tv CNN Newsroom CNN July 5, 2011 1:00pm-3:00pm EDT
well, let the countdown begin. a live picture of the countdown clock marking the final space shuttle launch. "atlantis" astronauts are getting ready for friday's end of an era. we take you live to kennedy space center for the latest on this final mission, about ten minutes away when we show you the kennedy space center. we begin right now with a dramatic turnaround. atlanta public schools nationally recognized for students who had mastered state tests, well, the year was 2009. those schools and their leaders were held up as models for struggling school districts everywhere. the atlanta schools chief was named u.s. superintendent of the year. today, an independent investigation says it was all a lie. those amazing gains were the result of cheating teachers who themselves stood to gain from rising scores. the scandal centers on standardized tests, the so-called criterion referenced competency test. investigators found cheating in 44 out of 56 elementary schools
at the hands of almost 180 teachers and principals. 82 of them have reportedly confessed that they took part. the atlanta journal constitution was the first to ask questions three years ago and its finding led to official inquiries which administrators allegedly blocked. well now criminal charges are said to be possible. let me show you some of the questionable test scores that we're talking about. one school noted by the atlanta journal constitution, 94% of fourth graders actually failed a practice math test in 2009. well, two months later on the real test, the same class scored fourth, fourth in the state. the paper says the odds of that kind of change are less than one in one billion. a different school, pretty much the same story. listen, a fourth grade class ranks 830th in the state on the state math test in 2008. one year later, as fifth graders, they come in first. what are the odds?
again, less than one in a billion. georgia's governor says students pay the price when teachers fix their answers. listen. >> nothing is more important to the future of our state than ensuring that today's students receive a first class education and integrity in testing is a necessary piece of that equation. when test results are falsified and students who have not mastered the necessary material are promoted, our students are harmed. parents lose sight of their child's true progress and taxpayers are cheated. >> what about superintendent hall, the national superintendent of the year? after years of flat-out denials that anyone cheated, she admitted last month that some wrongdoing did take place but other people were to blame. hall left her post when her contract expired june 30th. it's official. dominique strauss-kahn now faces sex charges in france as well.
as expected a lawyer for a french journalist filed an attempted rape complaint in paris just about an hour ago. strauss-kahn, once the powerful head of the international monetary fund is fighting sexual assault charges in the united states. jim bittermann joins us with the latest from france with those lawyers giving a press conference moments ago. jim? >> reporter: just to make this clear, he is not facing charges here yet. what has happened is a lawyer has filed a complaint with the prosecutor's office in paris. the prosecutor then has to study the case, decide whether there's enough evidence to actually go ahead and press charges, but that hasn't happened yet. in fact, it could take some months because the prosecutor can -- goes over the complaint, then tries to find out whether the evidence is substantiated. basically this relates to a case pretty well known here in france. this young lady said that back in 2003 when she was a budding
journalist and strauss-kahn was on his way up in the socialist party, she went and interviewed him and that he attacked her and tried to rape her. after that event, her mother, who was a midlevel member of the socialist party, basically talked her out of filing a complaint at the time. her mother says she now regrets that. but in any case, the daughter has said to the press here that in fact, she would be upset if strauss-kahn came back to france totally exonerated of the charges in the united states. that's why she is now filing this complaint and hoping the prosecutor goes along and files charges against strauss-kahn here. >> my understanding also, though, is that dominique strauss-kahn's french lawyers have also filed a counterclaim saying that these are false declarations, i guess amounting to slander. what's the status of that? >> that's exactly right. they have filed a defamation suit against both benon and the people around her, her lawyer
and others, basically saying those charges are not true. also, another thing that's happened is that some of strauss-kahn's allies have come out of the woodwork and are saying that miss benon is an opportunist and point out that she writes for a website that's closely connected to president sarkozy, a person who would have been opponent for strauss-kahn if he was running for president. >> briefly, i was in new york covering all this when it was happening. there were about 1,000 journalists who descended on to the courthouse there. one of the things strauss-kahn had said is that he was convinced that if he did run for president, that a political opponent would either make up allegations or they would try to get him on his past relationships. is that the mood in france, given that this woman, the mother, is actually part of the same party as he is? >> reporter: well, he certainly said that to the press. he said it to the editorial board of the big newspapers here about two weeks before he was arrested in new york.
he certainly was aware of the fact that there must have been something out there that people would try to accuse him of this or try to set him up is what he had suggested in his interview with the editorial board. yeah, i think politics here can be pretty dirty when it comes to presidential campaigns, and certainly, in his case, i think since he was a leading opponent, that there was a suggestion that perhaps his opponents were going to do something and that this whole thing was a setup. there's been some rumors and accusations about that that have been in the press here over the last few days, so this whole thing was set up with the hotel maid in new york. that of course, the charges still have not been dropped in new york but looks like they may be. nonetheless, it's a case that has large political overtones for france in a presidential election year. there's a lot at stake here. >> absolutely. certainly not over. jim bittermann, thank you so much. our man in paris. thanks a million. the jury in the casey anthony murder trial is in its second day of deliberations.
jurors met for nearly six hours yesterday and then they resumed this morning at 8:30 eastern. anthony of course accused of killing her 2-year-old daughter caylee three years ago, in addition to first degree murder, anthony is charged with aggravated manslaughter, aggravated child abuse and giving false information to law enforcement officers. if she's convicted on the murder charge, she could get the death penalty. the search for a missing college student resumes in indiana. authorities announced just a short time ago that a body found near indianapolis yesterday is not the body of 20-year-old lauren speier. indiana university student was last seen leaving a sports bar more than a month ago. her father spoke recently about what the family's going through. >> i still don't understand what's happened over the past four weeks. i can tell you that it's our worst nightmare. it's an experience that you
don't want anyone to ever have to go through. >> the search continues, but there's still no sign of at least six people missing from a capsized mexican tourist boat. at least one person, an american, died when the "erik" sank off the east coast of the baja peninsula. there were dozens of survivors. some managed to swim to shore while others were rescued by fishermen and the mexican navy. all are reported in good condition. to washington now, where lawmakers are making their way back to work on what typically is a week-long break for independence day. the senate convenes next hour. the house, tomorrow. but that's no guarantee that their most urgent priority will actually get resolved. i speak, of course, of the raising -- raising the nation's debt limit which we hit a month and a half ago and will no longer be able to work around come early august. if the limit is not raised, the treasury could default on its obligations which could make borrowing far more expensive.
as you may know, republicans are insisting on spending cuts at least as large as any debt increase and a trillion dollars in cuts have already been identified in talks with the white house. talks fell apart over gop refusal to consider any tax hikes which democrats say are vital to a balanced solution. republicans also want to vote on a balanced budget amendment to the constitution. nasa's shuttle program was as neil armstrong put it, one giant leap for mankind. that's all about to end but the next phase will more than likely have people like you and me flying through space. could be interesting. we take you live to florida. ♪ my only sunshine ♪ you makes me happy ♪ when skies are grey ♪ you'll never know, dear ♪ how much i love you ♪ please don't take my sunshine away ♪
the countdown to the end of an era begins. the crew of the space shuttle "atlantis" is preparing for its last launch and nasa's final shuttle mission. with the "atlantis" crew now at kennedy space center, nasa held a briefing today about its final flight. "atlantis" will lift off on friday for a 12-day mission to the international space station, signaling an end to nasa's longest and most successful space program. john zarrella will be watching it live. he joins us from florida. you think about it, this is a program that started under richard nixon. there have been 135 shuttle missions. it has carried -- it helped build the international space station, launched satellites. this is really our way of life has changed because of the shuttle. tell me about that. >> reporter: yeah, no question about it. you wouldn't have the space station without the space shuttle. some people will argue that the space station was built because nasa needed a destination for
the shuttle. nasa won't of course admit that but there is some truth to that. i think one of the milestones we never hear about about the space shuttle program, that the nasa administrator told me, was you know what, before the space shuttle, not a single woman or a person of color had flown on an american space vehicle. one of the most significant contributions the space shuttle has made to society is that, and the fact that people from all over the world, astronauts from across the planet, have had opportunities to fly on the space shuttle. a magnificent technological achievement and one that also had tremendous social benefit. >> also, the hubble telescope was one of their big accomplishments as well. >> reporter: without a doubt. yeah. >> we are hearing that weather could be a problem. what is the mood there? obviously everybody was sort of watching and waiting and then it's all about the weather. what's the sense there for friday?
