities. some of the greatest democratic accomplishments have taken place in that spirit. franklin roosevelt deferred action on civil rights, tbill clinton had to govern and when barack obama had priorities, he chose to prioritize universal health care over many other important social issues, including gay marriage. sometimes compromise can actually lead to better outcomes. for example, the kennedy/hatch immigration bill was in my view a better plan than either party would have passed because both sides have valid arguments that
were represented. some of joe manchin's arguments have similarly been credible. he's argued against making bills look affordable by shoving in lots of programs but then funding them only for a year in the hope that they will get extended annually. on climate, his view that we should not choke off them until we have enough to replace them might be self-serving, but it also happens to be an accurate read of where we are today. more important, please remember that joe manchin represents a state that dump won by about 40 points in 2020. the wonder surely he is willing to go as far as he has already. if democrats can keep them with him, by definition they are building a big tent, one that could encome pass a majority of
americans. go to cnn.com/fareed to a link to my washington post column this week and let's get started. speaker of the house nancy pelosi, who is second in line for the presidency, is embarking on a tour of the indoe pacific. the burning question is will one of the stops be taiwan? her office released a statement on the trip this morning with some visits listed. taiwan was absent, but it's not the kind of stop she would probably telegraph. china has made it abundantly clear that a visit to taiwan would be seen as a great escalation. beijing said it would take resolute and forceful measures in response. to make sense of this all i want to bring in admiral mike mullen. he was chairman of the joint chiefs of staff and he was the
chief adviser to george w. bush and barack obama. wel welcome, mike. let me ask you first, isn't it likely that nancy pelosi has decided not to go to taiwan? in other words, when the speaker of the house issues a press release where she lists the places she's going, she did say the trip will include those stops. is it possible she might make a surprise visit to taiwan even though she hasn't listed it? >> hi, fareed. it's really good to be with you. i would expect that it is very possible that she could still make a surprise visit, as controversial and as important as this has become, i wasn't surprised it wasn't part of the release schedule. she's in that area of the world. she's been there many, many times in that area of the world. she feels strongly about supporting the kinds of values that we stand for and working
with our friends so, again -- and taiwan has been a friend for a long time, and particularly in a bipartisan way. so it wouldn't surprise me if she went. >> now she was speaker of the house for part of the time you were chairman of the joint chiefs of staff. she's a tough, uncompromising person, wouldn't you say? >> yeah. she's a -- she's a very, very tough woman who knows how to get things done. she cares deeply about the security of our country and the world. she cares deeply about human rights. i don't think she would do anything she hadn't thought through. she understands the stakes. if she decides to go, there is
increased risk with respect to that, but i think she would do that thinking through the possibilities and the risks very, very well. >> how do you think we got to this stage? you know, frankly, it seems surprising to me that the two leading powers of the world have such bad communications that something like this has a price which deep, mutual distrust. it does feel like breakdown of diplomacy. >> i think that's true. that's been over certainly the better part of the decade, as is often the case, fareed. these things happen over time. i think that the sanctions that have been imposed on china were a part of it. i think the new leadership and, quite frankly, the conviction
much xi jinping in china to impose an authoritarian view, not just in the region but around the world, i think the lack of trust, literally where china has stolen the intellectual property. the tensions were pretty high and that has continued in the biden administration and gotten more difficult. xi jinping's had a pretty difficult year. he signed up with putin just beforeolympics. his economy is not growing anywhere what he is expressing. his -- the -- there are many companies who are being shut down. you see the re-emergence of state-owned enterprises. this was supposed to be a big year for him because of the
election in november, which would generate a third term. so there's an awful lot going on internally in china that's not going his way. i would hope that we don't and no one gives xi jinping a relief valve, if you will, or a life ring as he's having so many difficult issues internally over the course of, you know, the last year or two. >> let me ask you about your -- you took a trip to taiwan at the president's behest. you led a delegation mostly from the principles? >> first of all, it was in march. it was right after the ukraine invasion by russia. secondly, it was a bipartisan trip so we had officials from both sides of the aisle, if you will. there were several take aways.
one of which is the president is a very strong leader. very comfortable in their own skin and understands the issues. secondly with our values and focus on democracy and freedom, 75% of whom support independence from china. thirdly, china has been incredibly coercive with taiwan over the last several years. while i very strongly support the policy of the united states, which is strategic ambiguity, i think because of that coercion, whether it's military, economic, otherwise, it's a little out of balance. it's been mostly in balance with over 43 years with the structure we've had, and i think countries like us, takely the u.s., there's room for us to sort of rebalance the scale.
