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tv   Tonight From Washington  CSPAN  August 4, 2011 8:00pm-11:00pm EDT

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you have landmines also between eritrea and ethiopia and some of the refugees are going through these writs to get to ethiopia. those coming to yemen are going by boat. often these people are exploited by all sorts of the smugglers and thugs abusing the people on their way to yemen. host: guest: host: how much of this is tribal? guest: the chance are very important. even the subclan affiliation is important in somalia. so the clanic structure of the country is not necessarily been a verytor ..ur other refugee situations i the world that you'd like to
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bring our attention to, not on this scale necessarily, but other ones we should be aware of? guest: i think one to keep in mind is the afghan refugee. that's the largest refugee situation. you know, pakistan, other countries in the region have provided asylum and services for afghan refugees. host: does that include iran? guest: yes, that includes iran. since the afghan invasion of afghanistan. we odd to see a good response to those refugees because unfortunately last year not that many -- we ought to see a >> we can want go back to afghanistan. we need to take care of it. >> host: a regional representative for the u.n. commissioner on refugees. thank you for talking with us about famine in somalia.
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>> told a house foreign affairs committee in africa that between 70,000-90 ,000 people in sudan next month will die if they don't take action. they called on the u.s. to curve more of the humanitarian crisis in the region. sudan and neighbors of south sudan face mounting security problems facing the south's independence in july. oil revenue continue to plague a comprehensive peace agreement signed by both sides in 2005 ending a civil war. this hearing is about two hours.
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[inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] >> subcommittee will come to order. good morning, everyone. we called today's emergency hearing because of the crisis in the sudan state of kordofan. they attacked the abyei region has a provocation to the people's liberation movement. south sudan was about to be independent, and these attacks may have been intended to bro voke a fight to derail their independence. north members in the sudanese
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state were increasing. because of the fighting and displacement of sudanese and foreigners of southern kordofan, nobody is estimating how many people were kill in the area. 73,000 people were displaced. whatever the numbers involved, the suffering of the people in southern kordofan, especially the people, has been catastrophic. this latest violence is a tragic presumption of a prior war of the khartoum government. beginning in 1980, islamist elements of the north began with a campaign pinning northern ashes against africans in the south. they are not southerners although they fought with the southern army in the north-south civil war. they are not accepted by the elements ruling the north although many of them are muslims.
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this left them on their own to suffer the onslaught of the khartoum government. the strategy of cultural cleansing pursueded by the government involves harsh attempts to depopulate areas, killing combatants and others and hurdling survivors into so-called refugee camps. when jihad was declared by the government of sudan in 1992, even muslims were targeted with the rationale that muslims in the areas were not true muslims. life of the women has been a central component aimed at destroying the social fabric of the society. almost every woman who has been in one of khartoum's so-called peace camps reportedly was raped or threatened with rape. according to the united nations office for the coordination of humanitarian affairs, between
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30,000-40,000 people out of a population of 60,000 in southern kordofan have fled the town. many were indiscriminant including bombardments and fire by forces. bombings have been reported in five villages south of the state capitol as well as other towns. the u.n. office of the high commissioner for u.n. rights told the security counsel on july 29th there were reports as recently as july 27th of bombings forcing civilians to flee. i point out that one of our witnesses today, bradford phillips of the persecution project on monday brought with him troubling evidence he gleaned being there for almost two weeks so when we hear about
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the reports, here's a man who actually saw it and it is the reason, frankly, it was the genesis of this hearing today. his sense that we need to do something to bring focus and scrutiny and hopefully action to this terrible plague. some today are trying to down play the overwhelming responsibility of the sudanese government for the devastation taking place in southern corby referring to the refusal of the slm north's laying down of arms to negotiate with khartoum. there is no moral e equivalence between the north actions and those of the bashir government. they are not driving arabs off their lands and out of their homes nor going door to door to identify their perceived enemies in order to execute them. the sudan military forces are, and we will soon see photographic evidence of these
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atrocities. in addition of the recent atracks, it disrupted the planting season with a long term negative impact on the ability of the people to feed themselves. in parts of somalia, ethiopia, and kenya, people suffer from draught made worse by conflict. in southern kordofan, the national government is creating a similar humanitarian crisis. the death and destruction to which sudanese africans have been subjected was thought to have ended with the signing of the comprehensive peace agreement in 2005 to end the north-south civil war. however, the genocide in darfur diverted the international community's attention away from the unresolved issues between north and south. these lingering points of contention threaten to derail independence for south sudan just as the independence process was coming to a conclusion, and now the struggle over abyei
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threatens the cries and pleas arising from the people as they are dragged into a resumption of the northern war against them. we discuss this war during the sub committee's hearing in june on south sudan. at that time it was horrific as any attacks waged by the khartoum government. the testimony presented today by witnesses who have seen the carnage firsthand will reveal their horrific extent of the situation. again, i welcome today's testimony to reveal the death penalties of this -- depths of the tragedy and the depths of sudan. i'd like to yield to my good friend and colleague, mr. payne, for any opening comments. >> thank you very much, and let me commend you, mr. chairman, for calling this very important hearing. i just rushed here from an earlier meeting that we -- that was called on the problem of
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somalia and the drought that is going on there, and so i appreciate the chairman giving the attention to this region which, of course, because of our pressing problems here in the u.s. and we do know that we have a primary obligation to our nation to make it strong and to correct some errors that we've made in the past, we still cannot forget that we have a world that's really being shattered by unshared bread, and that we have a responsibility still as it says in the bible to be our brother's keeper, and so i know that it's difficult to focus on areas outside of our immediate problems, but i do appreciate the chairman of keeping the issues before our
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nation because we do, i believe, have an obligation. less than a month ago, we witnessed the birth of a new nation, the republic of south sudan. i was among the delegation present at the ceremony, and i witnessed the joy of the people of south sudan that day, many decades of struggle, struggle before independence, struggleceps the independence -- struggle sense the independence, struggles with the civil war in 89, struggles that continued until the cpa was signed in 2005 and struggles up until the conclusion of the ref referendum on july 9, 2011 when independence was announced and celebrated and so it has been a struggle for the people of south sudan, and the struggle
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continues. the sudanese people accomplished a great deal in their celebration and it's well deserved and certainly overdue. the peaceful nature in which 98.8% of south sudanese voted for their independence was commendable, and to serve as a witness to what sudanese people are capable of, as a matter of fact, a voter registration was in excess of 90% also, and it's recorded that this turn out even exceeded the turnout of south after south africa when they had their first election when mr. mandella was president of a new south africa, so we have to really commend the people of
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south sudan for their appreciation for democracy. unfortunately, though, persist persistent violence in the areas reminds us important work still remains to be done to ensure peace within both countries, north and south sudan, and a peaceful relationship between the neighboring states. in june, the subcommittee convened to discuss the challenges that the pending nation of south sudan would face. we're now on the other side of the independent celebration, and we are witnessing some of the challenges that southerners living in the north are facing. in today's hearing, we will be focusing on the region of south kordofan and human rights, the violations that are occurring at the hands of president bashir against the people. the map was drawn in 94 or prior
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to that, and when they gave independence in 1956, the lines were drawn, and had they been drawn today, we would know that south kordofan and abyei and the nuba mountains would be a part of sudan. people of that area fought along with the splm and feel a part of the south, however, the lines have been drawn, and they find themselves in the north. however, they were supposed to be a accommodate made to be a discussion on what type of arrangement could be made in kordofan, south kordofan, however, the popular consultation has not taken place. the ref referendum in abyei has not taken place. the elections were not fair and free, and so we had problems
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that persist today. in today's hearing, we'll be focusing on the disputed regions of south kordofan and the human right violations occurring at the hands of president bashir against the nuba people. an estimated 1 minute 4 million -- 1.4 million people are affected by the fighting of the south armed forces and the liberation movement in the north. thousands of innocent sighfullians have been -- sighful -- civilians have been killed. there's reportings of mass graves and searching homes of reporters, detaining, torturing, and killing them. this is all evidence of ethnic cleansing. unfortunately the saf are armed to do the job. they are using heavy weapons
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including or artilleries, helicopters, and russian made bombers to hunt the nubans like animals as testifies said. the violence is no incident. bashir has done this many, many times before in darfur, in eastern sudan, and here in south kordofan. my visit visit to sudan in 1993, an spla controlled town near the uganda bard, at that -- border, at that time was the front line and i saw the suffering of the people in that area. when i returned, i introduced a resolution that the people of south sudan had the right of determination, and that began the whole notion of a new nation. with deep sadness, i visited abyei in may 2008, just after the town had been attacked and burnt to the ground by the bashir forces and pro-government
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militia. the atrocity displaced more than 40,000 people, and upon return, i introduced a resolution to highlight this act of violence that continues with bashir. the forces invaded abyei killing over 100 and displacing 100,000. south sudan's president has shown considerable restraint thus far because he does not want to have a war that would interfere with the peaceful resolution of the crisis. we must remember the human cost of these acts of aggression. people of abyei, southern kordofan, and throughout sudan suffered severely after prolonged civil war. for many, the violence and oppression continues with targeted killings and prolonged displacement. let us not forgot the crisis in
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darfur where many remain in displaced camps and malnutrition without any way to support their families due to the oppressive government of the bashir people and the military tactics. along with my fellow sudanese caucus co-chair circulating a letter to president obama early urging him to condemn the violence in southern kordofan. we have to combat the uses including other measures. it's important that we have aid programs and peace keeping missions helping to save countless lives that propose foreign and aid budget cuts to bratly hinder our ability to provide relief to the affected areas and bring state to the region. that's why during foreign operations authorization bill
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mark up last month, proposed an amendment for the peace keeping budget with the request of $1.9 million and set aside contingency funds to address the atrocities in southern kordofan. i'm interested on how the budget cuts affect the work and encouraged to see today that there's a new initiative of a comprehensive review to stengthen the united states' ability to prevent massive atrocities. this includes the creation of the atrocities prevention board that will have the authority to develop convention strategies to aid the u.s. and allies in responding to early warning signs and prevent potential atrocities. the president issued a proclamation bars persons who organize or participate in war crimes, crimes against humanity,
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and serious violations of human rights from entering the united states of america. i applaud the president for remaining engaminged and avoiding the mass atrocities. the world celebrated with the people of south sudan on july 9, and rightfully so. after all the united states and people here alike, mr. wilson, others played such an important role in what we see today, and so we have a -- we are a critical partner in the peace process as we all know. while we work to ensure stability and prosperity for all people is far from complete. we must remain engaged and commit our support to democracy, rule of law, justice, and peace for the people of sudan, whichever side of the border they live. thank you very much.