>> reporter: yeah, isn't that typical down here in florida, it seems like it's always about the weather, certainly in the summertime. only a 40% chance of good weather on the launch day, if they go to saturday or sunday, the odds improve to about 60%. it's funny, too, the countdown clock that i can see out here was supposed to start ticking at 1:00, about 15 minutes ago. it hasn't started yet. nasa says the countdown has proceeded. they're not sure why the clock's not working. i guess if that's the worst that they have as a problem, the next few days, that's not bad. >> let's talk about the next phase in space flight as well, because we wonder, okay, this part's over, there's no -- we're not going to be commuting into space. 777 people i think i read commuted into space. what is next? >> reporter: well, that's just it. nasa will go ahead and take all their energies into deep space exploration. that's the plan.
go to an asteroid, go to mars, 2025, 2030, if the money's there, if the political resolve is there. meanwhile, commercial companies, they are going to go ahead now and nasa's saying it's up to you folks to take us to low earth orbit from here on. >> elon runs space-x. richard branson heads virgin galactic. both are using their considerable wealth to back bold attempts to make space travel as routine as boarding an airplane. >> people used to say it would be impossible to build your own spaceship, your own spaceship company, and be able to take people into space. that's the kind of challenge i love to sort of prove them wrong. >> we want to see a future where we are exploring the stars, where we are going to other planets, where we are doing the great things we read about in science fiction and the movies. >> reporter: there are several
companies, some big, some small, who see as nasa moves on to distant planets, that weightless region just above the atmosphere. just out of reach right now, becoming quite possibly a good investment. >> nasa's still in there, still going to develop a heavy lift rocket. but we've also got this hopefully flowering of private space flight and that's what's going to get us the hilton and hertz rent-a-car in orbit. >> reporter: the companies are on the verge of not just opening, but stepping through that door to the future. >> we want to make space accessible to everyone. that's a revolutionary change but it's incredibly exciting. it brings space, the possibility of space travel to all americans which is fantastic. >> reporter: next year, he hopes to begin carrying cargo to the international space station, eventually astronauts. a commercial company replacing
the space shuttle. >> we believe firmly we can send astronauts to the space station within three years of receiving a nasa contract to do so. >> reporter: unless it's safe, nasa's administrator says no u.s. astronaut will be on board. >> i cannot allow them to put us in jeopardy by not focusing on crew safety and the like. that's my job. >> reporter: the stakes are high. there is no turning back. the shuttle retired and astronauts left to riding russian space ships, nasa is counting on commercial companies to get it right, make it work. and the more who make it work, the more affordable it will become. >> that's the end of a particular era and it's up to individuals like myself, if you're in a position to be able to achieve wonderful things, not to waste that position.
>> liftoff! >> join john zarrella, anderson cooper and brooke baldwin for our special coverage of the final shuttle launch, friday beginning at 10:00 a.m. eastern right here on cnn. a great credit score is not enough to get you the home of your dreams. up next, see how the perfect buyer struggles to find a lender. so i take one a day men's 50+ advantage. it's the only complete multivitamin with ginkgo to support memory and concentration. plus it supports heart health. [ bat cracks ] that's a hit. one a day men's. can be even more powerful, with precise pain relieving cream. it blocks pain signals fast for relief precisely where you need it most. precise. only from the makers of tylenol.
lenders are imposing tighter standards, making mortgages harder to come by, even if you have played by the rules. alison kosik reports. >> reporter: for gary and his fiancee, christina daniels, the moment they saw this house, they knew they wanted it but for this couple, the buying process became a love/hate relationship. >> i was stunned when i got the news. >> reporter: a week before his closing, he found out his mortgage was denied. even though he put 20% down and had a top notch credit score. this credit report shows that you have an excellent credit. >> yes. my credit was exceptional, over 800 according to one of the reporting bureaus and high 700s according to the others. credit was not an issue at all. >> reporter: but he had started his own business in 2007 and initially, his income took a hit. finally, last year, his business started to pay off and he had a big jump in income. but that extra money coming in didn't mean approval. >> the reason i was told by my realtor i was declined was too big of a disparity between my 2009 and 2010 income.
>> reporter: five years ago, that may have not been a problem. but these days, it's a red flag. >> the bank is looking for steady income flow and that self-employed borrower can't show it so that person is getting declined right now and not able to buy a house. >> reporter: before the recession, credit was flowing free and easy but then when the housing market went bust, lenders pulled back, overcompensating and tightening lending standards. in fact, in today's market, almost a quarter of all mortgage applications are denied. >> we were too lenient in the early 2000s, too tight right now. >> reporter: if lenders don't find the middle, it could scare some buyers away. did you think at one point you were just going to give up and not go through with this? >> yes. that thought did enter my mind a couple of times. >> reporter: as for the lender, prosperity mortgage says quote, privacy laws dictate we protect the personal information of all individuals so we are unable to comment on a specific case. but the story ends well for gary and christina. he found another lender that got
him into a loan and the couple into a new home. but for him -- >> you just have to really have a thick skin. >> reporter: and be prepared to work through a difficult process. anyone who has actually gone through buying a home knows that it's just not an easy process but actually, the loan officer that you choose has a big impact on how well that process goes. you really need somebody in your corner and they should know what they're doing, how to structure a loan application the right way. the biggest hurdle is how you look on paper. you've got to have good credit and you shouldn't carry too much debt. >> it's really so interesting because banks are now sort of making again these judgments on who can afford and who cannot afford, and clearly, this man looks like he can afford. what are the most important things lenders are looking for when they are going over a person's mortgage application? how do you make yourself an attractive lendee? >> reporter: sure. there are four constants these lenders look at. first, they look at your income. they want to know that you've got a steady paycheck coming in
every month. secondly, they will look at your assets. they want to see that a borrower can actually document where the down payment is coming from for that home. they are also of course going to look at your credit. they want to see a high credit score, something over 720. and the value of the property, they will look at that. they want to see what the property is appraised at. although these days, appraisals are coming in a bit lower than you may expect because these appraisers are being a lot more conservative than they used to be because property values were inflated for so long, now they are just taking a different approach. >> thanks so much. appreciate that. checking our top stories now, dominique strauss-kahn now faces sex charges in france. as expected, a lawyer for a french journalist filed an attempted rape complaint in paris a short time ago. strauss-kahn, once the powerful head of the international monetary fund, is already fighting sexual assault charges in the united states but that case is in jeopardy due to questions about the credibility
of his accuser. u.s. officials suspect pakistan's intelligence service ordered the killing of a journalist after he reported on ties between al qaeda and the pakistani military. senior obama administration officials told "new york times" that intelligence surrounding the death of the pakistani journalist suggests he was killed to silence his criticism. pakistan denies the report. we will have much more on this coming up at the top of the hour. the u.s. secret service is now investigating the apparent hacking of fox news' political twitter feed. after false reports said president obama had been killed. fox says it's also pushing for a detailed investigation from twitter about how it happened and how to prevent future incidents. the false tweets remained on the site for hours before they were removed. proof that early cancer screenings save lives. the cdc just released a new report on one of the biggest killers in men. helps defends against occasional constipation, diarrhea,
early detection pays off in the fight against cancer. we know that. but there's a finding in a new report about colo-rectal cancer that came out today. senior medical correspondent elizabeth cohen joining me now. what's happening? >> i love having good news. i love having good news. which is that the number -- >> we are going to break away for just one moment. we do have confirmation of breaking news right now. the breaking news is that there does appear to be a verdict in the casey anthony trial. we are getting word, we have confirmed that there appears to be a verdict in the casey anthony trial, that verdict going to be announced at about 2:15. david mattingly is on the ground for us. david, what are you hearing, what do you know, what is the
mood? >> reporter: this is part of the promise that the courthouse staff has given us, given us 30 minutes warning of a verdict being read in the courtroom. that notice came down at 1:26 so a half hour from that time, we are expecting to be back in the courtroom and listening to this jury render its decision in the casey anthony trial. this was -- there was talk about today how long it would take. conventional wisdom had it that if they were able to reach a verdict relatively quickly, it would be a good sign for the prosecution. they felt if it took a long time, it would be an indication that there were problems on the jury, some kind of disagreement. but again, all conventional wisdom is frequently tossed on its head. just look at what happened with the o.j. case. we will be watching very closely to see what this jury decides. if they find her guilty of something, everyone is going to be looking to see if they have found her guilty of premeditated murder, murder in the first
degree, and that would make casey anthony eligible for the death penalty in the state of florida. >> what's interesting is the range of charges in this case. because there is also manslaughter of a child. some lawyers have said that could be a potential compromise verdict. for example, all evidence points to the fact that somehow she was involved or may have been involved. however, there could be -- what they decide on, there is a range of choice really in some respects, correct? >> reporter: that's right. there are lesser charges that they could be looking at if they decide not to go with first degree murder. there is murder in the second degree, there is manslaughter, there is aggravated child abuse, there is all sorts of combinations that the jury could be looking at here, varying by degree and varying by sentence. the only one that carries the death penalty is the premeditated murder, first degree murder. lower versions of that like murder in the second degree, aggravated child abuse, those
carry possibly 30 years. there is one that might carry possibly life. so all of these, very long time for her. >> what's interesting, we put up a graphic which you may or may not be able to see. just to clarify also, what has to be decided, is this first degree murder. is this aggravated manslaughter of a child, aggravated child abuse, then clearly, there are the charges of lying to police and all of those have to be voted on by the jury. i was speaking to richard herman yesterday, our lawyer, and he said basically what will happen, the jury tends to go into the room, they take a vote on some of the charges, they may ask to see new evidence, but the jury as far as you know did not send out any sort of a note, correct? they didn't need clarification on any of the charges, they didn't need prosecutors to explain further any of the evidence or sort of point out any evidence. so really, they have been very self-contained and have not needed any sort of guidance from
the court, correct? >> reporter: that's right. that has been something of a surprise here. they did not send out one notice, not one single question to the court about any of the evidence they had before them. and they had 33 days of testimony. they heard from scores of witnesses. it sounds like toward the end of this trial, they were considering everything they had in front of them and they were already making up their minds before they went into that jury room. be interesting to find out later when some of these jurors decide to go public and tell us what was going on inside that room, how they came about making this decision and how much agreement or disagreement they had in that room. >> what's also interesting is that casey anthony during this trial, i think it surprised -- or during this period, i should say, some people were surprised she was actually sitting in the courtroom, but in fact, a lot of defendants, that's where they are allowed to be. they don't need to be off in a different room. they don't need to be in any sort of a holding area.