not to change the poll i. the policy is really between taiwan and the mainland. lastly is the impact of what's gone on in hong kong. that has gotten a very sober view in taiwan. there was supposed to be, you know, one -- >> one country -- >> one country, two systems, and that obviously has gone by the way side. there are no discussions that i have, fareed, with respect to ukraine that don't eventually lead to the question about whether china is going to do the same thing in taiwan. president psy is very focused on this. the country is very -- i'm sorry, the taiwan is very isolated from the world. china's dpoone a really good jo of that. a visit by somebody like speaker
pelosi will broaden taiwan's perspective, which i also think is very important. stay with us. when we come back i'm going to ask admiral mullen about the war in ukraine. his views when we come back. th. that can scale across all your clouds... we got that right? yeah, we got that. it's easier to be an innovator. so you can do more incredible things. [whistling] finding the perfect designer isn't easy. but, at upwork, we found her. she's in austin between a fresh bowl of matcha and a fresh batch of wireframes. and you can find her, and millions of other talented pros, right now on upwork.com with best western rewards you get rewarded when you stay on the road and on the go. find your rewards so you can reconnect, disconnect,
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as an expedia member you earn points on top of your airline miles. so you can go see even more of all the world's bubbles. just days after the russian invasion began the city of kherson fell. now ukraine is mounting a major counter offensive to take it back. can it work? joining me again, admiral mike mullen,
the former joint chiefs of staff. mike, let me put it to you first. can this counter offensive really work? more broadly, the ukrainian army
is still out numbered 10 to 1 by the russian army. they have a much larger defense budget. can ukraine actually win this? >> well, i think they can, fareed. it's been amazing what the ukrainian army and the ukrainian people have done so far. and even though outnumbering, seemingly it is more than evenly balanced because of the continued incompetence of the russian army, mostly army, but russian armed forces, which has been from my perspective somewhat stunning. i think, as i look at this, this is from my interactions with my european friends, europe thinks this is existential. they think putin is existential. i think sweden and finland is
just an example of that. i do believe that putin -- that putin still wants all of ukraine and he will continue to fight accordingly. i think he's a little bit out of touch in terms of what's going on on the ground and out of touch how badly his forces have performed, but they're better now than they were early. unrestrained and unopposed, he'll continue to try to take ukraine. this is a long slog of a fight for putin in particular to gain his objectives. i think he has to be stopped. i don't think he's going to stop. i think he has to be forced to settle with respect to how this comes out. and we -- the -- our allies, nato, united states in particular, have to keep providing the kind of arms we have at a rate that will allow the ukrainians to continue to
oppose and sustain the kind of counter offensive that you're talking about. the spirit is there. the will to fight is there. they have to have
that capability. so on balance i think the ukrainians will succeed. i just think it's going to take a long, long time to do that. then that gets into, you know, what should the united states do whampt does the eu do in terms of willingness to suffer to make sure this never happens again. i think that's the case. if you dealt with the baltics, estonia, latvia, lithuania, they think they're next. i agree with that if we don't stop putin now. we all have to brace for a long one and put russia, i think, and putin in particular to not do this again. >> let me ask you about this in terms of putting pressure on russia. even if russia doesn't go any further, it has managed to strangle ukraine economically by
shutting down the port of odesa. by shutting down almost all ukrainian exports by sea which is where the bulk of them used to go, all the grain, for example. i've been publicizing the former nato commander has been proposing, that the united states and nato effectively open up odesa so that ukraine can export to the world. there's a kind of reflagging operation we did around the persian gulf several years ago that you are well familiar with. there's a way to do it so it doesn't come across as an act of war. is there such a solution in your view? you're a former chair of the joint chiefs but also an admiral. could the u.s. navy do something to unlock odesa? >> i think it's a decision by president biden. honestly, i've been mystified we haven't put u.s. navy ships up
into the black sea to create the kind of corridor you speak of. it has been mentioned by other individuals who served. it is doable. the quoreyk worry that i have, longer we delay, the harder it will be to do. those that operate on the sea, the russian and the u.s. side, and different from the use of, quote, unquote, potential use of nuclear weapons. there's nothing that's going to happen at sea that's going to turn this into world war 3 specifically. you now see the human carnage associated with it. i think the u.s. and our allies have to do a lot more to control the black sea and control the sea lane so we can get the grain and experts out to so many needy countries who are on the edge of food insecurity when this war started and now are deeply into it, probably much more deeply than we really understand.
