tv Fareed Zakaria GPS CNN October 10, 2010 10:00am-11:00am EDT
leader tom daschle, a friend of rouse, says "he loves cats, and the way to suck up to pete is to get him sort of a cat gift of some kind." from here on out, the road to the oval office goes through pete rouse, for those looking for a little time with the president, we suggest a scratching post or a little catnip. thank you for watching "state of the union." i'm candy crowley in washington. for our international viewers "world report" is next. for empbs, "fareed zakaria gps" starts right now. this is "gps" the global public square. welcome to all of you in the united states and around the world. i'm fareed zakaria. the big news on the foreign policy front is that the afghan government is in secret talks with the taliban, not so secret anymore. regular viewers and readers know i've been advocating this for year. don't expect miracles. but the idea of talking to the people we're fighting with makes
would be ideally suited to be given a central role in the talks. if he could get the serbs to make peace as he did at the talks over the balkans he might make some headway with the taliban. the fact that the taliban are actually talking is a good sign. for the last year the united states and car die government have wanted to open negotiations but the taliban has been resistant. the fact this has changed suggests the taliban are feeling the pressure of additional u.s. troops and the new counter insurgency strategy. that doesn't mean success is anywhere close to being in sight. there is still the problem of pakistan, which continues to control elements of the taliban and another powerful group of militants, the hakani faction, and until the pakistani military turns its back on these groups, peace in afghanistan will be temporary and fragile, because there will always be those base camps in pakistan. the people we should be talking to, bluntly, are the folks in the pakistani military.
we have a great show for you today. first up, in just over three weeks americans will go to the polls, and it is undoubtedly a wild time in the history of american politics. who will control congress after the elections? is the tea party here to stay or is it just a passing fad? we've got some great thinkers and historians to talk about all this and put it in context. then you think u.s. unemployment is bad, what in the world is happening in south africa? 50% unemployment by some accounts. who is to blame? we'll take a look. next up, president obama's car czar, steve rapnor brought american auto companies from the brink of collapse. many ask if they were worth saving, inside the white house, the bailouts and more. ♪ and a last look at the surprising figure at the top of the pops in britain t isn't lady as in gaga. it is a sir better known for his
policies than miss pipes. you'll be surprised. let's get started. -- captions by vitac -- www.vitac.com so what to make of these tumultuous times when the tea party is all the talk in american politics? i want to delve deep near the phenomenon to understand it better. i've gathered a group of people who understand the present but also the past. robert carro, historian currently working on the fourth volume of his famous biography of president lyndon baines johnson. peggy noonan, columnist for "the wall street journal," the 20th anniversary edition of her wonderful book "what i saw at the revolution" has just been published. go out and buy it. charles postalle has written a history of populism that won the bancroft prize, the most prestigious prize for american historian, richard writes for "the national review" the first cover story in that magazine when he was 15 years old. he has written biographies of
everyone from the founding fathers to william f. buckley. welcome to all of you. is this a garden variety conservative movement? something more? >> i think it is conservative but it has potential appeal to centrists. i think it has some of, the tea party has some ofthe style and spirit, if you will, of classic populist movements. it is anti-establishment, it is anti-eli anti-elites. it is broad. it is spontaneous. it is still evolving. it is not something that is set. it is not part of the republican party. it is a critique of and challenge to that party, and we'll see how that goes, how that relationship plays out as the tea party evolves, but i think it's very much within american tradition and i also think it is where the energy is on the political scene right now. >> so bob, when does something
that we would call modern populism, in other words not going all the way back but when does populism as we would understand it begin in the modern era? >> it's not only the when but where. you know, populism started 48 miles north of lyndon johnson's hometown, johnson city, in the depths of the texas hill country. when you think of populism today, you say lyndon johnson's grandfather ran for the legislature on the populist ticket. his father was a democrat, but he was a true populist who said to lyndon johnson, the job of government is to help people cordon the tentacles of circumstance. that's what populism wanted. populism was for social justice, governments stepping in to help people fighting forces too big for them to fight themselves. so when i watch the tea party today try to appropriate the tag of populism, you really think that's really at odds with american history.