they are allowed to be sort of front and center and that's where casey anthony was today, waiting, just waiting like everybody else. what was the sense of her demeanor, anybody in the court there who was kind of watching her during this time? >> reporter: casey anthony cannot blink without somebody watching her in that courtroom. she has been very closely watched this entire trial. today, it was a little unusual. as we looked at her before the jurors came in, to hear from the judge and before they went into deliberating today, they were all -- before they came into the courtroom, casey anthony was sitting there. she seemed somewhat agitated. she was in a very animated conversation with one of her defense attorneys. she was gesturing like there was something she disagreed about or something that was bothering her. we just don't know what was going on there. but again, she's been very intensely watched in this very intensely watched trial, and yesterday we noticed there were bags under her eyes. she was very serious looking.
you can tell this trial has taken a toll on her. i doubt that she's been sleeping very well, particularly these past couple of days, as the prosecution has really been hammering home to the jury their notion of why this happened. and they say this murder happened because casey anthony yearned for a simpler, carefree life of partying and this little girl that she had that everyone testified she was a good mother and loved her child, but the prosecution says that she wanted this child out of the way because little caylee anthony was getting in her way of the life that she wanted to have. that was the first time that all of the information we had was brought together by the prosecution to give us why, the motive behind this, and that was a very powerful moment for the jury, and the prosecution had the last word in this. that was the last thing that the jurors heard before they went into that room. >> sure.
stay with us for one moment. we will bring in holly hughes, our legal expert here, to talk a little more about this case. first of all, we have the charge sheet here. these are basically all the charges that the jury has to go through. they go through them one at a time. what goes on in that room? they didn't send out any notes so it seems that whatever the case was was pretty clearly presented. what is happening now? >> what they did, when they went back there, was they got all of their notes out, they sat down, they elected a foreman and they were ready to go. they took that charging document you were just talking about, the indictment. the indictment's just the fancy term for the piece of paper that the state hands to the court and says we're charging her with these crimes. doesn't mean guilty or innocent but it means we think she's guilty and we want the chance to prove it. so the jurors took that indictment, they went in the back with that piece of paper. they took that book of instructions that we've seen the judge give them called the jury charge, and they said these are
the elements of the first charge, first degree murder. now, what evidence was presented that proves to us it's first degree murder. so they would have gone element by element, crime by crime. somebody would have said somebody testified to this, somebody testified to that, and that's how they reach a verdict. >> talk to me about the length of decision, the time it took for these men and women to reach a verdict. in your experience, is it short, is it long? how do you view that? >> i actually think this is probably right around where it should be, because we all remember the o.j. simpson trial went on for a year and a half presenting evidence and in less than a day they had a verdict. you're thinking to yourself okay, but you couldn't possibly have reviewed the evidence. you didn't take it seriously. you all had your minds made up so you weren't following instructions. no matter what you thought about guilt or innocence, you thought the process was not done properly. in this particular instance, what we did see, you pointed it out, was a very clear presentation of evidence from the state and they're the ones with the burden of proof. they got up there, they said this is what we're going to show
you, they showed the jury and then they said at the end, and this is what we have shown you and they sat down. so i think this ten hours is right -- it's the time for them to go through everything and come to a decision. >> okay. we're looking at a picture of the hallway there, we will likely see folks coming out. i want to bring in dave mattingly, who is there for us. dave, let me ask you, the judge said he was going to give 30 minutes warning before a verdict came out. who are you seeing move towards that courtroom, have the parents, have casey anthony's parents gone very far away, are they hovering outside? what are you seeing out there? >> reporter: we have not seen casey anthony's parents today. we have been watching the camera in the hallway outside the courtroom. there is one camera positioned there. there's a camera positioned inside the media room, where all the reporters are sitting waiting after this trial for the jurors to come out and speak, then there's the camera inside the courtroom, that inside the courtroom camera is not up at
this point. but again, a big mad scramble when that word came down. so many news outlets here, so many members of the public here, very interested to see how this turns out and now, the lucky people who stood in line yesterday to get passes into the courtroom for today will have a front row seat to be there when this verdict is read. this case has been making headlines since 2008, when this little girl caylee anthony first went missing, and it was such an emotional time. people got caught up in the search for her then and then all the strange information coming out about the mother not reporting her missing for a month, and from there on, it just kept getting bigger and bigger and bigger until we got to this trial. >> it's interesting what you say, because just talking to people about this case, if you haven't followed it, you may wonder why all the drama but the truth is, as you begin to follow it step by step by step, there are so many twists and so many turns, and even the story of
casey anthony herself, never knowing what direction it's going to go in. let me ask holly, when we think about all of this, the drama behind this, that a mother might be able to, as prosecutors allege, what do you think the hold is on people about this case? >> this case is fascinating for two reasons. it's not just the legalities and the brand new cutting edge science. it is the humanity in this case. it is the psychological twists and turns. we see a young mother behaving in a way that is so strange to us. we have seen unfortunately, in covering these cases, that mothers kill their children a lot. it happens a lot in this country. people kill people they love all the time. but what we have here is a young woman who not only, according to the state, killed her child, but then went on to live this raucus lifestyle of partying and
drinking and entering hot body contests, for 31 days, and we're all thinking to ourselves how did you ever believe you were going to get away with your child is gone and no one's going to question that? this is not a young woman who was on her own struggling in a city where she knew nobody. she lived at home, for goodness' sakes, with her parents who loved that baby and doted on that baby. so therefore, we're fascinated that she thinks she can get away with this. and then as it unfolds, as it goes further and we meet the mother, and we meet the father, and we meet the brother, they're all characters. >> even watching the interaction between them during those jailhouse meetings, you know, just to see the body dynamic, i guess what you can call the suspicion on the part of the parents looking at this. david, i want to ask you out there, what do we know? obviously the names of the jurors have been kept out of the media. but what do we know about the individuals in terms of their
makeup, their jobs, for example, their age range? what do you know? >> reporter: they range in age from 32, which is the youngest, to retirement age, about 65. we are looking at seven women, five men, some of them professionals, an i.t. worker, a retired nurse's aide, a retired nurse, a nursing student, a man who works for a cell phone company. they just have average jobs, average walks of life. people who would not be rising to ranks of celebrity as some of them are about to do should they choose to go public. at this point, they have been protected from the public view. you have not seen them on camera. the only way to see these jurors is to actually sit in the courtroom. but publicly, we don't know their names. outside of the courtroom, we don't know what they look like. they can try to go back to their private lives after this but
it's anticipated that some of them will come forward to step in front of the cameras to say who they are and how they came about doing their decision. and the court has actually had a stage and microphone set up with seats in the room with the juror number marked on each one of the seats for them to sit down after this trial is over, to have a group press conference if they want. of course, they can opt out of that and try to go back to their lives, their jobs. >> it's going to be tough. it's going to be tough. absolutely. even the judge yesterday said, we can see a bunch of folks here filing into the courtroom, but even the judge said yesterday that a lot of show bookers, what we call bookers, had already descended down on the courthouse and they are the ones really who are aggressive at trying to get folks on to all those different morning shows. you're absolutely right. we're going to be hearing from some of those jurors potentially, whether they can sort of fade back into potential