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taiwan semiconductor manufacturing company. it's an old school name for one of the most modern state of the art companies in the world. if you've never heard of the company known as tsmc, you'll want to listen closely. its products are semiconductors, the heart of all high tech. their chips may very well be in your cell phone, your computer, your car and your tv. they manufacture chips for the
biggest tech brands all over the world. american brands most notably apple. chinese brands, european ones and more. tsmc is the most valuable company in all of asia. more importantly perhaps, it is the tenth most valuable company in the entire world. the company is building a $12 billion advance chip manufacturing plant in arizona thanks in part to expected subsidies which passed this week in the chips act. so why am i telling you about tsmc now? well, as "the wall street journal" said last year in a headline, the world relies on one chip maker in taiwan leaving everyone vulnerable so when china threatens forceful measures over speaker pelosi's plans over taiwan, fears of an attack on taiwan rise an many in the tech and business worlds think immediately of tsmc. i had the pleasure of a rare
interview with its chairman. what would happen to taiwan and to the taiwanese economy if china were to invade? >> oh, of course war brings no winners. everybody's losers and people -- people in taiwan has earned their democratic system in taiwan and they want to choose their way of life and we -- we think that, indeed, chip supply is critical business in economy in taiwan but had it been a war in taiwan, probably the chip is not the most important thing we should worry about because this
evasion if come after is the destruction of the world-based order, there is no -- the geopolitical landscape would totally change. >> do you worry that taiwan is now so into growth of the chinese supply chain at the high end, does that create a danger for taiwan or is it a deterrent? people sometimes talk about the tsmc shield but you can equally see beijing saying we need to have total control of this. this is the most valuable asset and it's outside our borders. >> okay. nobody can control tsmc by force. if you take a military force or invasion, you will render tsmc
factory nonoperable because this is such a sophisticated manufacturing facility, it depends on the real time connection with outside world, with europe, with japan, with u.s. from materials to chemicals to spare parts to engineering software diagnosis. it's everybody's effort to make this factory operable. so if you take it over by force, you can no longer make it operable. in terms of the china business. today compose about 10% of our business. we only work with consumer. we don't work with military entity. we only work in consumer market. we think that is a consumer
pulse is important and it is vib vibrant, and if they need us, it's not a bad thing. >> expand on that. why is it not a bad thing. >> because our interruption will create great economic turmoil in either side, in china, because suddenly their most advanced component is supply disappeared. and it will -- it is interruption, i must say, so people will think twice on this. i think the ukraine war, i think we should draw lessons from it. people think ukraine war
connected with taiwan strait, they are very different, but in case you think about in parallel, ukraine war is not good for any of the side, from the western world, from russia, for ukraine. it's loose, loose, loose scenarios. all three side ought to draw lessons. i think they do. we should use those lessons to look at the lens on taiwan. how can we avoid a war? how can we ensure the world economies -- engine of the world economy continue running and let's have a fair competition on top of the platform. that's what i think. >> next on gps, more with mark lu, the chair of asia's biggest company. the chip maker tsmc as he warns china against invading taiwan. back in a moment.
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we are back here on gps bringing you more of my interview with one of the most important people in the world you've probably never heard of. mark lu is the chair of the chip maker tsmc. "time magazine" said the company makes the world's tech run. it's true. their high quality chips are likely inside many of the high tech products you interact with every day. for instance, do you have an iphone in your pocket, a laptop or a desktop? apple is a major client of taiwan-based tsmc whose chips also encompass phones, computers, cars, refrigerators and much, much more. i wanted to understand how they achieved all of this in the shadow of china. from your perspective, what explains the taiwan miracle? this is now a place that has grown at 5% a year for five
decades. there are very few places in the world that have managed that. what explains the taiwan miracle? >> looking from outside it appears to be a miracle. for the people working hard on the island, it is just a history of fighting. i think, to be honest, compared with other nations, particularly in asia, i think one of the key component taiwan is a peaceful society. it maintain peace since 1949 to today. 70 years. it's a peaceful island and during the period of time that taiwan has transformed from authoritarian state into a democratic state, democratic
society peacefully, this is marvelous because if you look at nations around the world, such a smooth transition, peaceful transition that is -- we are fortunate, to be honest. if you talk about miracles, i also think there's one thing that is very distinctly different is education system. when i was young, only 10% of the young people entered college or universities. today 80% of the young people have college or university degrees. the government set up many colleges, universities, and every kid, if you want to go to university, you can go and as long as you spend time. so that is -- created a relatively good quality of population in taiwan posing for any change ahead.