>> so charles would you agree with that, the populist movement in its essence has really a kind of movement of people wanting government involvement? >> i agree with that very much so. this is a good description. it was, the epicenter was central texas back in the 1880s and '90s, poor farmers wanted to use government to make a better life for themselves. they wanted to use government to make a better life for poor people and that was what it was about. >> what is the tea party? >> the tea party is a conservative movement, not a populist movement. it's a conservative movement that doesn't think the government should make a better life for poor people, for the common person. >> when you look at the tea party, what do you think it is? is it populist, what are its roots? >> there was a populist party in the united states, and we've heard, you know, the history of that, but there is also recurring movements that say there is an elite that has control of our politics and
they're mismanaging it and running it badly and we have to get rid of them, and this goes back to the late 18th century. well, it goes back to the american revolution. i mean, that was saying the elite is a british one, we have to throw it off, but then after our independence, lo and behold, people thought there's still elites here, and they're throttling the just desires of the american people. >> and the tea party is part of this kind of anti-elitist, anti-centralizational power. >> they come from different directions. i don't think you can say they're always from the left or they're always from the right. sometimes they come from the right, sometimes they come from the left. the anti-elitist movement of the 1790s was the first republican party, which was thomas jefferson and james madison, and they said look, the federalists are running things and they're doing it badly. they're getting us into war with france, they're betraying the republican principles of the government, and we got to stop it, and they got elected president. >> what do you think, why is the energy there, peggy?
>> because they feel, i think, i mean i spend a lot of time talking to and e-mailing with folks who were involved in various places in the tea party, they're so diverse in their thinking and some of them talk about the tenth amendment or some of them talk about this, but the one thing that they have in common, and if they stick with this i think they will be very attractive in the future to centrist voters and thinkers, the one thing they have in common is that they are making a kind of economic protest against the federal government in washington. they are saying you are too big. you demand too much. you are changing the shape of too many things. you're regulating too much and all of this promises to be bad for our country in the future. but it's economic issues that they talk about. i think as they evolve if they become involved in other issues it may not be so attractive to centrists, but i think if they stay where they are and look to
their knitting t will move forward and be something very interested and full of implication. >> bob? >> you know, peggy, you are perfectly right. it's economic interests they're talking about. the interests they're not talking about is social justice. the whole idea of populism is that government must step in to help people fighting forces that are too large for them to help fight themselves. who would say in the interests of, if you talk to the populist leaders and you said 39 million or 40 million americans don't have health insurance today, who in the original populist movement would not say then it's the job of government to step in and do that? that's the terrible thing that's been lost in this debate, the whole history, the whole fight you might say for social justice in america is sort of being left out of this discussion of the tea party movement. >> bob, are we confusing populism and the populist tradition with progressivism and
the progressivist tradition? i don't hear anybody in the tea party saying do away with social security. >> yes. everywhere. everywhere. >> in every movement there are some people. >> no, no. >> they are absolutely not saying social security should not exist. >> they are. >> they are saying reform the entitlements. they are saying change the way it's set up >> this is what you would like them to say. >> it is what they are saying and saying to me. now they may be saying something different to you but it is a nation of 305 million people. you are describing something that i'm not seeing, and so it leaves me confused. this is a broad, the tea party movement is broad and evolving. nobody is in charge of it. nobody's telling it what to think. >> the tea party movement is a very well-organized, very disciplined movement, in my view. it has very important centers of power. the role of fox news, glenn beck is very important in this.
he's not just a figure. he's just not one of the figures. he is a very important mover and shaker in the tea party movement. and what i'm describing is the stuff about -- >> free press, terrible. >> i'm all for the free press, but -- >> not having an effect. >> i'm not saying you shouldn't do t but it but we should recognize that the fox machine plays a fundamental role in the organization of the tea parties and glenn beck is one of these people who is saying that obama is leading us or is a socialist, and leading us to -- >> i think it's more interesting -- >> so national review institute took a poll about the tea party and related phenomena, and of the respondents who said they had been to tea parties, one-fifth said they voted for obama. >> we have to break the discussion and we will be back to have more on the tea party, more on american politics, left, right and center.