anonymity is to be determined. one of the things i was talking about this morning is -- we will be joined also by diane dimond in a quick moment. this is really the first time they had to talk about this. the judge said you can't talk about -- you cannot talk about it until i tell you you can. so this is -- they had all this evidence bottled up inside of them and now they're like okay, what do you think, what do you think. >> exactly. the other thing we need to point out for our viewers is what's unusual with this group is they have been together for six weeks, not being able to talk about the evidence. it's been presented to them all day, and not being able to have any social activity, no radio, no internet, no phone, no tv. what have they done? they have bonded. they have talked about their family life. they have talked about children. they have talked about their dreams and their aspirations. they are a cohesive group which in most juries you don't get. these folks come in, here's some evidence, go home to their lives, come back the next day. there's not that opportunity to
get to know each other and now that they've done it, that's out of the way. they can get in that room, get down to the business of it and they are going to treat each other with a little more respect because now they like each other. they have had that opportunity. >> and you wonder whether in fact that's contributed to this speed and efficiency at which they reached this verdict. i want to bring in diane dimond. you have followed some major cases in your day. watching this, looking at the potential or the verdict return and what its potential outcome could be, what is your sense about what will happen? >> reporter: well, i tell you, i learned long ago never to make a prediction about what a jury might do. but i do find it absolutely compelling that it's been, what, 11 hours over just two days. this of course after a almost seven-week long trial. and this jury did not send out any notes. it did not say to judge perry could we please come back in the
courtroom and hear that videotape again or that audio tape. this is a jury that seems pretty darned cohesive from the get-go to reach a major decision like this in only 11 hours. i'm frankly stunned. >> it is interesting, i think having covered a number of trials myself, you're always waiting for that note, because you're trying to get a glimpse into what the jurors might be thinking. are they conflicted about a piece of information, is something not clear. but again, when you think about this, the closings, is that the starting point for most of these jurors? when they go back in the room, is it like well, here's what he said and here's what -- more so than let's start from the very beginning? is it that they start at the end and kind of work their way back? >> reporter: you know, every single jury goes about it in a different way, because they don't get in the room and there's a list of things like okay, first pick a foreman. okay, now make, you know, a vote.
people i think have the wrong impression about how juries work. each one is so unique. so i imagine from what i have talked with other jurors who have gone through this, they get in a room and they all look around and go okay, here we are, what's everybody think. and they go around the table and they get a feeling. now if that feeling is i think she did it, or you know, i have some doubts, then that's where they start. but remember, this particular jury, deb, has -- had seven different counts to go through. so that they polled each other, they took votes, they lingered over seven individual counts. it tells me that they were all pretty much in agreement. there has not been a lot of time for dispute here. >> when you think about it -- >> reporter: if i was casey anthony, i would be worried right now. >> when you think about it, if you break it down, it took, if you want to do an equation, it
took maybe about an hour and a half for the jury to figure out each count against casey anthony. david mattingly is out there for us. david, 30 minutes, little less than 30 minutes away from finding out what the verdict against casey anthony is going to be. what are you seeing out there in terms of some of the people? obviously there's always that expectation that lingers in the air about what's going to happen. what are you seeing? >> reporter: well, the people who can get inside the courtroom, the lucky people who have passes to get in there today, they are going in there. the people outside, this has been something of a tourist attraction over this holiday weekend, people coming by just to see the place where this trial was taking place. crowds not nearly as large today. there was not a large group of people lingering outside in the courtyard outside of the courthouse today. we have known that, however,
there are people, sightseers if you want to call them that, going through the neighborhood where casey anthony's parents live, going to see the place where little caylee's body was discovered in the woods in that swampy area near the anthony home. authorities there have had people on site to keep traffic directed and they said that when a -- when the jury was going to come back with a verdict, that they were going to shut off traffic to that neighborhood because the residents were concerned they were just going to be inundated with onlookers. they wanted to make sure that only people getting into that neighborhood for some time will be the people who live there. but in just the past couple days, we have been watching a makeshift memorial grow in the woods where her body was discovered, stuffed animals, cards, people letting the family and everyone know that their hearts are with this little girl during this decision-making time. >> it's interesting because prosecutors absolutely made that point throughout the entire trial, certainly through closing arguments, and that is they made
sure that nobody forgot who this little girl was. they made sure that her picture was there, that the humanity, the human element, was always there. speaking of that, holly, one thing, this has got to be casey anthony sitting there, waiting for this verdict, whatever happens, but cindy and george anthony must be frantic at this point. they have lost their granddaughter. if the jury returns a verdict of not innocent, which is going to happen in -- or the verdict coming down in 25 minutes, they could lose their daughter, too. >> you know, deb, i have prosecuted death penalty cases. i have prosecuted serial rapists. what i tell everybody is there are no winners. even if it's a guilty verdict. because let's look at what really happened.
a 2 1/2 precious little baby lost her life. when we think about what's about to happen, her mother baby lost life. her mother may face the death penalty, or her mother may go free and there may not be justice for those who feel she's guilty. and this is a day we will look back on and we will remember two things. we will remember that we were horrified and heartbroken. no matter what happens, we're horrified at the death of this baby, and we're heartbroken for the players, because there could be no doubt in anyone's mind that george and cindy anthony were crazy in love with that little girl, and they loved their daughter. even with this horrible accusation that george abused her, and lee abused her, somebody was asking earlier, do you think they would go and visit her in jail? i do. that is their daughter, their child, and they gave birth to
her and raised her and no matter how horrified or heartbroken, they will be able to continue to love her and they will somewhere in time be able to forgive her. no matter what the verdict, nobody wins and somebody is going to be absolutely torn apart. >> diane diamond, joining us by phone, i think one of the big questions everybody has, depending on what the verdict is, is the question of why, the question of why. there are so many options, so many alternatives. the question is why, why does somebody feel the only way to live their life or move forward is doing something this dramatic. what is your experience shown? >> well, you know, you're assuming facts here deb that she did in fact -- kill, murder her daughter, with chloroform and then tape over her mouth. that's such a deep question,
deb. i don't know how to answer it. i have been in so many courtrooms watching so many defendant's who have done such despicable things to other human beings, and that's always the big umbrella question, why? why did you feel that you had to kill your wife? why didn't you just walk away? in this instance, i am going to -- i am writing about this now for "the daily beast." i think the defense made a huge mistake in grabbing such a complicated scenario for this jury. there was a drowning, and the grandfather got vavinvolved, an the grandfather hid the body away, and by the way, he molested her, and so did the brother -- i am assuming she will be found guilty, and i covered this case from the beginning and it doesn't look
good for this young woman. when her own attorney admits she's a liar, a habitual pathological liar that has imaginary friends, and i think she found her daughter in the pool and panicked because she's mentally ill, that would have been a better defense. >> with a defense attorney, okay, a defense attorney is supposed to listen to the story that their client tells them. if that's the story that casey anthony told, then isn't that the story that no matter how convoluted he had to move forward with? diane makes a very good point. he did this and he did that and all the allegations out there that nobody has to prove during the course of the trial, but
doesn't he have to go with what she is allegedly telling him happened? >> well, yes and no. diane, she just put it out there exactly right. let's remind the viewers, in a criminal trial, the defense has absolutely no burden of proof. they did not have to stand up and do anything, and there's something that they could do if their client absolutely insists you must tell my story, this is my story, and this is strategically what they could have done. waited for the state to get done completely giving their evidence, and then stand up in the reserving, and then you say i want to reserve my opening until the end of the state's case. when you see what the state put up, you say i have enough to argue reasonable doubt, i can poke holes in the forensicforend then you decide if you want to go forward and put up the evidence. then you fully investigate it.