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>> thank you, mr. chairman, and thank you for calling this extremely important emergency hearing, just reading the testimony for today's hearing is a sobering reminder that the suffering of the sudanese people remains ongoing. it's important to celebrate the new nation of south sudan, we cannot forget the ones across the border. the south kordofan area is filled with heart break for decades. it is unfair, but the people responsible for the darfur genocide are still in positions of authority, zill carrying out their war crimes, and now with the struggles between the north and south sudan over abyei, the crisis in south kordofan is destabilizing. that means the cost of thousands of lives and presents a threat not only to the nuba mountains and areas, but to the newly born
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south sudan. thank you to the witnesses to be here today to share what you learned firsthand. thank you, mr. chairman, i yield back. >> chair recognized mr. wolff. >> thank you, mr. chairman. i'll be brief. one, i want to thank the witnesses, and two, i want to personally thank both you and mr. payne for having this hearing so fast. i almost have never see someone turn around. i mean when you got together so often -- i personal want to thank both of you. i think it's incredible, your interests in how of two of you work together and both deserve a lot of credit. lastly, i would say to the church in the west, i think the church in the west has to really do a better job of advocating for the persecuted church. i see one of the witnesses representative richard, who i
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read his burkes over the years and visited romania. the silence of the church in the west is actually incredible. when i think of what's taking place to believers in that part of the country, that part of the world and others, and yesterday i hear total complete silence, it sort of is incredible. hopefully this hearing motivates not only the admission, but the church, the leaders of all the denominations to come together to advocate for this, but we'll see what comes out of this hearing. i thank the witnesses, and i want to again, thank you and mr. payne for just, you know, working together, getting this thing done right away. i mean, somebody comes up with an idea and 48 hours later, we have a hearing. thank you very much, and i yield back. >> thank you very much, chairman wolf. let's begin with adam elnail, capitol of the conflict torn
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region of south kordofan. he has been outspoken and courageous. in a recent interview, religion dispatchers write if he had not been in denver receiving treatment in june, he could be in a mass grave now. that's how volatile and how dangerous the situation is today, and, again, we are deeply indebted that he is here, flew here, and will be provided this subcommittee, and hopefully the entire congress and by extension the american people, very, very important insights and will be a rallying cry for action. we'll hear from mr. bradford phillips, president of the persecution project foundation, and as a sudan country director for the voice of the mortars, two non-profit organizations serving the persecuted church.
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in 1980 i read the book, "tortured for christ" who suffered under the dictator of romania, and spent years of being tortured. he and other believers, and that's what got me involved in religious freedom issues after reading that book. mr. phillips is one of the leaders of voice of the martyrs, the group that continues that work, and he also is founder and president of the persecution project. since 1998, mr. phillips has helped document agents of genocide committed by the government of sudan and assisting in humanitarians in southern kordofan. he worked with victims of nuba, and the reason we are here is the urgency on monday that the congress brings light, scrutiny, and hopefully an action plan to mitigate to terrible, terrible,
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worsening situation in south kordofan. he's founder of 100 wells campaign, providing clean water to darfur refugees. we'll hear from dr. luka bio in ng deng. he's in conflict resolution, published articles in national journals dressing these issues and is also founding member and chairman of the board of director action for development. he serves on cabinet affairs for the government of sudan and worked for the world bank and for southern sudan senators for census statistics and evaluation. again, thank you all for being here on such extraordinarily short notice. i want to begin with the bishop if i could, and please proceed as you would like.
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>> thank you for calling this emergency hearing on the human rights and human security in my home reason of south kordofan. >> pull the microphone closer or make sure that -- >> i also want to thank the ranking members of the leadership support for the endirged nuba people as well. here to testify about all my people and my members of my church and they give me all the news from the ground. i want to start with what happened in my diocese and town where the atrocities are taking place. my house was shot with the guns,
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and my chaplain was able to escape through the windows and also my offices were burned down in k -- in my town as well. also the muslim mosques have been burned for the black muslims, and one told me clearly he has seen the earth mover in south school of tilo and digging to bits. in the evening they brought bodies in the location, and militia and other people putting on uniforms of the prisons in kadugli and other people working
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and sort of the people was put in the body bags, and they were put there. he saw this personally and speak to him many times, and i really believe what he says. also the images taken with the satellites, and really i appeal for the united states also to deploy its own satellites to prevent the eye witness and also for the government not tamper with the mass graves found and call for an investigation to find out exactly what's taking place. in the nuba mountains now, the children are killed. the women -- the civilian is targeted. it is the war of horror.
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to really achieve ethnic cleansing in the nuba mountains, every day i'm in different cities, and we experiencing people running in the mountains, and i have been given foe photos last week where people just eat greens, eat greens, and there is no food, and at the same time this is very important time for us in nuba mountains. we are cultivating. it is the beginning of the season, so if you have not died by the bombs, in next october, we will not have food, and also here we will die. that's why we are calling for the u.n. government and other international communities and african union. these are the people, they help us to sign the peace agreement in sudan, and we are very grateful for the decision of
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south sudan, but at the same time nuba mountains are left struggling, and i want the u.s. government really to go further and secure our people in the nuba mountains. it is drawn every day, and really we need the government and international community to stop these bombings. they are killing people. the people have no planes of bombings, be stopped for the lives of the people. they are thrown on people where there are no soldiers. at the same time, the government is not allowing the humanitarian access, there is no -- any organization to give food. they were ford bidden -- forbidden. calling for the u.n. and u.s. to
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make any ways for their humanitarians to give access and aid of food and also to give assistance for the injured people in the nuba mountains. at the same time, the u.n. troops in south kordofan, they were threatened by the government of tashir. they were told to move, could not investigate the mass grave, and really we want the increase and also effective peacekeepers in the nuba mountains. the people of nuba, they want peace, but they were forced to fight, defend their people, and nuba people are fever #* fearing. they don't know what will happen. they feel they are forgotten
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because nothing is happening there to give them the freedom, and bashir and heron, these are peoplemented by criminal -- people wanted by the criminal court. they are wanted for the crimes in darfur. they are the same people, and the war is running after them. we signed peace in other part of the region, like in south sudan, when the agreement was signed, they start war in darfur, and also when south sudan was seized, they set war in nuba mountains. these are the types of government we are are dealing with for over 20 years. this government is just killing people, their own people, and people continue to engage in peace, and it will be broken. we are not alone calling for the international community to help
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us, but all the people in the world, like here we have the petition. over half million of the people around the world, they are striving and are calling for the stop and ritual ethnic cleansing in nuba mountains, so we are calling for really action in the region of nuba mountains and other marginalized areas. thank you. >> bishop, thank you very much for your testimony and for your urgent appeal to the united states and the world, the international community to respond and to do so immediately. mr. phillips. >> chairman, smith, ranking member reign, and members of the subcommittee, thank you very much for inviting me to testify at this emergency hearing on the current crisis of the nuba mountains of the southern kordofan state and republic of sudan.
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by way of introduction, i'm brad phillips here on behalf of two organizations with a long history of working in sudan. first is persecution project and second is the voice of the martyrs and much of the emphasis has been on sudan during the last decade, and my very first trip to sudan brought me to the nuba mountains. after reading the reports of the genocide that was happening there, alex duwald and julie flint and others wrote reports. i heard about the extermination of more than half the nuba population, and so that was my first introduction to sudan, and with my most recent visit, there were bombings going on every day, part of an air yell campaign of terror against civilians. mr. chairman, i realize that you and your colleagues are only
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now concluding a very busy time considering the debate on raising the debt ceiling, so i'm very grateful you have taken time to listen about this issue, a nonpartisan issue, this issue of genocide. genocide is being perpetrated in the nuba mountains in the southern kordofan state of the republic of sudan. i know you've had the opportunity several times to receive testimony on this issue from any friend, roger wenter, who agented in many capacities as well as the representative of sudan. during his last testimony on the 16th of june, he reported to you of this war of genocide being waged on nuba. i'm hear to say everything he testified about the state is true. i've seen it with my own eyes. less than three weeks after the testimony, i was in the nuba mountains for 12 days. i fully understand what is happening now in the nuba mountains requires some cop text
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and background, and i appreciate very much the long history you had and so many others on this committee on this issue. for the sake of others, in 1989, the islamist front came to power in sudan, and its leadership consistented of is lawsmic -- islamic extremists, founding members of al-qaeda, birthed by the muslim brotherhood, identified by our government as terrorists or supporters of international terrorism. as soon as they came to power, it began an intensive campaign for the indigenous population in the blue nile and nuba mountains and more recently in darfur. during the 1990s until the peace agreement was signed in 2005,
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more than 2 million sudan people, most of whom were christians were slaughtered. in the nuba mountains in the 80s and 90s, roughly half the population, estimated 500,000 people, were slaughtered in a similar genocide, and all of us, i think, are aware of the genocide that took place in darfur beginning in 2003 that claimed an estimated 400,000 lives. the primary resistance of the national islamic front from the last war came from the sudanese people liberation movement carried out by the leader. dr. john was a christian from south sudan, but desired freedom and self-determination for all the sudan people, and his vision was called the new sudan. after more than 20 years of fighting, the splm fought the islamic front to a standstill, and with the help of international pressure, much led by the united states, the nif
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was forced to the negotiation table, and that was kos mated in 1995 with the peace agreement signed in kenya. this agreement provided south sudan with referendum votes on self-determination that resulted in the welcoming in of the republic of sudan as the world's newest nation most recently on july 9. while we do celebrate with south sudan, its independence from this regime, we must not forget that many groups in the north were not given the same guarantees as the south, specifically the abyei region in south kordofan state, the nuba mountains and the blue nile state received implicit promises for self-determination as well as some explicit promises in this agreement, but as subsequent actions showed in the
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interim period of the cpa now renamed the national congress party had no intention of granting self-determination to the areas. under the cpa, the nuba were granted a free election, a gubernatorial election to take place in may this year followed by a consultation where elected leaders interview the constituents and see what people wanted to do with their political future. this process would hopefully pave the way for a regime change or some sort of power assuring arrangement in khartoum to recognize and respect the rights of all of sudan's diverse communities in southern kordofan state. as of today the consultation promised by the cpa has not taken place. moreover, sudan's president, bashir stated in april this year that if the national congress party could not get its way at the ballot box, it uses the ammo
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box and went on to say he would smoke the nuba people out of the mountains using tanks. this was a declaration of war on the 27th of april by omar al-bashir. it was a violation of the agreement. earlier this month as an attempt to draw the splm into war before the election, al-bashir sent my militia forces to the home of the new splm commander. 27 members of his family were murdered in this attack. he didn't take the bait, and he wasn't through with the elections. when the elections finally took place, the evidence of large scale vote rigging was reported,
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yet even with the evidence of vote fraud, bashir jumped a few steps and sent down his adviser to declare their candidate, indicted war criminal, the winner without any verification process taking place. the newly elected governor then ordered all splm forces out of southern kordofan by the first of june. this order was in direct violation of the cpa which allowed the spla to operate in southern kordofan up to 90 days after the close of the interim period on july 9. this attempt to cleanse the north of the splma before the july 9th independence of south sudan was also carried out in the abyei region. forces invaded on the 20th of may forcing most of the indigenous population out. some estimates of the number of
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refugees in this area are as high as 100,000. it was obvious to those watching the events unfold what was happening. it's no wonder that the splm refused to disarm or to leave the state. when the order was not obeyed by the june 1 deadline, the ncp tried to disarm the movement by force. on june 6, the ncp attacked and sacked the capitol murdering thousands of civilians in subsequent days. the ncp also pulled out and old card from the debt, the ariel bombardments using helicopter gun ships, they launched a campaign of terror from the skies. i've included some pictures of these bomb locations which i think are playing now on this screen.