that's why i think there's a very, very special -- >> why is it so difficult for anyone to make the chips that you make? and i'm thinking now about the 7 nanometer, the americans have these great companies that have a huge history, like intel. the chinese pour tens of billions of dollars into new companies but no one can make the chips you make. why? >> well, they can't just a few years later. >> that's all the difference in this business. >> you're right. that's all the difference. i think -- i think the -- we treat the semiconductor technology itself as a business, as a science. it's not assembly workers. and of course i -- credit is to
be working with our partners. even in covid time, you know, our engineer used ar, augmented reality lenses, to work with engineer in netherland, work with engineer in california and that's how we -- how close we work together. and together we pushed frontier of the semiconductor technologies. i cannot tell you everything why but -- >> you're not going to tell me the secret formula for coca-cola. finally, tell me what you think taiwan will look like in the future technologically, economically. what are your hopes? >> i hope that we don't get
discriminated because we are close with china. no matter your relationship with china, taiwan is taiwan. you have to look at taiwan as a -- by itself a vibrant society. we want to unleash the innovation for the world into the future continuously and not to be scared because we have some dispute with our neighbors, and that is not worth it. >> but it seems to me you're saying to the world, correct me if i'm wrong, you're saying to the world, don't be scared by the -- by what china is saying because the chinese will never be able to take over the taiwanese economy. the taiwanese economy is built on this global collaboration, on trust, on openness. they'll find they have taken
over nothing if they come in? >> correct. yes. i do believe so. the war can only create problem on three sides, all three sides, and that is -- we need to prepare the worst but we should hope for the best. >> so you said about the ukraine war, lose, lose, lose. your hope is for win, win, win. >> at least -- at least not lose. yes. if you have the war, then it will be that. if it's peaceful, it's a pound of competition. strategies all three sides and i think that is nobody in the business world want to see a war happen and why do we jump again into another trap. >> thank you for taking so much time. >> thank you very much, fareed. enjoyed talking to you.
next on "gps," hungary's prime minister warned last weekend that europe might become a mixed race world. well, i have news for him. hungary's great strength for many centuries has been the diversity of its population. i've given a history lesson when we come back. nology that's easier to control... that can scale across all your clouds... we got that right? yeah, we got that. it's easier to be an innovator. so you can do more incredible things. [whistling]
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and now for last look. this coming week of the influential cpac conference in dallas alongside donald trump and ted cruz and more than 20 republican members of conference, the conservatives are welcoming a foreign leader, hungry's victor orban. i wonder if he is going to give a victory speech of when he was worried about hungry becoming a
mixed race trend of which he was always willing to mix with one anot another, but we don't want to become people of mixed race. someone needs to give orban a lesson of mixed race. the scholars of modern day hungary migrated from as far as siberia, and with the generations of caucasians and hungarians and slavs the hu hungarian languages were as far away as finnish and slavs, and 75% had the highest prevalence of the form of jewish ancestry found outside of israel, so the
idea that pure hungarian race is a fantasy. and so, remember, hungary was one of the farfetched single race because it had a group of multi lingual school, and when the multi national orders were given to attack troop, they were given in a dozen languages. and budapest was were two of the biggest magnates of the world. but he seems to have a bigger
focus. the speech last weekend singled out a specific group, muslims. he said that islamic civilization is constantly moving to urpeurope, and this i common refrain for him, and he said while he is joining bid to join the eu it would be one snag, the country's 2 million muslims and once again, orban is turning a blind eye to the muslims when he is turning to the mayan dynasty conquered the iberian peninsula, and the mayans went to the vienna empire, and failed to capture it twice. they actually ruled the part of the empire until the 16th century, and today, muslims make up 0.4% of the population of
hungary, and that is some threat. so there is a gruesome rhetoric like orban's in his country, and this is what led in the 1930s to the passage of some of the harshest laws against the jews and copied from the nuremberg laws against hungary, and they had population of 800,000 in that period, and today, there are about 100,000 jews in hungary, and one of orban's own aides resigned in disgust at his effort of race-baiting, and described the speech as a nazr text worthy of joseph gobels, and if there are any honorable conservatives at cpac, they should distance themselves from orban and disstance themselves from his message. that is my program today, and we
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hello, everyone. thank you so much for joining me this sunday. i'm fredricka whitfield and we begin this hour with breaking news and sad news, and one of the greatest nba champions of all time, bill russell passed away. the longtime boston celtic, and five-time mvp passed away peacefully today at the age of 88. his wife janine was by his side. russell is considered not a champion just on the court, but of civil rights.
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