i don't see all that happening here. clearly the defendant does not have to testify. she has an absolute constitutional right to sit there silent. you have to ask yourself as an attorney, a defense attorney, if we do not put her on the stand who else can get the evidence admitted, and if it cannot be admitted you cannot stand up and say this is what we're going to show you -- >> i want to take a quick look. you can see right there, that's the inside of the courtroom. that is a live picture. and in the pack, as they have been sitting throughout the whole trial, george and casey anthony, and you can see george seeming to look away a little bit. you wonder whether -- i'm sorry, george and cindy. i apologize. you see george sitting there, and you wonder if they are trying to make eye contact with casey, and to be in that position as parents, to be in that position as parents has been so difficult, because the
impression that i got from listening to the case, there were times that they were defending casey, and they wanted to be good parents. they were saying, you know, you have got to be responsible. again, as we await this verdict, which is less than 20 minutes away, sitting there, they understand that there is a good likelihood that depending on what the jury comes back with, clearly their lives will never be the same, regardless of what the verdict is. it cannot be. they can never go back to the time before. >> and their lives have not been the same since june 16th of 2008. and they never will. there is no going back from this and there is no true recovering from this. they will move on and learn to adapt and deal with whatever situation, whether they are visiting their daughter on death row, or whether she is acquitted and trying to rebuild some kind of relationship in light of what she said about them. but you can better believe this,
deb, they are terrified right now. >> they have got to be. >> those parents are sitting there and they are absolutely terrified. every single one of us can understand that. we know where they are coming from, whether you like them or dislike them or whether you think they lied about something or whether you think they could have done a better job raising their daughter. as a human being with a heart, and even as a prosecutor, i felt sorry for the defendant's family. i knew i was about to ask the jury to send their life away without parole. >> it's never easy. family is family and you do the best you can with your children and you hope that your efforts and a little faith and luck will work out in your favor. david mattingly is outside the courthouse for us. i want to go back to you, david, and you heard the closings, and you have heard the various elements. to you out there in the thick of it, what impressed you the most,
vis-a-vis the closings, whether it be jose baez coming out strong. >> reporter: we had 33 days of testimony. both sides had different scenarios, and one saying one didn't know what they were talking about and the other saying they didn't know when they were talking about, and you wouldn't know what to think. it was not until the closing arguments when these attorneys got up there and got passionate and summed up everything they were telling the jury and a very digestible scenarios where you got the point of what they were doing. jose baez, very, very passionate. fighting for the life of casey anthony. going expert by expert, discrediting the best he could just about every expert the
prosecution brought up to the stand. remember the huge moment of jose baez brought up the possibility that it was casey anthony's father that put the duct tape over caylee's mouth after the swimming pool drowning, and it was that moment when he looked over and saw the prosecutor, jeff ashton smiling. he pointed at him, and he said it doesn't matter what i think or what laughing guy here, and at that moment, the judge stopped everything. that moment let you know how hard these two sides were fighting. the judge said enough is enough, and that happens again, anything like that happens again and you will be out of the courtroom for the rest of the trial. >> we're coming up to 2:00, and i want to bring everybody up-to-date if you are just joining us. there has been a verdict reached in the casey anthony trial. we're expecting the verdict to
be read beginning at 2:15. casey anthony stands charged in the death of her 2 1/2-year-old daughter, caylee anthony, and the jury took 22 hours to come to an agreement on all seven charges. capital murder, aggravated child abuse and manslaughter of a child and lying to police. took them just about a day. they got the case yesterday after prosecutors had a chance to finish their closing rebuttal arguments, and the judge gave them instructions and sent them on their way. this was a group that was not allowed to talk about the case. they have been together for more than six weeks and they were not allowed to talk about anything related to the case, until the judge gave them the okay and said okay, go ahead. casey anthony in that courtroom, and her mom and father also in that courtroom.
the tension must be just enormous inside there. holly, let's talk about, you know, when we -- actually, let me just go to david mattingly who is there for us. david, when you think about the points that were made, and when you think about how prosecutors ended this by saying who stood to gain, whose life would return back to normal. cindy was a loving and doting grandmother, and they read george anthony's suicide letter, and they noticed how his handwriting started to deteriorate, not only because of what happened to his granddaughter but his family as well, and casey anthony in all of this, testimony there that gave the jury things to think about. >> reporter: that's right. this family, regardless of how this turns out, it has literally gone through held.
they have been used both as a sword and as a shield during this trial. their actions have been questioned. their motivations have been questioned. -- >> jose baez there, casey anthony's lawyer walking into the courtroom. he mounted the best defense he could. continue, david. >> reporter: well, talking about jose baez. remember after this trial is over, the judge has the option of pursuing contempt charges against him from problems they had earlier in the trial. the prosecution complained that he was putting witnesses up on the stand that were not filling out the reports telling prosecutors what they would testify about. he broke the rule more than once according to the judge and found it to be willful. he has problems after the trial for himself. about the anthony family, we
have heard them, about them used as evidence of a loving family, and used as evidence of their behavior, potential sexual abuse, and things like that as contributing factors to potential behavior. we have seen them torn apart in so many different ways. their personal lives absolutely dissected. cindy anthony possibly committing perjury as she was on the stand, talking about that she was the one who was searching for information about chloroform and not her daughter that day when experts later came back up on the stand for prosecution, and she said she was definitely, definitely at work that day. so this family both taking their lumps -- >> there is casey anthony walking back into the courtroom. she had left for a little while, but she is coming in. you look at her demeanor, and she's talking to one of her lawyers there and shaking her
head. i am so stunned, really, by the transformation in this young lady from the beginning of this -- all of this, when they first found caylee to right now. i mean, even when has happened in the last three years, she was so vibrant and energetic, and she really seemed to convey the energy and the thirst and a love for life, and then the pictures as a mother towards the little girl, and the stories about what kind of a mother she was, a little different. but now she's sitting here and now she knows that everything that has happened, that dozens and dozens of hours of testimony, this is when it comes down to the final. richard herman is joining us to weigh in on the story. richard, i have been speaking to holly hughes, and diane and
david mattingly outside the courthouse. you have been in this position as a defense lawyer. describe it to me. it has to be excruciating. >> cannot describe it. i stand up next to men, powerful men, and supreme businessmen controlling hundreds of employees and businesses, and they are quivering in their pants standing there. when that jury comes in and you know it's coming down, and your life is at stake, you can't get a breath in you. your heart is punching through your chest. i will tell you the truth and i am sure the other lawyers will tell you if they take the verdicts. when i stand there and take the verdict, the same thing is happening to me. it's absolutely -- it's a surreal experience. and this is going to be bad for her. this is absolutely going to be murder. and she's got to know it. somebody had to have told her if they came back this quick it's going to be murder.
no way out for her. >> do you see a series of appeals coming down? do you see -- clearly on some levels, and i don't mean to be cavalier about this, but on some levels the worst thing is waiting for the unknown, waiting to find out what happens. once at least the verdict is read, perhaps in a way it just -- it releases just the agony of the unknown. is that fair? >> i don't think that's fair in this case, deb. this is going to be a death penalty verdict. i mean, you know, baez -- this is the payback for baez. this is why there have been so many defense attorneys critical of his performance and his all-or-nothing approach in that opening statement, which this is an absolute rejection of the jury of the tactics of baez, and they're taking it out on the client. >> again, we have to wait for the verdict. we have to see what it is.