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bombing civilians. i arrived in nuba on the 4th july in a private charter flying to nuba since all humanitarian flights had ceased. during my visit, i had the opportunity to spend time with and interview a dozen interviews who escaped from kadugli a few days after the ethnic cleansing started, all of whom shared the same sorry that the reverend shared and which you will hear from others. sudan forces went house-to-house searching for any nuba citizen, anyone identified with the church or anyone who was associated with the splm. anybody fitting either of the three descriptions was killed on the spot or arrested and never seen again. fortunatelily a few thousand
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residents obtained sheetedders, but the -- shelters, but the compounds after being filled, many people were killedded at the gates of the compound as a result of the control to allow forces of the staff to enter the compound and take nuba people out of the compound while they stood by and watched. i had the opportunity to spend time with one of the colleagues of reverend andudu and also a priest from the same area who escaped from kadugli after it started. what he said to me, and i submitted the video of my interview with him to the committee. the ncp is targeting the church in this war. he received a call from some friends after getting out of the first escaping to an area and making his way outside of kadugli county, and they
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basically told him he was on the list which is what the bishop here has told me as well meaning if they find him and catch him, they will kill him. his testimony kordofan responded with so many others i received from nuba kris chaps and nonchristians alike persecuted in the last war by the same regime. one story of a man who i met whose fingernails were pulled out. his genitals were crushed, dragged behind a tank, in and out of price for eight years, and what he pointed out to me was this is a very same regime that did this to him that is now bombing his village, and we saw the planes passing over three or four times a day. rev rapid says the ncp does not distinguish between christian and a member of the splm political party. they assume if you are
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associated with the church, that, in fact, you must be splm and spla. this was the testimony we got from so many pastors we enterer interviewed. when they capture them, they ask for a list of all the members of the congregation because if you are part of the church, you are the enemy. consequently even today, pastors and church leaders are specifically targeted as leaders and recruiters of the splm. another pastor who i interviewed referring to as kumi for security reasons was arrested, tortured in horrific ways, and as mentioned, force to mention the names of his church members. during his capture which i already mentioned, they pulled his fingernails, toenails, hung him by the neck, and crushed his genitals, poured gas on his
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hands and set them alight and many other cruel acts. this pastor was in prison for eight years, and although he lived several hours drive from the area from rev land luka was from, his testimony was the same. yet another church leader that i met in a completely different area was stabbed ten times. his name was musa, stabbed ten times. he told me he was killed along with seven other elders and pastors in his church, destroyed his church, they stabbed him ten times. he actually -- they believed he was dead, but he survived, and each one of the people that they killed, they cut off their ear as a trophy to take back and show what they had done, and his message to me was, again, was that these are the same people that are bombing us today, the
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same people that are cutting off people's heads and slaughtering people like annals in kadugli, and if they have their way, they're going to exterminate us. i heard these stories over and over again in the 12 days i was in the nuba mountains. the only difference from 1998 and last month is the splm has taken the war to their enemies led by their leader. the people of the nuba mountains are fighting back, and have won impressive victories on the ground, and this occurred without significant help from the international community. this determined risk resistance by the splm in the nuba mountains is a genuine popular uprising, and the only thing preventing another rwanda jen sides from happening, but sometime it running out. the u.p. ended humanitarian relief efforts early in jupe,
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and most ngos pulled out. all the roads have been close the, and the rainy season in south sudan have effectively closed supply routes to the south until the end of the season in november or december. the daily bombings have terrorized local populations to the degree that normal cultivation is not taking place during this very crucial planting system. the nuba mountains are isolated, cut off, and facing a very severe humanitarian crisis within 60 days or less unless relief flights can recommence. this will not happen with bombings and gun ships patrolling the skies. the ncp refuses to allow u.n. observes into the nuba mountains to document what is happening which should not surprise anyone. it's essential that the international community bring pressure to bear on the united nations to immediately declare human humanitarian emergency in
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the nuba mountains and impose a no-fly zone to stop the bombing campaign and allow humanitarian access and let relief flightings back into the region. there's more than enough evidence to justify speedy action on the part of the united states government and the international community to address this very dire situation in the nuba mountains. the president of sudan, bashir, is an indicted war criminal. the current governor of the nuba mountains, also an indicted war criminal because of the genocide. in fact, he was of the one carrying out the genocide in the nuba mountains in the 90s. these men make libya's gadhafi look like a khoir boy. there's no justification for bombing in libya while we do nothing with the nuba mountains. many seasoned reporters from the "new york times," "time" magazine, the english, "the
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independent" and others visited the nuba mountains. some were with me during my visit. they brought back testimony and video that corroborate and prove that the war crimes are being committed right now against the nuba by the national congress party regime. there's copies of the articles included with my testimony, and i ask the question how is it then that the u.s. government still claims there's not enough evidence to charge war crimes? why does of the u.s. government treat them with moral e qif lap sigh? based on the ncp and what we know about what they are doing in darfur, abyei, and the nuba mountains, it amazes me how the u.s. and international community tolerates the killers for so long, but pursues others who have not killed 1-100th of what bashir has. 3 million lives and counting.
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when will we say enough? >> phillips, thank you very much for that very powerful testimony. dr. deng. >> i thank you for inviting me to testify today. good morning, chairman smith and ranking member -- >> pull that closer and be sure the microphone is on. i thank you for inviting me today, and good morning, chairman smith, and ranking meb payne, and other distinguished members of the committee. it is an honor to have the opportunity to focus on this political issue. i welcome the opportunity to provide my thoughts to you today on the issues facing sudan, southern sudan, and up deed,s
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-- indeed, the people of the nuba mountains. i am serving as the director of kush inc promoting state with africa, u.s., and focusing on abyei and southern sudan. mr. chairman, i am one of the people who participated in the negotiation of the peace agreement, but even importantly, i was negotiating even the protocol of the two areas. i want to indicate again what happened during the peace agreement. the people of nuba mountains not only participated in the rice, by the public tapings given to them by the cpa was to have the right of political
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determination. they did not get it. they're so determined. having this as a step for them to pursue the right of self-determination. i want to share with you today also before i become the directer of kush, i serve as senior minister of national government, as an official of governmental affairs. mr. chairman, i resign on the 21st of may this year. after all bashir and government invaded abyei, and when he invaded abyei, i saw thousands of people rushing out with crying children, and i saw really a pattern, a clear pattern, of leadership focusing on selectively targeting its own people. it started with darfur, but
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coming through to abyei, but indeed today in southern kordofan. it's a clear case of ethnic cleansing, a clear case of the african people in that country being displaced and the arabs being settling on their land. i decide to resign, and i sent you my own resignation because of what i saw as atrocities against humanity in sudan. i said this, mr. chairman, because i think nuba mountains is just an example of the patterns happening on the south sudan border, and that's why i feel we should look at this. what is happening is unacceptable, and this is going to continue throughout the
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region, north and south. there's another reason about to face the same too, and that is the blue nile. i appreciate the opportunity to have provided me today, and discuss the current situation in south kordofan and other areas, and the accommodation of this great government and the people of america to assist in this and the situation in sudan, but it's very important to look at the whole picture e murminging in the south -- emerging in the south, and that's why i would like to look at those issues as well. mr. chairman as mentioned by congressman payne, the people of sudan, when we talk about stability of peace, we have to look at the sector of the communities and regions of southern sudan. when we talk about the relationships the northerners have, southern sudan is a reflection of the marginalized
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people who suffered together to gain independence. what you are seeing in nuba mountains, it is again what happened to the people of southern sudan is now in nuba mountains which was also in abyei and definitely darfur. it's important for you and us to know after the independence of the south, it's becoming critical that the emerging of the remappedder of the continued leadership in northern sudan are tending now to go to the radical elements coming and the elements have actually emerged in the state. some are echoing the south has a purr mid -- purr ri mid sudan. this was evident to the people in darfur. you can see extremist emerging in that country, in the northern
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sudan. personally, i feel what was happening in southern sudan is not only ethnic cleansing, but indeed a crime against humanity. put it in that context to help us focus more. it is not about nuba. it is about the people and about the traditions, about their land. this is what we're seeing, and there's a similar part in the process of being committed as i mentioned earlier. ..
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headed by people like abdul aziz and -- these are the only credible political parties that i feel is a real ally that could rule democratically in order to transform the system in khartoum. because these are the people who fought the war and believes truly their commitment to peace. but what you are saying is that these people of the northern sector because of the things happening in southern kordofan may be pushed for the option of
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regime change and for the -- and that will affect eventually the people, the civilians. it is very important for us also to take into account what is happening and why it is happening now. in negotiating even in, with the national government, the sudan government in the african union, it is good to tell what happened in nuba mountain mountain in sequence, what happened. i want to remind you that the people work given proper consultation. it took a bit of a struggle for us to have legislation for the public consultation. but you know by congressman payne the election in the nuba
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mountain with a hope to dilute the -- of nuba mountain. but it is important also that even be obstructed process of the public consultation is supposed to be done by the representative of people. but before they public consultation if the nuba people in brunei had not set aside it should be discussed at the next legislation. what is happened with the ncp unilaterally is -- you'll be left with an assembly that does not affect the people of nuba mountain because members of the the -- are supposed to be there up until the ninth of july but they decided maturely before
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time. is important to know that the ncp unilaterally took a decision to disarm these two areas and a commitment in the security arrangement was for us to have this joint integrated unit to continue until the ninth of july of 2011 but they decided to attempt to disarm them ahead of time and that is what triggered the complex we are seeing today. dishonoring what we agreed upon. it is very important also to know that during the negotiations an agreement was reached between the leadership of the ncp for an arrangement so that the people can enter into dialogue. what happened after the signing of the agreement, the ncp rejected that agreement and the agreement was talking of a dialogue between the forces and
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a dialogue about the whole incident and for the sblm -- they rejected that one. in the same pattern i also want to share with you what is happening in not be it. in the agreement the protocol, we agreed there would be abyei bonded commission to be formed. that commission was formed and we agreed it should have a final binding for abyei. what happened is they rejected that one very early in the peace agreement. the push to deliver that went to the permanent court of arbitration. we went to the federal court of arbitration and for the sake of peace, to define the area of
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abyei, when they came they rejected it and they said now it is still this area that belongs to the arabs. we agreed with the ncp that we should be able to appoint a share of the commission. and the sblm to appoint, to nominate -- for the commission and they refuse. we accepted. [inaudible] they refused. because we failed to contact abyei the african union in order to come up with a solution were looking for the african union. by the time we were waiting they
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invaded abyei in may of 2011 and we are seeing it again. a lot of atrocities are being committed in abyei. dishonoring whatever you agreed with. and i think with that in mind about what they have been doing i think it is important to look at the south also because these people, the hope for them whether in nuba mountain, dadar for -- a new nation being formed. it is very important to know this is a collective -- that results in what we are seeing. i am seeing in that country a passion within the global values
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to build a new nation and as mentioned by congressman payne, i think they're going to face a lot of difficulties and that is why we are seeing southern sudan is very important in the middle of the -- i think it is important we focus on africa but southern sudan is a good test for us to make a viable position and that is the only hope for the people of nuba mountain and the people of her night ni and the people of abyei. i want to conclude with some key messages. we working as an organization of assistance. definitely, i would say there is a leadership problem in sudan and this leadership in sudan is a liability not only to its own people but a liability to the