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we are back with robert carroll, peggy noonan, charles and richard, talking about the tea party and the future of american politics. bob, let me ask you another question, at some level the tea party does seem similar and very big and the movements that you see around the west they all seem to have a kind of populist, nativist, nationalistic feel to them. >> yes. >> how much, and if you listen to tea party on issues like immigration or the islamic center at ground zero, they are very, very passionate about that. >> yes. >> how much of this is about nationalism/nativeism/race? after all we do have the first black president in office. >> it's a very perceptive question. because to me that's what's at the bottom of a lot of this. i mean like i'm writing in the book i'm writing about lyndon
johnson, he is passing the voting rights act of 1965. at that time, blacks could hardly vote in any significant numbers. in 11 states, they weren't really a political force like they are today. that was 1965. this is 2010, which even by my math is 45 years. you know, that's in terms of history, fareed, that's a blink of history's eye. 45 years ago african-americans were not nearly as significant a force in american political life and today an african-american sits as president in the united states -- in the oval office. you say that has happened so fast. i think that in a way, it takes time for people to absorb that. i happen to believe that race does play a factor in everything in american life, even those of us who would like to pretend and hope that it doesn't, and i
think that what you ask is at the bottom of a lot of what is happening today. >> if obama were a middle aged white man do you think many people would say he's taken the country away from me, he's not an american, things like that? >> well, i think that, my own view is if hillary clinton were president, we would have, we would have the same billionaires funding protest movements against her that we have against obama. the coke brothers were just as passionate about clinton as they are against obama, and we would be, if she had pushed health insurance, we would be having the same cries of socialist dictatorship that we have today. i don't think there's a difference. there's no question that the tea party is tapping into racist feelings. >> it's an important part of it. >> i'm guessing you don't totally agree. >> i just want to back up and you know, yes, race is a dark
and bloody ground throughout american history and we should acknowledge here that many of the populists were awful race is. so there was a lot of, you know, this bad baggage appears on the right, on the left. it appears from elitists, it's appeared in populist movements, sticking up for the little guy, as long as he was the white little guy, so let's not have any "not me, lord." it's that public. >> however, what about the tea party movement of 2010? is there an element of racism? >> look, i'll just repeat the statistic i gave you. we found one-fifth of people who had gone to tea parties had voted for obama. so if they were, they're very odd racists if that's what they are. i'm not buying it. >> peggy, race? >> i don't think that's what this is about. i think the tea party movement is about a crisis in america and an attempt by people to deal
with it in a way that is not driven by parties but is driven by individuals who are connecting through the internet, through various ways, and trying to move the ball forward in a way they think is commonsensical and right. i think it begins with a sense of crisis, not with race. >> and do you think when you look at this moment that the country is moving left, moving right, ideologically where are we moving? the conventional wisdom is obama moved too far left and this produced a reaction. >> well i think there's no question that when you look at obama's approval ratings, one thing we need to add into it, a lot of disapproval come from people on the left who don't think he did enough, the public option, closing guantanamo, the war in afghanistan, there are
many people who are discontent with obama. >> nobody's voting for the tea parties in republicans because obama wasn't too far left >> we haven't had an election yet. you look at the opinion polls of days pproval that's part of the disapproval opinion polls. the other side of it is, there's the tea parties have had an enormous microphone and whatever you say about it, having the most powerful cable network behind them is a tremendous microphone, and -- >> free speech. gets you all the time, man. first amendment. >> the most powerful cable network, you mean the second most powerful cable network. >> whatever it is. >> guys, every time the left gets obsessed with fox news, i know they're starting to lose. get your mind off that. talk to the tea party. get out there with the folks, not just the people who e-mail you and declare themselves to be john birch society members but forget that stuff.