and clearly, and how they come down, holly hughes, any possibility it could be a compromised verdict if the jury does not feel that they want to move towards death on this given the age of casey anthony? what do you think? >> absolutely. we can sit here as pundits, and richard and i have tried these cases and been in these courtrooms and had these jurors and picked them ourselves and as much as we want to think we know what they're thinking, we don't. you have 12 strangers in a room and asking them to make -- not right now, because right now they are not supposed to be considering sentencing, just working on guilt or innocence. they know if they return a first degree, ultimately they will be asked should a human being live or die? and think about the pressure? i talk about our jury system like this, and i say go into any random place, the airport or mall, and pick 12 folks at
random and put them in a room and see if they agree on what to have for lunch unanimously. now you are taking 12 citizens, and you're saying make a decision if a young woman lives or dies. we don't know what they will do. >> it's a recommendation. the jury can recommend the death penalty. it doesn't mean it has to be unanimous either. they have to recommend it. it's a recommendation. clearly the most serious charges. diane diamond, waiting patiently on the phone. you're writing an article for "the daily beast." what has it been that you found, what has been the oh-my-god moment. >> my moment came before the trial started. she took 31 days to tell anybody the child was missing and the child is 2 years old. that's an enormous hurdle for
the jury. it was not casey anthony that called the police, it was casey anthony's mother after she tracked her down at her boyfriend's house. there are seven mothers and five men, and some have grandchildren and some are grandparents. two or three of them are very religious people. there are nurses, and others in the public health industries that i think that is going to resonate with them more than any forensics, and more than any hair-banning analysis, and more than the trunk air analysis that smelled of the human decomp in the trunk, she did not report her child missing for 31 days. >> what is interesting, the prosecution commented on that because her facebook log in was
called timer 55, and casey anthony knew how many days she had to stonewall her mother. it was 55 days from the moment that she allegedly knew that caylee anthony was missing to the time of caylee's birthday. 55 days. prosecutors made the point to say she did everything that she could, i have a wealthy boyfriend and she has a daughter that is caylee's age, and don't bother me, i am getting my life together. all of these things a factor. i need to recap who we have got. our distinguished panel. holly hues, and diane diamond, and david mattingly who is on the ground, and richard herman, also a criminal defense lawyer. the dynamic of the jury. what is, from your experience, the kind of jury you want in
this case? is it a sympathetic jury? it is a completely objective jury? is it an unemotional jury? what do you want? >> the conventional wisdom of what prosecutors want in a jury, is they want stable, serious people. people rooted in the community and people that held jobs for a long time and people who have been married for a long time and people who have children and grandchildren. the defense want people who are perhaps more highly educated. this certainly seems like a good prosecution jury by those standards. but, you know, i just think that it's important to recognize how wrong we can be about these stereotypes. just to give you one example of a piece of trial lawyer folklore. one of the classic pieces of
fork lower. you can expect eight days of deliberations here. we had more than an eight-week trial, and we will have essentially two days of deliberations. the jury obviously made up their minds very quickly here, and we're going to hear in about three minutes according to my watch. >> it's a day of deliberation for every week, and in this particular case, it's almost like a little over an hour for every charge. so looking at that. and when we go -- richard, the state has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt murder, but they don't have to agree on whether it was premedicated or they don't have to agree on technically the type of murder. does that work in casey anthony's favor or against her? richard? >> jeff ashton said it yesterday, and this is what any jurors who were on the fence fell into today with their vote. can you hold her for murder if you believe she actually
overdosed caylee. an accidental overdose would equal felony murder and get you to murder. that's what happened here. i don't care what the makeup is of the jury. this was an emotionally charged case. you heard lawyers argue left and right and it raises passion everywhere you go. this jury went with their emotions on the case, and they took the evidence and bought in to every argument by the prosecution, and the defense was -- well, there really was no defense. you make these promises in an opening to the jury, and then don't live up to them, and this is what happens. >> obviously, that's the danger. everybody, we're less than two minutes away technically from when that jury is expected to walk into the room and deliver the verdict. this has been more than three years coming, and little caylee anthony, her birthday in the beginning of august, and
basically everybody will know including her parents. what role if any her mother had in that particular death. we're waiting for the verdict to come down. and david mattingly, who is out there, you know, you obviously after this happens, there's going to be a mad rush for jurors. what is the expectation? are there chase crews set up all over the place? hold on a second, david. they are standing, and that means most likely the judge is here. go ahead, dave. >> reporter: well, they have had a room set up here at the courthouse for those jurors for days now. we may find out very soon what they're going to do. >> let's take a listen. >> both sides ready to proceed? >> the state is ready to proceed, your honor? >> defense? >> the defense is ready. >> to those in the gallery, please do not express any signs
will the defendant rise along with counsel. madam clerk, you may public the verdicts. >> thank you, judge. in the circuit court for the ninth judicial circuit in and for orange county florida, the state of florida versus casey marie anthony as to case 2008, as to the charge of first-degree murder, verdict as to count one, we the jury find the defendant not guilty so say we all, in orlando, orange county florida, july 5th, signed the foreperson. as to aggravated child abuse, we the jury find the defendant not
guilty, so say we all, orange county florida, this fifth day of july, 2011, signed foreperson. as to the charge of aggravated manslaughter of a child, verdict as to count three, we the jury found the defendant not guilty, so say we all, dated in orlando, orange county, florida, dated this 5th of july, 2011. signed foreperson. we the jury find the defendant guildy as providing false information as charged in the indictment. so say we all, signed the foreperson. as for the charge of providing false information as to count five, we the jury find the defendant guilty of providing
false information. as to the charge of providing false information to a law enforcement officer verdict as to count six, we the jury find the defendant guilty of providing false information to a law enforcement officer as charged in the indictment, so say we all, dated orlando, orange county, florida, this 5th day of july, 2011, signed foreperson. as to the charge of providing false information to a law enforcement officer, the verdict as to count 7, we the jury find the defendant guilty as providing false information to the law enforcement officers charged in the indictment, so say we all, dated on this 5th day of july, 2011, signed foreperson. >> madam clerk, you may poll the jury.
>> jury number one, were these your true and correct verdicts? were they sxaul true correct verdicts? >> yes. >> jury number two, were these true and correct verdicts? >> yes. >> jury number three, were these your true and correct verdicts? >> yes. >> jury number four, were these your true and correct verdicts? >> yes. >> jury number five, were these your true and correct verdicts? >> yes. >> jury number seven, were these true and correct verdicts? >> yes. >> verdict number eight, were these your true and correct verdicts? >> yes. >> verdict number nine, were these true and correct verdicts? >> yes. >> verdict number ten, were these true and correct verdicts? >> yes. >> jury number 11, were these your true and correct verdicts. >> yes. >> and jury number 12, were these your true and correct
verdicts? >> yes. >> counsel, will you approach the podium. not all counsel, but just the representative sample. >> casey marie anthony, the jury of your peers have found you not guilty as to the charge contained in count one of the indictment, murder in the first degree. at this time i will judge you to be not guilty. as to count two, the crime of aggravated child abuse, a jury of your peers have found you to be not guilty, and the court will ajudge you to be not guilty of the crime contained in count two. as to count three, aggravated manslaughter of a child. a jury of your peers have found
you not guilty. i will ajudge you to be not guilty of that count. as to counts four, five, six, and seven, providing false information to a law enforcement officer, i will adjudge you to be guilty of those counts and order that you be fingerprinted in open court at this time. it has to be in open court.
mr. baez, mr. mason, will you prepared to go to sentencing thursday or friday of this week? >> thursday. >> okay. we will set sentencing thursday at 9:00 a.m. in this courtroom. okay. are there any other matters that we need to take up at this time? >> nothing from the state, your honor. >> ladies and gentlemen of the jury, on behalf of the citizens
of the ninth judicial circuit, i will like for you to express my sincere thanks and appreciation for your service as jurors. you are residents of this county in florida. we came over there, met with you, and questioned you, and took you away from your families for a very extended period of time, and for that i say thank you. as i told you when i first spoke with you, in talking about jury service that one of the most important obligations of citizenship in my opinion was service on a jury. i told you it was very important that if we believe in that constitutional provision, that provision that provides a right to trial by jury, that it was
important for people to serve no matter what that sacrifice would be. as you can tell by some of the questions that some folks answered, a lot of people did not want to serve. and you knew it would be a hardship, and you were candid with the attorneys. you answered all those questions and you served, and for that we thank you. i would also wish to advise you of some very special privileges enjoyed by jurors. no juror can be required to talk about the discussions that occurred in the jury room except by court order. for many centuries, our society has relied upon jurors for consideration of difficult cases. we have recognized for hundreds of years that the jury's
deliberations and discussions and vote shall remain their private affairs as long as they wish it. therefore the law gives you a unique privilege to not speak about your jury work, although you are at liberty to speak about anybody about your deliberatio deliberations, and you are at liberty to refuse to speak to anybody. a request to discuss either your verdict or your deliberations may come from those who are simply curious or from those who might seek to find fault with you. from the media, from attorneys or elsewhere, it will be up to you to decide whether to preserve your privacy as jurors. again, thank you. you are here by discharged and i will see you shortly back in the jury room. thank you. >> all rise for the jurors.