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continent and a liability to the people of southern sudan. and i think it is very important for the world to focus attention on what is happening in sudan because if we don't do it now, it is going to be a huge crisis in the region. in the north but it is going to affect the continent at large. extremism is coming very clearly in the north. and the appetite for ethnic cleansing and war is becoming a clear case in the laws. what should we do? i think it is very important that the united nations play a real influential role. it is very important to take the lead and it is an african problem but consistently it has become very clear your
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commitment for peace stability and solidarity. sudan is a -- country. we have collectively work together. i think it is very important also that the southern sudan is at the heart of your priorities. it is the only hope that we can be able to show the sudanese people and to those who have struggled for their own rights that you understand them. i think it is very important also your role in the united nations. in the abyei area to have a united nations mission in that region to provide protection to the people and i think that is a very -- under your role of the united nations political council. whether the united nations can provide protection in that area is not only --
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[inaudible] mr. chairman during the war it is difficult to get access. you expect the sudan government to give access to the people. having their own over a station and development through that process that we managed to take a relief assistance to the people of nuba mountain. it is critical we look to the indigenous organization that will be able to assist the people of nuba mountain. but i think it is important also we should look for a safe corridor and also for the idp camp in the south so that these people can be served easily from the south. we also in the abyei area in the
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organization does look for peace and development in terms of helping the people and making the aid effective using the indigenous organizations. i would like also to echo our appreciation and this is what the bishop said about the role of the ngos. it is a problem that needs to have focused attention and that will actually provide a lot of information that we are very proud of. these are the efforts we need to support. again what congressman -- said the role is critical. it is not only about the government. is about the people and it is a people of this great nation they could do a lot on the focus today in sudan. i want to conclude with what i
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believe we in kush, inc. can do also in the area. immediate efforts are based on the -- but we have also a vision of the holistic development effort that will be needed one day with crimes against humanity. we strongly encourage the united states to seek ways to support and build its network of non-governmental organizations like bush and others working in the region and we will provide a foundation to facilitate efforts in the south and north and build a significant infrastructure investing peas that is respectable of the human rights and religious beliefs. i would like to thank you indeed for giving me this opportunity. >> you secretary johnny carson or any one of his deputies and
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usaid sharon cromer or any of their deputies and admittedly it was very short notice, two days ago we asked them. this is an emergency hearing and i wants the state department and the usaid to know that this subcommittee will reconvene at any time, any time in august, hopefully very soon, to hear specifically what is being done, contemplated in response to this catastrophic explosive situation that you have brought our three distinguished witnesses to the subcommittee. let me make it very clear, we will reconvene at any time to hear that and hopefully be part of a solution. bishop elnail you pointed out the grave situation calls for the united states and the international community to translate moral outrage into effective action. you talked about how your cathedral has been ransacked and
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her chaplain has been beaten. you make it very clear that the nuba people fear that they will be forgotten, that the world will stand idly by. these are your quotes, while mass killings continue without redress and you talk about the house to house killings that are occurring as we meet here in committee. hugh also point out that the united states should deploy its own satellite to ensure that they reported mass graves are not tampered with. i point out that the subcommittee has long and aggressively everywhere in the world on every continent where this has occurred, has emphasized not only stopping the atrocities and the genocide in the first place but holding those who commit those atrocities to account whether the charles taylor who by early fall is likely to be sentenced. just recently as we all know, a bosnian-serb was finally found. there is no statue of limitations on crimes against
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humanity with genocide. he was hunted down and i was in srebrenica a couple of times including once for a mass burial of people who were slaughtered during an infamous couple of days in july and the same thing happened in rwanda. the same thing happened in the congo in the same thing as happened obviously and korda found. it is very important we be very robust and collecting that evidence while we try to stop it and i appreciate you bringing to the committee with! how important that is. i also -- you made a number of very serious recommendations and i would appreciate any elaboration by you or other witnesses on that, that the united states should, cannot begin and this is your words, to consider normalizing ties with sudan and should not be listed a sponsor of terrorism or her proof approve this outlawed nation access to a national financing and debt relief while
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these terrible crimes against humanity are occurring. you also say the international community including the african union must act. you also underscore that, because of the bombing campaign people have not been able to plants or to tend to their crops and that means that by october when the crops should have been ready to harvest, there will not be enough food to feed tens of thousands of displaced persons and you call that a slow-motion genocide by design, by design by the khartoum government. you also make a very impassioned appeal that's effective peacekeeping forces with a real mandate to actually keep the peace and not stand by while mass murder occurs house to house around-the-clock. so the question would be to the united states, in your view or any of the panelists view, has the united states done enough? at the has the international community dumb enough?
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as the peacekeepers who are now obviously redeployed, what should be done? new deployment? what would be your recommendations there are and obviously you make a point bishop that there needs to be bold action by the international security council. what would you say to them that needs to be done right now? >> i think first of all, the bombings, we need to stop these bombings of the civilians. and there are many ways. it might either u.s. would be able to stop the bombings in the killing of the people. never two, access to humanitarian aid is really very crucial. we don't have food. people are running into the cave said they have no food. and, also i know the u.s. is trying that we but we need more
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airports. because the government as part of the people who brought peace in sudan, but nuba mountain as part of the comprehensive peace agreement. but they are not finish. so we need the government to go ahead and still continue to achieve peace and freedom for the people of nuba, and at the same time, there is no news coming from the government. no media, but i think the u.s., they can go and see for themselves. because it is very difficult. the government of sudan is prohibiting anybody to go and to see and to report. they would don't want reporters. my question i was asking is the government of sudan greater than the united nations, african union, u.s. government?
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is this greater than preventing all things to be seen? and how long, how many gears people are dealing with this government but still doing the same. although bashir is wanted and -- for the international criminal court, but this man is wanted but they are still living together. why are they allowing this regime to continue doing their same action? so this is my question really, what the u.s. is going to do. we have been talking. we have been telling this many times but also now i'm happy that these organizations are now signing a petition of a half a million.
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i hope the government will be able to hear this voice for the world's people who are trying to help us. >> yes. i would just echo what the reverend said and of course this regime in khartoum has a long history of dishonoring agreements as he pointed out. what are the basic problems coming from washington d.c. is that we continue to try to deal with these people as honest brokers and not look at them as the murderous genocidal regime that they are. wide as our ambassador of princeton lyman when he is interviewed and asked about war crimes taking place in one of the interviews that i read that was recent, he said well here are the allegations but nobody is on the ground to see it.
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and i met with one of his representatives this week and i was basically told that the position of our government was one of moral equivalency between the two sides. and this is a really honest. we are not being honest with ourselves. there is plenty of evidence. there are journalists. i was there with the team from al-jazeera english and they produced a fantastic documentary that has been run over and over again and you can see it on youtube. it really exposes what is happening there. there was a team from "the new york times," from "time" magazine, from the independent. julie flint has written some excellent articles. there are people with cameras and internet and you can get more information now on this genocide then you than you could in the previous war. and the fact that the icc
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recognize the leadership of the national islamic front or the national congress party as being responsible for genocide and specifically recognized ahmed her room, why doesn't our government recognize them in that way? with regard to the u.n. forces, they're all kinds of stories coming out in no of the u.n. forces who were from egypt in kadugli standing by watching the slaughter take place and they are supposed to be peacekeeping forces, allowing the intelligence services of the south to come in and take people out of their compounds. there was one incident where six nuba women sought shelter in it, found and they were raped by the egyptian forces. so it seems as even some of the forces and i know it is not true for all of them, are complicit with khartoum. there is internal documents from the u.n. that i'm told are -- at the u.n. is actually being forced to release very soon
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because even some members of the u.n. where victim of these atrocities. so, they this should be investigated. these people should be prosecuted and the u.n. and brought to justice. our government should get off the fence and distinguish between the victims and the perpetrators of genocide. >> very quickly and then i will yield because i know bishop elnail has to leave shirley and i want other members to be able to ask questions but let me just note for the record how disturbing it was the bashir visited beijing in late june and rather than ensuring he was apprehended and sent to the hague where he ought to be held to account, nothing of the sort happened. he was treated as a great man and secondly, erred on in turkey refused to listen to e.u.
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request when bashir visited ankara. again there should have been an arrest made and this man prosecuted for genocide. >> mr. chairman last year kenyan and i graded his new constitution and the u.s. government had a lot to do with bringing that constitution and mr. bashir was the main story. his residence in nairobi kenya so he is showing up all over the place and nobody seems to be concerned about his arrest warrant. >> thank you. mr. payne. >> thank you very much, and i couldn't agree more that the international criminal court i think is a great institution, however we know that it is very difficult to have a court without having an enforcement mechanism and of course that is
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a very weak part of the international criminal court. at one time it was thought that it's a cold being an organization police throughout europe anyway could perhaps serve as an enforcement arm, but the question is how do you apprehend the criminal? in our country without police, we would have no use for courts. but i do believe that we should continue to support the international criminal court and try to really work on ways to strengthen it, at least these criminals are being indicted. they know that this indictment stands over their head. they know where they can go but they know that 90% of the places they cannot go, and i think that
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time will take care of mr. bashir. dr. deng, with the arrangement that was supposed to be made on the areas in dispute, i think that unfortunately as i indicated to when independence came from britain creates the situation because that map is still being used as the borders, and as we saw in kashmir region between india and pakistan once again the british left in unincorporated area and that is to be determined in the future. as we know, in kashmir there is still fighting going on between pakistan and india over that area. so i certainly have a real
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concern that of course self kordofan and the blue nile under the map and the agreement, although they were supported -- supportive of splm and preferred to be a part of the south, the map is drawn them into the north. now, could you tell me what -- i read it but what type of an agreement was supposed to be enforced in blue nile, in southern kordofan, to work on a way of having a government? there were supposed to be an integration of the military also with the splm with the forces in
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that area. could you just explain what the special group that was supposed to handle this was supposed to do? >> thank you for the question. i think it is a clear-cut issue on what we have agreed with the negotiation is for the parties to -- -- was set up and there was a commitment by the parties to ensure that that committee
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did not move very well and what happened was we should stick to the amicable dialogue of finding a peaceful settlement in the disputed border between the north in the south, not the nuba mountain in the blue nile. if we fail to agree in those areas we should resort to arbitration. for the nuba mountain and southern blue nile it was after the incident happened, an agreement was signed mediated by the african union, and under the auspice of president mbeki and the agreement was first that we should have a cease-fire. second, we should move for dialogue and discussing what to do in the southern mountains and blue nile. they were pushing for the argument that there was no way you can disarm these people.
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the people who fought a political war and they accepted that agreement to ensure that the consultation is conducted. ..