everybody's got a mike in america, everybody. what matters is the message that's going into it. don't look at shiny sparkling things. there are things below that that are more interesting. glenn beck is a shiny sparkling thing. >> last, bob? >> if i had to sum out -- >> you would act out frustration. >> i would say it's a battle that's been going on in western civilization for a long time, and this is a moment of a real clash. i would put the clash differently than you. i would put the clash about issues of social justice. you would put the thing about, you know, government, economic issues and the crisis, but i don't think we can ignore the fact that right now, during the obama administration, is a very climatic moment for democracy in america. >> on that climatic note, thank you all and we will be right back. ♪
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event were warm and colorful so i was surprised to read of the bitter strikes that have crippled the country recently. striking teachers, health care workers and other government employees left aids patients and newborns without treatment, children without education. the strike has been row solved now but it will cause new problems. the unions representing the workers have gotten hefty wage gains, twice the rate of inflation from the government, but to pay for these increases, the government has announced it will freeze all new hiring. there you have the paradox of south africa today. powerful, prestigious trade unions that are holding the country. let me explain. south africa has one of the highest unemployment rates in the world. the official statistics say 25% of the labor force is unemployed but that number actually doesn't count people who are so discouraged as job seekers that they have given up on their hunt for work all together. in all, more than 50% of south
africa's entire working age population is not employed. how does a country get to that point? there are many reasons but a chief cause is the incredible power and stubbornness of the country's unions. these unions once wielded their power to end apartheid but now they have such a stranglehold on government they might actually end up strangling the entire nation. strikes are so commonplace there's a designated strike season. the recent strikes which started just after the world cup ended, consisted of more than 1 million government workers on the picket line, effectively shutting down the country. authorities had to result to water cannons and rubber bullets to break up the protests. in the end the strikers got much of what they wanted and cost the government billions. payroll is now a third of the nation's entire budget. amidst the global recession which took a whack at south africa, south africa's trade unions last year negotiated on average 9% wage increases for their members, according to the
imf. the average public sector wage increase was 11%. these are unheard of railses in much of the world particularly in these tough times. the private sector couldn't pass these costs on to the consumer and the costs were making south african products less competitive on the global market so factories and stores and offices were shut, adding to the country's already disastrous unemployment rate. but wages and strikes are only a part of what's bringing south africa down. observers say what's probably worse are the draconian regulations unions have on hiring and more importantly firing. it's essentially impossible to fire a unionized worker in south africa so companies are unscared to hire anybody because they're scared of bringing on a bad employee who they can't fire. executives make do with fewer workers or outsource the work to asia or elsewhere. here is the crucial bit to understand, unionized workers are a my north of the south
african workforce, and they are the ones with jobs that pay decently. again, a great minority, these union workers are rich compared to their non-union neighbors and friends. so the unions are not protecting the wages of the average south african worker. they are making the average south african pay the price for their own wages and benefits. it's precisely the opposite of our image of unions battling for the little guys. i remember the halo that surrounded south africa's trade unions as they helped bring down apartheid. what a tragedy they have used the prestige and credibility that came from that incredible struggle and have become a special interest group, and one that is strangling the country they supposedly love. and we'll be right back. there's a lot of culture shock when you find out that you have to buy your own bottles of water for your guests or buy them lunch because there's no budget for these things. [ whistling ] no matter what we're buying. and since double miles add up quick... romans! get em!
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car czar has been a title bestowed on probably one man in history. steve ratnor was asked to fix the auto industry. he spent most of his life on wall street at senior positions at morgan stanley and he set up his own private equity company and before that years as a reporter for the "new york times" so with three different backgrounds, journalism, business, government, what are steve ratnor's views on the economy, obama and of course, the car companies? let's listen. what do you think of president obama as a ceo? you spend a lot of time in the private sector. was he a good ceo? >> i thought he was a terrific ceo. it was interesting, people said what does he know about being a ceo? he did run a campaign pretty well but the fact was he was a natural and i have been around as you say a lot of ceos over the years but he was, he didn't dwell on things. he was willing to make decisions
but he did not awe rush through and say i've got ten minutes to make this decision. i'm going to make it. one famous day he adjourned a meeting until later in the day so he could have more time to reflect on whether to save chrysler, probably his toughest decision and i thought he was thoughtful. he came to the meetings read his briefing papers. i can't imagine when he started running for. thought dealing with crisis something he'd have to do but he was a good soldier and he dug into it so no i came away with a lot of respect for his ceo qualities. >> what about his basic economic philosophy. you know that when you do the polls, something like 30% of democrats think that he is a socialist, whatever that means, and 70% of. s say that and they accuse him of this all the time. >> he's not a socialist, that's for sure. i would probably concede that he is maybe less comfortable with business, yet less familiar with