>> you may be seated. this court is in recess. >> and there you see, casey antho anthony. recap, she was found not guilty of first-degree murder, and not guilty of aggravated manslaughter, and not guilty of aggravated child abuse. she is there hugging her attorneys. her mother and father were in the courtroom. there was no reaction. they did not hug each other. they did not hold each other. they walked up, and -- got up and walked up moments after the verdict was read. casey anthony found not guilty
on the most serious charges of murder, manslaughter and child abuse. she was found guilty of lying to investigators. she will be serving time for those lies, but is that a misdemeanor, and it's a much shorter sentence. watch the reaction there of casey anthony. jose baez got a lot of criticism, saying he did not try this case well, but he got the outcome, the best possible outcome, it would seem from the perspective of casey anthony. i wants to go to our legal panel. we have a good one. we're working with jeff tubin, and holly hues. first of all, jeff, there in new york. looking at her here, what is your reaction to this verdict? >> she won and the government lost. those four counts you mentioned that she was convicted of as you say are misdemeanors. you do not get a prison sentence. so the fact that the sentencing
is just come on thursday, two days from now suggests that there will not be much to this sentencing. this is a woman who was looking at the possibility of the death penalty. they sought the death penalty against this woman and she got convicted of four misdemeanors. this is an enormous victory, for better or worse, for casey anthony. >> are you telling us, casey anthony could serve no prison time? >> that would be my expectation. she could get probation. there are almost no prisoners in new york state, which is the state that i know best, who are in prison for misdemeanors. if there are others that no
better about florida law, i hope they jump in. but misdemeanors are not prison cases in my experience. in new york and most other states, i would suspect she would not get jail time. >> and she also -- she's served three years. she already served three years. >> yeah, she won't get anytime. three years -- i don't know why her lawyers didn't make a motion to get her out today. >> and what was your expectation and what is your reaction? >> i feel like i was reliving the michael jackson trial, because i was going to say she was going to get acquitted. i thought the evidence was overwhelming for casey anthony. two things stuck in my mind. the jury was tired. i don't think they will have a consensus that the state was able to prove its case of murder against casey. i think at some point in time the jury might have turned on jeff ashton. he came across, laughing and arrogant, and i think that went against him and i think mr. baez
obviously, he got the jury to believe in him and his client. it was an astounding day. but our system works, and i am proud as a defense attorney that under the constitution you are innocent unless proven guilty. casey anthony should have been released today. i am surprised the attorneys did not make an immediate motion for her. >> in las vegas, you thought she was going down on all counts. in fact, she was found not guilty. what is your reaction? >> well, i just passed out. i am reviving myself. as i was saying, baez did a wonderful job in my defense of her. no, i have to give my apologies. i was wrong. baez was wriright. i did not always agree with his tactics. what is the rule of thumb in a defensive murder case? this is an outstanding victory. first of all, i a agree with
debra and jeff. why didn't they make an application for release right now. she will get time served. number two, i agree with debra. if you look at the opening of baez and watch that again on video, all you see in the background is ashton shaking his head, no, no, no. we tell our clients, make no gestures like that, and don't do that. and here is the prosecutor, so animated and juvenile throughout the entire trial. i am convinced some jurors fell on that. the medical examiner, wonderful dr. g, what was the cause of death? i don't know, there is no cause of death. this is a first-degree murder case. >> yeah, but again, doesn't it go back to that, everybody. doesn't it go back to the fact that what jose baez said is do not look at this case on emotion, look at this case on evidence. you don't have a cause of death. what you have is circumstantial
evidence, but nothing that every linked casey directly to the event as it happened regardless of her lies and regardless of the tales that she spun. holly hughes, you gasped at the verdict. >> i am stunned. richard said he was wrong about baez, i don't know that we were wrong about bye-baez, and maybe jury felt sorry because of the defense. who knows? yet, we all got it wrong. debra is right, this system works. it's the best system in the world. it's what we have. >> debra, let me ask you -- you said that basically, you know, that it wasn't there. what in your opinion made you
believe that there was no way a jury was going to find her guilty of this murder when circumstancely it seemed like such a strong case? >> i see the headlines and want to steal what i am going to say right now. this became the leap of faith case for both sides. it was the leap of faith case for the prosecution to basically say go in that middle area and i'll help you complete the picture. it was the defense saying with mr. mason, i believe, it was brilliant with the charts. the leap of faith saying you cannot have that leap of faith of guilt because of the reasonable doubt. the reasonable doubt cannot get you on that leap of faith case. so this will be the leap of faith case where reasonable doubt, this will be taught in school, and mr. baez, i applaud you, you did an outstanding job because you threw the kitchen sink against the wall and something stuck. something stuck.
>> we're looking at live pictures outside the courthouse there. it is by all accounts quiet and subdued -- >> they're stunned. >> this is it right now. but david mattingly, you have been out there for three weeks. you spoke to a lot of people, and i listen to people screaming out and saying things about casey anthony. what is your sense there? describe the mood right now. >> reporter: i can tell you that building up to this, one of the things that drove people to the trial in such large numbers, and kept their attention so closely for the past few weeks was the fact that they wanted to see justice for this little girl, little kcaylee anthony, and her body found decomposed in the florida swamp. they wanted to see justice for this little girl. and now with this verdict, her mother is found not guilty, and there is no justice for caylee.
now, is that something that is going to be leaving a lot of people hanging. i don't think you will see interest in this case disappearing anytime soon. the only person more vindicated than casey anthony right now by this verdict is her attorney, jose baez. he was the target of so much criticism and so much armchair quarterbacking over the last few weeks, accused of setting the bar too high and creating a different scenario of what happened here that he couldn't prove. but in the end, he went before that jury in the most powerful statement he made as he was going through every single of the big witnesses the prosecution had, pointing out the holes in their testimony and questioning their motivation, and questioning the tactics and questioning their methodology, everything, and he pointed to the jury and said this is where reasonable doubt lives. >> now, reasonable doubt --
>> reporter: the fact that the jury came back with this verdict, yeah, tells us that that jury went in there unconvinced and not convinced by the circumstantial case that the prosecution had presented them. the last time we saw a big circumstantial case like this was scott peterson, and that came out differently, and people came out hating him, and people looked at the facts wanton. >> david just said the evidence came up short. now, you did not think so initially? >> no. >> why? explain what happened that the jury looked at this and said nice try, but no game. >> well, here is the bottom line. it's what we said. we never no what we are thinking. i still think it's a good circumstantial evidence case. i will not back up because they did not agree with me. i said what i thought the whole time. i think it could have been a
conviction. but what we need to do is listen to the jurors be interviewed. maybe they will say the science did not convince me, or if somebody pointed out, maybe jeff ashton's attitude turned him off, and maybe they felt sorry because they didn't know what jose was doing. maybe they had a kindergarten teacher that looked like casey anthony and they felt sorry for her. until we hear the reasoning we will not know. >> this is casey anthony right now. the verdict is being read. look at that. look at the effort to stay controlled. >> uh-huh. >> we the jury find the defendant not guilty, so say we all. as to the charge of aggravated manslaughter of a child. verdict as to count three. we the jury find the defendant not guilty, so say we all, dated in orlando, orange county, florida, this 5th day of july,
2011, signed foreperson. as to the charge of providing false information to a law enforcement officer, verdict as to count four, we the jury find the defendant guilty of providing false information to a law enforcement officer as charged in the indictment. so say we all, dated orlando, orange county, florida, this 5th day of july, 2011, signed foreperson. as to the charge of providing false information to a law enforcement -- >> and we just want to show you another picture in a different room, and that is the jurors, something has been set up for them. clearly the implication there is that some of the jurors agreed to talk, and agreed possibly to go through their reasonable process. it's organized and established. the judge, after he dismissed the jury said that he would see them in a few minutes. clearly a judge in this case will go back and thank and do all that kind of stuff. jeff toobin, i want to ask you,
clearly the prosecutors are not happy with this because they were so short, and what do you think was missing in this that just -- that the jury couldn't find -- came up with their decision? >> well, the pattern with jurors explaining their verdicts is that they almost never say that the conduct of the lawyers mattered one way or the other. i am almost certain you will hear that today. i don't think the lawyers matter that much. we who are following the cases pay attention to the lawyers, but the jurors always talk about the evidence. in this case the overwhelming piece of evidence that the defense had in its favor was no cause of death and no time of death. there was never even a theory of when or how or even -- why casey anthony killed her daughter.
there is certainly a lot of evidence that she behaved terribly. that she lied about all sorts of things. but in terms of murder, much less first-degree murder, intentional murder, there really was a big gap in the evidence. i certainly expect that when these jurors come to explain their verdict, the failure to prove a time of death or a cause of death will be a major, major factor. you cannot fault the prosecution for the absence of evidence. the evidence is what it is. but certainly i think those are the key facts in this acquittal. >> you can see a lot of people out there. it's interesting what david mattingly said. he said a lot of people who were convinced she was guilty will walk away with a sense of justice was not served. however, the jury came back and weighed the evidence, and in fact if you believe in the court system, justice was served based
on their review of all of the evidence. now the jurors are entering the room. let's take a room. >> this is defense team, and apparently the woman said no questions. let's take a listen and see what they're going to say. my name is dorothy sims, and i am thankful for today's verdict on behalf of casey anthony, and on behalf of all of the people that stand behind me. and i want to ask them to name their names, please. >> doreen. >> william.