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>> the other one is that the whole date about what -- debate what is going to happen with the news space after the decision of the south. there's two parts, and in the north and the ncp to discuss how they are going to give another space an opportunity because they are now getting into the this republic institution to be discussed by all factors. it was agreed by the deputy and the president, and then when he went there, bashir and other people rejected outright and not agreeing of the agreement that was signed, and also witnessed by the after ray can union -- african yiewn i don't -- union. it's giving an opportunity for the parties to engage and dialogue and discuss fundamental issues about the viability
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stability. >> let me ask a follow-up question. your new organization, kush, how do you see your organization being able to be of assistance and do you think that at this time your newly formed group would be able to assist in attempting to come up with resolutions, and these three disputed areas? >> at kush, we, as i mentioned earlier, we want to form a relationship with europe, people of the united states, and with africa and took southern sudan and abyei. abyei is a flash point. after the invasion of abyei, it left no time to build confidence in the north and south. that's an area not only on the north and south border, but has
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a lot of challenges, challenges of oil, conflict, and displacement. kush is trying to advocate, helping the people to advocate, and the options available now is whether abyei should tend to the south because it was part of the southern sudan in 1985 and the north or have them held within a very conducive environment, and secondly is the role of the united nations. now we have united nation -- peace keeping forces of the sudan forces on the ground, and we think we actually should discuss the role of the united nations in protection because although this force has given protection to the citizens, we know what happened in congo. you may have a good mandate, but if a word is not defined
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properly, there's a problem. what it means chapter 7 because even this force now in abyei, they were killed, and those injured were looking for the chance to be acquitted for medical attention by the sudan armed forces in abyei, so what we are seeing whether the united nation's role in abyei is not only protection to assist the return of the displaced, the number that you mentioned, and kush could help in returning these people with the choice of the people. it's imminent we see this opportunity, having mobilization on the ground because sometimes these international organization prove in most cases they can deliver. in 80% of the cases it's difficult, but with a partner and individual organizations with context and stability. this is one thing we are discussing. the final one is the building the peace at the grass root level. because we believe within the
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organization and dinka, there's relationship created and the war and they become victims. we are saying the looks of whether we can forge a peace building among the communities. this is echoing well into the nuba mountains and the southern blue nile. the role the united states is first to investigate, and if the magnitude of the investigation is really grate, then it is on the unit nations to have the possibility of the protection of the people and that's up to the government whether we can use the forces in abyei, the civilian forces, to be extended to cover the nuba mountains and the blue nile. i have a feeling united nations
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can help also in terms of assisting in the conduct of the nuba mountains and if we are afraid to get a political solution with abyei to the south. >> thank you very much, and mr. phillip, i really appreciate your courage in what you've done, the work that you've done, and i couldn't agree with you more. i was one that we were trying to get a no-fly zone a decade ago to prevent when darfur broke out, but we could not get -- as a matter of fact president bush agreed at one point to almost support the no-fly zone putting men at the bombings that continued in darfur, but i just wondered in the short time that i was left, what are some recommendations that you would like to see us do if you had the
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authority to do yourself? >> well, thank you very much, congressman payne, and i'm so grateful for your leadership on this issue, first i would point out that, you know, the intentions of what dr. luka biong said how they liberalize the party in the north and how that relates to the shows they never had the intention of delivering. in the last 12 months they staged attacks by militia that they sponsor in south sudan. it's a strategic area. it's one that the republic of south sudan, i know, is very concerned about, and it's one that the u.s. government should be concerned about as a caretaker of the cpa, and i
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think we have not dun enough really to enforce the cpa, the attempt to disarm the spla and legalize their party and so on, way ahead of any mandated requirement by the cpa was a provocation. i was very discouraged meeting with the state department and told their position was that the spla had provoked khartoum into attacking abyei, that the splamented war -- spal wanted war as much as khartoum even though we know there's war crimes taking place. they believe that both sides want war, so that really gave me a real sick feeling in the middle of my stomach. we know where the planes are that are bombing civilians, that are blowing little girls in half. they are there. it would not take much to solve
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the problem and would cost less than what we did in a place like libya. we ought to, whether or not we're prepared to do that, at a minimum, we should be in our rhetoric and moral stance siding with the victims of it. we should be demanding that the u.n. declare humanitarian emergency so that access is allowed. when i make my trip in, it's been ten years since i'd been in that situation since i enjoyed the relative interim peace like everybody else, and i was not really prepared, but it's dangerous, and as has been mentioned, there's a serious humanitarian crisis that is approaching. there are 70 ,000-90,000 people who will die in the next month to two months because the roads are closed, flights are not coming into the nuba mountains now, and so the u.s. government
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needs to have a loud voice, and, you know, with the help of advocates and churches complaining about what's happening and putting pressure on the u.n. to take action, pressure on the u.n. to start changing the way they communicate on this as well. i think at a minimum, we need to publicly differentiate between the victims and perpetrator the genocide, and there are many solutions that can come. the southern sudanese need to know we don't have a problem with them helping the northern sector of the spla, the splm. >> thank you. >> it's a threat to the integrity of their nation. >> thank you. i couldn't agree with you more. the government of sudan always tends to exacerbate a situation as they did in darfur, was a
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little squirmish between some local people and they ended up bombing for weeks, thousands to retaliate for the small incident that should not have occurred, but it did, and even with the incident of a fight that was a shot that was fired allegedly by one soldier of splm, possibly therefore in the government of sudan then comes back with overwhelming force in abyei to say that the u.n -- the splm attacked -- it was inadd vert tently gunshot went off and use that excuse to continue genocide. >> nobody is surprised in sudan by what khartoum is doing.
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it's consistent behavior, and when i was with the commander, and he was interviewed by al-jazeera, he made the point over and over again, the problem is not with nuba people, they are unified. it's not among the state or the people of abyei, even the mieria people, the problem is now there. the problem is in khartoum. that's how the government needs to look at it. understand this is not a tribal and internal conflict in the southern kardofan state. we have responsibility as the car takers to -- caretakers to enforce it. >> thank you, mr. chairman. mr. phillips, i'd like to follow-up on a couple of things you said both in testimony and with the ranking member. with regard to the humanitarian flights -- well, let me back up a minute.
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you mentioned 70,000-90,000 people would die within the next month. elaborate on that. lack of food or what -- >> well, i traveled around four countries in southern kordofan state. a lot of roads were built and you can really move around. there's 19 counties in southern kordofan state. you can correct me if my facts are wrong, but most of the nuba population is in five of those counties. that's where the ariel bombing campaign is taking place, and it's, you know, we heard bombing and planes flying over us three or four times every day, and in some places they said, you know, have a good night's sleep, but a plane never gets here before
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seven o'clock in the morning. get up before then to get to the dugout. here they bomb at nighttime by two or three o'clock in the morning, and that's why the people live in the hill hillside. there's 400,000 people spread out in the counties that are displaced from their homes. when i was in another county, there were 600 people in just a month that were wounded by the bombing and more than 150 that had died by the bombing. i visited a lot of those people in the hospital, but i saw it -- it's completely wiped out. the town is wiped out. every building is wiped out by a attacks. there are people -- the effect of the bombs is not -- most of the killing happened in kadugli in house-to-house searches.
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now they control southern kordofan state and that's how they can control it. the rest of southern kordofan state is essentially in control on the ground of the spla. the bombing is what is displacing 425,000 people, and out of those, about 25% of them are going to face serious issues related to food because the roads are cut off. there used to be commerce with the north, that's been cut off. the roads of the south is affected by swamp, and -- thank you -- it's affected by swamp this time of year, and so there's no access on the ground, and there's very little access by air because no plane wants to get shot out of the sky and there's no umbrella. going to the nuba mountains in the 1990s, there was the operation lifeline sudan. it was a red no-go area, the
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existence gave a degree of incullation from attack, and they were not using bombs in those days. now it's a much more difficult situation, a more dangerous situation for a charter company or the diocese to bring a flight in there. >> those were the organizations, the ones flying in the humanitarian flights? >> right now, the two groups that have continued to bring in flights on a very limited basis is the catholic church, diocese and the relief arm indigenous relief organization there in the nuba mountains. >> where do the planes fly into? >> well, it's very difficult. they change locations all the time, and they are running a real risk, and the pilot, for example, that took me in was
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bombed, and he said i'm not picking you up. my three day trip was a 12 day trip. the next plane that was to pick me up was diverted to go someplace eel. we were stuck until someone was willing to take a risk. that's the reality right now. it's much worse from that point of view than during the existence of the last leader. the ols needs to take action and declare an emergency at a minimum. >> thank you very much, mr. chairman, and i yield back my time. >> thank you very much. chairman wolf. >> chank, mr. chairman. i want to again thank you and mr. pape for the hearing. fundamentally -- >> is there anyone here from our government at all? aid? state department? anybody? just raise your hand. just -- anybody here from the u.n.?
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wow. anybody here from the sudan government? the embassy? this is a fundamentally evil government. they are evil, as ronald reagan said with regard to 1973, they are -- 1981, they are fundamentally evil, and until you remove bashir, this will continue. this will continue! it will not change. how long will the west pretend -- it will -- it will -- it will continue. china welcomes bashir. they give him the red carpet. i have the picture. red carpet! every market man that goes to china, you are meeted with a guy who has blood on his hands!
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the largest embassy of khartoum is the chinese embassy. they are all over the place. president bush offered them and said to them anti-aircraft material, and this administration never sent it. you take one of those plaps out of the sky, and it will change the dynamics, and yet these people are chewed up and chewed up and chewed up and chewed up. the u.n. has failed. the u.n. failed in rwanda. the u.n. failed in bosnia. the u.n. failed in darfur. they stood by an allowed 400,000 people to die. read samantha power's book, watch what was taking place in rwanda. president clinton felt bad about
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it and went to rue rwanda to apologize because the safety department was watching. what is taking place here took place in rwanda as the secretary alawed to take place and nobody did anything. read samantha power's book. china is the problem. you have to remove bashir. you have to remove bashir. he has to be removed. government change, regime change, there's no other way. it's been going on for 21 years. 2.1 million people, mainly christians, but some muslims, 200,000-400,000 people killed in darfur. u.n. and others were turning people over to be taken away. that sounds like the nazis to me. sounds like something out of a bad movie. the u.n. has failed. these are war criminals. they are war criminals.
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that's it. they are war criminals! i don't think anyone connected to this government ought to be permitted to visit the united states, period. close their embassy down and force them out. if you'reworking -- i mean -- libya is a problem because of gadhafi, syria is a problem because of bashir. compared to this -- because of the president assad -- this guy is much worse. to meet with them is incredible. they should be expelled. they should be expelled from our country, and britain -- if this was happening in southern france or southern germany, this place would be electrified. it would be wild. but it's happening in a country,
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and it's racial too. i mean, do not deny it's racial. it is racial and it is religious, and the world is standing by and allowing this to take place. the u.n. has failed, and they are failing, and i just don't want my country to fail. this administration better get some -- get some energy. step up or step down. i like it, but step up or step down. these people will be killed, and for this to take place and no one from the khartoum government should be permitted to go and if they want to get an operation, let them get it in khartoum. if they want to educate their kids, let them educate them at khartoum. no one connected to this government should be permitted to visit the west at all, and i will do anything, eni appreciate it again. god bless mr. smith and
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mr. payne and ms. burkle to be here. this is an evil government. to hear how the u.n. could have done something, hitler was an evil man. this guy is an evil man. it's an evil government, regime change, but it's time for our government to do something. not talking about troops, but just give them the ability -- are the tanks that the southern sudan government tried to bring in, where are the tanks now? they are still in kenya. they have not been allowed to come in to defend themselves. i thank both witnesses. i appreciate this thing. we should send a message to the people of the south, nuba mountains, you know, nuba mountains and the kingdom of kush is mentioned in the bible, all the way back to biblical times. i wonder how some people in this
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administration will feel when they leave and know they missed the opportunity, how bi-moon will feel, and how when a book is wrote about this, bashir should be arrested and taken to the hague and tried. again, i thank you, mr. smith and mr. payne for being the leader on this, getting it on front, and speaking truth and thank both of the witnesses for their time. >> i just thank you very much congressman wolf, and i agree 100%. these are not statistics. these are real people. you know, the only reason why they are being exterminated is because they are african, indigenous black africans.
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the only reason why they are exterminated because they don't subscribe to the same stripe of religion as khartoum, and we can't sit by and watch it happen. the president of the united states ran very strongly on this issue. he said that he supported a no-fly zone in darfur. mr. president, what are you going to do? you know it's happening. what are you going to do? >> i'm really moved on honored in seeing this committee painting such a picture of what is happening in sudan and thank you, congressman wolf, and for being a help to the people of these areas. i want to highlight why we are focusing on both issues, on the
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ground now, and it's important what could we do collectively, and especially this country? we know the difficulties that it is important that we should keep an eye on southern sudan because southern sudan is going to be a home to one of the persons committed, and that's why we say this a country that we should invest in it, and importantly consider the negotiations of peace, but i think especially the issue of war, education, and agriculture -- water, education, and agriculture as fundamentals to the region. i rely on congressman wolf when we visited with you in the oval office, and i think the capacity of the government of corp sudan is important, and whether we could use the south sudanese here in the united states,
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americans, to go back home and then to assist in building this nation, a program we feel is important so that the south sudan has americans to go and assist this government. they have difficulties, especially on the issue of loans, but this is going to be an important support to the government of southern sudan. i think important also, the whole aid assistance should increase because the way the government is seen along the border, we need more focus on military assistance. more people will be displaced, more humanitarian needs in that area. we should be able to assist. i think the whole lot of indimming nows organization and kush, we believe in it. the government decided to come out and do something different. we can help the people. this is what we are subscribing too and could be a good test with us and together with you that we could make a difference
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on the ground. thank you very much. >> thank you very much. let me -- i'll go to mr. payne for concluding remarks, but back in the mid-1990s, i chaired the first hearing ever on shadow slavery in sudan. most people who heard of the hearing and others who protested i was holding a hearing again taking bashir to task for the empowerment of shadow slavery thought it was a hearing in search of a problem that didn't exist, and we all know that's not the case, but fast forward to as recently as yesterday, i called to a counselor people add advocateing who was een slaved as -- enslaved as was his mother, he was hung upside down and pepper was rubbed into his eyes causing a near-blind condition.