business than president clinton was, even though president clinton never worked in the private sector. president clinton had some appreciation or fondness for business that was maybe a little bit unusual but it was there. i would also say that a president exists in a political climate and represents all the people in this country. one of the things i say often to my wall street friends who are very upset with the president, to a person, you have to deal with the climate out there. this country is angry. this country is suffering economically. it blames wall street for a lot of its problems. it blames business for some of its problems. the president's job cannot always be to stand up for business or to stand up for wall street. he's got to assimilate all the thoughts and put them together into a package he believes in and also politically saliable. there was a famous meet being a year and a half ago he said to the group of bankers "i'm the only thing standing between you and the pitch fors." he meant it, he was the only thing preventing a bunch of
bankers metaphorically being lynched by the american public and he's balancing this and i think he's balancing it reasonably well. >> as you said all of your wall street friends, a man or woman, just incensed. what do you think explains the level of anger against obama from the business community? >> i think a couple things. first of all, because there is a lot of tough rhetoric about wall street, the president does believe that wall street was a significant part of the problem, more of a problem than wall street believes it was. i think wall street is a little bit in its own little bubble, and doesn't really get what's going on out in the country and understand the extent to which they need to be responsive to it, need to appreciate it, whether they agree with it or not they have to accept it >> do you think he should appoint somebody who has real business experience to succeed larry summers? >> i think it's a little bit of a red herring in the sense that is he very plugged in to the world. he has his economic recovery advisory board that consists of a number of very distinguished
businessmen, including jeff immelt and so forth from general electric. he reads voraciously. is may be simply to get rid of this one criticism of him, he could put somebody from the business community in there, but i would say somebody from the business community would find working in the white house and larry summers' job an extreme culture shock. >> what do you mean? >> you're going from being a ceo, running a company, saying this is what we're going to do, to a very complex organization that operates very much by collaboration, consensus, bringing in opinions from all over the government. it's basically a staff job, it's a very important staff job but you're working for the president and the other senior staff members. it's very different from being a ceo. i think it would be a tough adjustment for most ceos. >> would do you it in. >> well, i'm not a ceo and i'm selling my book at the moment, so it's not something i'm thinking about. >> you spent a while working in government after many years as a
journalist, many more years on wall street, founded your own firm. what was the dominant thing that struck you about working in government at a very high level? >> it was interesting, because it was different in a number of ways from what i expected. of course, i went in with low expectations. i had been around washington enough, i had all the stereotypes of what washington was like and so where it was different or the same, first there are quite a number, no particular order quite a number of career people in the government who are really capable people, who don't leave the office at 4:00, who are there for you. we depend on a lot of them in the auto rescue to execute some of the policies that we were trying to put in place and i think a lot of them get a bad rap. secondly, government actually can do things when it puts its mind to it. t.a.r.p. was a unique set of circumstances perhaps, but the use of the t.a.r.p. money was incredibly focused, sharp, commercial, done right, and had great results. and thirdly, of course, government is bureaucratic and
nobody should confuse themselves. i went from a small firm to the largest bureaucracy in the world, and so there's a lot of culture shock when you find out that you have to buy your own bottles of water for your guests or buy them lunch because there's no budget for these things or hiring takes two weeks instead of two days in the middle of a budget crisis. >> what about the politics around it? did you find that there was more, there was less? >> the politics from the hill are miserable. >> meaning? >> meaning you know, everyone knows they become more divisive, more partisan, more parochial, more piccayune. there are two chrysler dealers in my district being closed and i don't understand why and you have to work through all this stuff. before i was appointed i was attacked by members of the democratic party from michigan on the grounds that i didn't know enough about the auto industry and they wanted someone with real manufacturing background. so congress is a tough ombre,
and my colleagues found icy much more frustrating experience than i did having access to t.a.r.p. money. >> we'll be back with steve wrat rattner. >> we're dealing with companies that didn't have a handle on their own business so there was no plan and essentially we were on a very fast ticking clock of trying to figure this thing out in real time. ice 1) we've detected an anomaly... (voice 2) how bad is it? (voice 1) traffic's off the chart... (voice 2) they're pinging more targets... (voice 3) isolate... prevent damage... (voice 2) got 'em. (voice 3) great exercise guys. let's run it again.