>> michelle medina. >> sherman mason. >> [ inaudible ]. >> i hope this is a lesson to those of you who have indulged in media assassination for three years. biassed and prejudice and incompetent talking heads saying what it would be and how it would be. i am disgusted by some of the lawyers that have done this, and i can tell you that my colleagues from coast-to-coast and border to border have condemned this whole process of lawyers getting on television and talking about cases that they don't know a thing about, and don't have the experience to back up their words or the law to do it. now you learned a lesson, and we appreciate the jury, those of you that have been objective and
professional, we like you, and others we will be talking to again. thank you very much. >> i want to start off by saying that while we're happy for casey, there are no winners in this case. caylee has passed on. far, far too soon. and what my driving force has been for the last three years has always been to make sure that there has been justice for caylee, and casey. because casey did not murder caylee. it's that simple. and today our system of justice has not dishonored her memory by a false conviction.
i want to thank everyone who stood behind me and who supported me throughout this time, and especially the man who took me under his wing and made sure that i stayed focused and that we continued to work hard, and that we continued to fight and battle. it's -- it really is -- i really do have mixed feelings all over the situation with those facts. this case has brought on new challenges for all of us. challenges in the criminal justice system, and challenges in the media, and i think we
should all take this as an opportunity to learn and to realize that you cannot convict someone until they have had their day in court. we have the greatest constitution in the world. if the media and other members of the public do not respect it, it will become meaningless, and today and yesterday on the fourth of july, there was a breath of life in it. i think i always want to acknowledge the prosecutors who worked hard for justice as well.
i think they are a fine group of prosecutors. linda is an incredible advers y adversary, and i think that she certainly is one of the best lawyers i have ever seen. frank george also was a very important member of the team that really held them together and made them very cohesive -- a cohesive unit. and mr. ashton is a fierce opponent, and i think that the state of florida, all three of them serve the state of florida very well. as i said, i'm not as -- i'm very happy for casey. i'm ecstatic for her and i want her to be able to grieve and
grow and somehow get her life back together. i -- i think that this case is a perfect example of why the death penalty does not work, and why we all need to stop and look and think twice about a country that decides to kill its own citizens. murder is not right no matter who does it. whether it's a ritual killing or someone becoming a victim in a drive-by shooting. it's disgusting. and i think if this case gets any attention, it should focus on that issue, that we need to
stop killing our people. the best feeling that i have today is that i know that i can go home and my daughter will ask me, what did you do today? and i can say that i saved a life. [ speaking spanish ] >> and there jose baez now addressing the media in spanish. he was very eloquent. he thanked the prosecutors and called them some of the best that he's ever worked with, even the man he had disagreements with. ashton, he called him a fierce opponent and the state of florida was lucky to have him.
he said most proudly and pointantly, he said when i go home and talk to my daughter about what i did today, i can say that i saved a life. many people did not think that he had a case, and that was also addressed by the other defense attorney who basically attacked and said this was media assassination, and he criticized folks who have been commenting on the case saying that folks should not talk about a case that they don't know anything about. so the gentler approach by jose baez, and the less gentle approach there, a slapdown by the other defense attorney. and the room is again being reset. as you can see there now. a lot of folks who are outside the courthouse, jose baez is saying justice has been done.
and he made a comment about the death penalty, saying there should be no death penalty. you think about this, baez said there is no false conviction, that the jury did what they could have done. there is a real sense that no matter what criticism he got, he knew that casey had not done that in his opinion. >> i think to argue as passionately as he did in his opening and closing, he had to believe that. i have always gotten the sense that he -- some of us said he drank the kool-aid. we thought she fooled him, but clearly the jury agreed with him. how does an attorney get a defense, it's what the client tells him. and to his credit, and give credit where credit is due, he managed to use that passion of what he believed to convince the
12 people in the box. yes, we have all the public documents and we have the discovery, and as lawyers we do the best predicting we can. but here is the bottom line, the 12 ones in the box, they are -- >> let's go to david mattingly, and he's sitting outside the courthouse. what is the sense there? what are you seeing and what are you hearing? >> reporter: we are seeing a crowd gathering in front of the courthouse right now. there was an area set up in advance where the sheriff and attorneys might come out and make remarks, but there is no movement in that tent so far. the next words will be coming from the jurors themselves as the ones who are willing to talk publicly. they will file in that room and take their seats in front of the camera.
it will be interesting to hear what they have to say, if it truly was reasonable doubt in the prosecution's case. maybe some of the holes that the defense attorney, jose baez, was pointing out, it's going to be very interesting to awful us who have been watching this for so long. what was it that told them that they could not convict casey anthony? i would have to disagree with what jose baez says, that there are no winners. casey anthony was on trial for her life. she will not be facing that now. it's possible she could get a year maximum for each of those misdemeanor charges that she is facing. >> although having served three years in prison and having been acquitted on the more serious charges, chances are some people were wondering why they did not ask her to let go immediately. jeff, you worked as a prosecutor. they really did seem confident
that they built the right case, a strong and solid circumstantial case. right now they must be devastated. that's it and it's over and it's done. >> you know, i am getting e-mailed questions, what about an appeal? an acquittal there is no appeal. tomorrow casey anthony could go on the courthouse steps and confess to murder and she could not be tried again. this case is over forever. done. she will never go on trial again for this case. we have been skirting around this issue. this has been a big project of our colleague, nancy grace. it's been a very much a focus of her trial. we were never under any allusions when the defense attorney was eluding to when he
was talking about the news coverage of the trial. that is also a factor in how this case played out. this was not a very famous case until nancy grace and her colleagues sort of embraced it. i think it's safe to say that in a way it was very much a negative towards casey anthony. >> nancy grace, i was asking her last night. she's very passionate about this. she always takes up these causes. she would not even call casey anthony by her name, and calling her "tot mom." and there was a scathing message to what he called the media assassination by, quote, incompetent talking heads, unquote. he almost suggested he will go after some of the talking heads and it's not over. is that a possibility? >> i don't think so. i think this matter will be
dealt with appropriately in the court of public opinion. people will make judgments as to whatever. i don't understand why casey anthony isn't released today at this moment. her lawyers were so stunned they forgot to ask for bail. this case is over as far as casey anthony is concerned in terms of criminal liability. the media's performance is something that we should all discuss. >> i want to go to debra on this case. one thing that i thought was interesting. what are your thoughts on this. casey anthony's mom and dad sat in the back of the courtroom, and they did not show any sort of over emotion. they did not hug each other in relief. we could not tell whether or not they were holding hands, and
maybe they were, and then they walked up and left the courtroom early. from your perspective, thinking that she never was going to be found guilty, what does that suggest? >> it's the perspective of what orders they were under by enforcement. don't forget, they put out the word as soon as the verdict was read the police would go to their house. they were probably out of there for protection and under police instructions. i have been making statements in the media for many years about the media as the 13th juror, and in many other jurisdictions and countries you have a court case that goes to trial and the media is off limits. and the legislature and our government may want to look at this and case under the
consequen constitutional guidelines, what can we do without stepping on the first amendment to protect that. casey anthony is now judged not guilty. let's be honest. her life has been severely damaged, because wherever she goes or whatever she does, she's a media celebrity in the media's eyes that got off the hook. we have to find a balance. i have been saying it since the michael jackson case and i said it now and will say it for the rest of my life, the media as a 13th juror has got to reconsider what they do with a case, because nancy grace made this case famous, and nancy grace now has to re-evaluate why did she put this into the limelight, because maybe it -- >> a lot of people are going to be looking at what was done right and what was done wrong.
clearly not rendering a verdict, but before a verdict was rendered. we want to go to jeff, and you want to comment on this, the fact that she's not guilty. >> i wanted to make the point that the argument here is that the media had too much influence. nancy grace was on television for three years saying she was guilty, and the jury said otherwise. michael jackson, also acquitted. o.j. simpson simpson, also acquitted. and so the idea that a lot of press scrutiny leads to jurors that are very anxious to convict, i think it's belied by the fact. personally, i don't think the government needs to get involved. i think it's a good subject for the media to evaluate on our own about whether we do a good job or bad job. we don't need government regulation of what people say or report in the news for better or worse. >> clearly, the most important thing that people want tor
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