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one pays for a doctor, air fare r for him to get medical treatment to give him we believe his sight. we hope the visa is approved. we have been trying for months. our side has not begin the visa yet. they were to meet today, now postponed to monday, but underscores the viciousness of bashir and his like-minded cronies who commit to slavery, continue to do so, and the u.s. department of states suggested it was not as widespread as many of us had concrete information about. almost like he was bringing forward fresh information about how this is not both sides committing things, and somehow we're just going to be the arbiter rather than realizing that there is an all-out assault on the nuba people that has to
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be stopped as quickly as possible and the u.n. security counsel and the u.s. and the african union need to be on the same page to do so. president bashir was quoted in april that he was going to use force in southern kordofan. you know, we know that, you know, this man is pathological, and i say that -- i met with him and argued with him for well over an hour, almost two hours about darfur in the mid-1990s -- 2000s i should say, and was taken by his -- he reminded me of another leader we met with on previous occasions and other dictators. there's something psychologically wrong with the individuals, and just because they have the veneer of being in charge of a state, people somehow convey that there's a legitimacy that's completely
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undeserving. we know throughout history, dictators committed huge horrific atrocities going on right now. this is an emergency hearing. we invited the u.s. department and aid. at a drop of a hat will get back here to hear from our own administration what their plans are to combat this situation. with that, mr. payne. >> thank you. let me thank you again and mr. wolf for his many years of passionate support, and it's good to have a newcomer to bring into the team, and pleased to have the interest here. i want to think back on some of the persons, probably the only thing we agreed on between congressman and myself was
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sudan. he went on his first travel to me with south sudan, and we stayed in tents and with samaritans purse, and i told him that's what a typical kodell was like. he didn't know, but later he knew and knew it was different than staying in a tent, but he and senator brown who was so strongly supported and senator frist, now senator coon from delaware who expressed strong interest, so we will continue to push. there is no respect with the government of khartoum. when president carter visited sudan with the operation, the lifeline sudan, bashir bombed the area just to let him know i'm in control, and so we've
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seen one say that bashir and his government are really too deformed to be reformed, and it was one of his statements, and i couldn't agree more. it was july 30th, 2005 when that man's life was taken. he was a very personal friend of mine. i attended the funeral. he fought for 21 years of independence for a million people displaced, 2 million people died, and he was killed 21 days after the signing of the cpa, which i attended, and when it was signed, and so we have to remember the work that he did. he really wanted a new sudan. he was really dreaming for a united sudan, but the bashir regime were afraid of his -- as a matter of fact, when he went to khartoum after the cpa was signed, the outpouring of tens of thousands of people from the
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north, muslims, people who were islamic supporters, came out to support him because they looked at him as a liberator and probably got the bashir government a little concerned that a southerner could possibly become the president in a fair election in sudan, so we have to keep the pressure on. i certainly commend congressman smith as i mentioned earlier for keeping this issue before us. we will continue to push for justice. we should have done that no-fly zone, and i agree with you to take out a few, just let them come in, don't kill anybody, could have taken all the planes out and finished them, and so now we have a different situation, but i agree with you we have to keep the pressure on. we have to support president who is struggling now to try to move
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his new nation forward, but i know with people supportive here, we'll continue to be the voice for the people of sudan. thank you. >> any final comments from our distinguished witnesses? no. i thank you so much, and we will continue this and appreciate your wisdom, your counsel, and recommendations today. the hearing is adjourned. [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations]
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>> live coverage of the senate on c-span2. >> watch online at or see them at the c-span video library. >> c-span2 has book tv on the
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weekends. listen to us on your iphones, blackberry, follow us on twitter, and join us on facebook. it's washington your way with c-span. >> created by cable and provided as a public service. >> now, republican ohio representative jim jordan speaks at the america's national foundation students conference in washington, d.c.. congressman jordan heads the republican committee, a large caucus in the house. this is about an hour. [inaudible conversations] >> good morning, everybody. >> good morning. >> we want to welcome c-span here this morning, and we're -- [applause] and this is going to be carried live on c-span for all our television viewers. young americans foundation is holding the conference that we
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hold each other, and the foundation teaching the principles of conservatism both on college and high school campuses. congressman jim jordan was raised in champaigne county ohio. in high school, he was a four-time state wrestling champion, received a bachelor's degree in economics from the university of wisconsin where he was twice ncaa wrestling champion. he received his masters in education from ohio state and a law degree from chaplain university. he's one of the most conservative members of commerce believing family and taxpayers rather than government knows how to make decisions with their own money. he was legislated to the committee, organization of conservative members of u.s. house of representativings. he's taking a leading role on
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cut-cap-balance pass in the house of representatives. he opposed the recent debt increasement under his chairmanship, the committee offered its own budget proposal, offered a real plan to cut gasoline costs to more use of u.s. energy and offered amendments to cut spending from appropriations bills. it's my pleasure to welcome congressman jim jordan. [applause] >> i tell every group, don't clap. you have not heard me talk yet. it's good to be with. always good to be in a room full of conservatives, especially young conservatives. guests all over -- ohio folks, too, i assume? any wisconsin? i went to the university of wisconsin. what about mad madison, win
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wisconsin? look, i'm just going to talk about some general principles and what i call basic challenges. this is basically a message to give to anybody, but then i'll save time for questions to talk about policy and you can yell at me. i tell every group i speak to, look, you all pay my salary. you can ask any question, yell at me, we have a wonderful thing in america called the first amendment. you can exercise that here in just a few minutes. let me walk through five challenges i think -- and this is the message as old as the hills, but it's important to understand and especially in this point of history that we face the challenges we do in this country. five things i challenge anyone to implement their lives. one, set goals. i learned a long time ago, you can't get anywhere if you don't know where you are going. it's amazing to me, and i don't have all the answers at 47 years
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old and four kids, i guess you learn a few things, but i know that there's a lot of folks who meander throughout life without knowing what they want to accomplish, what to do, what the goals and objectives are. if you are going to accomplish anything of meaning and significance, know what it is first. realize what your talents and skills are and set goals. second challenge is one that's more important because there are a lot of folks who set goals, but people are not willing to do the work necessary to achieve anything of meaning and cig caption. the second chance is be a disciplined person. i learned a long time ago, hard work does gnat -- not guarantee success, but it improves chances. when you think of what it takes to accomplish anything of significance is the willingness to be disciplined, have a disciplined lifestyle. i had a coach and teacher and high school, my background is in the sport of wrestling.
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when i was young back in grade school, i knew what he i was going to do in 2nd grade. i was going to be middle line backer for the pittsburgh steelers. i grew up in the 70s and could name every player, and my favorite guy was the middle line backer which is what i wanted to do. i quickly learned that i've 5'7 on a good day and football would not be my game. it was the support of wrestling. we had a teacher and coach at our high school, taught chemistry and physics, toughest teacher and coach in ohio. he passed away a few years ago. super guy. he talked about discipline every single day. i mean, no exaggeration. every stinking day he talked
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about this. jordan, you want many my class? it's chemistry and physics. you have to prepare the night before, have questions, be prepared to participate in class. you have to do homework, study. every day. the wrestling room it was worse. you want to be good? self-discipline. every day he talked about it. i was sick of hearing about it because he sounded like my dad. he had a great definition of this discipline. this qoak is in our wrestling room. discipline's doing what you don't want to do when you don't want to do it. basically that means doing things coach's way when you want to do it your way. doing things the right way when you want to do them the convenient way. discipline's doing things the tough way, not the easy way. there was a message -- i like to hear it, but it's so true. think about the history of this great country, people doing things the right way, hard way, tough way, that's the american
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way. it's one of the things that made us the greatest in addition in history. being disciplined enough to do what you have to do to get to the goal is so darn important. the third challenge i tell folks is be positive. you know, hang around negative people and positive people. negative people drive you crai sigh. they always say you can't do something. be positive, you live in america for goodness sake. be positive, it's the greatest country in the world. positive people get things done and fun to be around. when you think about conservatives we should be positives too, we have the truth on our side. i'm a conservative, and i'm not mad about it. that's the approach you want. have a positive attitude. is makes such such a difference in everything we do. positive people motivate other people to do things of significance as well. you know this one; right?
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you know the old story when the israelites were against the philistine giant, who will fight goliath, their response was we can never defeat him. david said, he's so big, i can't miss. why can't i accomplish that? for me, i was assistant wrestling coach, never involved in politics, race opens up in 1994, never done anything in politics, not even involved with the party, and i decided i was going to run for state representative. where i'm from in western ohio, you win the primary, you win the general, mostly a primary fight. i remember talking to some of the republican party leaders in our home counties, three county rep district, 115,000 in ohio
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state representative district, i talk to the party leaders saying i'm thinking about running for state representative. they said, well, you're a nice young guy, but take a hike, come back in 15 years. this two-term county commissioner is going to clean your clock. i said, oh, really? i thought, well, thanks for the advise, but we'll see what happens. that's why they play the game on friday, there's one team favored, but sometimes the underdog wins. we worked hard, had pro-life people, home schooled people, people who don't like the government taking their money and telling them what to do people, and all folks helping us out knocking on doors raising $17,000 -- i forget the number, but we thought it was a million bucks, and we beat the participants off the guy. we department know any better. sometimes ignorance is good, you don't know you are to lose, and
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good things happen. we were able to win the race. when i ran for state senate with the distinction in 2000 and ohio at that time having the most expensive state primary in the history of ohio, two reps running for the state senate seat. my opponent was a 20-year vet ran of the house, in house leadership, he was endorsed by the governor, congressman boehner, and a state senator number two in the senate who was leaving the seat endorsed him. no one gave us a chance. i woke up and said, honey, you're going to stick with me. she said, i'll stick with you. [laughter] it was one of the days where i remember waking up saying i hope they all endorse my opponent because we're running against the establishment. we did the same thing, knocked on doors, worked our tails off, and we were able to win. when people say you can't do
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something, just don't believe them. if you are willing to work hard, you got a positive attitude, all things can happen to you especially when you live in a country that we live in. the fourth thing is this, a little more time with this because it's important. embassy braes and -- embrace and defend the values that make the country special in the first place. there's certain values that make this the greatest place. never be afraid to defend them. how many of you remember the story of grady, a serviceman shot in bosnia? amazing or deal. read about him. it's probably -- i don't know how long ago it was now, maybe 10-12 years ago, i'm guessing? he was shot down, survive the in the wild using his skills, ultimately rescued and brought to safety, and when he was brought to safety, there was the
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microphones and the media wanted to interview, ask him questions, hear about this amazing or deal he was through. at the microphone, and i happen to catch this interview, and he said three things, three statements that captured what life is all about, what america's all about, and, again, 29-year-old member of the united states military capturing it in such a way. he said first of all, i want to thank god. it's a miracle i'm here today. second, i want to thank my family. i'm paraphrasing, but something to this effect, he said i want to thank my family because it was while i was out there that i thought about them, i knew they were thinking and praying for me. knowing they were doing all of that, helped motivate me to do what i had to do to make it. i really want to thank my family, third he said, i want to thank the guys who saved me. they are the real heros. i want to thank my fellow
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servicemen who saved me. they are the true heros. i thought about that after he finished it and said this guy's figured it out, what life is about. referencing god talked about faith, central faith is on a personal level, god of the universe, lasting implications. we understand that, but also on the corporate level, how central faith has been to the american experience. you know, we had this past spring our oldest boy wrestled for the badgers and competing in a tournament in philadelphia. we went to independence hall between rounds. go in there and think about what the guys did when they started this grand experiment in freedom we call america. picture where jefferson sat, adams sat, and you can almost hear the debate when you are in there, and that these guys put everything on the line to start a place where liberty mattered
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and the document they drafted and voted on in that room, we hold these truths to be self-evident all created equal endowed by our creator, with equal rights life, liberty and pursuit of happiness. they had faith with this america. when scott referenced his family, he was getting at this basic con cement that -- concept that the family is the institution that in my judgment ultimately determines of the strength of our entire culture and society. the strength -- i think about just, you know, the impact that my parents had on my life, and one of the things you guys are all young, not married with kids, but one of the things you learn, my wife and i were married in college, have four children now, and what we learned when the good lord blessed us with kids is when you have kids, you appreciate your parents more. it's funny how that works, you know? you don't realize when you are
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young the sacrifices and things they do. i love the line that mark twain -- he had a lot of good ones, captured important truths in a humorous way, but talking about his relationship with his dad and how it evolved over time, and said when i was 10 years old, my dad knew everything. when 20, he didn't know anything. now that i'm 30, i'm surprised how much he's learned in ten years. that's how it works. the older you are, the more you appreciate your parentings. the first institution the good lord put together before the church and state, there's the family. the strength of that is important. i try to keep that in mind as a policymaker, every vote i cast, things i do, i ask the filter question -- does it benefit family. if it's a yes to that, be for it, if it's strengthening that institution, that strengthens our country, and that's something grady knew and said.