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are today's top stories. this morning, pakistan reopened a border crossing into afghanistan. the torkum pass is a key point of entry for nato supply convoys. pakistan closed the border in response to u.s. helicopter strikes that killed two pakistani soldiers. on wednesday the u.s. apologized to pakistan for the attack, saying the pilots mistook the soldiers for insurgents. ♪ north korea's leader kim jong-il made a rare public appearance with his youngest son today at a massive military parade. officials say 20,000 soldiers took part in the spectacle marking the 65th anniversary of the worker's party of korea. the united states believes kim jong-un has been tapped to replace his ailing father as north korea's leader. a russian soyuz spacecraft carrying two russian cosmonaut and an american astronaut docked with the international space station saturday. the final shuttle missions
scheduled for november and february will complete u.s. assembly of the station which has been under construction since 1998. those are your top stories. up next, more "fareed zakaria gps" and after, "reliable sources" howard kurtz' interview with bob woodward. sure i'd like to diversify my workforce, i just wish that all of the important information was gathered together in one place. [ printer whirs ] done.
personal pricing now on brakes. tell us what you want to pay. we do our best to make that work. deal! my money. my choice. my meineke. we are back with steve rattner, going to talk about how he rescued the car companies and whether it was a good idea. at what point does obama decide i can't let these car companies go under? what happens that focuses this issue and makes him think about it? >> president obama really knew from the moment he first engaged in november on this issue,
november of '08 that he was going to have to take some action and that's why they began reaching out for somebody to help organize a group of people within the administration to address it. >> and at this point, was it clear the nature and extent of what you'd have to do? >> nobody had any idea what the nature and extent of what we had to do. there was no auto department in the federal government. one of the consequences of our desirable rue of not having industrial policy is we don't have departments of the government that are deep experts on industrial sectors so nobody in the government knew anything about autos. there were a couple people working on the transition, very talented people but they were kind of drinking from a fire hose trying to get up to speed quickly on autos. no, and remember also when the car companies went in front of congress in november of 2000, give us $15 billion and all of the problems would be solved. they didn't know the magnitude of their problems. it was a big mess. nobody knew what was going to happen or what we should do. >> this was the meeting in which
american company, based in troy, michigan, a midwestern group of executives, came in and said we need help and we're chatting about this and that. i said how many people do you employ from memory about about 135,000. how many in the u.s.? they said 15,000. and the rest were in mexico, they were in bangladesh, thailand, they were in china, they were in all these places so what's an american company, what is not an american company is interesting but the questions were the jobs, and there it is tough for us to compete on the manufacturing side with much, much lower wage and very high productivity, in mexico gm gets just as much productivity as it does in the u.s. >> and yet pays? >> and yet pays $7 an hour. >> and are you optimistic that in the next few years the economy will bounce back? >> i'm optimistic that we're going to have a cyclical recovery. it's slower than anybody would like but i think there are enough green shoots. as people like to call them we'd have a cyclical recovery.
the two structural problems are the budget deficit we talked about earlier and the lack of any political will to address it and secondly our long-term globe competitiveness and which i don't believe should be a process of trying to protect inefficient industries to our earlier conversation but one of trying to make a transition just like new york city did. new york city was one of the capitals of the industrial revolution, long island city we made everything in the 19th century and today we make almost nothing there but new york city is doing better than it's done. it may be a unique example. >> steve rattner pleasure to have you. >> thanks for having me. >> we will be right back. never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few. [ male announcer ] one look can turn the everyday into romantic. ♪ an accidental touch can turn ordinary into something more. moments can change anytime -- just like that.
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our question this week from the fareed challenge is, the nobel prize in physics went to the discover remembers of an element 100 times stronger than steel. what is that el tempt called? it was in the newspaper this is week. is it hectosteel, b, graphene, c, maximene or d, ferramax. stay tuned. go to cnn.com/gps to try your hand at ten more questions on the fareed challenge. instead of a book of the week i have for you a magazine of the week or the year if you buy a subscription. it is "time" magazine, starting with this week's edition i will have a regular column in the magazine and write the occasional cover story well. this week about china drawing off my interview with premier wen jiabao. it is the cover story in "time's" international edition and featured in the u.s. edition and a superb essay in this issue by joe klein about his road trip
across america, reading the tea party leaves. go to our website you'll find links to all of it. now for the last look, there's a british prime minister who has just climbed to the top of the pops, but i think you'll be surprised at which one. no david come ran and nick clegg have not formed the downing street duo and gordon brown isn't doing senate rah covers. the fourth features. the voice of sir winston chur churchi churchill. he's not crooning. >> never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few. ♪ >> churchill's famous speeches rallying the nation for the bat of britain have been put to the muse music of a royal air force band. >> against the british empire and its commonwealth, lost for a thousand years, men will still say this was their finest hour.