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finally referencing the military, i think he was getting at the word we associate with our great country, and that's the word freedom. this is unique for our country. it's unique in history. our military has always stood for freedom, and most militaries throughout most of history have stood for tyranny and oppression, but not in the united states of america. the united states military stood for freedom and liberty, not just for americans, but countless number of people around the planet. scott talked about faith, family, and freedom. we want our country to be strong and we need to embrace and defend, and it's not easy to defend them. i mean, look, if you're are a conservative today, the press makes fun of you. i get it all the time. it's the nature of this business. you know, they just particularly the national press, you know, they never see things the way normal folks do.
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you read kal thomas? syndicated column, great writer. there's a difference between the "new york times" and the way folks in western ohio see things. i get up every morning, read the bible and the "new york times" to see what each side is up to. [laughter] there's truth to that. the national media doesn't see things how we do and they make fun of us when we fight for things that really matter. understand that. this leads me to my last point, and then i'll take your questions. be willing to take the risk, be willing to put it on the line. if you got a goal, be willing to fully commit to the goal and do the work necessary to get to the goal, be positive when it's tough, defend the values that matter. it's always going to require risk. i learned a long, long time ago to accomplish anything of meaning or significance requires a full commitment. when you make a full commitment there's the risk that you might
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fail, but you got to take it anyway. it's just the nature of the way the good lord made this place. be willing to take the risk. understand that's how it is. i'll finish with this story. how many of you have seen "char "charriots of fire?" it's a true story. in the early 1920s british athletes training and preparing to compete in the 1924 olympic games of track and field. you focus in on two in particular, both talented individuals, both the kind of guys, people you want young people to emulate. one is a missionary to china in the end, and both are gold medalists winning the 400 and 200 meter dash. the best scene is prior to o
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olympic games, college aged athletes, both sprinters, both undefeated, fastest guys in europe. they deep down had to know being competitors if there's a race between little and abraham, who will win? who is the fastest? this is the nature of being a competitor. you got to know. they put together a track meet in europe. this particular day, this was the sporting event to be at. this was the super bowl, the final, the thing to watch. came time for the 100 meter dash, stadium full, fire the gun, have the race, and it's little first, abraham second. track meet's over, stadium is mostly empty, next scene is abraham in the stands looking at the empty track, a young lady beside him, one he would later marry, looks down the track, replaying the race in his mind over and over, and every time it's the same result, little
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first, abraham second. little first, he's second. it's driving him nuts because he never lost. he's going through this, the lady asks a rhetorical question, why the long face? so you lost. you got second. you won the otherrings. what's the big deal? there's a pause, and he terned to her and said, i don't run to lose. i run to win. if i can't win, i apt ain't going to run. he's going to quit. it's not worth the pain. if i can't win, i'm not going to do it. it hurts too bad to lose. there was another pause, and she said the best line of the show, the best line of the whole movie. she said, if you don't run, you can't win. that is so important. if you're never willing to get off the sidelines and get into the game, if you are never willing to get out shadows and twi light, you will never
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accomplish anything that matters not only for yourself, but for other people and for your nation as well. always be willing to take the risk. it's tough. it's not easy. in the end when you accomplish those things that really matter and you help other people along the way during the journey, it's all worth it. that's something that this country has always done, and we need young people who understand that and keep doing it so we will remain the greatest nation in history. thank you, all, very much. [applause] all right. your chance to yell at a congressman. step up there and fire away. don't you normally come to the mic? there we go, the first guy. [laughter] are you laughing because he asks the question every time? [laughter] oh, my goodness. we have people like this in congress every time there's a mic, there's certain people who go to the mic every time. it drives you crazy.
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[laughter] go ahead. >> hello? okay. my question for you is, i, you know, kind of straying away from the positive attitude, a negative question. how do you decipher the difference between risk and being naive? >> yeah, i guess i see where you're headed here. look, you want to educate yourself, know what the policy issue instead of rushing in there and being goofy and saying crazy things, be prepared. i try to in my comments talk about, you know, being disciplined, doing the hard work, all of those things. you got to do that before you shoot your mouth off or something along those lines. that's important just to do your
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homework and be prepared. that's, i think is a prerequisite for anything you want to accomplish. >> thank you. i loved your speech. >> thank you. .. in the public policy area in the elective office but for me it made a huge difference. what i was involved in and still a.m. and we have two boys who are the very active and one russell in college and the other will be a senior high school.
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for me the support i am in whistling compostable matt, your opponent steps on the mat, you can do more to him it doesn't get any more basic than that and i just always loved to compete. it's just part of america. americans love to compete. there is a great book. read the book, arthur brooks book called the battle. he had the american enterprise institute, and he references his book about how the rugged type and we can go back to the people who started this. they left european got on a boat and sail across the ocean with nothing to go after the golden dream and the individual to we are and for me i found that sports are in competition setting the goal and i just loved it. >> thank you.
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>> i'm in the university of missouri and was wondering what can we do to get ever for the college students interested paying attention to economics and politics. scientifically what happens is the first paycheck is when they get interested because they see how much money. i always tell young people, high school class of someone had a summer job and paid taxes i call it the paycheck test. you get your paycheck and up here is what you earned and down here is the government lets you keep and the journey across the check is where the government rips you off, and my job as a conservative member of congress when i was in the state house and senate to keep their it off to a minimum there are things the government needs to spend money on. the federal level we are supposed to have a national defense and certain things we are supposed to use tax dollars for. but the founders understood the basic premise the smaller government is the greater
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freedom is and expanding liberty, and we need to keep that in mind. so, typically what happens for most people is when they get their first paycheck and see how much government takes and every tax they have to pay local, water, electric tax, whatever tax it is and federal taxes and on and on, that's when you see. as i said i went to college by major was rustling but you are supposed to get a degree so i wound up getting one in economics and i can't remember the professor's name, but it was my sophomore year you're supposed to declare a major. taking this macroeconomics class i pocket and this is the university of wisconsin madison, as left wing as it gets. i walk in and this professor gives a lecture on macroeconomics 301 or whatever
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it was and tells us he is a christian guy and conservative and i like he is the bravest guy on campus. he must have tenure to make that statement, but i paid attention and i liked economics and i wound up majoring in that just because the one professor i had in my sophomore year. >> thank you. >> good morning. i from lone star college. i know you can't give, anybody can give a form of definite, but in your opinion call long do you believe it is going to take to finally get government spending under control? >> it's hopefully not too much longer because we don't have too much longer. you've had several speakers but let me give you a couple numbers without poring you to death, 14 trillion-dollar debt declined the highest deficits each year over a trillion dollars, possibly 1.6 this fiscal year.
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the one that gets to me as we are spending 200 million plus this year on interest alone and someone tell me what interest rates are like right now. are they low or the height? record low, historical low. you can't go any lower. they are going to go up. the spending path we are on and if you assume a modest increase in interest rates which is a fair assumption let's hope they don't go like but a modest increase in interest rates on the spending cap alone the 200 million plus interest right now serve as the debt within ten years we will be paying more on interest than we currently spend on the national defence. someone tell me if you are as a country spending more to service your debt and you are to defend your nation how you can maintain and sustain that model. you can't. so the window of time to fix this is closing rapidly and i just think we can't emphasize
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this enough. we've got to bring spending down. the one fight we got through in washington was over the debt ceiling and i was one of the folks who wound up voting no simply because -- [applause] let me say this. there were some good things to the speaker's credit, no tax increases which was great and we actually did cut spending a little bit which if you raise the debt ceiling is the band plays on you keep spending so actually there were some changes in the debate but when you think about the fact that really all we did was reduced spending $21 billion the first year which is the only year that congress had authority because the subsequent congress can change if a law we have to do more. we are in a difficult situation. let's think about this. $14 trillion national debt, we increase the debt ceiling by 2.4 trillion we are reducing
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spending 21 billion next fiscal year so put it in terms we all understand. some young person no one in this room but a young person maxes out their credit card of $14,000, hits the limit. goes to the bank and says i need more and knew the bank says we will give you 2400 more what you have to promise us over the course of the next year you're going to spend 21 less than we spend. 14 trillion we are going to cut 21 billion next year. while it existed in the right direction, the direction we want to move, the magnitude of the problem is so big we have got to change spending and that means all of government, all of government is going to change. >> thank you. >> i'm a student at the university of texas san antonio. first i want to thank you for all of your pro-life work and the impact that it's making. what do you think are the major steps to truly promote a culture
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of life? i think technology has been our friend and we can see that we are talking about human beings and the founders understood this. the guice that started this experiment we call america, the greatest experience and freedom ever, they got it right and when they talk about life, liberty, pursuit of happiness, you've heard this before but it is always worth repeating. it's interesting the order and the document and started all, the document i would say next to scripture is the best word put on paper. life, liberty, pursuit of happiness. you can't pursue your goals and dreams that have meaning and significance if you first don't have freedom and you never have freedom of the government doesn't protect the most fundamental right, the right to live so that's why, that's why
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this is a fundamental thing and one of the reasons i got interested in politics to begin with. i tell folks i never intended to be in politics. i was going to be wrestling coach forever and help student athletes get to their goals on the wrestling mat. but you get married, had kids come see the government taking your money and insulting your values and i said i'm dumb enough to run for state representative i'm going to try and to see what happens and i wound up winning it. so it was those kind of things that helped motivate the early on to run for office >> good morning. i'm of buffalo, new york. you mentioned your start in six politics. would he recommend to us starting in the local politics to prepare for a larger stage? >> the first thing i ran for was the state representative and no one gave me a chance so if you want to run for congress and think it works out and you're
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25, you've got to be 25, but if you want to do that or run for school board and make a difference that's between you and the good lord and your family. and again, one of the earlier questions, not being naive but knowing dillinger of the land and the score before you go there little bit just depends. it just depends. like i said, people told me i couldn't win and sometimes it's good when they tell you that, it gets you fired up. so, i don't know your circumstance and situation. what i will tell you if you've done the research and you think you can do it, don't let people tell you you can't. i'm sure you have had the experience of people tell you i will slow down and about doing the work necessary so to me that's it but setting goals and working hard. >> thank you. >> maggie from the university of new jersey giving it i was wondering since the debt doomsday has passed its converse
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was going to continue working on that and focusing on that right now or what is the next big thing that you are going to focus on? >> it's really all that congress has been doing. the continuing resolution but the budget fight a few months ago over this year's completing the work from last year's budget that we went into the debt ceiling fight and come back in september and go right into finalizing the budget for next year so it's all about the money and that's appropriate and it's so bad. we have to spend our time. i would argue this we got a lot of policy is wrong. in fact the world as a dangerous and chaotic place all you've got to do is watch the evening news but was less dangerous and
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chaotic. the world as a better place and it's tough to be, tough to remain the military and diplomatic leader if you are not also the economic leader tends to be if you look historically tends to be to go hand-in-hand so tremaine the economic leader you have to have the right fiscal policy and regulatory policy, the right energy policy and tax policy and we are wrong on all of it. we don't have an energy policy that uses the resources the good lord blessed us with and we should and fiscal policy we know what a mess that is we saw the debate over the last three or four weeks on the debt ceiling and where they are. the tax policy. we have a freshman colleague from green bay wisconsin and sitting on his desk is a copy of the tax code.
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on his coffee table to remind him washington, to simplify the tax code sophos to the economic growth and greater job creation and we got the wrong policy and the wrong regulatory policy. we regulate the small business. i have two friends of mine, very successful manufacturing back home and i will remember this forever, she said i hate being an employer and the reason i hate being an employer is all the stuff you make us do. government, all the things they have to do when they take the risk of hiring someone and providing the job. so we have to have the right regulatory policies of the don't so it's not so difficult for them to be an employer so those are the things we have to focus on so we can remain the economic power and be the leader of the world and more freedom and graceful place when we do that.
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>> thank you. >> i'm from the university of tennessee and i think you for coming here and i liked how you touched on the positive. i'd like to know how you kept being positive when the left is constantly attacking you and furthermore what advice would you give to young women who want to get in politics because the left attack women more and how to use the positive through that? >> again, just focus on the fact in spite of the challenges we have in this country it is the greatest nation ever. focus on the fact positive people are the ones who accomplish things in life. just focus on those basic and then stay strong. prepare. if you see some folks in politics when they engage in debate with the left we can win. again it comes back to this you have to be willing to do the work necessary so that you are
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prepared when it counts. but what happens is if you set the goals and do the work you need to do when it comes time to actually get the job done will have the confidence it takes to perform under pressure. it's as basic. do the work, develop confidence, confidence allows you to compete and do things under pressure and there's all kinds of examples in the sports world at the same time and politics wants to debate or whatever. suggest those basic things you instinctively know. >> from george washington university my question is the left often says how hypocritical the right is, some spending so much money on our national defense and military budget. so how do you think that the right can show, can streamline that budget and cut down on the waste that is happening? >> i would disagree slightly with the premise.
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after world war ii we were spending 38% of gdp on the national defence. now it's less than 4% on national defense. we are spending too much on the national defence i think is just not consistent with the fact. second, we are supposed to spend tax dollars on the national defence. if you look that we probably shouldn't be spending as much money on that we shouldn't be the national defence is not one of them. that's where we are supposed to spend taxpayers' money. it's the four most responsive to become defense of the homeland. so, now are there areas in the pentagon budget and the defense budget where you probably have some excess and you can trim things back? certainly come and we should be willing to do that with this idea that the left always wants to target the left first and everything else leader is exactly, it should be the opposite. let's look at the rest of the
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government first, and then by the we've there are some savings we can achieve in the national defence, we should do that but that shouldn't be the first place that we are looking particularly when we think about the fact we are involved now in iraq and to some degree involved in libya and everything else we do around the world we have to be careful. >> , jordan, appreciate you coming to speak to us to read my name is willson some, university of arkansas -- >> you have a voice for the radio, too. [laughter] [applause] >> ayman in turn of the foundation this summer and my question for you is as a supporter of cut cap and balance i appreciate all the work you did for that and i was a little bit surprised to see criticism comes from the right on the proposal. i'd like your analysis for places like "the wall street journal" editorial board saying it would lead to tax increases or judicial activism to decide what is a tax on the amendment or when you look at things like
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a wartime exception with that would constitute. what is your of response to that? >> they were wrong and we were right. there are valid concerns but that's why you have to draft it right. we think we would certainly look at drafting it appropriately, correctly, in a way that safeguarded some of those concerns, safeguard against the concerns you raised but let's cut to the basic premise. everybody has a balanced budget requirement. every family, every small business, every township, every county, every city, every state. the only entity that doesn't have a balanced budget requirement is by the way that one that has a 14 trillion-dollar debt. so this idea that we don't need it which is one of the statements the president made like really how can you say -- the last 40 years has proven we definitely need it. so to me it is the one to use an
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overused term it's the one game changer when you think for word that will frankly make a difference for your generation and even younger americans because will require the politician to do what they never want to do, only spend what the taken. understand the basics. everyone likes to spend money. politicians to spend other people's money for goodness sake so there is no limit put on the largest coin to keep spending. it's the nature. and who comes to talk to us most time? when i was in the state senate there are 33 state senators and control. during the state budget time the line up outside the office and say this program is wonderful. the other part you have to find out and finally i said to one of our staff went to the taxpayers talk to me because it is always the people that got their hand out the the vested interest in hanging out in columbus or washington getting the tax code
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were many sent to their program. so, politicians until you say no, time out. we are not planning any more we are not going to solve it. so obviously we have seen that and particularly the last three years but the truth is even the party that i belong to spend too much money. the fact they spend too much money this administration was taken to a whole new level so we have to have it. and i think some arguments from the conservatives were we just can't get it done but my argument is if you always follow the conventional wisdom you will never accomplish anything that really matters. of the founders of to listen to the conventional wisdom there wouldn't be the united states of america. so, sometimes you have to say look we are going to fight and i would also make the point if we can't really challenge the president now there's a 42% approval rating. serve your plan and let's see which one wins.
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it's tough in the long shot, sure. sometimes they win and frankly when you look how serious the situation is, why not engage the american people in the debate over the cut kept in balance plan and his plan which they never put on the table when he is a 42% approval rating. >> i am an interview foundation and will be starring law school at michigan this fall. >> congratulations. >> my question for you you touched on earlier about how you are not support of the plan and is this something sanyun you think something like that is typical of what our congress or the senate is going to come up with in the future again or how likely do you think a real conservative solution -- >> it is divided government. it's not -- i just got talking about the plan that we were pushing and the speaker
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supported when it went through the house of representatives. i understand that's tough. it was a long shot to get it done i thought there was still a chance it could happen, and the speaker's proposal he put forward again was good that it actually cut spending to it never happens much around this place, have to reduce spending and kept the tax increases out of any type of agreement so i appreciate the speaker's job and i tell everyone it's got a tough job, he has to negotiate with harry reid and it's just tough so i appreciate that. i just the magnitude of the problem is such we need to try to do something bigger, and that's why we supported the plan we did, the cut cap and balance. we thought it made sense. if you look our plan had bipartisan support when it came out of the house it was the only plan until the final deal was put together and the other thing i would say is one thing i'm
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convinced of is americans don't want deals, they want a solution. they are tired of washington deals and would like an american solution so we actually felt like our plan was the one with bipartisan support and the one plan that would prevent a downgrade. the one plan that fixed the problem and that the american people support it as evidence of the poll 62% of the american people said cut spending in the short term and cap as a percentage of gdp moving forward and then have a balanced budget amendment sent to the states for ratification. from the political standpoint, if we have a balanced budget out there and the states are working on this to ratify this that is a good thing to be talking about. that is the ground that is good for conservatives to talk about why conservatism mixed sense of the talk about the balanced budget amendment to the constitution.
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>> from the university of wisconsin you talked about having a strong relationship with god. how did you come to recognize what his plan was for you? >> i think it's the good lord actually causes you to be interested in things and you have certain skills or talents or wherever they may be and you are focused on those areas so for me i started wrestling at 9-years-old and thought i would forever. a couple things happened for me and it's time to either be a head coach somewhere or to do something else, and i was interested in politics and i thought something about a campaign, that is as close to a wrestling match as it gets so i just got sort of interested in the position when it opened up and we all try to figure out
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where, what are my goals, what career, you just sort of figure it out based on the skills you have yet the interest. she would tell me i can't believe you are in politics i never thought it would be in politics. from florida you mentioned politicians should work hard and my question is what is more important for the position to have appropriate education or government in the current affairs.
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>> i want to make sure understand. what's more important, educational background or being up to speed on current events. i would say probably both the public's is frankly the one you don't have to have in the education for. i shouldn't say it that bluntly but you don't have to have a degree in this area or that area. you have to have a college degree. if you can tell folks back home you get 50 people and know how you design your petition and paid $85 i think was the filing fee and get 50% plus one to vote for you you are now the state representative said that's the beauty of america. the people get to decide. they may not care if you have a degree in science or political science 10-degree at all.
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but they probably do care about is what they believe in. the things they now make a difference for their country or community. that is what they care about coming and i think most of the time they wanted send someone, remember it as a representative democracy. they send their member of congress to look out for their interest and they send him or her to make judgments on the issue is based on the effect of the hearing and all the information they get the they don't forfeit their ability to influence the member of congress and particularly in the house of representatives because we are supposed to be the body closest to the peoples of a wonderful balance we have the may want to send someone who has no advanced education or maybe they don't. so are think more about what you believe in and how you are going to fight for the things the families and taxpayers. >> thank you very much.
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>> you bet. last four. okay. i didn't know how long i was supposed to stay. pretty boring like. [laughter] another politician, just what i wanted. okay. go ahead. >> i'm a graduate from the college of illinois. i was wondering if there's a plan that will fix the debt quick enough and cut cut to the balance that cuts 4 trillion. the cbs states we will have over 10 trillion racked up in debt on the current protection. is the cut cap and wilentz quick enough to fix the coming interest payments and the debt problems in the near term? cutting 4 trillion out of 10 trillion isn't really fixing the problem. >> the truth is no one knows for sure but smart people say you have to get it moving in the right direction so we are on a crazy pat now.
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you have to begin to turn it and bend the curved so that over time you can get the balance. i would argue that is what the budget we passed in the house of representatives does sponsored by congressman ryan. we as the committee offered a more conservative budget and got the balance in nine years. the balance in like 26 and the left says that's crazy. 26 years to balance your budget? that's crazy. most americans say i talk to folks back home and 26 years, what are you guys doing? but the truth is the president's proposal just spends forever and obviously you can't do that so you've got to turn it and then begin to deal with the cost drivers in the budget which are you've got to save medicare and change it to save it. people will say we can't save medicare because the republicans went in. the people whot


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